Level 2 Planning:

So far, Level 2 has been "Confirmed" to be an Ice/Fire dungeon. You will have areas within the dungeon which will cool the entire dungeon down or heat the entire dungeon up. Picture Shoelace's Hero of Dreams Level 4. (The Sandy Dungeon, Cerbat Shrine.) It will all be occupying the same space, only the terrain will be different through out, as seen here:

Hot Dungeon:

• Ice and Water evaporates. Puddles and patches of ice seen in the ice dungeon will evaporate, and you'll be able to see and affect tiles underneath. If you could see a button or trigger under the ice, but couldn't effect it before, you can now.
• Holes and pits seen in the Ice Dungeon will now also be made unwalkable rather than able to be slowly walked over by being filled with ice or water. (Swimmable, I suppose.)
• Large blocks of ice will melt into puddles, opening up areas to walk through.

Ice Dungeon:

• Puddles will start to form in various places, obscuring the floor. Some of it will freeze over and obstruct your access to floor-based items, such as buttons and triggers and pressure plates, and may obstruct the movement of blocks that you could otherwise push. (Note: If a button is under a puddle, you may still affect it. You simply will not be able to see it.)
• Holes and pits -may- fill with water. It will either be shallow water, or deep water to be sailed over in a raft.
• Puddles existent in the Fire Dungeon will freeze to form large blocks of ice which will block your way. Some of them will be smashable with the hammer, though I don't plan on having many of them smashable at all.

I -think- what I'm going to do with the ice blocks, is make an "Ice block" graphic and a "chipped ice" graphic, just because we can. Like, .. you can chip away at it with the hammer, and it'd make a little chip in it, but it wouldn't break. That'd be cute, don't you think? :p Wouldn't take that much of an effort either.
Music:

The Ice Dungeon should sound something similar to Castlevania: Aria Of Sorrow: Underground Reservoir.

The Fire Dungeon, ... well, ... I haven't -quite- picked something out, but it could sound something like MaxX Cremation, (3.18 MB.) or something like Metroid Prime Main Menu Theme. Just a thought. :p It needs to be blazing and quite intense, like walking around inside a furnace.

Obviously, ... rest assured, ... the temperature changes within this particular Dungeon will be -QUITE- dramatic, considering the differences in the music.



Now, as for the items, I plan on allowing the structure of the dungeon to be assisted by the order which you recieve the items.

The ladder will definitely come first, as the dungeon will start off in the Fire aspect of the dungeon. You will need to go through the entire dungeon, doing what you can with what limited resources you have, (Don't bother with the hookshot, as there's nothing hookshottable in the dungeon. Wood burns, remember? And ice is too hard to hookshot.) until you reach the ladder, where you can then proceed back to a temperature changing station somewhere else. It'll probably be by the entrance, I suppose. MAYBE.

Then, with the dungeon in its Ice phase, you'd find many things frozen over with many new passages opened up and with an ice floor over pits, but with many old passages frozen over by large blocks of ice that you cannot possibly hope to break through. (EXCEPT possibly with a hammer. ;) ) So, we'll need to get that hammer to break through the ice. I suppose we could have a section of deep water which would be unpassable by the ladder in the Fire dungeon, and totally frozen over in the Ice dungeon, so you'd need the raft to get by in the Fire dungeon, and the hammer to smash your way through in the Ice dungeon. Thus, your next quest is for the hammer. When you finally have the hammer, you'll find the raft available as well, and can finally go to the Fire boss in the Fire area.
Of course, then, you'd have to consider what the boss would do. Perhaps this could be a hybrid of fire and ice? Thoughts, anyone? ... Perhaps smashing his icy hands with the hammer, then attacking his heart of fire (Heh, kidding. XD ) with something?

Are these dungeons going to be a cave type dmap or dungeon? The cave type would allow for alot more than the dungeon. The dungeon type requires for the retrigger of secrets.

How about using the candle to melt the icy spots and blocks throughout the dungeon.

Arrows? If you have arrows, you could use them to shoot icicles off the cieling to cool off the fire on the boss and when you have completely frozen him into ice, you could use the hammer to smash him to bits.

Somehow that idea sounds very familiar...
I'm pretty sure you must have played my TGOTTD demo, because there are so many things from the Climate Cavern of TGOTTD in the planning for level 2 of Neofirst o_O

-The idea in general.
-The roadblocks.
-Usage of the Raft.
-The music even.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...atecavern1.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...atecavern2.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Z

Somehow that idea sounds very familiar...
I'm pretty sure you must have played my TGOTTD demo, because there are so many things from the Climate Cavern of TGOTTD in the planning for level 2 of Neofirst o_O

-The idea in general.
-The roadblocks.
-Usage of the Raft.
-The music even.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...atecavern1.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...atecavern2.jpg

---

Nope. It came off the top of my head. I don't play demos very often, if ever.

Actually I was talking to BH4. :blah:

Mr. Z, That's EXACTLY Where I got the idea from. :p Thus, remind me to credit you for NeoFirst's conception. ;-D .. If you don't mind, that is. (And dangit, my name is ShadowTiger! X x. )

Quote:

---

Are these dungeons going to be a cave type dmap or dungeon? The cave type would allow for alot more than the dungeon. The dungeon type requires for the retrigger of secrets.

---

Cave. Obviously. But remember, you've got those new Screen Flags that can make it either Cave type or Dungeon type, so... ... And I'm pretty sure at least a FEW rooms will have doors in them.

Quote:

---

How about using the candle to melt the icy spots and blocks throughout the dungeon.

---

... Have you ever tried to melt ice with a Candle? :blah: XD :laughing:

Quote:

---

Arrows? If you have arrows, you could use them to shoot icicles off the cieling to cool off the fire on the boss and when you have completely frozen him into ice, you could use the hammer to smash him to bits.

---

Well, how would you represent the i... oh, ... hm, maybe you could have a third floor where you'd be on roughly a few feet below the cave ceiling? ... ... Nah, a little bit too complex. Besides, I'm saving the arrows for the third dungeon. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowTiger

... Have you ever tried to melt ice with a Candle? XD

---

Well, obviously not with the candle, but since the candle's fire sprite is constant, you could change it to resemble something more powerfull than a candle.(ie. flamethrower) Just thinking by the flame aspect and how fire melts ice.

For the boss, why not use Twinrova? They use Fire and Ice attacks, and you can hurt the Ice one (I know their names, but I forget which one uses fire and which uses ice) with either the Hammer or the Red Candle, since, as we all know, fire melts ice. As for the fire one, I can't think of an item that has to do with water or ice. Maybe you could instead make special "magic" in the form of an Iceball or a Fireball, and you have to reflect that back at Twinrova with the Mirror Shield, like in OoT (although you slash them in Oracles). It's just a thought, but reading the "Ice/Fire Dungeon" part instantly made me think of them, since they DO use fire and ice. How ironic.

Perhaps the boss could have the ability to change the temperature.
Say there's another switch in the boss room to change the temperature. The boss can only be hurt when it's hot, but has the ability to make it cold. So you have to hit the switch to make it hot, then rush to hit him before he changes it back.
You'd have to explain why he didn't do anything while you were going through the rest of the level, though. Maybe it's encased in ice and you have to hit it with the wand/book to free it, or some such.

Boss: Orb of Chaos

Description: A floating orb that acts as the guardian of the dungeon. Surrounds itself with two orbs, a red one and a blue one. It moves around the stage while the orbs alternate attacks. Must destroy both orbs so you can hit the main orb, which turns from silver to dull grey and hits the ground. Hit the main orb 12 times to proceed. After a few hits the blue and red orbs will reform, and the attack begins again. The attacks of the red and blue orbs are as follows:

Red:
1. Goes to high top of the screen (above reach of Link) and shoots streams of fire at various places.
2. Quickly darts across the screen several times, leaving fire trails behind that damage Link
3. Goes to random part of screen and starts firing fireballs. Is surrounding by disappearing and reappearing lava. Only hittable with hammer while this is going on

Blue:
1. Goes to random part of screen and upon appearing, slashes a large ice sword in a certain direction
2. Goes to high top of screen (above reach of Link) and causes icicles to fall onto the ground.
3. Goes to random part of screen and shoots streams of ice either horizontally or vertically from the orb. Surrounding by disappearing and reappearing ice shards. Only hittable with hammer while this is going on.

Next form: After the orb is hit 12 times, it goes to the top of the screen and pushes Link to the bottom of the wall. The top half of the screen where the orb is turns into ice and the bottom half turns into the fiery part. The top has ice platforms with water while the bottom part has rocky paths with lava. For this phase, traverse the lava carefully, then walk up to the ice portion, where you have to use the ladder to go across the water. Get to the orb, and smash it with the hammer. Do this three times, and the orb is defeated. Oh, and in this phase fire will shoot from the sides in the bottom half, while ice crystals will be falling from the ceiling in the top half.

Ambitious yes, but I think it can work if one of our resident custom boss experts decides to work on it :)

I take it since you're putting forth this description that you're planning on adding some features to the freeform combo system to make this setup a bit easier? :)

maybe :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jman2050

Boss: Orb of Chaos

Description: A floating orb that acts as the guardian of the dungeon. Surrounds itself with two orbs, a red one and a blue one. It moves around the stage while the orbs alternate attacks. Must destroy both orbs so you can hit the main orb, which turns from silver to dull grey and hits the ground. Hit the main orb 12 times to proceed. After a few hits the blue and red orbs will reform, and the attack begins again. The attacks of the red and blue orbs are as follows:

Red:
1. Goes to high top of the screen (above reach of Link) and shoots streams of fire at various places.
2. Quickly darts across the screen several times, leaving fire trails behind that damage Link
3. Goes to random part of screen and starts firing fireballs. Is surrounding by disappearing and reappearing lava. Only hittable with hammer while this is going on

Blue:
1. Goes to random part of screen and upon appearing, slashes a large ice sword in a certain direction
2. Goes to high top of screen (above reach of Link) and causes icicles to fall onto the ground.
3. Goes to random part of screen and shoots streams of ice either horizontally or vertically from the orb. Surrounding by disappearing and reappearing ice shards. Only hittable with hammer while this is going on.

Next form: After the orb is hit 12 times, it goes to the top of the screen and pushes Link to the bottom of the wall. The top half of the screen where the orb is turns into ice and the bottom half turns into the fiery part. The top has ice platforms with water while the bottom part has rocky paths with lava. For this phase, traverse the lava carefully, then walk up to the ice portion, where you have to use the ladder to go across the water. Get to the orb, and smash it with the hammer. Do this three times, and the orb is defeated. Oh, and in this phase fire will shoot from the sides in the bottom half, while ice crystals will be falling from the ceiling in the top half.

Ambitious yes, but I think it can work if one of our resident custom boss experts decides to work on it :)

---

WOAH. Now THAT sounds like a good boss. Even better than Twinrova! Although Twinrova is a good idea to me, seeing as how they use the same types of attacks as the themes to the dungeon.

And once again, I have to say that we should probably make as much of this quest as we can, custom. Including bosses. :p Now I don't have any ideas for a boss (or bosses?) for this place yet, but I don't think we should use any of the bosses from real Zelda games.

Just posting some ideas I was discussing in chat with ST so he can look back on them in post-form later on. Some of you guys should really join us in chat some time, seriously. A lot of cool ideas get tossed around. :p

So, for anyone it concerns, Room State Carryovers only work on the LOWEST level of secrets, as in, the first secrets triggered in the screen. By this I mean, tiered secrets aren't permanently triggered by carryovers. For anyone working on dungeon plans, this is probably a good piece of information to know.

Also, whatever the boss of this dungeon is going to be, I figured we could have the player end up in the ice version of the boss room at the end of the dungeon, so they get to see this boss in suspended animation before they fight it. Obviously there'd be a warp to the fire version of this room right IN the room. Whether or not there would be a warp back to the ice version (as in, whether or not switching between fire and ice will be used in the boss fight) is yet to be decided, I think.

I had this odd idea for the second dungeon earlier this morning...

Why not have piillars of flame come out of the floor and certain holes in the dungeon when it's in its Fire state, and when it's covered with Ice, there are cracks in the floor where the fire was coming out of the floor, and where there were holes, there is now water that you can dive in to get to a new place (and yes, it WOULD be right, because first, the flame shooter would freeze, then thaw because of the fire it contains. However, the water AND cold temperatures make the machine malfunction, so all that's left is water). Sounds fun, huh? The underwater areas could probably just have some optional items, like Pieces of Heart (I never call them Heart Container Pieces. They've NEVER been called that except in ZC.) or Magic Containers.

Sure, fire jets are certainly possible. :) The diving, however, ... I'm not so sure about. I don't think I'll be having the dive feature activated in NeoFirst, except for a few screens. I don't even remember if you could dive in ALTTP. o.O' (Even if you could, I wouldn't care. :p ) We're here to show off new features. We'll need to show off the "Toggle Diving" features as well. Thus, perhaps we could have some screens where you'd have to dive to get an item. ;) Good thinking pikaguy.

Quote:

---

Also, whatever the boss of this dungeon is going to be, I figured we could have the player end up in the ice version of the boss room at the end of the dungeon, so they get to see this boss in suspended animation before they fight it. Obviously there'd be a warp to the fire version of this room right IN the room. Whether or not there would be a warp back to the ice version (as in, whether or not switching between fire and ice will be used in the boss fight) is yet to be decided, I think.

---

I would love to see the boss encased in ice when you first see it. ;) Just need to figure out what that boss -IS- ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Britannianhero4

Sure, fire jets are certainly possible. :) The diving, however, ... I'm not so sure about. I don't think I'll be having the dive feature activated in NeoFirst, except for a few screens. I don't even remember if you could dive in ALTTP. o.O' (Even if you could, I wouldn't care. :p ) We're here to show off new features. We'll need to show off the "Toggle Diving" features as well. Thus, perhaps we could have some screens where you'd have to dive to get an item. ;) Good thinking pikaguy.

---

Unfortunately, it DIDN'T have diving, which kind of disappointed me after playing all the other Zelda games (including the GBA version) before the SNES version of ALttP.... Oh, and what's the point of using the "Toggle Diving" rule/flag (I forgot which it is) if you're not going to have rooms that you CAN dive in? Or maybe you could simply make the "diving" areas swim warps... Just a thought there...

Well since there is both a quest rule AND a screen flag, it's basically the difference between constructing a two color image of a white foreground against a black background versus a black foreground against a white background. Two different ways of going about roughly the same image. Since I don't want the player to be able to dive in roughly 95% of the entire quest, the screen flag "Toggle diving" will only have to be set on a few screens.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought the screen flag was to toggle whether or not you could SWIM in a screen? I don't see what the problem with being able to dive is, since it doesn't take you under the water like it does in Oracle of Ages. Perhaps you could explain the problem to me, ST?

Dive = Press "A" (Or B, whatever.) to become submerged beneath the water for nearly three seconds, becoming invulnerable to everything, more or less, but moving slightly slower.


The screen flag toggles it for the whole screen, whereas the quest rule toggles it for the whole quest. The screen flag simply reverses the current screen's ability to dive. I.e. if for one screen both are off or both are on, you'll be able to dive. If either one of them is on while the other is off for any given screen, you won't be able to dive. Think of it as a positive times a positive, a negative times a negative, a negative times a positive, or a positive times a negative. The first two are -yes- dive, the second two are -no- dive.

I know how that part works (:p), but I don't see what the problem with being able to dive, so we can dodge shots, is. Did you not want the player to have a safe haven in most of the water in the game?

Actually no. I don't think the flippers will be readily available for most of the game. I mean, where WOULD the flippers be used? :shrug: We don't even use them in L2! We use the raft and ladder for that. L3 probably won't have a drop of water in it anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jman2050

Boss: Orb of Chaos

Description: A floating orb that acts as the guardian of the dungeon. Surrounds itself with two orbs, a red one and a blue one. It moves around the stage while the orbs alternate attacks. Must destroy both orbs so you can hit the main orb, which turns from silver to dull grey and hits the ground. Hit the main orb 12 times to proceed. After a few hits the blue and red orbs will reform, and the attack begins again. The attacks of the red and blue orbs are as follows:

Red:
1. Goes to high top of the screen (above reach of Link) and shoots streams of fire at various places.
2. Quickly darts across the screen several times, leaving fire trails behind that damage Link
3. Goes to random part of screen and starts firing fireballs. Is surrounding by disappearing and reappearing lava. Only hittable with hammer while this is going on

Blue:
1. Goes to random part of screen and upon appearing, slashes a large ice sword in a certain direction
2. Goes to high top of screen (above reach of Link) and causes icicles to fall onto the ground.
3. Goes to random part of screen and shoots streams of ice either horizontally or vertically from the orb. Surrounding by disappearing and reappearing ice shards. Only hittable with hammer while this is going on.

Next form: After the orb is hit 12 times, it goes to the top of the screen and pushes Link to the bottom of the wall. The top half of the screen where the orb is turns into ice and the bottom half turns into the fiery part. The top has ice platforms with water while the bottom part has rocky paths with lava. For this phase, traverse the lava carefully, then walk up to the ice portion, where you have to use the ladder to go across the water. Get to the orb, and smash it with the hammer. Do this three times, and the orb is defeated. Oh, and in this phase fire will shoot from the sides in the bottom half, while ice crystals will be falling from the ceiling in the top half.

Ambitious yes, but I think it can work if one of our resident custom boss experts decides to work on it :)

---

So jman will be building this boss.

[14:42] <jman2050> http://www.armageddongames.net/showp...7&postcount=10
[14:42] <jman2050> remember this?
[14:43] <jman2050> would you like me to add that boss to NeoFirst?
[14:43] <Shoelace> :O
[14:43] <jman2050> provided someone else does gfx though
[14:43] <Shoelace> I would love that!
[14:44] * Shoelace is not good at graphics.
[14:44] <Shoelace> I am the one that trys to make unique puzzles so of course I will be using FF Scripting. I just need to figure it out. lol
[14:45] <Shoelace> but I haven't had the time to figure it out yet.
[14:45] <ShadowTiger> jman, that'd be wonderful! Sure, add the boss. What kind of graphics would you like? ... ... eh, I'll design 'em.
[14:45] <jman2050> no editor in ZC yet
[14:45] <jman2050> just three orbs
[14:45] <jman2050> one 2x2
[14:45] <jman2050> 2 of them 1x1
[14:46] <ShadowTiger> Very easy. o.o
[14:46] <jman2050> one silver, one red, one blue
[14:46] <ShadowTiger> Any others? Lightning? Fire? Ice? ..
[14:46] <jman2050> the environment will be a rocky one
[14:46] <ShadowTiger> Oh, very much. 's rocky already.
[14:46] <jman2050> it'll be normal color for the first form
[14:46] <jman2050> then
[14:46] <ShadowTiger> Then again, why not make these Rocks FF combos, so we can blow them away with boss attacks. :P
[14:46] <jman2050> when the second form is done
[14:47] <jman2050> the bottom half will be red
[14:47] <jman2050> the top half will be blue
[14:47] <jman2050> there'll be water on top
[14:47] <ShadowTiger> What'll be the normal color? The Orb will be silver, .. then, .. .. okay, ..
[14:47] <jman2050> and lava below
[14:47] <ShadowTiger> Yep. Great for a Fire/Ice dungeon.
[14:47] <jman2050> there'll be...
[14:47] <jman2050> icicles
[14:47] <jman2050> ireballs
[14:48] <jman2050> anyway, icicles, fireballs, complete with shadows
[14:48] <jman2050> and graphics for a large sword swing
[14:48] <jman2050> say...
[14:48] <jman2050> 3x3
[14:48] <ShadowTiger> It'll swing a sword?
[14:48] <jman2050> large icicle sword swing
[14:49] <ShadowTiger> Ah. >.>
[14:49] <jman2050> also, gfx for fire trails
[14:49] <jman2050> and a beam of ice
[14:49] <jman2050> going horizontally
[14:49] <jman2050> and vertically
[14:49] <jman2050> that should be it


Okay. Remember, anyone who wants to contribute towards this, feel free to do so.

Here's my suggestion about the sun/moon motif I mentioned in some other topic. It isn't really very thought through at the moment.

* The "temperature switch room" would involve manipulating a stationary orb. When in the fire dungeon, this orb would resemble a fiery sun (with sunburst flares surrounding it) and in the ice dungeon, this orb would resemble a snow-white full moon. Blowing candlefire on the white moon would change it to the red sun, and hitting the red sun with the hammer would stamp out its flames, changing it to a moon. (This'd work better if the dungeon's initial state was ice.)
* Of course, you don't get the hammer until after the other two items. So: when you enter the first switch room for the first time, an NPC will hit the red sun with his hammer and then escape. Later he'll be a miniboss you'll have to fight (or outwit?) to get the hammer.
* Several rooms in the ice dungeon would be dark (or just dim), and with "nocturnal" enemies.
* The motif would extend to the dungeon boss's appearance: The "Red Orb" would resemble the Red Sun, and the "Blue Orb" would resemble the White Moon.

Heh, I'm loving it already. :p I could really imagine all of that.

My Comments:

1) IMHO, it'd be far nicer if the Miniboss wouldn't have to stamp out the fires for you. Perhaps we could use the hookshot instead for some reason? We already have that, so...
2) Nobody even knows what this miniboss is yet. Why would he/she/it/they/stuff help Link?
3) This is probably the sort of thing where it's non-linear in that you can switch the cavern's temperature at will if you're in one of those change rooms.
4) I'm definitely full on to the idea of changing the temperature of the orb to manipulate the entire dungeon.

Quote:

---

1) IMHO, it'd be far nicer if the Miniboss wouldn't have to stamp out the fires for you. Perhaps we could use the hookshot instead for some reason? We already have that, so...

---

Well, here's how it goes: the dungeon starts off in Fire mode. You explore as much as you can and get the ladder. When you use it to get to the switch room, the mystery person changes it to Ice mode, and also damages the room such that you can't change it back to Fire mode. Then you do some more exploring, get the raft, and use it to find another switch room to make it Fire mode again. Then you do some more exploring, beat the miniboss and get the hammer. Then the serious switching-related puzzles come into play.

But the hookshot... well, the hookshot's hook freezes enemies, so maybe it could "freeze!" the orb? (Okay, listen, that pun doesn't leave this topic.)

Quote:

---

2) Nobody even knows what this miniboss is yet. Why would he/she/it/they/stuff help Link?

---

Back when I wrote the "What will the Quest tokens be?" topic, I was kind of half-thinking that the token for Sun & Moon Dungeon would be Zora's Sapphire. The miniboss would be a "rival hero" who'd be questing for the Sapphire as well, and he'd be an ocean zora (and would attack you with MM-style zora fin boomerangs!)

...but, you know, since we're using the tainted Triforce for the quest tokens, this may have to change. I still like the "rival hero" idea, though.

Well I like the concept, myself. If you can plot out the course of the dungeon, as well as the miniboss, before anyone else plans out L2, we'll use that design. ;)