[5th Quest Entry] Love For Fire

Here it is, my 5th quest entry finally finished: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B21v...?usp=drive_web

What I have tried to do here is strike a balance between being very authentic to the original, as well as have some new things to keep it fresh. The later levels start to introduce some different concepts and puzzles to keep things interesting. All the new items and enemies are variations on existing ones, though some of them you will have to figure out their weaknesses.

Feel free to provide any feedback, the quest should be bug free but it's always possible I missed something. Also need some judging if the difficulty is fair or not. I've beaten Armageddon Quest and most of Liberation of Hyrule (subtle brag), so it's hard for me to get the sweet spot where it will be challenging, but most other people can beat it too. Pay attention to what the hint guys tell you, and explore. Also maybe have some paper ready for the later levels ;) If you're feeling really gutsy, there is a magic key available, though it's completely optional, there are enough keys in the level to finish without getting it.

Only thing not working that I know of at this point is that I tried to edit the super wand's damage to be 4, but it only does 2 damage for magic, but does 4 when you strike something with it (let's face it you didn't equip the wand to use it as a melee weapon right?).

Just downloaded, played it for a few minutes.

I was kinda surprised at the beginning, but overcame that soon enough. I looked around for the first level, and earned some rupees in the process. Found enough to buy the candle, so then I went looking further. I found 2 heart containers, and the white sword, and level 5. Also, several DRCs and some secret money.

I'll pick up later, that's all the time for today.

EDIT: Played again today. Found and completed level 1. Almost done with level 2, but when I went to exit it, the entrance won't let me leave. It needs a side warp there.

Thanks fixed the level 2 bug and the wand issue, reuploading the fixed version

I beat level 2, and went around exploring. I found levels 7, 4, and 8. Still searching for level 3. Finding secrets hasn't been too hard, as they're mostly where you remember them from the first or 2nd quest. But since I haven't seen level 3, maybe I'm not looking in the right place. I went in level 4, but it ate me up and spit me out, so I'm going to keep looking for the 3rd level.

Did you mean levels 5,4 and 8? You shouldn't be able to get into Level 7 yet. Yeah Level 3 is somewhere most will probably overlook, but accessible from the get go. Interestingly enough someone else playing found Level 3 and couldn't find Level 1.

I'll double check it, I know I found 4 and 8, maybe it was 5 instead of 7 though. :)

This is my current favourite. Currently in level6. The dungeons are interesting and fun to play. The difficulty feels about right, and progresses nicely. The item progression is good, and you'll be using all your items a lot more. The new enemies and boss variations are excellent.

Thanks for the kind words. It was exactly the kind of things I was looking for. Were you able to finish it?

going back to it tonight. playing a handful of these quests.

i noticed you updated on PureZC. i'm in level8, should i be updating to the newest version?

edit: i spoke too soon.

bug: lvl8, link doesn't hold up the iitem in the left eye.

Hmm that's tricky, I feel like link only really holds things up when you find them in item cellars, though an exception can be made for that item. I'll probably fix it in the thread version but I won't re-upload to pure unless there's something else that needs fixing. I moved a heart container slightly and replaced the wall masters in levels 7-9 with stronger versions to give them a little more bite.

Voting is now open for this quest. Vote for as many categories as you please, but be sure to vote before tax day!

Also, please post in this thread stating which categories you selected and explaining why you picked those categories.

Through 1. That sword thing was mean: You probably should've given the Boomerang so the player wasn't defenseless honestly. I looked all over the Overworld before I went to the First Quest's Lv. 1's entrance.

Through 1. Dungeon not too bad.

-James

i selected didn't complete. not because i couldn't. i just got tired of playing through these quests. i'm at level9. still my favourite, with the exception of the compass joke at the beginning.

Through 2, seems to have broken enemy groups and seems to play on a "power curve" for enemies like New Quest, going to hurt on NES authenticity points..

Edit: Through 3, thank god for potions early. Blue Wizzrobes with 6 Hearts are NASTY, NASTY, NASTY!

Edit: Got keylocked thanks to the Boomerang order, had to break into 5 to get a key. Maybe you should put the Boss Key at the Boomerang area.

Edit: Bugs in 5. I can't get the StepLadder. There seems to be a marking where I need the Whistle, and the wall by the arrow has no way of getting in. I'm stuck, I can't get either the Ladder or the Whistle.

-James

I'll probably get rid of the compass gimmick in the beginning. I thought it would be fun, and that most people would naturally look where the original Level 1 is as part of places to start exploring.

As for Lv2, I've played New Quest, but not following what you're saying about the power curve idea.

Level 3 actually had a couple of more blue wizzrobes and I took them out cause I thought it was a little too difficult XD.

I will try to make a fix to Level 4. Keys are only 80 rupees in the shop so you don't need to go to Level 5 to get one, but I'll find a way to fix that.

The Whistle is not in Level 5. If you are referring to the room with the block and the single blue tile, there is another room that gives a hint as to what to do there.

Spoiler: show

The multi-colored room shows the path in which you need to push the block in the room with the single blue tile. The Stepladder is shortly after that puzzle. The Arrow points to the room where the StepLadder but you don't get in from that way.

Edit: reuploaded, swapped the boss key location with another key in Level 4 hopefully fixing the running out of keys problem. Also put the wooden sword on the origin screen,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Love For Fire

As for Lv2, I've played New Quest, but not following what you're saying about the power curve idea.

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The difference between a power-curve quest like New Quest and a Zelda NES quest is that on the NES, you were limited to what type of enemies you could have at a time in a dungeon, mostly due to memory restraints.

A power-curve quest like New Quest starts with the weaker enemies like Red Darknuts and works its way up to Blue Wizzrobes and other custom enemies, generally making them show up by their power and difficulty.

A Zelda-style NES quest has set enemy groups in their quests. Most people are ignoring bosses and making 9 a megamix, but generally, the three enemy groups from the NES are:

Anywhere: Keese, Gel, Zol
1. Goriya, Rope, Stalfos
2. Darknut, Gibdo, Pols Voice
3. Vire, Like-Like, Wizzrobe

Generally, you have the everywhere enemies, then 2-3 types of enemies that generally appear in the dungeon. If you're breaking it down for the 1st Quest, Level 1, 2, and 7 use the Goriya Enemy Group; 3, 5, and 8 use the Darknut enemy group; and 4, 6, and 9 use the Wizzrobe enemy group. If you're breaking down the 2nd Quest, 1, 3, and 8 use the Goriya enemy group; 2, 4, and 7 use the Darknut enemy group, and 5, 6, and 9 use the Wizzrobe enemy group.

You will probably not be graded so harshly on having different types of bosses and megamixing 9. That would probably be considered a quest upgrade.

Also, "colors" of the enemy are not restricted either.

Also, if you kept the NES specs in mind, making a new enemy group (like Stalfos, Ghini, and Gibdos, which theme fit) probably won't hurt you as well, as long as you keep memory limitations in mind. Outside of Ghinis, I wouldn't advise using any other OW enemy in the underworld.

Hope this helps. I've been posting this and most people don't understand how this works or the memory limitations of the NES sad to say. Hopefully this gives a better explanation.

-James

On a separate note, you will get keylocked in 5 after you get the Wand. You might want to do something about that.

Edit: Another bug for you LFF. After you kill the Like-Likes east of the arrow room, the blocks do not push to open the shutter.

Edit 2: Keylocked at least twice in 6, Longbow :: scratches head ::

Edit 3: Through 6, one room I can't get to, seems to be walled on one side by blocks, other walls don't bomb or walk through, screen north and west of the "Secrets where Fairies Don't Live" clue.

-James

Ok now I see what you are talking about with the enemy sets. I did sacrifice some authenticity to make the 2nd half of the game interesting. (Enemy sets, puzzles, new upgraded items)

Level 5 room east of like likes:

Spoiler: show

Push the block to the right to match the other side

You should be able to get the Longbow first without getting key locked. I'll look more into this to see if there are routes that make it possible. To get to the room you are missing, bomb the right wall of the feed the goriya room. If you are finished with the level you don't need to go back for this it's a hint about the boss of the level.

Some notes:

Lv. 8: Upgraded Wand I can live with. Mirror Shield and Mirrorrobes, not so much. Mirror Shield kinda destroys Zelda difficulty and I don't think it has a place in NES style quests.

Edit: Never mind for the Magic Key. Thank you Gleeok for playing tips for that one!

Lv. 9: Room between the Rope Gibdos on the top row where you fight Goriyas: Push a block, door or stair does not appear.
Leave Life or Money Room: If you come in from the south you have the potential to be stuck
Zelda Room: No Zelda guy, no flags to end the game.


-James

OK, here's your review LFF:

Difficulty: 99/100

It's probably the most balanced quest I've played so far. A little ROMhackish towards the end though.

NES authenticity: 25/100
This is where you get hurt. The Fire Zols and Gels for one were never in a Zelda game. Second, the Longbow, why? Upgraded wand a little understandable, Mirror Shield a definite no-no. I didn't pick up a Fire Boomerang though, so you're lucky on that one. Also, there seemed to be no sense of enemy groups during the quest, you might want to work on this.

Fun Factor 90/100. This feels a lot like New Quest for better or worse built with today's Zelda Classic in mind. The Overworld definitely needs some work (it felt recycled too much), but the Magic Key gauntlet made you earn it. I might suggest putting something else in place of the Patra 2 and moving that to the room before Ganon for more tradition.

Overall Score: 71.3/100. It's not terrible, but I think some people definitely followed the reqs better and still put out a quality quest. To be fair this will probably burn my quest in the end too, so don't feel bad. Fun one.

-James

Haha Fire Boomerang too OP, Don't think I'll ever put that in a quest again. Glad you enjoyed playing it and I'm happy the difficulty curve worked for the most part. Also glad someone was able to get to the magic key. It's tricky to balance adding new features/enemies, yet staying truly authentic. As it was built to be considerably more difficult than 2nd quest+, I wanted to reward people for trudging through by introducing more upgraded items, without throwing in things that were completely new like the Hook-shot. Pretty much every major enemy got an upgrade, so why not us? Yeah the longbow is kind of a filler item so I have all the later levels 4+ have two items each without doing something like removing the swords/rings/blue candle from the overworld shop.

I think part of the OW was from a misinterpretation of the rules that I thought all secret entrances must remain in the same location on a screen e.g. If the right bush was the burnable one on screen X, then the right bush must be the burnable one if you still want to put a secret on screen X, though the contents can be different. That's how I was interpreting it, if that's correct I could've done more in moving bombable walls, burnable bushes, etc. Unless of course you're just referring to the actual secret locations being mostly places that were important in the earlier quests and not in more obscure locations.

Here's how I got the Magic Key:

http://youtu.be/51HPdoNWfaE

Enjoy!

-James

Nice video, and you're crazy for getting through that with the Blue Ring initially. If it looks too daunting to get don't worry, the key is optional and is more of a trophy for being a badass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Love For Fire

Nice video, and you're crazy for getting through that with the Blue Ring initially. If it looks too daunting to get don't worry, the key is optional and is more of a trophy for being a badass.

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Yeah, I am insane, both playing wise and in real life. :grad:

-James

One more bug LFF: Lanmolas shouldn't drop anything except when they're dead. This is an NES quest.

-James

Didn't catch that one with the Lanmolas thanks. How can you get stuck in the Money/Life room in Level 9 coming from the south?

I thought I already fixed the problem with Zelda O_o It's been ages since I've had to make a Zelda room. I think I was missing the flag 15

Note/disclaimer - I played the version that was modified on Dec 27 (per the Google Drive timestamp).

First off, some minor issues to report:

(1) Minor bug - In level 7, on the far east side of the level, the room that is one north of the 3 dodongos does not appear on the map.

(2) In level 6 it's theoretically possible to bypass the path to the boss key. When entering the boss key room from the west, a player could just use bombs to kill the blue darknuts. Not really a bug, but perhaps it'd be good to add another column of blue blocks to prevent clever players from taking advantage.

(3) In level 5, the warp in the SW corner makes it possible to finish the dungeon with an extra key (can be easily fixed by just warping the player back to start). Again this isn't really a bug, but I assume it's not intentional.

I managed to find all HCs except one. Care to tell me where the last one is located? Here are the ones I found in the overworld:

Spoiler: show

(1) Using the bracelet in the lost hills
(2) Where level 2 in the 2nd quest is
(3) Using the whistle in the graveyard
(4) Using the ladder where the river turns

Now my review of the quest:

Spoiler: show

This was very fun to play. You'll want to have the white sword before level 2. Level 3 is where the going can get tricky (blue wizzrobes), but there are no unfair (imo) fights - for instance, the room with two blue wizzrobes also contained a bubble, which prevented the wizzrobes from respawning. Without the blue ring, I found myself using bombs against blue wizzrobes (thankfully there's a bomb upgrade in level 3).

Note that level 3 contains goriyas, pols voice, and wizzrobes, so some NES-authenticity points get deducted for those enemy groups. For most of the remaining levels, there's lots of enemy mixing. For every quest competitor, this is going to be a delicate balance: on the one hand, less restrictive enemy groups provide a more diversified fighting experience; however, there are some quests that (imo) have managed to strike a good balance (BigJoe's and Nightmare's entries come to mind).

Some folks may feel that it's a pretty ballsy design choice to not give access to the blue ring until getting the bracelet in level 4 (nice touch to still have the bracelet under the armos btw). I sort of think/expect most of the people playing these quests can handle blue darknuts in their sleep, so level 4 is very do-able (I didn't have my first death until level 5). Whatever the winning entry is, it should (imo) be an appropriate sequel to the 3rd quest in terms of difficulty.

Pretty clever way to make the boomerang required to get the level 4 boss key. Later in the game the book is similarly required to progress (the room east of level 8's entrance).

As the old man says, level 5 basically requires the blue ring. Despite having the blue ring, the difficulty does pick up a bit here. You'll be fighting blue wizzrobes more regularly, with only a white sword. The pink stalfos with its triple swords is a nice touch (glad to not see folks not lazily slapping on the default stalfos-3 enemy). Having to dodge pols voice before getting the wand was fun. The appearance of firerobes and batrobes is starting to detract more NES-authenticity points at this point.

There are some questionable uses of keys within the dungeons. (Of course, it's possible to buy keys for 80 rupees, but I feel that should be used as a last resort; I understand if others feel differently.) Some of the optional items (longbow, blue boomerang) are hidden behind keyholes. In level 8, on the path to the super wand, there is a key behind the lock. In levels 5 and 9, the use of "life or money" rooms only lead to a small key (why not something more significant?)

In terms of difficulty, size, and secrets, levels 8 and 9 are great. The endgame of this quest is especially fun to play. The mirrorrobes in level 8 kicked my ass a few times, but after returning with a full potion, I was able to handle them (in level 8 the most we fight at a time is three, which is ok given only the blue ring...still tough though). In level 9 (nice overworld location btw), I found the passage to Ganon by accident (in the NE-most room, I think the statue is more sensitive to touch than the push-able blocks), but seeing that the statue faces the wrong way should be a sufficient hint, imo.

I admit that prior to starting this quest, your OP regarding the magic key piqued my curiosity - to that I say, bravo - I don't think I've seen any other quest competitor "require" the red candle in the way that you do ("require" in quotes since the key is indeed optional). A bit Armageddon-quest-ish imo, but it seems that several entries are getting clever with some features in level 9 (this is going to be the last "N-th quest", so that seems ok by me).

Overall, in terms of the contest, I think this quest falls in the middle of the pack relative to the other competitors that I've played so far (and I admit to some selection bias in which quests I've avoided, so you're technically higher than the middle of the pack). The difficulty is appropriate, and the quest's pacing is well done. However, keeping the contest in mind, I think there exists too much deviation from Zelda 1 (enemy groups, too many new items, batrobes + firerobes + mirrorrobes, block puzzles within dungeons, the bright blue & pink blocks in dungeons). That said, it's still a fun quest to play even without considering its status as a 5th quest competitor. Cheers.

Thanks for the review and the bug fixes. I'm probably going to leave 3 alone given that in the original there were ways to skip through the dungeons with extra keys by bombing walls. Unfortunately the challenge in designing larger levels is key placement, and it's something I struggled with as I want the levels to have a non-linear feel to them. While there's a usual key -> item -> key -> item -> key -> boss key progression that's pretty standard, I wanted it feel more like you were exploring every corner to collect everything and that it wouldn't feel linear. With regards to the new enemies, we needed to add new enemies as part of the contest, so it felt more natural to add the different wizzrobe types than adding something completely different. I feel you on the enemy groups though (and that's something Nightmare addressed as well), but I think breaking those standard enemy groups made the game more enjoyable. To me nothing is more of a buzz kill than barely making it out of Level 7 alive from wizzrobes and then crushing Level 8 because its mostly super easy Goriyas. Level 6 and 7 in 1st Quest a pretty good example of that.

I'm glad you had fun playing it, as much as I'd like to win the contest, I'd rather have a quest that is challenging, fresh, and fun. From the feedback so far, I seem to have achieved that, so I'm happy no matter the outcome.

As for the last heart container (one of the first ones you can get)

Spoiler: show

Burn a bush to the right of the lost woods. In the 1st there was a 100 rupee bonus here

finally got around to finishing this quest. level 9 was really good. i was probably playing an older version because the bugs that were reported already in this thread were still there (no zelda flag, the push block goriya room in the top row didn't open shutters).

i've played through a bunch of these quests now, and i feel that the dungeons in this quest are the best of the contest. sure there are some authenticity issues with enemy groups, new items and the puzzles but i enjoyed the quest more than the more authentic entries. i don't think it would be too difficult to fix the enemy groupings while maintaining difficulty. and dropping the mirror shield, mirrorrobes and firerobes is easy. the new tiles (magic blocking blocks, magic eliminating floor tiles, etc) i'm ok with. the push block floor puzzles were neat but were a little out of place, if there were more puzzles in the game they would fit better, and why recycle the same puzzle into the next dungeon? they were also too easy to just brute force, both times i found the solution after solving.

this quest remains one of my favourites of the contest, its a shame it'll loose out based on authenticity.

Just finished level 6- so far I am enjoying this. One suggestion I have so far: make the longbow the required weapon to kill the level 6 boss. After all, armor-piercing was one of the advantages of a longbow over a short bow in reality :-)

Edit:
one days later, and I am done. A very good quest. I will admit that I didn't get the magic key (I just watched James' video to see how to get it), but it definitely is just a trophy, as I think I only had one locked door left at the time I found the route, but not the trick to getting by the room that needs the "creative" thinking.
I liked the puzzle aspects- the rooms in dungeons 5 and 7 with the push-block paths were very interesting (although I did the one in level 7 before finding the clue room).
Several things were interesting, but got annoying after a little while. In particular the overload in the number of types of wizrobes (I think I counted 6 types, it may be 7) I think the variants were overused. The invisible enemies were done in a much better manner- they were common enough to be more than a novelty, but sparse enough to not be annoying- the only really tough room with them was guarding the red ring, and I can allow that- for 2x health, a challenge is called for.

One question I have is in dungeon 7, there is one room not on the map, but it isn't a hidden path. I think that this was probably an oversight, and the dungeon map should be corrected accordingly (the missing room breaks the symmetry of the map as well, which hurts it aesthetically.

As I said above, the longbow really should have had a purpose, and my suggestion stands, although another idea comes from my experience in level 9- either I was really unlucky, or the ghoma in this level required the silver arrow to hit (I can't believe I messed up THAT many times with the normal arrows, but it is possible). If that is the case, then perhaps making the longbow required here instead would be better, perhaps with a clue somewhere saying something like "some ghomas' armor needs a stronger bow to penetrate" which would clue you in to the need for an upgraded bow, if you missed it.

Overall another great map (I've hit some of the better ones late in the set). I give it a flat 4 out of 5, ranking it second out of the 11 5th quests I've done so far.

I'm now through 7 levels, and know where 8 and 9 are (though I'm missing a HC).

One unfortunate mistake: the 'puzzle' room in Level 7 is broken, it that a block cannot be pushed 'off the path' (which causes it to become immobile in Level 5, as it should). As such, I was able to just keep pushing the block back-and-forth without needing the clue room (which I came across later). A novel idea, nonetheless, and an error that can easily be fixed.

And ... that's it.

Some pretty nice ideas for dungeons, and some nice new items and monsters to boot. (Ironically, many of the new Wizzrobes also appear in a custom quest. Unless, of course, you're the one who did "Fun in the Sun". And if you are, you need to fix the 'lockbox' error.)

Authenticity is lacking here. Creatures appear in dungeons with no rhyme or reason. And I think Level 8 overdid it with the push-walls. (Also a fatal error: one of the passageways only works in one direction. Going back down that corridor gets Link stuck in a corner of the screen.)

Solid, good level of difficulty, above the median for me ... but not a lot higher.

Thx for creating! Fun quest!

Starting to run this for YouTube recording. I'll be posting it around Thanksgiving Weekend.

-James

Let's Play Up!
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...5hEFK2TeEhAr9k

-James