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The First Dungeon: Theme.
Alright. This question will also help us to plan out our overworld, as whatever theme this dungeon will have, it'll obviously tend to match up with the theme of the overworld that it's placed in. Thus, we need to decide what theme this first dungeon will be.
Anyone ever play Teilyr's CoD Demo, or Revenge 2? Hidden Duality? LinkTheMaster's Night Rod Demo? ... If you have, this dungeon will be very similar to those. It'll be a standard dungeon romp Dungeon, with the usual hunt for keys, the map, the compass, bombing walls, killing enemies to reveal secrets, solving puzzles, etc. The dungeon won't necessarily have a "Gimmick," such as raising or lowering water levels. It's supposed to be something attainable to the relatively new ZC user, while still teaching proper level design and puzzle schematics.
Thus: I ask you all, ... ... ... what's your favorite theme? :D Let's just get a big ball of opinions rolling, and we can sort them out when we begin to get a grasp of what people love to see. :)
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
A basic Forest Temple/Earth Temple... that kind of stuff? :)
So you're gonna build the quest in a way that eg the first level is a very simple, basic Zelda dungeon that shows newbies the most common and basic features of ZC. And then the next level starts concentrating more on some new and complex features... like multiple warping, combo cycling etc... and then there's one level which shows how to use catwalks, one dungeon which shows how to use the reset combo effectively (blue/red pole lowering/raising dng?) and so on?
At least in my opinion that would be a good way to go. Concentrate on a few specific tricks/features per level, dont scatter them all around the quest...
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
The first level, imo, should be something typical of the Zelda series. I like the forest temple idea most myself. Like Petoe said, I'd suggest we keep the tricks down to a minimum in the first dungeon (not much more than your basic bombable wall and locked doors), then get more advanced in later ones.
So, my vote is forest temple.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
I agree, to a certain extent however. I think new features should be shown off right away. Perhaps if the bow & arrow is found in the first dungeon, there could be targets such as an eye that cycle, along with inherent flags, so you must hit the target when its at a certain stage in its cycle (such as when an eye is open and not closed)
You could also have treasure chests & treasure chests that appear as secrets when enemies are defeated or a trigger is set off. These are simple, yet not something that would have been feasible in ZC long ago.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Maybe you could have it as a "treasure chest palace", where every item in the dungeon (execpt items dropped by enemies) is in a Treasure Chest combo. Plus, the walls and doors could be shiny-looking, or maybe even look like you were inside a giant Treasure Chest!
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by pikaguy900
Maybe you could have it as a "treasure chest palace", where every item in the dungeon (execpt items dropped by enemies) is in a Treasure Chest combo. Plus, the walls and doors could be shiny-looking, or maybe even look like you were inside a giant Treasure Chest!
My vote goes to "giant treasure chest" dungeon. :p Although, is this going to be a LoZ dungeon, or a little more freeform than rectangle rooms? That's something we ought to decide before the complexity of the dungeon elements, I believe.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by Rakki
My vote goes to "giant treasure chest" dungeon. :p Although, is this going to be a LoZ dungeon, or a little more freeform than rectangle rooms? That's something we ought to decide before the complexity of the dungeon elements, I believe.
Good point. Although, I WOULD like to see a dungeon that not only looks like a Treasure Chest, but is also SHAPED like a Treasure chest. There could even be multiple floors, with the top floor maybe being the top of the Treasure Chest, which would be outside.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
I think a forest level would be a good level to start out with. I will try to make suggestions and things for puzzles that fit into the theme of the level, and actually make the items useful. Anyways, my vote is for a forest level, just for tradation.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
I really like the Treasure Dungeon idea. Forest temples are okay...but let's break tradition a little. Besides, I've never heard of that kind of dungeon, and it sounds like a good idea. Though, assuming the treasure box is square, they'll probably be either square rooms, or one large, open space with glittery floors and pillars, a ladder letting you get through the top through a hole or something.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by algam86
I really like the Treasure Dungeon idea. Forest temples are okay...but let's break tradition a little. Besides, I've never heard of that kind of dungeon, and it sounds like a good idea. Though, assuming the treasure box is square, they'll probably be either square rooms, or one large, open space with glittery floors and pillars, a ladder letting you get through the top through a hole or something.
No, I didn't mean the shape of the rooms is the same as the shape of the Treasure Chest, I meant that the dungeon itself (when you look at the map) looks like a Treasure Chest.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Heh, I was throwing out an idea. I didn't exactly mean for it to be entirely agreeable with what you were saying...I was figuring 'why not actually try and make it look like a treasure chest' instead of just the map...
But then, it's your dungeon idea.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by algam86
Heh, I was throwing out an idea. I didn't exactly mean for it to be entirely agreeable with what you were saying...I was figuring 'why not actually try and make it look like a treasure chest' instead of just the map...
But then, it's your dungeon idea.
Oh, well, I'm sorry. It's a good idea, though, but here's a problem with it: Smaller rooms mean less room for puzzles and traps.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Forest Temple, it's a good way to start the quest I think...
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by pikaguy900
Oh, well, I'm sorry. It's a good idea, though, but here's a problem with it: Smaller rooms mean less room for puzzles and traps.
I think it's pushing it to stretch a puzzle over one screen on the first level anyway, so square rooms shouldn't really be a problem in that sense. Not that I'm saying we AREN'T going to push puzzles beyond one screen, because we ARE, but maybe that trick should be held over for level 2, the gimmick dungeon? Also, define what you mean by traps? :p I'm assuming you aren't talking about the enemy?
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Guys. The first dungeon is a NORMAL Dungeon! No Gimmick. :p "Treasure chest dungeon" is a gimmick! :p XD
The theme of the dungeon won't have a special gimmick. No. Not at all. Visually, it can be anything we want, though it'd probably have to be at least half to 3/4 dungeon walls and such. That doesn't mean it can't be 1/4-1/3 forest though. Hell, I'd love for it to be a forest temple with TONS of gardens, trees, overhead leaves, ... ... fountains. ;) <3 ... Nothing at all stopping us from doing that. Thing is, it just can't have a gimmick.
Examples of Themes:
- Castle - C-Dawg's Sabotage Dragoon's Moblin Castle. (I forget its name. :sweat: )
- Excavated Fire Temple - Teilyr's CoD Demo, Level 1.
- Forest Dungeon - DarkFlameWolf's Isle Of The Winds, L2.
Examples of Gimmicks:
- The entire dungeon changes when you flip a switch or step on a button. (C-Dawg's Sabotage Dragoon's Grand Kettle - Three levels of heat intensity, three different copies of the same dungeon.
- A "Before" and "After" dungeon - Petoe's MMDWR's Level 1, where you turn on the electricity, and your progress through the level changes dramatically.
- Raising and Lowering Water Levels: Shoelace's Hero Of Dreams L5 Demo.
The first dungeon of NeoFirst WILL be a "Theme" Dungeon. It will not have any gimmicks at all. The second dungeon of NeoFirst will be a Gimmick dungeon, and may or may not be themed.
Each individual room may have its own unique puzzle though. Anything we can do to show off ZC 2.11's capabilities, we can do. We just need to structure it. :p
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
How about a desert dungeon? A number of rooms could have sand on the ground where you could use lots of sand-type enemies like Leevers and Lanmolas. Its a nice, simple theme that lets you do pretty much whatever you want with it.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Hmmm, Z1's Level 2, eh? That would be a perfect place to show off conveyers and the "Land Zora" trick. Maybe even some sandfalls you can force your way through? Like the Waterfall in Z1, except as a Walkthrough Wall instead? Sounds like a good theme for a standard-fare dungeon to me...
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by Britannianhero4
Guys. The first dungeon is a NORMAL Dungeon! No Gimmick. :p "Treasure chest dungeon" is a gimmick! :p XD
Not the way I was thinking, BH4. I was thinking of the rooms looking like treasure chests, because of the walls. Although, thinking back, I guess that'd be kind of bland, since the biggest part of the treasure chest is the lid, and it'd have to be open for you to be able to SEE what you're doing. :rolleyes:
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by Rakki
Not the way I was thinking, BH4. I was thinking of the rooms looking like treasure chests, because of the walls. Although, thinking back, I guess that'd be kind of bland, since the biggest part of the treasure chest is the lid, and it'd have to be open for you to be able to SEE what you're doing. :rolleyes:
That would still be a gimmick. :p It simply wouldn't be at all "normal." It would involve thinking the phrase "Whoah, funky." throughout your treks. It'd still feel like a gimmick if it wasn't a normal type dungeon. I mean, what'd you put in it to make it seem like a treasure chest? Gears? :p (Actually, that would be a good idea, but how would it work? ... Oh, I know. But still, that's definitely a gimmick.)
Ideas need both graphical representation and practical representation. Can't have one without the other. Even then, it needs to fit in the right category.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Yeah, sorry. I kinda got carried away there about the treasure chest dungeon. I don't really know what a gimmick is, so.... Maybe that could be the second dungeon? Maybe the first could be one of the dungeons in ALttP, only without all the special feature it would have, like poundable moles, switches, rising/falling blocks, and treasure chests that appear magically.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
An ice Dungeon would be fine. Maybe have the dungeon all ice up until some point where you need to find a key element in the dungeon to remove the ice and turn it to water to continue on and finish. Or even maybe the other way around. Water to ice.
Might make good use of the 256 color spectrum for the combos.
But I definately agree with trying to keep the rooms themselves from being square. Maybe put a little graphical change in the appearance in the begining and advance it further on in next levels.
Having an intro screen could easily give an example of how to input this sort of thing into a quest and might solve the questions about "How do I do an intro?"
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by Cloral
How about a desert dungeon? A number of rooms could have sand on the ground where you could use lots of sand-type enemies like Leevers and Lanmolas. Its a nice, simple theme that lets you do pretty much whatever you want with it.
sounds interesting, but how about that theme with fire (heat of day) ice (dead of night), or the combination thereof? It might provide some interesting puzzles to solve... (sorry if it's a bit vague, but with being tired as heck, I can't think straight atm) :sweat:
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by rocksfan13
An ice Dungeon would be fine. Maybe have the dungeon all ice up until some point where you need to find a key element in the dungeon to remove the ice and turn it to water to continue on and finish. Or even maybe the other way around. Water to ice.
Sorry, but isn't that a Gimmick?
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Changing from one to the other might be, but the dungeon as ice or water, or fire, or whatever wouldn't be. Maybe save it until later on in the game.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
I didn't realize gimmicks included unique dungeon themes (like Treasure Chest). Non-gimmicks would probably be the basics, like standard dungeon walls, forest, desert, ice OR water (not both), fire, wind, dark, light, etc. Out of these ordinary themes, I think I like forest the best for the first dungeon. Perhaps the second could use water and ice, since we keep talking about the gimmick dungeon possibly using things like changing water levels (which I could CERTAINLY help with making, as I have a bunch of cool ideas floating around in my head).
Oh, and BH4, you remember how I said I thought I had some ideas for uses for the Room State Carryover? The reason I couldn't get them to work before was because I didn't know it ONLY activates on secrets being triggered. I think I can get at least some of my ideas to work now that I know HOW to use RSCs. If I can get at least one of them to work, I'll help out with the gimmicks in the quest. Provided that you like what I come up with, that is. :p
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by Rakki
I didn't realize gimmicks included unique dungeon themes (like Treasure Chest).
"Gimmick" is a fairly loose term. It encompasses a lot of things, but it also doesn't encompass many things that you'd think would be included. It's the overall effect and feel of the dungeon that ultimately determines what sort of dungeon we're exploring. Since the goal of the first dungeon here is a key-romp, wall-bombing, individual-puzzle-room-solving dungeon, we don't get a gimmick here. Nothing involving the whole dungeon in the puzzle.
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Non-gimmicks would probably be the basics, like standard dungeon walls, forest, desert, ice OR water (not both),
I don't see why you can't have both water and ice in there. :p [quote] fire, wind, dark, light, etc. Out of these ordinary themes, I think I like forest the best for the first dungeon.[quote]Agreed. :p XD Then again, I'm somewhat of a nature boy, so I'm inclined to say such a thing.
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Perhaps the second could use water and ice, since we keep talking about the gimmick dungeon possibly using things like changing water levels (which I could CERTAINLY help with making, as I have a bunch of cool ideas floating around in my head).
Heh. A little mundane, but certainly possible. Adding to idea list. :p
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Oh, and BH4, you remember how I said I thought I had some ideas for uses for the Room State Carryover? The reason I couldn't get them to work before was because I didn't know it ONLY activates on secrets being triggered. I think I can get at least some of my ideas to work now that I know HOW to use RSCs. If I can get at least one of them to work, I'll help out with the gimmicks in the quest. Provided that you like what I come up with, that is. :p
Any idea of any scale is good to have. :) Thank you very much. ^-^ Please, the more the merrier, Rakki!
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by Britannianhero4
"Gimmick" is a fairly loose term. It encompasses a lot of things, but it also doesn't encompass many things that you'd think would be included. It's the overall effect and feel of the dungeon that ultimately determines what sort of dungeon we're exploring. Since the goal of the first dungeon here is a key-romp, wall-bombing, individual-puzzle-room-solving dungeon, we don't get a gimmick here. Nothing involving the whole dungeon in the puzzle. I don't see why you can't have both water and ice in there. :p
I think we're missing what each other is getting at here. ^_^; The only thing I was suggesting, as far as the treasure chest dungeon goes, is that the walls/floor of the dungeon make it LOOK like you're inside a bunch of treasure chests. The puzzles wouldn't have anything to do with treasure chests (unless there was an item IN a chest, in which case, that'd be all it was, lol). And yes, a water and ice dungeon could work, but I figured a dungeon with ice melting to water or freezing to help you out in whatever way would be gimmicky. :p
Edit: And apparently I DON'T know how to use RSCs... :sweat: Isn't there a thread on how to get them to work somewhere?
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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The only thing I was suggesting, as far as the treasure chest dungeon goes, is that the walls/floor of the dungeon make it LOOK like you're inside a bunch of treasure chests. The puzzles wouldn't have anything to do with treasure chests
Well, alright, but then my question is, why? :p
And melting a little bit of ice here and there isn't a gimmick if you do it on a screen-by-screen basis. That would be much more of a puzzle. Most "Gimmicks" would be done in a floor by floor basis, rather than an individual screen by screen basis. The whole dungeon could and would be affected at an entire time.
RSC's, if we're both thinking the same thing regarding what they are, ... are relatively simple to use, I suppose. On one screen, refer to (In the screen flags area.) a map and screen which would be affected in the same way you're affecting the present screen. If you trigger secrets on this screen, the secrets will be triggered on the screen you're referring to. If you want a "loop" of secrets triggered, i.e. that if you trigger secrets on one screen they're Triggered on ALL of the screens, then you'd make a loop of referrals, having one screen refer to the next, and back again so no screen refers to a screen that's not in the loop. (A Circle or Chain, if you will.) All you need to do there is have only one (Or the desired amount.) of screens with the ability to trigger secrets.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Okay, now correct me if I'm wrong... but RSCs only work on screens with permanent secrets, don't they? I was trying to do something with push blocks and block triggers, but it wouldn't work, but just a little while ago, I used a RSC on an overworld screen to carry the state of bombable tiles over to another screen and it did seem to work... So I guess, if I want to use these with block puzzles, I have to set the room flag "Treat As Cave?"
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
I would suggest perhaps having the first dungeon an old fashioned ruined castle, which would add to the treasure chest logic. Then the second one, the gimmick one, could be like a composite elemental level, with fire, water, earth etc. sections, and then the final one could be something else that I can't think of. But I think the first two would work like that, personally.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Keep it simple... mostly so that it won't take forever to get a build of this quest done. I wana see some progress on this :P
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
lol, like I was going to say a few hours ago before a certain pure forum went all to hell, *cough* ... We can go with either a forest Dungeon or a broken down Castle dungeon. Ever play DFW's Hidden Duality's Level 4? Most of the dungeon was empty. You could explore a dungeon entirely, then find a single crack, bomb it, and discover an entire underworking under the dungeon, with hidden walls all around for you to traverse the dungeon with. Damn cool. Of course, that'd be a gimmick, so that'd e suitable as an easy-to-design Level 2.
So. Forest Dungeon, Anyone? Lots of Layering, but lots of nice hidden traps and such. Almost certainly using the Lamp and the hookshot. Would be nice to have for L2, which I foresee being an elemental-type dungeon.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Originally Posted by Britannianhero4
So. Forest Dungeon, Anyone? Lots of Layering, but lots of nice hidden traps and such. Almost certainly using the Lamp and the hookshot. Would be nice to have for L2, which I foresee being an elemental-type dungeon.
Bow & Arrows would fit in with the forest nicely as well, I think. Archery, anyone? :p Oh, plus, we'd be able to show off the new arrow counter almost right off the bat.
...This brings up an interesting question. One which'll probably be answered quickly. :p Anyway, what subscreen type are we using? I assume we're going to use ALttP subscreen type because it's the only one that uses the arrow counter currently, and because it's the only subscreen you have to specially set up? Or wait, do you have to set up the REAL BS subscreens specially as well? Maybe we should just enable the quest to use any subscreen type and clarify what subscreen uses what tiles on the tile pages, incase a user wants to see how to set up a subscreen type that is not used for PLAYING the quest?
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Nah, I don't really see us using a BS Subscreen. ... Myself, ... ... I think we should just wait and see what happens. It'll depend on what we need. I'm also thinking that we can give over the bow in the Final Dungeon by which to defeat Gannnnnnnnnnnon.
Of course, ... yes, we should definitely include the tiles for the ALTTP Style Subscreen in the quest, assuming it'll still be hardcoded in at that point. That's fairly easy to do though. :p I just need to remember where that Subscreen.qst went.
Alright. .. So!
Dungeon #1: Forest Temple.
Items: Candle, Hookshot, ____(?), ____(?), Compass, Map, Boss Key.
Midi: ______, Or Z64 Forest Temple.
Tileset: Radien's DoR Forest Temple Walls And Trees. Combination of his first temple, (I drew those walls and doors, so I'm familiar with them.) and trees. Shouldn't be a problem.
Position in Overworld: Northwest corner. Situated among cliffs in a deep forest.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
I would include the boomerang. Especially if you want to keep it general. You could make so you get it just before entering to the boss.
Not sure if you should give the hookshot though. Simply because not only can it stun everything, it can stun Wizrobes and Darknuts. Wasn't sure if you wanted to give that ability that early in the quest.
Depending on the size of the dungeon, I would think of maybe giving the raft of ladder. How big do you intend the first level to be?
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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Not sure if you should give the hookshot though. Simply because not only can it stun everything, it can stun Wizrobes and Darknuts. Wasn't sure if you wanted to give that ability that early in the quest.
Kinda relieves the difficulty situation, now doesn't it? ;)
IMHO, ... and this is just for kicks, ... we could make the boomerang an "optional" item. I plan on having just about any crystal switch that you find being able to be activated by anything. (AKA, Flag #90, "Strike Flag.") Thus, if you go through the trouble of getting the boomerang, you'll be able to advance through the dungeon rather quickly without having to get the hookshot first. Of course, you'll need the hookshot to beat the dungeon's boss, so...
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Depending on the size of the dungeon, I would think of maybe giving the raft of ladder. How big do you intend the first level to be?
Considering that the second dungeon will be an elemental type dungeon, the ladder will more than likely be used in the fire/earth areas, while the raft can be used in the water areas. (BTW, I think the "air" portion may be just a very very cold water area.)
First level could be around 50 rooms, possibly. Two floors, definitely. It'll probably end up taking up the lower right and lower left corners of each map, and the upper right corner of Map #1.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
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First level could be around 50 rooms, possibly. Two floors, definitely. It'll probably end up taking up the lower right and lower left corners of each map, and the upper right corner of Map #1.
Are all the rooms going to be on the same map for the floors?
Or will the maps be separate per floor?
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we could make the boomerang an "optional" item.
Sounds good. I guess having the boomer woould just be a plus.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
Having the boomerang as a bonus item rather than as a mandatory item (Which it might yet be. Who knows.) will show everyone that you're allowed to break free from the stereotypical Zelda Quest while designing your own quest. ZC is more than capable of going on a sidetrack to anything in particular. ... whatever that means. :sweat:
The floors/screens will probably be on the same map, as it's much easier to use Autolayer. Okay. Suppose you had floor 1 on map #4, and floor 2 on map #6, and were using autolayer for layer 3. Layer 3 for floor 1 would go on map 5, and 7 for floor 2. However, if you had both floors on the same map, you could refer the whole Dungeon to layer 3. :D
Not only that, but you can likely fit 100% of Dungeon #1 on just three maps if you really, really wanted to. Yes, that's taking the Custom Boss (Which are always huge.) into consideration as well.
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Re: The First Dungeon: Theme.
I vote for the treasure chest dungeon, but as an idea to use later on.
As for a themed dungeon, it might be a little tricky if there can't be some gimmick involved. I know you arn't looking for a wow factor, but what kind of things can you do to make the dungeon different and yet not gimmicky? What about a science lab, or maybe a torture dungeon? How about a dream, and the walls are kind of wavy and there is that "dream" frame? It could have beds and pillows, and maybe some of the puzzles could be making a bed or somthing.