I'm going to be re-jiggering the custom enemy system...

...so it's likely that your Enemies will revert to the defaults in a coming build. Just so you know.

Anyway, my first improvement is combining the enemy types "Walking Enemy, Walker/Shooter", "Goriya", "Bubble", "Zol" and "Zol Tribble" into one single "Walker/Shooter" enemy type.

The misc. flags for this proposed supertype will look like this:

misc1: Attack Type. 0 = normal, 1 = fires weapon on each tile (i.e Fire Zol), 2 = fires weapons constantly (or has homing boomerang), 3 = fires three weapons, 4 = fires four weapons, 5 = fires five weapons, 7 = stream of weapons (Fire Octorok), 8 = fires eight weapons
misc2: Suicide Attack. 1 = splits on damage, 2 = splits on death, 3 = fires eight weapons on death
misc3: ID of enemy to split into.
misc4: number of enemies to split into.
misc5: ID of enemy to "grow up" into after 256 frames.
misc6: Affects how many times it will fire when it stops to fire. No effect if misc1 = 7 or 2
misc7: Status Effects. 1 = temporary jinx, 2 = permanent jinx, 3 = remove jinx, 4 = lose magic, 5 = take rupees, 6 = make Link "drunk"
misc8: Status Effect Strength. If misc7 < 4, then 0 = sword, 1 = item, 2 = both. Otherwise, the amount of magic/rupees to take away.

Also, all of the weakness and resistance flags will work. However, breaking an enemy's shields won't cause it to change tiles unless it has the "Darknut Walk" or "New Darknut Walk" animation types.

Why? Explaining the reasoning why you are doing this.

Because he's making the thing work better? It's a beta, after all.

That said, lack of reverse compatability is a bitch, ya know.

Are you sure you're gonna be able to redo the enemy code needed to get this to work?

I've done most of it already. All I need to do is get the shields to work correctly. Also, figure out why the Gel's movement system is seemingly completely different to the Zol's.

After that, I'll work at uniting Keese and Peahats...

They do seem to move differently. >.>'

I can see why this change would be a nice one. It combines the best and most frequently used attributes of all the enemies into one simple formula.

I must say this could potentially improve the enemy system, since it would ensure that fewer enemy classifications have their own distinct rules, particularly with regards to the "weapon" each uses.

That is, if it's coded correctly. :P If what we have now is just replaced with a bunch of bugs that never get squashed, then of course no one will like it...

Well, if you think it won't cause any problems, I'm okay with it. All the neccesary code is there, its just putting it all together.

And there's NO way to convert the current custom enemies to the new format?

Not unless you guys want to change all the Misc. Attributes for all of the enemies in your quests by hand...

Also, I think I've figured out what the differences in the Gel's movement system are for - it's to make them initially move outward when they're created by a split Zol. So, I think I can bring them into the "Walker" type as well...

I'd rather just have to change to accommodate, than to have to completely remake the enemy. But for all of the pre-made enemies, just reset the misc. atts.

don't like where this is going, its like you're assuming you know what the questmaker wants rather than leaving the decision up to the quest maker.

For the likes of DarkFlameWolf, Why not just add this new "Super Walker" class in and leave all the old classes in? I personally don't care about having to reset the enemies, this new class will allow me to create more unique monsters so starting over almost make sense. Now I just wish Rope, Like like, and Wall Master were thrown into to the mix as well. Guess their arn't enough Misc Attributess.

Question:
What does "Make Link Drunk" actually mean? Does it make the screen go dizzy so its hard to see? Does it reverse controls? Does it make him lose 1 heart per second?

reverse controls

So now, it'll be possible to make the Wind Waker Poes (or at least part of them) without scripting? :tongue: And I agree with redmage777 that there should be a way to use the Wallmaster, Like Like, etc. behavior using misc. flags. But only if it's possible.

What exactly do you mean by "have to reassign all of the misc. attributes for all enemies by hand?" (or thereabouts)

In what situation would this be necessary, and to what purpose? I'm afraid I don't understand.

I'm pretty sure that L wouldn't reset the attributes of ALL the standard enemies to be set by hand. Would you....Only I know a guy who knows a guy who can deal with people like you, if ya know what I mean.:whap:

Well, okay, maybe I could make a routine wherein it takes the old enemies and automatically reassigns their types and misc attributes based on their misc10 and their enemy type... I'm just not entirely sure how complex it will get. Apart from changing the meanings of misc. attributes and shortening the number of types, I've also fixed some default data bugs (such as Darknuts being immune to hammers.)

...actually, now that I've written it down, it doesn't sound as difficult as I thought.

(P.S: Another thing I've done is eliminate the "Rope 2 doesn't flash", "Bubble doesn't flash" and "1.90-style Tribbles" quest rules. For all quests where such rules were set, the appropriate changes will be made to their enemies.)

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Originally Posted by idontknow

Question:
What does "Make Link Drunk" actually mean? Does it make the screen go dizzy so its hard to see? Does it reverse controls? Does it make him lose 1 heart per second?

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Well, it's a feature that's been commented out since before I arrived. What it does is make the screen wavy and randomly mess with the controls.

Although, maybe I'll add a "reverse controls" status effect as well.

^Sweet! I've been waiting for a status ailment like that for a very long time! Maybe another ailment where it makes the entire screen, including all combos & sprites, shades of red (or perhaps a pallette of your choice) and Links health starts draining--a POISONed effect!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by _L_

(P.S: Another thing I've done is eliminate the "Rope 2 doesn't flash", "Bubble doesn't flash" and "1.90-style Tribbles" quest rules. For all quests where such rules were set, the appropriate changes will be made to their enemies.)

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I don't like this at all. It will make it more difficult for people who want that behavior but don't want to edit enemies. I'm all for adding new features like the enemy editor, but please don't take away features.

Whattaya mean, "people who don't want to edit enemies"? It isn't programming, it's a checkbox labelled "Is Flashing" in the editor. Next you'll be telling me that I shouldn't remove* the "Starts with 999 rupees" quest rule because some people don't want to use the Init Data box.

(At the worst, there will be two-step tutorials for these things!)

*Retaining backwards-compatability, of course!

YAY, now my rope 2's that look like non-flashing rats will NOW FLASH NOW! OMEG, Super radiation exposed rats that flash because I can't do a friggin thing via quest rules that are taken out and we are forced to use the enemy editor to fix things!

_L_, leave the quest rules IN. You're making everyone angry at you. AGAIN. I could care less about where I have to edit that for the enemies, but please, for the sake of everyone here, LEAVE THE QUEST RULES IN, but also put in those checkboxes. Let me give you an example of what the rules could instead do:

These rules would instead simply auto-check the boxes for the enemies the rule apply to. They could uncheck it at will (So they could have enemies that apply to the rules go against the rules and those that go with them, like having Ropes that flash and those that don't), but if the rule was off, they'd have to MANUALLY check the enemies' checkboxes for the rules.

Geez. It takes all of 10-30 seconds to open an enemies data and check a chck box. You can do ten of them in, like, five minuites.

It would be nice to get the enemy editor working 100% before taking out any quest rules. *sigh*

I'm sure there's some sort of logic in _L_'s actions that is inherently difficult for people to see. Very understandable, really, ... I'm having some trouble seeing the rationality behind them myself, but I think I'm at least a little closer than I would've hoped to seeing it.

Okay. While _L_ just said that backwards compatibility would be maintained, (Which I assume would be accomplished through having a checkbox automatically checked in the enemy editor for those select enemies, similar to how some quest rules were automatically checked when you opened up the rules pages.) so you wouldn't have to worry about that, as it'd take the status from your quest in its previous beta / version of ZC and compare it to its status in the enemy editor, and maintain the toggled state between both. So you really wouldn't need these quest rules at all, as you're basically having more control over what the quest rules exhibited, but in a somewhat less IN YOUR FACE way.


Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to fantasize about making a stone golem that moves at half the rate of a darknut but has six times the hit points. <3

I SERIOUSLY wish we could alter knockback though. =/ I mean if you slash your sword through goo, (Zol/Gel) it does not get pushed back. > <.

It really isn't that big of a deal to edit behaviors such as rope 2 flashing in the editor, provied there is a part of the tutorial that explains how it is done. I think getting rid of some of the obsolete quest rules can help cut that page down from 8 pages of rules.

Although Petoe does make a good point as well.

Personally, I hate the quest rule system so anything that'll force people to stray away from that is okay in my book. I do worry about backwards-compatibility though.

Instead of having misc. attributes, can we get rid of them altogether & replace them with drop down menus? It'd be almost like the flags--a giant list of drop down properties, perhaps even a couple pages of them.

Take the 'Bubble' property for example. Instead of choosing Bubble type & then putting in a 0, 1, or 2 for temporary, perminent, or remove jinx, there would be the word "Jinx:" followed by a drop-down menu with the following options:
-Temporary Jinx
-Perminent Jinx
-Remove Jinx

Other properties & their available options could be:

Attack Type: a. Normal b. Trail c. Constant d. Triple weapon e. quadruple f. 8-Way g. Stream

Jinx Type: a. None b. Sword c. Item d. Drunk e. Sword & Drunk f. Item & drunk g. Sword & Item h. All

Take Rupees--this would be a box with up to 3 digits in them (so a max of 999) and you put in a number from 0 to 999. If 0, then this enemy takes no rupees--this way, it can take rupees in addition to doing a jinx.

Take Magic--similar to above, you enter in amount of magic & that's how much it takes. Perhaps only ranges from 0 to 9. This way, an enemy can take rupees, magic, & jinx you all at once!

Suicide Attack: a. Split on Damage b. Split on Death c. 8-way weapon upon Death

Enemy Splits Into: This would be followed by a small text field to enter in an enemy I.D. of the enemy to split into (as in tribbles)

Copies: Enter in a number from 1 to 9--this is how many copies of the above enemy this enemy splits into.

I think you get my drift by now--my point is that all these options are feasible with drop down, or text-field menus so that you don't have to memorize what each misc. attribute does.

Either that, or include some sort of intra-ZQuest documentation for the possible values and translations of these misc entities in case people don't know to check the pinned thread to get those values.

I'm still totally in favor of that rollover help system. :p

How about a compromise...

Take the quest rules out...

but ...

Make a new dialog with buttons (matching those quest rules) that, when clicked, set the appropriate enemy flags on the appropriate enemies. That way, you can set them pretty much as you did before, or edit enemies manually.

Best of both worlds.

Also, I'm betting that if I, jman, or koopa had made the same suggestion (changing some quest rules to something else, which, by the way, has been done before), not as many people would have had a problem with it. It's just that L suggested it, so it must be bad. :rolleyes:

Well, this topic is the one that really stirred the beehive. Everyone is paranoid now due to it. :)
http://armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=95953

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Originally Posted by jman2050

Personally, I hate the quest rule system so anything that'll force people to stray away from that is okay in my book. I do worry about backwards-compatibility though.

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I don't want to sound like a bandwagon (fillinblank) here, but jman basically said exactly what I was thinking.

The important issue isn't whether users are required to open up the enemy editor and make a small (and very simple) change. This issue is whether the requirement to do so makes it impossible to play a version 1.92 quest (for example) in the version 2.5 ZC player, without opening it up in ZQuest 2.5 to manually update it.

I don't know TOO much about programming, but it sounds like this conversion could become a big problem unless you specifically address it. So just make sure you address it when you do it, that's all.

Personally, I agree that it isn't unreasonable to ask questmakers to open the enemy editor when they want to edit the friggin' enemies. :P Just so long as it doesn't require them to mess with the confusing "Misc. Attributes" that for the most part can't be used without an attribute reference chart (in their current state, at least).

You know, whats the big deal with backwards compatability. If you want to play1.90 quests, just keep a copy of 1.90 along with 2.5.

Something I didn't realise at all until today: the Ghini 1 uses a completely different movement system to the Ghini 2.

Hence, I can merge the Ghini 1 into the Walker type, and the Ghini 2 into the Floater type (along with Keese, Keese Tribble and Peahat.)

Is the Floater type going to have most the special attributes of the walker type (Shooting, Jynxs ect?) and Do you have plans to do a Jumper Type as well?

Yeah, pretty much. Take the Walker's misc. atrributes and change misc6 to the following:

misc6: 0 = Keese, 1 = Peahat (invulnerable in flight), 2 = Ghini 2 (same as Keese, but doesn't cast shadows and "fades in" when created)

Also, the "Ghini 2 Flickers" and "Ghini 2 is Translucent" rules are departing as well - and in their wake comes two enemy flags which allow any enemy to be flickering and/or translucent.

Doublealso: if I can, I'm going to merge the Like Like with the Walkers as well. Engulfing will be another Status Effect. And yes, before you ask, a Rupee Like effect will also be possible.

Triplealso: The "Rate", "Halt Rate", "Homing" and "Step" variables are now used by the Floaters. Here's what they do:

* Rate: How often it changes direction in flight... I think. 2 for Keese, 4 for Peahats.
* Halt Rate: How long, in frames, it rests on the ground. 0 for Bats.
* Step: 5 for Keese, 8 for Bats. Influences flight speed.
* Homing: The comments call this variable "graduality". The smaller it is, the faster the floater accelerates and decelerates. 0 for Bats, 16 for Keese.

If you are going to do this, it's best to make it as error free as possible.
Such as making the boxes dropdown instead of typed in. Also have what the misc attribute does next to the number. Right now it is confusing and I hope you at least consider this.

I like the additions and changes being made. Like I usually say, though... "as long as they are stable..."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amaster42

You know, whats the big deal with backwards compatability. If you want to play1.90 quests, just keep a copy of 1.90 along with 2.5.

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As far as the ZC player goes, it'd mostly be a big deal for the casual gamers who download ZC just to play quests. Questmakers are more willing to download and install multiple versions of ZC, for various reasons. Casual players want one version to handle all .QST files.

And I certainly hope you didn't mean to refer to ZQuest, because not being able to open older quests in ZQuest would quite piss off some questmakers... And yes, I know a handful who have quests in 1.90 because they think it's more stable.

But I dunno... the best answer is because that's what Zelda Classic does. That's what makes it "Classic."