Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
Note: I haven't finished Hero of Dreams, and in fact have only managed to reach the... [counts on fingers]... fifth dungeon's front door. If any of the following assertions about its interpretation of Zelda continuity are counteracted later in the game, please accept my apologies. I agree that it's a remarkable quest, and I'm impressed by its attempts to position itself within the official Zelda storyline. However, I count the following flaws in its interpretation:
It is said in Hero of Dreams that the Hero of Courage "did something that no other hero could" - completely destroy Ganon. Bah, I say! This statement disregards three aspects of the Zelda storyline.
* Firstly, it is stated in Zelda 2 that Ganon, far from being destroyed forever, could be simply restored with a sprinkle of Link's blood on his ashes. This is important when compared to the third aspect.
* Secondly, it rewrites the Hero of Light's defeat of Ganon, which used a silver arrowhead in a manner identical to that of Courage's. I presume this was because the author didn't know how to explain Ganon's reappearance in Legend of Zelda if he was apparantly "completely destroyed" in A Link to the Past.
* Which leads to the third aspect: the ability of Ganon to be revived even after his complete destruction is established in the Oracles (which can be fitted snugly into the continuity just after A Link to the Past - or, at a stretch, after Zelda 2) where a reincarnation of Twinrova temporarily brings back Ganon.
Thus, the logical thing to do is to insert a successful revival of Ganon into the Legend of Zelda backstory, rather than rewrite A Link to the Past's ending such that Ganon somehow survives.
Also: it is asked how the Hero of Light was able to defeat Ganon if Ganon held the full Triforce. The excuse given by HoD is that Ganon "was careless". I don't find this a compelling reason at all. Consider that the Hero of Light had both the Master Sword (which can resist the Triforce's magic) and the Moon Pearl (which can also resist the Triforce's magic.) The combination of both provides a much better (though still not completely airtight) reason why even the holder of the complete Triforce couldn't beat the Hero.
Also, there are inherent (and frankly insoluble) problems in including both the Hero of Winds and the Hero of Light in the same game. You see, the Link to the Past interpretation of the Imprisoning War differs in one important respect from the Ocarina of Time interpretation of the Imprisoning War: in Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf only acquires the Triforce of Power, whereas in A Link to the Past's backstory he acquires the full Triforce.
This, I feel, is evidence enough to believe that halfway through Ocarina of Time the Zelda plotline "forks" away from the continuity set by A Link to the Past toward the continuity that Wind Waker would later pursue. (In fact, I might opine and say that the the battle against evil in which "the Hero of Time did not appear" may be the OoT-WW line's version of the events in A Link to the Past.)
But this, of course, means that the Hero of Light and the Hero of Winds cannot exist in the same history. Oh well.
It doesn't, however, necessarily mean that the Hero of Time is also incompatable with the Hero of Light - A Link to the Past's description simply holds that the Hylian Knights protected the sages, and doesn't eliminate the possibility that the Hero was, or was among, them.
(No, I don't reckon that the storylines of Twilight Princess or any other games are going to come storming in and reunite the forked continuity lines, because it's unequivocal that A Link to the Past's backstory is intended to be the OoT Imprisoning War.)
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
You really know your Zelda timeline... and knowledge of every game in the Legend of Zelda series...
Look at the quests of ZC...
These are all custom made Zelda quests (Oh wait... doh!). These continuity problems can be found in just about every single other zelda quest out there. Correction: THOUSANDS could be found in just about every ZC quest made... except for the remakes of the original, second, and third quests. But of course... considering this is considered one of the greatest quests of all time, I suppose it's completely fair and reasonable to criticize it for its continuity problems.
Then again... when a person creates his or her own ZC quest that has a storyline to it that pertains to the original storyline, it's like creating your own fanfiction. For me, just to pretty much avoid all problems with continuities, I have my quest called "The Alternate Hyrule", which will revolve around well... an alternate version of Hyrule. However, it will still have continuity problems... But again: fanfic. In a fanfic, you can practically do whatever you want, because it's not going to be part of the real storyline of the LoZ series. It's not just your own little book... it's your game. Design it however you want.
Hmm... you'll probably find more continuity problems as you progress towards the end of the game. However, you will find several explanations to one or two of these problems... maybe more, but whatever.
EDIT:
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Originally Posted by _L_
The excuse given by HoD is that Ganon "was careless".
That's Shoelace's way of saying Ganon sucks (Bloody pig). Seriously, he got killed by freaking deku nuts in OoT! I'm not kidding!
But yeah... your reason would probably be better and more fitting, as Ganon didn't suck in ALttP and TWW.
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
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Originally Posted by WindStrike
That's Shoelace's way of saying Ganon sucks (Bloody pig). Seriously, he got killed by freaking deku nuts in OoT! I'm not kidding!
Hey, I liked the Deku Nuts. ;) I hope they return in Twilight Princess.
Anyway, _L_, these are... custom quests. Of course they won't fit the Zelda timeline. Also, Nintendo themselves said that there is no official Zelda timeline!
But that was an interesting read... But I appreciate how you tried to disprove HoD's fit into the timeline. But none of them do.
Let's just say each quest is an alternative to the original Zelda. ;)
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
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Originally Posted by
Pineconn
But none of them do.
What! Zelda 2 is a direct continuation of Zelda 1! Wind Waker was custom-measured to fit after OoT! And OoT was designed to be a pseudo-prequel to LttP! And you say that none of them do?
For more information, see Zelda Legends continuity theories. What I outlined in the top post is a variant on NOA Order with the Wind Waker storyline being parallel to LttP.
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
Wait and see the rest of the story for this quest before you make too many comments on it. It may fill in some of the holes. Most quests made here won't follow the actual timeline... probably because it's still disputed in many ways (see the thread in the Gaming forum). Shoelace did a nice job giving his quest some twists and turns that I found quite enjoyable. Just sit back and enjoy. I personally am not that worried about story continuity when it comes to custom quests. After all, who says it's the same Link?
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
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It is said in Hero of Dreams that the Hero of Courage "did something that no other hero could" - completely destroy Ganon. Bah, I say! This statement disregards three aspects of the Zelda storyline.
* Firstly, it is stated in Zelda 2 that Ganon, far from being destroyed forever, could be simply restored with a sprinkle of Link's blood on his ashes. This is important when compared to the third aspect.
* Secondly, it rewrites the Hero of Light's defeat of Ganon, which used a silver arrowhead in a manner identical to that of Courage's. I presume this was because the author didn't know how to explain Ganon's reappearance in Legend of Zelda if he was apparantly "completely destroyed" in A Link to the Past.
* Which leads to the third aspect: the ability of Ganon to be revived even after his complete destruction is established in the Oracles (which can be fitted snugly into the continuity just after A Link to the Past - or, at a stretch, after Zelda 2) where a reincarnation of Twinrova temporarily brings back Ganon.
Thus, the logical thing to do is to insert a successful revival of Ganon into the Legend of Zelda backstory, rather than rewrite A Link to the Past's ending such that Ganon somehow survives.
Well first off, I do mention that the legends have been past down for so long, that the legends may not be 100% true. But anyways, let me explain some things:
The Hero of Courage says that he did what no other Link has done. Some of the Hero's in the timeline have thought that they had killed Ganon, however, that wasn't the case. The Hero of Courage even says it himself, he can still be brought back by sacrifice. Go to the HoC and read that again, I do say Ganon can come back. So that means Ganon, can be killed, however, he can still be brought back to life if a person from the "Bloodline" being sacrificed. So, yes in my opinion Ganon did die in aLttP, just he was just brought back. :P
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Also: it is asked how the Hero of Light was able to defeat Ganon if Ganon held the full Triforce. The excuse given by HoD is that Ganon "was careless". I don't find this a compelling reason at all. Consider that the Hero of Light had both the Master Sword (which can resist the Triforce's magic) and the Moon Pearl (which can also resist the Triforce's magic.) The combination of both provides a much better (though still not completely airtight) reason why even the holder of the complete Triforce couldn't beat the Hero.
Also, there are inherent (and frankly insoluble) problems in including both the Hero of Winds and the Hero of Light in the same game. You see, the Link to the Past interpretation of the Imprisoning War differs in one important respect from the Ocarina of Time interpretation of the Imprisoning War: in Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf only acquires the Triforce of Power, whereas in A Link to the Past's backstory he acquires the full Triforce.
I said the reason why Ganon was able to be defeated because he was careless. I do believe that. He had more power than Link, it is just he had thought just because he had the power, he wasn't going to be defeated by Link. He took Link to lightly.
About the Imprisoning War, that takes place before Ocarina of Time. I don't remember it saying Ganon got only the Triforce of Power. It doesn't say anything about it, from my understanding. All it said is that there was a war of all of the races that Ganon was a part of, and that Link's Mom, had been injured during the war. I don't remember anything being said about him getting the Triforce of Power. In Ocarina of Time itself, he got the Triforce of Power, however, it didn't say he did in the Imprisoning War. For all we know, Ganon could have got the whole Triforce during the Imprisoning War. Nintendo may still make a game called The Legend of Zelda: Imprisoning War and finally explain it. So, can you tell me where they said Ganon got the Triforce of Power in the Imprisoning War, in the game?
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This, I feel, is evidence enough to believe that halfway through Ocarina of Time the Zelda plotline "forks" away from the continuity set by A Link to the Past toward the continuity that Wind Waker would later pursue. (In fact, I might opine and say that the the battle against evil in which "the Hero of Time did not appear" may be the OoT-WW line's version of the events in A Link to the Past.)
But this, of course, means that the Hero of Light and the Hero of Winds cannot exist in the same history. Oh well.
It doesn't, however, necessarily mean that the Hero of Time is also incompatable with the Hero of Light - A Link to the Past's description simply holds that the Hylian Knights protected the sages, and doesn't eliminate the possibility that the Hero was, or was among, them.
Well since I don't remember them saying anything about him getting only the Triforce of Power in OoT, I didn't see the evidence for the "split" storyline. I just don't see a split storyline logical. The Hero of Time didn't show up that one time, I think because he wasn't alive anymore. Old age. Twilight Princess may connect it a little more by the way. But I am not sure, as the game hasn't came out.
I still think that the Hero of Light and Hero of Winds do exist in the same history. I am going to try to connect them even further, with my series. I am still not seeing any problems why my game to this theory.
As I said time in and time before. My grammar and spelling sucks bad. So I couldn't express my timeline to its fullest on HoD. However, towards the end of HoD, you will see things to start to make sense. I tried to keep this post clean of spoilers of HoD, so that you will not read any twists in the game. Also, my next games will explain a lot of things that I purposely left out. For example, the connection between LoZ and aLttP. So yes, I do explain Ganon's thing between those games.
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
I thought the Imprisoning War was the 7 year period of time from when Ganon entered the Sacred Realm in OoT to when he was defeated by Link and trapped in another dimension by Zelda in the end of the game. If that is the case, then Ganon does only have the Triforce of Power based on the story Zelda tells Link right before she is captured and brought to Ganon's Tower. This is where she reveals herself to Link and identifies herself as the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom and Link as the holder of the Triforce of Courage as well.
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
No way. I have to look up the Imprisoning War again. Weird if it was the 7 year period. Because I am playing the game again, right now actually. And I am up to the Shadow Temple, and there is no mention of the Imprisoning War being that 7 year period. I think the Imprisoning War has to be in a different time. I know OoT, as I was one of the goofs that was searching for the Triforce for 2 years. lol. But I don't remember this Imprisoning War thing being the 7 year period. Anybody confirm this?
Edit: By the way, doesn't aLttP's manual say that when Ganon got the Triforce. They made the Master Sword AFTER he had gotten it. Which wouldn't make sense because Link got the Master Sword before Ganon got the Triforce in OoT. It just doesn't fit. For all we know, the Imprisoning War could have been after OoT and TWW. It could be. Ganon could have came back and did that whole thing, with the getting trapped in the Golden Land again. Or like I said, it could have been before OoT. The sages could have been descendants, which would still make sense.
It is hard to debate about this storyline, because Nintendo most likely doesn't know how to piece it. However, I am 100% sure that Nintendo wouldn't go with the split storyline. It just doesn't make logical sense. It just doesn't seem like Zelda is the type of game that would have that. Plus, when the present day people find "the legends", how would they know about the legends that aren't even in their timeline. They would never know about it.
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
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Originally Posted by
Shoelace
No way. I have to look up the Imprisoning War again. Weird if it was the 7 year period.
Well, it's called the Imprisoning War because it's the war that imprisoned Ganon in the Dark World.
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Because I am playing the game again, right now actually. And I am up to the Shadow Temple, and there is no mention of the Imprisoning War being that 7 year period.
Nobody in OoT calls that period the Imprisoning War because obviously the name "Imprisoning War" could only be applied after the fact.
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Edit: By the way, doesn't aLttP's manual say that when Ganon got the Triforce. They made the Master Sword AFTER he had gotten it.
Let's see what Zelda Legends says:
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Happily, this inconsistency does not exist in the Japanese version of ALttP. The Japanese manual says: "it could not be assumed that only a good person would get their hands on the Triforce. For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane." A few sentences later, the Japanese manual tells how, once Ganon came to power, "the Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it." So, according to the Japanese manual, the Master Sword was made long before Ganondorf's appearance, in case somebody evil got the Triforce. This accords with what we know about the Master Sword in OoT.
There you go: since this detail was invented by NOA, OoT's facts automatically overrule it.
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Well since I don't remember them saying anything about him getting only the Triforce of Power in OoT
What!?
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Originally Posted by Zelda, Ocarina of Time
The Triforce separated into three parts. Only the Triforce of Power remained in Ganondorf's hand.
So, to recap:
* End of OoT: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
* Beginning of WW: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
* Beginning of LttP: Ganon has the complete Triforce - and most importantly, he has not been released from the Dark World since the Imprisoning War.
This is my case for a split timeline.
To clarify:
Code:
OoT (first half)
/ \
LttP Imprisoning OoT (last half)
War |
| |
| |
LttP WW backstory
|
WW
However, Zelda Legends disagrees with me here!
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This issue might be more a matter of assumption. As my pal TSA likes to say, show me one quote in ALttP that says certainly and finally that Ganon has the whole Triforce in ALttP. Sure, it is implied, but it is never actually stated.
My response: this is silly. The complete Triforce appears at the end of the game after you defeat Ganon, therefore Ganon must have had all three pieces. But if you want evidence, look no further than those statues in Ganon's Tower, depicting Ganon holding three yellow triangles. The message is pretty clear.
Also, LttP never once makes a distinction between any one of the individual Triforces, and always refers to the complete Triforce. To selectively decide when and how it uses the word "Triforce" is overstepping one's bounds of interpretation.
Source: A Defense of the OoT/ALttP Connection.
EDIT: Even more arguments (but not all that I agree with) for a split timeline can be found HERE.
Re: Continuity Problems in Hero of Dreams
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Well since I don't remember them saying anything about him getting only the Triforce of Power in OoT
I worded that wrong. I know that Ganon gets the Triforce of Power. Now, I forgot what I meant... I will edit if I remember.
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So, to recap:
* End of OoT: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
* Beginning of WW: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
* Beginning of LttP: Ganon has the complete Triforce - and most importantly, he has not been released from the Dark World since the Imprisoning War.
What I am thinking is Nintendo just screwed up the storyline, and is trying to fix it right now. Is there any evidence on the split storyline, because I just don't see it logical. Because again, there can be another Zelda game that fits the Beginning of aLttP.
Because you said yourself, Ganon hasn't been released from the Dark World since the Imprisoning war. But what about The Wind Waker and also TP?
Plus, the Triforce is in the Dark World (all of the pieces). In OoT, he only had one piece, so how did that work, if he never got out to get them?
Also, your split storyline doesn't make sense. You said it is split like this Adult Link and Child Link right. If the split storyline is true, then Ganon would have never got stuck in the Dark World right in Child Link's side. As Link went back to tell Zelda about Ganon's plot, thus the Triforce being stolen never happened. However, in the Wind Waker it says that he did, and he got out, and they called open the Hero of Time, but he never came. If Link had never done anything to be the Hero of Time and Ganon was never in the Dark World as Child Link, then WW can't follow.
Adult Link's story would have to be the one with the Imprisoning War in your theory and that is why WW can't follow because you said Ganon never got out. So that means WW is no where in the split storyline.
Anyways, it looks like we both have problems with your things. However, I did try my best to piece it together. I purposely left out the Imprisoning War out of HoD because I wanted to see what TP had to say about it. And I am going to continue to try to piece it together. I know not everyone is going to argee with my because the zelda storyline is very debateable. Anyways, hopefully you are enjoying the game so far and hopefully the ending with clear a little bit of things up. I need to get some sleep, I will check back later. :P