Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
You know, the actual truth is more horrible. A vengeful God wouldn't be too bad, but Beldaran, you act as if these ideas come from on high, even though you detest religion. And we must realize that religion is not at fault for this horrible truth, which is that human beings actually came up with this nonsense all on their own, without any help from any divine being. Oh sure, they went back and used God to justify it, but religion didn't inspire them to create the rules, as they were the ones to create the religion.
I know it's something of a chicken vs. egg argument, but it seems to me that it's human nature that's screwed up, and religion is merely a symptom, not the disease.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beldaran
God is evil if old testament law is his idea of justice. It's so screwed up and horrible. Puting a woman to death for commiting adultery is horrendous. So is putting a child to death for talking back to his father. Those people were screwed up morons.
Just an observation, what gives you the right to decide what is evil over God?
And to defend religion, I don't see Jews going out and killing adulterers.
Jesus taught love, not strict regulation of law and tradition.
That law was for that time, it obviously does not work now.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
As you've pointed out yourself, AtmaWeapon, the Bible and all religious texts have sections which we're not supposed to take literally if we are to do what is right and good. This means we must have a standard of morality seperate from any religious text. Therefore religion is unneccesary. As Beldaran has said, religion is undesirable too because of the evil things often done in its name.
My point is that if we don't subscribe to a God, religious people cannot claim to be morally superior or logically superior. This doesn't make them wrong, but it does mean they shouldn't say that everything would be better if we followed religion X.
And with the quotations you dismissed, I agree, they're taken out of context. But when people follow what their holy text or standards say, they also take it out of context because language is not perfect.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rock_nog
You know, the actual truth is more horrible. A vengeful God wouldn't be too bad, but Beldaran, you act as if these ideas come from on high, even though you detest religion. And we must realize that religion is not at fault for this horrible truth, which is that human beings actually came up with this nonsense all on their own, without any help from any divine being. Oh sure, they went back and used God to justify it, but religion didn't inspire them to create the rules, as they were the ones to create the religion.
I know it's something of a chicken vs. egg argument, but it seems to me that it's human nature that's screwed up, and religion is merely a symptom, not the disease.
I completely agree. The insane garbage in the bible lends itself to the notion that people made it up.
Phattonez, I don't need the "right" to decide what is evil. I have a brain and I can make decisions for myself. I think killing children is evil. If you would allow a magic book to convince you otherwise, then you truly are mentally vacant.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
Bel, you're missing my point because of one statement. Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean that religious people follow it word by word. Jews don't go around killing around adulterers. They can obviously make up their own minds. That law was a product of its time.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phattonez
Jews don't go around killing around adulterers.
But they used to, which further demonstrates the depravity of belief. Also, muslims still do this. I've seen multiple stories of women being stoned to death by the community in which they live because of accusations of adultery, even when those accusations had no proof at all.
Religon is despicable and vile, and anyone who believes in anything is an accomplice.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
But it shows that they obviously don't follow the law blindly. Look at the teachings we've had since then, especially what Jesus said about "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." It's something that all of us should follow.
I guess that shows why I'm not a Jew and why I follow the teachings of Jesus. You can't say that there's anything wrong with what Jesus taught.
You know, I don't even know what I'm arguing anymore. Bel, I can't account for every religion. It all comes down to who is responsible. Is it my fault that I'm a murderer, or is it because of what someone taught me?
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
Beldaran I still believe you commit a fallacy of composition by suggesting that since some religions commit atrocities, all religions are atrocious.
But if there's anything this thread has taught me it is that you are completely unwilling to consider, even in the slightest, the opinion of other people. I really don't see much evidence that you've even read a word I posted. I've left a pretty easy hole in my points in the hopes that just once, you'd argue from a position other than "Yarr I'm Beldaran and my massive cock means I am correct!" but you failed to respond. The point just got brought up again and I can spell it out for you, because whether you completely missed it or refuse to read my posts the cause is still the ignorance of a bigot.
Judaism was developed in the Middle East alongside several other religions; in fact many customs of Zoroastrianism carried over into Kabbalah, the Judaic mysticism. I stumbled upon one of the similarities in Church, actually. When people begged Jesus to heal Lazarus, He quite literally killed time and put it off and didn't arrive until Lazarus had been dead for four days.
Why wait so long? Well, the commentary I happened to read that day pointed out that there was a Jewish belief at the time that the spirit of the dead lingered around the body for three days, only proceeding to the afterlife on the fourth. By waiting until the fourth day, Jesus demonstrated His power was great enough to pull a soul back to its body even after it had departed the Earth.
Now, what's quite interesting about that is Zoroastrianism, which predates Judaism by a decent margin, always held the belief that the soul lingers near the body for three days, pondering the works it had done in life. Could it be that all this time I've been a follower of Zoroaster, worshiping Ahuramazda under a different name and a belief system that was modified by a culture that saw fit to change it? Who knows.
Also of interest are the numerous times I hinted at how similar all of the religions that developed in the Middle East are with respect to harsh punishments for seemingly innocent crimes. However, we live in a day where a loaf of bread costs less than the average (Western) man's 10 minutes of work. Furthermore, we have advanced medical care and capability to diagnose, treat, and hinder the spread of diseases. People in ancient Middle Eastern cultures had no such luxuries. A thief who stole a loaf of bread could potentially robbed an entire family of their meal for a night; if his theft were committed enough it is possible it could lead to the death of innocents. Of course the punishment for theft was harsh! What of adultery? The most common form of marriage in human cultures is not monogamy. I forget if it is polygyny or polygamy that is more common but that is moot. Why would the Middle Eastern religions all take great pains to punish deviation from what seems to be the natural human relationship pattern? Could it be that someone somewhere realized the spread of many diseases could be hindered by people reducing the number of sexual partners they kept? Could it be that to develop a strong sense of property, their culture needed very strict and clear paternal relationships?
Everything about the "cruel" justice practiced by these religions is a fairly good example of how to maintain political order in an environment where resources are scarce. There is a distinct possibility that everything I hold sacred is nothing more than an elaborate method of establishing a government.
The thing is, even if I'm wrong, I like my system of belief. While I have certainly encountered tough times since becoming a Christian, the decision brought about changes in my life that I believe were positive and crucial in putting me in the position I am in today. I see a lot of unhappy people every day, but lately even when I have several misfortunes happen at once I maintain my chill and go about my life. I believe this calm is of divine origin, but if you want to believe it is just a well-adjusted view of the world that's great.
If you wish to discuss religion with me further you can eat a heaping bowl of dicks with a side of testicles, because I refuse to waste any more time on someone who doesn't even extend the courtesy of listening politely.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
I think, though, that the argument could be made for the idea that people would be stupid, no matter whether they had beliefs or not. You think that if religion went away, suddenly people would start to act in a sane manner? I sure as heck don't get that impression. People would blindly follow science just as much as they blindly follow faith today, never questioning, fighting, killing over conflicts of opinion. Like I said earlier, religion is the symptom, not the disease.
Re: Religion, or the lack thereof
Atma: I read your posts, I just think the "my cock is huge" argument holds enough water to preclude in-depth responses. No, really though, I read your posts. I just don't see anything in them that elevates religion from the swamp of mysticsm to the beautiful plateau of rational thought. I know you make lots of good points. There is a lot to say and consider when you are trying to defend millenia old tribal mysticsm in a century of science and progress. I'm sure your beliefs do make you feel better. I bet I'd feel great if I knew there was a big magic friend waiting to take me to ultimate paradise and that nothing bad really mattered. However, scientifically it is impossible to know that. Personally, I'd rather go to hell with Richard Dawkins than go to heaven with all the ignorant mystics I see going to church. I think a truly scientific mind has to acknowledge there is no scientific evidence for any of the claims of religion, and a truly scientific person does not hold beliefs without evidence. If being logical in this way is a sin that offends god, then I don't care to know that god. I am perfectly comfortable with my unanswered questions. I don't need a magic answer. I don't respect magic answers.
rock_nog: I agree that religion is a symptom of human stupidity. Where it makes itself a distinct and manifestly dangerous meme is the way it behaves like a software virus. It spreads itself from host to host, corrupting mental function, altering behavior in often negative ways, and causing a cancerous intellectual growth on organs of society that might otherwise contribute to progress.
Despite my harsh and bitter tone, I do not hate religious people. Like I said, I view them as suffering from a disease; a mental virus. My bitterness comes from my disgust and heated revulsion at having been raised in fundamentalist religion, and all the ways it has hindered my intellectual growth. I think religion is child abuse. I think that because I am a 25 year old man who accepts the scientific method as the only correct way of understanding and prospering in the universe, and yet I still have recurring nightmares of being tortured forever in hell because from the time I was old enough to speak, the adults in my community continued to teach me that if I ever deviated from my belief I would suffer a fate infinitely worse than death.
That is abuse. It is horrible. The world would be better if every religious person were put on a spaceship and shot off into the cosmos. Would there still be stupidity? Yes. Would there still be horror and war and dispute? Yes. But at least one of the zits of human history would have been cleansed.
Religion has been one of the most horrifying things I've ever experienced, and now that I'm old enough and educated enough to look back on it for what it really is, I have nothing but bile in my mouth. It sickens me, and it should sicken anyone who values reason and truth.