The Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity's Extreme

[James24]

The Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity's Extreme

That's right folks! The Liberation of Hyrule - arguably the most difficult, controversial and notorious quest ever made has returned - with its extreme version! Most normal Zelda players like to think of Lost Isle as their mecca. Well, maybe challenge quest players will come to accept LoH:IE as the equivalent in their world. You may want to get the game and start playing right now, but please read on because what I have to say will save a lot of people a lot of heartache. There is also a new generation of players who might not know about the biggest divide in the Zelda Classic World and what they need to know to avoid it.

You see, there are two distinct types of players who enjoy Zelda Classic. Type A players enjoys graphics, puzzles, a great story line, very low difficulty. The kinds of quests that have rated well with them include DarkFlameWolf's Lost Isle, Russ's Light of the Heavens, Nick and Link's Fairy Dream, Cole's Souls of Wisdom and MBWChampion's Hero of Dreams. The vast majority of Zelda Classic players are type A players simply because Nintendo's Zelda currently is type A - but type A is not always how Nintendo has written Zelda. Arguably, the original Zelda was written for a very different kind of player - type B players.

Type B players are the exact opposite of type A and they like very challenging quests with high difficulty and the rest of the quest including graphics, puzzles, storyline is a nice bonus but isn't very important. DarkFlameWolf affectionately calls us the "insanely gung-ho" players and has written numerous extreme quests intended to cater for our tastes. The kinds of quests that have rated well with them include OUCH!'s Armageddon Quest, my own Liberation of Hyrule, Nightmare's James quests, Phantom Menace's Demo quest, Jerome's the Hero Without a Name, Saffith's Eight Objects and Gleeok's mini-quests. Some even argue that Nintendo's first and second quests are type B due to dungeon 6 in the first quest, the difficult 2nd quest for newcomers, the lack of nice graphics and storyline. Type B players are the minority.

Every time the topic of type B quests comes up, there is a lot of conflict and disharmony and I have thought about the underlying reasons for this. Essentially, there is a cultural misunderstanding at the heart of the problem. In type A quests, the quest maker is assumed to be writing the quest to entertain the audience. In type B quests, the quest maker is assumed to be writing the quest to entertain themselves first and the audience second. In type A quests, the quest maker is expected to let the player win. In type B quests, the player only wins if they are of equal or better ability than the quest maker. In type A quests, the quest maker is expected to adjust the level of difficulty to suit the majority of player's abilities. In type B quests, the quest maker is expected to adjust the level of difficulty to make the quest challenging to themselves. In type A quests, the quest is expected to have bug free and beautiful graphics - the slightest graphical bug is grounds for major criticism and low ratings. In type B quests, nice graphics are not very important and are only of trivial concern. In type A quests, if a few players think the quest is too hard, the quest maker will usually make it easier to suit them. In type B quests, the onus is on the player to improve their abilities if the quest is too hard for them. If you're a type A player I do welcome you to visit LoH:IE on the condition that you respect these cultural differences.

LoH:IE was NOT written for a type A audience and a type A player attempting to play this quest on the assumption that it was written for type A culture will only result in disharmony and conflict. This is not some conjecture or wild theory. This is proven fact - proven by the many comments and ratings about type B quests by type A players available on the database. Highly presumptuously, some type A players expect that anything put on the database is intended for a type A audience and immediately rate something badly when they find out otherwise - completely ignoring the fact that they have only played a tiny portion of the quest. I do not welcome such players to visit LoH:IE. A type B quest maker's truthful and frank answer regarding the playing ability of players who make such comments and ratings is one that can easily ignite conflict and so such situations must be avoided. And the best way to avoid such situations is for type A players to refrain from playing LoH:IE. To that end, I will not be putting LoH:IE on the database.

In accordance with type B culture, LoH:IE is solely intended to entertain myself and a small type B audience of Zelda experts. It is NOT intended to "have a go" at type A players. There is nothing for a type A player to see in LoH:IE - no fancy graphics, no neat storyline, no puzzles, just a whole bunch of dungeon 6 except way, way, harder. The only thing that a type A player might want to play LoH:IE for is because beating very difficult challenge quest proves that you are a Zelda expert. It is highly unlikely that a type A player will be able to finish LoH:IE without cheating so please don't waste your time trying. It is far better for type A players to accept that they are casual players and not Zelda experts.

If you are a type A player and would like to visit LoH:IE, send me an email (jamesng323[at]gmail[dot]com) and tell me why you want to visit LoH:IE.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______


In the following I address type B "challenge quest" players - my intended audience - only...

I know the truth about you...you who have beaten Liberation, Armageddon and 0 gamed countless other challenge quests. Yes, I know you quite well. Beneath that cold, hard exterior lies a dark, horrible secret. You are a type A player pretending to be a type B player. You beat Liberation by putting on the gold ring, you beat Armageddon by switching quest files so that you could get a gold ring and to prevent deaths in other challenge quests you ended the game and continued. Ever heard of the song "the great pretender"? That's you...

What are you going to do about my taunts? Report me? Rate Liberation badly after having died many times miserably? Put on the gold ring in Liberation, watch a few walkthroughs on YouTube and then lecture and criticize me thinking that you are an expert challenge quest player? Pretend that you've 0-gamed Liberation because it makes you look good in front of everyone else? Rate Liberation badly because you want to be popular amoungst your type A friends who also think its bad? Is that how challenge quest players respond when their ability is disputed? I hope not. There's only one way a true challenge quest player - an expert in Zelda - responds to such taunts. Prove that you are an undisputed authority on all things Zelda.

And that is THE reason for playing my latest, and final, quest - The Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity's Extreme. Play because you want to prove that you are amougst they very best players to have ever played this great game we know as Zelda. Play because you know in your heart that you have mastered all aspects of Zelda gameplay. Play because you have cat-like agility, lightning quick reflexes, the strength of an ox and the cunning of Master Yoda. Play because you know that if you can't beat a challenge then no one else can and its impossible. Play because you love the thrill of a good challenge - the speed, the suspense, the thrill, the adreneline, the disappointment of losing by a tiny margin and the ecstasy of winning.

I promise you, the difficulty in Insanity's Extreme has never been seen in any other challenge quest before. It is at a level far above both Armageddon and Liberation. It is the most intense, nightmarish, brutal, insane, twisted, excrutiating, horrible, merciless, cruel, devilish and painful challenge ever. Its what we love to hate, but we all agree that the type A alternative is not the answer. At the same time, the challenge is intriguing, creative, fun, enjoyable and when you beat a challenge you will be walking on air. A true "stroke of brilliant autistic genius" as Gleeok likes to put it.

Yes, there will be pain and frustration. Most of you will get stuck somewhere along the way and die many times without getting anywhere. The agony that you will feel at this point is indescribable. I experienced it several times during James Quest and then Armageddon Quest. This is the moment that truly defines you. Everyone knows how to win when its easy, but not everyone knows how to win when faced with what appears to be insurmountable odds. With your ironclad resolve and dogged determination, you know that you are a true challenge quest player at heart and you will eventually prevail and emerge a better, stronger player than ever before.

Aside from challenges and difficulty there are secondary reasons to play LoH:IE. I used Radien's beautiful DoR tileset - but don't let the beautiful graphics fool you into thinking its a type A quest. Scripting has allowed me to fix niggling problems and add really nice new features. And there's the story, made a few interesting twists to plot.

I've left this quest unpassworded because challenge quest players said I had an unfair advantage because I know where everything is in the original LoH. You are invited to look around in the quest file to see where everything is especially if you are stuck on puzzles/secrets. Zelda Classic Quest Editor doesn't have a read only mode so if you do decide to make things easier for yourself there isn't much I can do, but don't you dare brag about your win if you do. Modifying my quest for anything except bug fixing (touch wood) is like taking the gold ring in the original LoH - and we all know what to think about players who do that...

Send me an email (jamesng323[at]gmail[dot]com) if you're interested in LoH:IE. Feel free to give it out to other challenge quest players or type A players as outlined above. And please, make walkthroughs of LoH:IE - show me what you're made of. I do welcome all feedback from type B players who have finished the quest, but please, don't give me a type A criticism of "your graphics are bad/buggy" - you know what our culture is.

[Nightmare]

James24, your topic got closed on PureZC. I'm glad you posted this here, because I want to address a few points:

1. Obviously, you're a very good ZC player.
2. You should never insult your fanbase, if you get an infraction at PureZC, it's deserved.

That being said, I think there is a growing problem of making quests for casuals, experienced players, and the elite. It's hard to please everybody in one shot. Everybody has different tastes, everybody has different feelings. Some people like graphics. Some like me, really care the least about fancy graphics, and as long as it looks sensible, it's cool to play. It's why I prefer the Classic Tileset. I am a Zelda 1 person at heart.

As for shutting your big mouth, I suggest someone take out the video recorder and LP his quest, and show it being beat without cheating. This will take care of the problem.

But I do advise one thing: Don't make a quest that goes after the best player. If you do that, you'll end up with people that get 300+ deaths or more. They won't enjoy your quest, they'll put it down. And because they're not paying for it, they'll have no incentive to finish. I made that mistake years ago with James Quest 2 gearing towards TSA.

Otherwise, let the debate begin on some of these topics. It's about time this got addressed.

-James

[Shane]

Why do we need something worse than Liberation of Hyrule.

Not only does it sound like you made it more of a headache, the advertising in itself is one. You came across as a huge ego who thinks he knows the definition of gaming -- specifically the Zelda series -- and challenges in general. Let me tell you, as a person who enjoys a reasonable challenge, I don't think what you made to be a challenge. Like, at all. Throwing in hundreds of overpowered enemies is no challenge. It's lazy design choices that you are trying to get away with through sheer absurdity. A reasonable challenge is something that can't be found in the three infamous words that is "Liberation of Hyrule". Call me this "Type A", I love graphics. I love music. I love story. I love challenges. But I don't like Liberation of Hyrule. It's obviously using graphics outside simplicity boundaries. You are using music that does not fit the heated "challenges" that lay within your quest and there is a story that goes beyond the basics of Zelda 1, but it was poorly executed like most aspects. But does this mean challenges were done well? No. Not at all. I'm going to be completely frank, they were unfair more than anything. And to mock people for beating your pile of "challenges" is just pure salt on a brutal wound. That's not how you treat your "Type B" buddies. If you are wondering why people claim Nintendo is failing -- it's because they think their advertisement quality is poor. Now think about how you are advertising this.

"Zelda expert"? Oh please, like you said, most quests and canon games are "Type A", so how is it that the minority are the superior beings in the Zelda fanbase? A foolish publicity stunt if you ask me. And these "Type B" games that is Zelda 1 and 2 had made use of aesthetics. They made a good soundtrack. They made a good storyline. All of these aspects had a depth of effort put into it. And best part is their challenges were reasonable. If you want a challenge quest, look into why Zelda 1 and 2 are beatable by most. If you want ratings that aren't low, you are going to have to embrace their reasoning or accept your quest isn't liked. There is no reason to degrade opinions here. And for that, I am merely here to defend my right regarding my review on Liberation of Hyrule. I feel as if you just want five stars with every rating, and only that.

That is all, I shall not even repeat my opinion. I hope you consider the same.

That said, good luck with your projects regardless. I hope ratings are in your favor, like any other quest maker would hope for.

[Gleeok]

Anyway, Screenshots:

http://s10.postimg.org/6yh1q7xn9/zelda006.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/6yh1q7xn9/)
In this room you have to kill all the enemies with one candle attack.


http://s30.postimg.org/bc412kvu5/zelda007.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/bc412kvu5/)

http://s2.postimg.org/pcebq15it/zelda008.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/pcebq15it/)
Here, you have to cross the trap with one heart.



That's all there is at the moment because I haven't gotten any farther than that.

Synopsis thus far: It's really hard. So amaze. Much die. Very Stalfos. wow.


James24: You should slightly change the 2-way radio script to not repeat every time you reenter a room. It's really, really annoying. A really easy fix for this have a global array that stores whether or not the message was already displayed. If so, the script just quits. [edit] Okay, I think they quit at a certain point... odd. Must be checking if Link->Item[] or something similar. Still, the nitpick still stands, but I see you've noticed that as well.

[King Aquamentus]

the radio idea is really neat, but maybe it'd work better as an item that gives a message when you use it?

[SUCCESSOR]

I must say I am disappointed that you are holding your own quest hostage. I am a player that enjoys a full experience as well as a decent challenge. I can understand appreciating challenge above all else. I also appreciate that people can be dicks and be harsh and overly critical of anything different. This is the internet after all. I enjoy games that require a great deal of skill. I would play your quest. Would I beat it? Probably not. But then again I can't remember having completed any quest really. ADD is a bitch. Really, what is the point of making a quest if you don't want people to play it?

[Nightmare]

Well, I have to say from the screenshots it looks beautiful, especially for a challenge quest. Unfortunately no one will see that though.

-James

[James24]

What people need to understand is that I wrote LoH and LoH:IE to entertain myself. If my audience is entertained by my quest then I'm happy for them and I'll gladly entertain them because it costs me nothing. But the primary motivation is my own enjoyment. If my audience's suggestions are aligned with my own tastes and enjoyment then I will implement them. But if they are conflicting then everyone should be under no illusions that I will favour myself first. I don't expect any other quest maker to change their quest to suit my tastes over their own and I expect other people to respect my position likewise. Sorry if this sounds harsh and selfish, but its the truth and as a believer in free speech I think its far better I communicate it than hide it. The only concession I will give you is that the quest is not passworded so feel free to change it to suit yourself but it isn't my work anymore if you do that.

I know that various type B quest makers have caved in the past - OUCH! with his AQF and Gleeok once or twice. But as for me...never ever ever ever ever ever ever. I will never make my quest easier to appease everyone else above my own enjoyment. I know that the price I will pay is a very small audience but I am happy to pay that price and that is my decision to make. Please respect it no matter how you feel otherwise.

Gleeok - I never put in anything to disable the noises. They were slightly irritating to me but not enough to motivate me to go through to bother writing code to disable them. You know how it is right? Benefits vs. cost when doing something. Plus there might be occasions when the player wants them repeated, so I decided not to do anything. If you want to disable them please feel free - you have my blessing that its not cheating - but from my limited scripting experience I don't see how it can easily be done with what you're suggesting. If you could teach me and its easily doable, I'd be happy to put that in.

King Aquamentus - did you get a hold of LoH:IE? I don't think the radio can work like that because my intention was to message the player when they touched certain flagged points in the quest and the messages must come at the point to have any meaningful impact.

Nightmare - the graphics were from Radien's DoR tileset - publically available and quite easy to use. Radien even gave me his blessing to use it. Type A players sure have their strengths over us in this area, so I took a leaf out of their book.

[Shane]

I don't think you quite got what I was getting at. I respect your quest making decisions, but that doesn't exactly mean I can not give criticism, regardless if I'm a "Type A" or "Type B". If you believe in free speech, then maybe you should consider letting people freely express what they feel about your work? I have no problem with you making a "Type B" quest, but when you try to degrade "Type A" players and quests - and even gamers and games - by describing them like some inferior inexperienced people and such... That's where I think you're inching across the line between free speech and shoving your opinion down people's throats to avoid hearing their own. I am not saying either "Type" is better, but I am saying this definition of a "Zelda expert" seems kinda flat considering you said yourself the majority of Zelda content is "Type A". That's my point I am trying to get across, and like you said, I want to see some respect on my views and my freedom of speech.

That said, I am highly uninterested in playing your future quests, sorry. Especially after painstakingly beating your quest only to hear publicity stunt mockery. Want some honest advice? Instead of sounding like you want "Type A" players to avoid this quest and then suggest to ""Type A" players disguised as "Type B" players" (which in general, seems kinda silly to target this at "Zelda experts" considering we are on a Zelda-themed site)... just get straight to the point. Making a giant rant with little to no quest content isn't going to make the quest the center of attention. I just feel your post kind of derailed the point of why you are here is all.

Well, this shall be my last post. I promised myself and the staff that the last one would be my last, but I needed to address this. So above all else, I shall resist if another urge rises to avoid derailing the topic somewhat. I do like the sound of your ideas, and some of your screen design has improved since your first quest, but like you said, it ain't for me. But I do like a challenge provided it's got pattern and education. *shrugs*

[Tamamo]

1. You insulted me not to mention everyone else.
2. Remember how I told you I zero gamed your amazing quest.
You said I cheated because I kept retrying to Ninja the Hookshot off the death knight I say fuck you. I swear It was like this was MGS +Ninja Gaiden + Mega Man II on difficult.
3. You refuse to listen Nightmare, he makes Challenge quest for living. You could learn a thing or two from him. >_>
4. You're trying to copycat ouch and are failing miserably.
5. YOLO
6. The quest was overall cheap and disappointing, with excessive amounts of food, stimulants, and mountain dew "or whatever gamer fuel you prefer" anyone could beat it pretty easily. If they have the patience required.
7. You need a lot of patience to complete this quest. Bad idea

[King Aquamentus]

What people need to understand is that I wrote LoH and LoH:IE to entertain myself. If my audience is entertained by my quest then I'm happy for them and I'll gladly entertain them because it costs me nothing. But the primary motivation is my own enjoyment. If my audience's suggestions are aligned with my own tastes and enjoyment then I will implement them. But if they are conflicting then everyone should be under no illusions that I will favour myself first.
Do what you're good at. I respect this. After all, if you don't enjoy it, there isn't much point. Words to live by.


I know that various type B quest makers have caved in the past - OUCH! with his AQF and Gleeok once or twice. But as for me...never ever ever ever ever ever ever. I will never make my quest easier to appease everyone else above my own enjoyment. I know that the price I will pay is a very small audience but I am happy to pay that price and that is my decision to make. Please respect it no matter how you feel otherwise.

I think it is rare to find someone who so incorporates challenge into a quest as an integral part of it. For me, the integral part I enjoy most is probably overworlds. For you, challenge. So its hard for me to see why in your case, but that doesn't invalidate you at all. :)


King Aquamentus - did you get a hold of LoH:IE? I don't think the radio can work like that because my intention was to message the player when they touched certain flagged points in the quest and the messages must come at the point to have any meaningful impact.

as I said, I'm more the explorative type than the challenge type. So no.

[SUCCESSOR]

What people need to understand is that I wrote LoH and LoH:IE to entertain myself. If my audience is entertained by my quest then I'm happy for them and I'll gladly entertain them because it costs me nothing. But the primary motivation is my own enjoyment. If my audience's suggestions are aligned with my own tastes and enjoyment then I will implement them. But if they are conflicting then everyone should be under no illusions that I will favour myself first. I don't expect any other quest maker to change their quest to suit my tastes over their own and I expect other people to respect my position likewise. Sorry if this sounds harsh and selfish, but its the truth and as a believer in free speech I think its far better I communicate it than hide it. The only concession I will give you is that the quest is not passworded so feel free to change it to suit yourself but it isn't my work anymore if you do that.

That make sense. It is perfectly fine to make a quest just for your own enjoyment. However, when you share a quest you are opening the door for feedback, criticisms, and praise. Whether or not you care for any of that feedback is completely up to you. I see that it gets to you a lot. Sadly there are a good deal of people in the ZC community who are cruel and mocking with their criticism especially to those for do not agree with them or don't accept their opinions. Instead of holding back sharing your quest you should just learn to recognize valid criticisms and ignore the rude or unhelpful people. Striking back with equally rude and ignorant opinions just creates more unproductive conflict.

You value challenge above all else. That's fine. You seem to understand that you are in a minority. Most people want more than just a great challenge in a quest. A lot of people have a different opinion on what makes a great challenge. It's fine to only want to hear from kindred spirits but this is an open community. Your wishes aren't going to stop people from sharing their ideas. No one expects you to do anything. That isn't why people share their opinions. It shows true strength to ignore those that are hostile and accept contrary opinions and tastes with grace.

[Goriya]

I know that various type B quest makers have caved in the past - OUCH! with his AQF and Gleeok once or twice. But as for me...never ever ever ever ever ever ever. I will never make my quest easier to appease everyone else above my own enjoyment. I know that the price I will pay is a very small audience but I am happy to pay that price and that is my decision to make. Please respect it no matter how you feel otherwise.
So you enjoy badly designed screens then? Those imply a lack of effort, you can still make a challenge quest while making your screen design at least tolerable, OUCH did this, Nightmare did this, so you sure as hell can too.

Stop assuming that there are "type a" and "type b" players. Why? I don't apply to either category, I'll play whatever as long as it makes for a good recording, but I still at least have a semblance of standards, if a game is too badly designed, it's going to get boring to record, if the game is too well designed, the recording is going to get predictable.

I refuse to record Liberation of Hyrule not because it's "too hard", but because it's too badly designed. I can record things like Armageddon Quest and James Quest just fine because they're actually well designed challenge quests.

If you want to make a challenge quest, that's fine, but the least you could do is take criticism on how to make your challenge quest better, and apply it, after all, your standards one day could be different the next day. The original Liberation of Hyrule, as it stood, was a badly designed challenge, and I have no interest playing the sequel, if you're just going to insult everyone.

[James24]

Maybe I should give people a guide on how to criticize my quests and future challenge quests so that they are taken seriously and not ignored on a routine basis like I normally do. First, you must have completed the quest. It is not enough to say you completed the quest, you must prove it by quoting from specific instances in the quest or by making video walkthroughs. Critics who do not quote from specific instances in the quest firstly make their claims of completion highly dubious and do not assist in any future quest creation. If when quoting from specific instances in the quest, the critic makes some error like claiming to have 0 gamed the quest, then I will immediately think they are saying false things and ignore all of their criticism entirely.

Second, your criticism must not be prejudiced by any perceived or actual insults that I have made. I know that it is incredibly hard for a human to train themselves to "wipe the slate clean" and treat their insulter's quest fairly. But that is what you must do if you ever hope to have me take your criticisms seriously.

Third, your criticism must be independent and not influenced by the criticisms of anyone else.

Forth, your criticisms must not be influenced by any external political gain including insulting me in return for insulting you first and gaining popularity amoungst type A players who also think that the quest is bad.

Fifth, you must understand type B challenge quest culture as I have explained in my initial post. Type A players often criticise my quest solely on its graphics - completely ignoring the fact that the quest wasn't designed to please the eye. So I simply ignore such criticism.

Sixth, it helps if you have a reputation as an expert challenge quest player like Gleeok or Nightmare has - it greatly expedites the tests that I run to ensure the things above are met. But it is not necessary. I hope everyone understands why I do not take criticisms seriously if they do not pass those tests I have outlined above - though I strongly am in favour of people being allowed to make criticism. Likewise, if I reject your criticism based on having failed one or more of the above tests then please don't be offended.

If your criticisms pass those tests, then I test to see if the criticism aligns with my own tastes. If my tastes and the criticisms are in conflict then I will favour my own tastes every time. Then, I check to see how much time/energy I would need to spend implementing the criticism - the longer it takes the less inclined I am to take any action. Finally, any changes I make have to be doable in Zelda Classic which has its limitations even with scripting.

[Shane]

So you are limiting freedom of speech to your will? Riiight.

I'm stepping in again.

No review should be affected by an external source, but I don't understand why someone can't review what they've played. "Cultural misunderstandings" or not, all genuine critique tries to helps no matter how you feel. You can reject it but you cannot deny it or say that it's wrong. It's funny how you say the reviews can't be taken seriously; it's just you that needs to take them seriously. And no author should insult anyone in the first place -- you are ranting about conflict and here you are, trying to start it by admitting insults. And people were trying to merely help you in a way you merely disagree with. That makes no sense and is counter-productive. Sorry, but it's true.

If you want reputation, this is wrong way to do it. If you can't see the truth in reviews, then you are going to keep being angry over nothing.

[Chris Miller]

You can't try to dictate terms on what people may say about your quest. All that will do is alienate what fanbase you've got left. And it comes off as arrogant. It doesn't matter what style you make your quest in, or how hard or easy it is. You will get negative criticism. Allowing yourself to be butthurt results in, well, threads like this. If the criticism is unconstructive, accept it and move on. If it has merit, see if you can make it work. And then move on.

If those who play and enjoy challenge quests dislike your quest, then most likely you need to make some changes. The quest is supposed to be very very difficult. Obviously that's the point of it. But if the design turns it into a grind and forces the player to rely on luck rather than skill, then it warrants changes. Kaizo Mario, for example, is insanely hard, but if you lose, you've got no one to blame but yourself.

[Goriya]

Maybe I should give people a guide on how to criticize my quests and future challenge quests so that they are taken seriously and not ignored on a routine basis like I normally do. First, you must have completed the quest. It is not enough to say you completed the quest, you must prove it by quoting from specific instances in the quest or by making video walkthroughs. Critics who do not quote from specific instances in the quest firstly make their claims of completion highly dubious and do not assist in any future quest creation. If when quoting from specific instances in the quest, the critic makes some error like claiming to have 0 gamed the quest, then I will immediately think they are saying false things and ignore all of their criticism entirely.
With F6ing, I've heard the game is 100% possible to zero game. You can say F6ing is cheating, but what you perceive as cheating, others perceive as an exploit that can be used to help players beat LoH.


Second, your criticism must not be prejudiced by any perceived or actual insults that I have made. I know that it is incredibly hard for a human to train themselves to "wipe the slate clean" and treat their insulter's quest fairly. But that is what you must do if you ever hope to have me take your criticisms seriously.
Oh trust me, my criticisms are not prejudice and will never be prejudice. This applies to any quest that I have played. I will not rate a quest higher because a questmaker is popular, and I will not lower my rating for a quest if I hate the creator. My problems with LoH came before your bad reputation came up, so this argument is still a very bad argument, regardless. [/QUOTE]


Third, your criticism must be independent and not influenced by the criticisms of anyone else.
I agree with this, this applies to any of my reviews.


Forth, your criticisms must not be influenced by any external political gain including insulting me in return for insulting you first and gaining popularity amoungst type A players who also think that the quest is bad.
I don't care about my reputation, because I have no reputation to hold, it's simply respectful to come up with non-biased reviews, and like I've mentioned earlier, I don't apply to either type a or type b's conditions. In other words, I'm a type c player. I know this concept is hard for you to grasp, but everybody is different, there is no concept of "type a" or "type b".


Fifth, you must understand type B challenge quest culture as I have explained in my initial post. Type A players often criticise my quest solely on its graphics - completely ignoring the fact that the quest wasn't designed to please the eye. So I simply ignore such criticism.
If you're acknowledging the problems with the graphics, you know how to fix them, so do it. Nightmare and OUCH have both made tolerable looking overworlds in their quests, so there's no excuse for you not to.


Sixth, it helps if you have a reputation as an expert challenge quest player like Gleeok or Nightmare has - it greatly expedites the tests that I run to ensure the things above are met. But it is not necessary. I hope everyone understands why I do not take criticisms seriously if they do not pass those tests I have outlined above - though I strongly am in favour of people being allowed to make criticism. Likewise, if I reject your criticism based on having failed one or more of the above tests then please don't be offended.
I truly don't understand, because the criteria is far too specific.


If your criticisms pass those tests, then I test to see if the criticism aligns with my own tastes. If my tastes and the criticisms are in conflict then I will favour my own tastes every time. Then, I check to see how much time/energy I would need to spend implementing the criticism - the longer it takes the less inclined I am to take any action. Finally, any changes I make have to be doable in Zelda Classic which has its limitations even with scripting.
Most criticisms I have are doable in ZC. For example, the game is too luck based: Luck is not a challenge.

[Tim]

Regardless of your feelings of getting butthurt, the world is a dick. You can either take the criticism and use it on your next quest or you can sit here and cry how the world hates you.

I see you've chosen the latter.

Why does this reek of Sephiroth?

[Gleeok]

James24: I really wish you would of just posted something like "Hey guys, I finally finished the remastered DX of my quest 'Liberation of Hyrule'! It is the hardest ZC quest in the known universe so you have to be really, really, really good to even have a chance of beating it! So unless you like this kind of challenge then LoH:IE is not for you. You have been warned. It also adds many different rooms and scripts to fix issues with the first quest. Thank you, and enjoy!"

I'm sorry that in the past some purezc members were immature and it seems to of really gotten to you in a bad way. It doesn't even matter anymore what the reasons are. I think it's time for everybody to just let it all go; forget and forgive.

Truth is this quest is very good. Most people won't be able to understand it and even more people won't be able to beat it, but it's still very good non-the-less. James: Thank you for finishing it! :)

[James24]

Gleeok thank you for your comments. They are much appreciated. If you could, please email me in private about the quest if you wish to discuss it further. The way this topic is going it is going to be locked like in purezc sooner or later.

I have achieved what I set out to do. My intended audience is playing the quest and the type As have stayed off and not tried to trick me into sending the quest to them. There is nothing further to be gained by this bickering so I won't be visiting the forums anymore. I will leave with one final comment though:

It seems to me that Zelda Classic players have a culture of entitlement. They seem to expect quest makers to surrender control of their quest making talent and ability to suit their type A tastes "or else". The "or else" meaning bad comments, bad ratings, threats of not playing, rude insults, bad reputation etc... I have not caved in to their demands and I am very proud of that fact. I made LoH:IE my way instead of caving in to the masses like AQF and it is a beautiful quest - enjoyed by a select privileged few players and that is how it will remain. NEVER will I surrender control of my quest and there is nothing anyone can do to change my mind.

[Goriya]

Gleeok thank you for your comments. They are much appreciated. If you could, please email me in private about the quest if you wish to discuss it further. The way this topic is going it is going to be locked like in purezc sooner or later.

I have achieved what I set out to do. My intended audience is playing the quest and the type As have stayed off and not tried to trick me into sending the quest to them. There is nothing further to be gained by this bickering so I won't be visiting the forums anymore. I will leave with one final comment though:

It seems to me that Zelda Classic players have a culture of entitlement. They seem to expect quest makers to surrender control of their quest making talent and ability to suit their type A tastes "or else". The "or else" meaning bad comments, bad ratings, threats of not playing, rude insults, bad reputation etc... I have not caved in to their demands and I am very proud of that fact. I made LoH:IE my way instead of caving in to the masses like AQF and it is a beautiful quest - enjoyed by a select privileged few players and that is how it will remain. NEVER will I surrender control of my quest and there is nothing anyone can do to change my mind.

Let me quote SUCCESSOR, here:

Instead of holding back sharing your quest you should just learn to recognize valid criticisms and ignore the rude or unhelpful people. Striking back with equally rude and ignorant opinions just creates more unproductive conflict.
This is all you have been doing for this entire thread, and it needs to stop. I'm fine with Gleeok defending your quest, but just because one person defends it doesn't exempt you from all criticism. It seems very clear to me, based on your posting pattern, that you're simply trying to cause uproar, just to get a reaction out of people. You have done nothing productive to your own thread, and the only person who has actually been bickering is you. Everybody else's response has been mature, and all of yours revolve around the mentality that "If you're not a part of the quest's audience, you're shit, and don't deserve to give an opinion on LoH."

If your posts were mature, this wouldn't have happened, and leaving the forum simply supports the fact that you're just trying to get a reaction out of people.

[Shane]

Well it's a good thing we weren't forcing you to stop "Type B" quest making and just asking to stop being silly with these little conspiracies of yours. No one done anything except you giving out the "rude insults" to your very own fanbase and giving yourself a "bad reputation" for doing so. How is it me politely saying I won't play your quest a threat? Weren't you even the one forcing us not to even play it? It only goes to show how badly you misinterpreted the whole situation.

But I guess like you said, you are taking leave. So goodbye and good luck with your project's success.

[SUCCESSOR]

Gleeok thank you for your comments. They are much appreciated. If you could, please email me in private about the quest if you wish to discuss it further. The way this topic is going it is going to be locked like in purezc sooner or later.

This topic won't be closed. We don't close topics here because people get into heated discussions. Should anyone violate any of the rules of the forums they will pay the price for that not the thread. If you would prefer you could create a second thread to focus solely on discussion of your quest. It is your original post that opened up the direction this topic has taken.



I have achieved what I set out to do. My intended audience is playing the quest and the type As have stayed off and not tried to trick me into sending the quest to them. There is nothing further to be gained by this bickering so I won't be visiting the forums anymore. I will leave with one final comment though:

You seem to perceive some sort of trickery and spite that simply does not exist. These people you are so accusatory of are simple reacting to your initial hostility and prejudice.


It seems to me that Zelda Classic players have a culture of entitlement. They seem to expect quest makers to surrender control of their quest making talent and ability to suit their type A tastes "or else". The "or else" meaning bad comments, bad ratings, threats of not playing, rude insults, bad reputation etc... I have not caved in to their demands and I am very proud of that fact. I made LoH:IE my way instead of caving in to the masses like AQF and it is a beautiful quest - enjoyed by a select privileged few players and that is how it will remain. NEVER will I surrender control of my quest and there is nothing anyone can do to change my mind.

You seem to completely fail to grasp anything but your preconceived notions. Nobody is asking you to surrender anything. It is a shame you are so defensive and disconnected. I do not wish any quest maker to be alienated from AGN. You can infact share your quest on your terms. As I said make a new thread in the manner Gleeok suggested. I advise leaving off anything controversial to prevent a repeat of what happened here.

[CJC]

Gleeok thank you for your comments. They are much appreciated. If you could, please email me in private about the quest if you wish to discuss it further. The way this topic is going it is going to be locked like in purezc sooner or later.
AGN doesn't lock threads for arguments. That said, each post must contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way.


It seems to me that Zelda Classic players have a culture of entitlement. They seem to expect quest makers to surrender control of their quest making talent and ability to suit their type A tastes "or else". The "or else" meaning bad comments, bad ratings, threats of not playing, rude insults, bad reputation etc... I have not caved in to their demands and I am very proud of that fact. I made LoH:IE my way instead of caving in to the masses like AQF and it is a beautiful quest - enjoyed by a select privileged few players and that is how it will remain. NEVER will I surrender control of my quest and there is nothing anyone can do to change my mind.
I have several statements in response to this comment.

1.) This is not a feature exclusive to Zelda Classic, it is the nature of sharing any creative endeavor
Human beings are--by nature--not a homogeneous mixture. We form a mosaic and each individual has tastes and opinions that may not align with yours. You have even admitted this truth in your rather simple model of type A and type B players. A binary model isn't very effective in representing reality but it goes a long way to presenting my point: you've already acknowledged there are players that aren't going to like your quest, and you built the quest with no intention of appealing to them. So why are you giving so much weight to criticism from those avenues? A gamer that plays nothing but Call of Duty will find a game like Skyrim tedious and--if driven to voice an opinion--will complain that the latter isn't a REAL first person game because it doesn't have firearms. Do you think Bethesda Game Studios would pay such a review much mind? Do you think they would go back and alter their already released product to please that player? Or worse, recall the game because of the negative impression? The answer to these questions is "no".
The fact is, if your quest doesn't appeal to somebody they simply won't play it. No one is going to waste their time intentionally playing a quest that isn't suited to them just so they can bash you with negative remarks. There's plenty of other avenues for entertainment even within our two tiny communities.

2.) Most of the aggression you are experiencing is self-inflicted
Following the closure of my first point, your initial post was incredibly aggressive. You explicitly declared yourself to be part of an exceptional minority and you heavily implied that those who you do not consider to be part of your minority are inferior. This is an incredibly elitist attitude and it seems tailored to incite argument. When you place yourself in a 'top percentile' and thumb your nose at the world, the world is going to grab its torches and pitchforks. There were friendlier ways to convey the message that your quest is hard. For instance:
"This is a quest designed to get continue counts into the triple digits. If you play it, be prepared for lots of broken keyboards, ruined controllers, and frustrated hours of Zelda madness". You applauded Nightmare's quests for matching your style. That's the way HE would talk about a challenge quest.
Casual gamers like a challenge too, even if the challenge turns out to be insurmountable. For instance, I found Nightmare's 5th quest entry to be quite enjoyable even though many parts of it were white knuckle frustrating. I did not do well on the continue count in that quest. Does that make me an 'A' gamer?
No, because like I said before, a binary model is far too simple to fit reality.
When you embark on a creative endeavor and share the fruits of your labor with another person you are making yourself vulnerable. Perhaps it is an unsettling sensation but it is inescapable. Rather than shielding yourself by saying others just don't understand your work, take comfort in the knowledge that your efforts brought you joy and there MIGHT be people out there who will share in that joy. Mend after being wounded, don't attack to prevent an injury. If you do the latter, others will attack back. This is the situation you face now, because you raised your swords before you began.

3.) Once something is shared, it belongs to the ages
An English professor once said something that I found incredibly profound: Just because the author wrote the book doesn't mean he knows anything about it. There are depths to our work that we as creators are unable to see on our own. This is why critical reviews exist, to help us identify our flawed patterns and watch out for them in the future.
Suppose somebody writes a book in a genre you consider to be garbage. You leave a review calling the book a travesty because it doesn't align with your tastes. Should the author pay much mind to your commentary? That depends:
How constructive was the criticism? Were there details from the text that you used to justify your aggravation? If the answer is yes, then the author needs to keep these issues in mind for further works to prevent a deceleration in the growth of the audience. If not, the review can effectively be ignored without consequence. Criticism can hurt, but it can also be a useful tool in finding direction for FUTURE projects. The key is to look past the sting of a harsh statement and find the logic behind it. Perhaps it is useful, perhaps it isn't. But you won't be able to see the logic if you don't look past the surface. And to see past the surface you have to see the surface first.

4.) Troll criticism is easy to spot
Going back to point 2, you can gauge whether criticism is legitimate by the amount of detail present in the review. Someone who made a legitimate effort to examine your work with favorable eyes will sandwich harsh statements between encouraging remarks. On the other hand, someone out to harm you with a review will open with a negative point and let it snowball as they progress. Look for these details, recognize them for what they are, and assign weight to the review accordingly.


So here's my advice: don't cloister you quest. Give people a chance to enjoy it, but also give people a chance to hate it. If they hated it, clearly they played it, which means you've had an impact on their life.

[Tamamo]

I hope I can change your mind about leaving James24. I don't do this with everyone this is me being nice because your quest was the hardest quest I ever played and made everything I've ever played look like a cake walk and that is something I respect. Everyone should create their quest the way they envisioned it and I absolutely agree that we cannot cave into the masses! But we do need to take suggestions of your fans and others into account once and while otherwise you will lose those fans and others which may become fans. Look at it from three perspectives You're intended audience, previous players, and yourself. What would my intended audience think? What would previous players think? And what do I think? As for surrendering control of your quest? What makes you think you have to? You ultimately control how your quest is shaped and formed it's your Game after all, and we respect that. If you don't like a suggestion you can politely respond stating something like "I'm not sure I like that suggestion sorry, perhaps if you can reform it I might like it a little better." Perhaps you should reevaluate your original goals and look back. What we're my original goals when I first started the original quest, what about the remake and if they are different why? I believe you are a good person; stubborn but who isn't am I right, and I hope you will take the time to read this and reevaluate things.

[DarkFlameSheep]

I missed this thread. I know it's late, but post my opinion.

I can say James quests, Demo quest, and The Hero Without a Name are still easy quest, compared with original AQ and LoH.
And Lost Isle, Light of the Heavens, Hero of Dreams, Souls of Wisdom are about as hard as James quests etc sometimes,
I beat Souls of Wisdom's secret dungeon, it have a lot of hard rooms, I can say it's not easy compared with even original AQ.
Also, Eiyuu's boss battles and last dungeon's hover boots actions.
A lot of custom bosses are much stronger than original AQ's bosses.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Anyone who knows my history or played any of my quests knows that I am not anti-challenge or anything. And I'm sure many critics really are whining about this being too hard. That said, it's easy to spot fundamental flaws in this, even by examining your own supporter's statements. Case in point:


Anyway, Screenshots:

http://s10.postimg.org/6yh1q7xn9/zelda006.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/6yh1q7xn9/)
In this room you have to kill all the enemies with one candle attack.

Kill 4 enemies with the Blue Candle, and without exiting the room if I understand correctly. This isn't REAL difficulty, it's FAKE difficulty. Why? Well, you have to wait until they randomly line up just right in order to pass that part. Is there more of this kind of thing, or more fake difficulty in general present? I don't know, but I'd wager if these things are manifesting this early on in the quest, that the answer to both questions is a solid YES. Despite enjoyng a challenge, I must say I wish to steer VERY clear of tis quest. And before anyone accuses me of being a sad, unskilled whiner, here is me, beating my own idea of a very overpowered boss in my own Zelda 3 quest:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we70vbNlB-w

Granted, this takes some guessing, but you can miss nearly 9 out of 10 shots, which you won't if you're observant and know how Gohmas work. So I'm not saying this stuff for no reason, there are fundamental flaws with this "quest", no matter how easy or hard it is.

[Gleeok]

Anyone who knows my history or played any of my quests knows that I am not anti-challenge or anything. And I'm sure many critics really are whining about this being too hard. That said, it's easy to spot fundamental flaws in this, even by examining your own supporter's statements. Case in point:


Kill 4 enemies with the Blue Candle, and without exiting the room if I understand correctly. This isn't REAL difficulty, it's FAKE difficulty. Why? Well, you have to wait until they randomly line up just right in order to pass that part. Is there more of this kind of thing, or more fake difficulty in general present? I don't know, but I'd wager if these things are manifesting this early on in the quest, that the answer to both questions is a solid YES.

It's actually not random. The point is that you can always spawn those enemy types in very predictable places, which you then just have to do a quick maneuver and counter with a multi-hit fire attack. Instead of things like like block puzzles, this quest has enemy and logic puzzles--very creative ones too.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

It's actually not random. The point is that you can always spawn those enemy types in very predictable places, which you then just have to do a quick maneuver and counter with a multi-hit fire attack. Instead of things like like block puzzles, this quest has enemy and logic puzzles--very creative ones too.

Well, if they have a random rate of 0 and a homing rate of 255, I'll admit being wrong about this.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Double posted by mistake.

[James24]

Been a while and I finally got around to updating LoH:IE based on the feedback of a handful of expert challenge quest players. I'm 99% sure that this will be my director's cut unless there's something very wrong with it that I didn't pick up during testing. If you're a fan on LoH:IE then the updated version should be in your inbox right now. I'm here incase anyone got a copy of LoH:IE second-hand and wanted the final version. In that case you should get in touch with me via my email.

I should remind people once again that LoH:IE is an experts-only quest and if you don't possess the requisite playing ability then you should not be playing it. Manifestation of expert playing ability is completion of AQ and the original LoH. Failure to heed this will result in a very distressing and frustrating playing experience. Some of the changes are pictured below and if you don't like what you see then kindly leave this thread right now:

http://i.imgur.com/r7qvloT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qlnWfBZ.png

List of major changes (not all, some minor changes I probably forgotten):
Fortress 1 - You cannot hide in the door whilst fighting the blue darknut.
Fortress 2 - The 1 (possibly 2 if you're really challenged) heart and wooden sword on ice vs 10 red darknut room has been added. The room of 4 teleporting wizzrobes has been buffed to 5 teleporting wizzrobes. You can no longer hide in the door whilst fighting 10 mummies. The room of 10 gels has been nerfed so that rocks no longer fall. Blue crab boss fight redesigned.
Fortress 3 - The 3 hearts and wooden sword vs 3 blue wizzrobes room has been added. In the money gathering section, you may no longer gamble infinitely, reenter rooms nor hide in doorways.
Fortress 4 - Fire gleeok fight redesigned, plus no hookshot for spiked dodongo room. Bat wizzrobe room nerfed so James can use his sword. New superdarknut room.
Fortress 5 - Hookshot can only be acquired once you have the mirror shield to prevent stunning wizzrobes with it in fortress 6.
Rafting/Training - Rewards reduced to a HCP not a full HC - so James will only have 14 hearts max for the whole game.
Fortress 6 - Buying health is now a lot more expensive.
Fortress 7 - Buying health is now a lot more expensive. Gamble room added.
Fortress 8 - You can no longer bypass the first part of the patra room by going to the bottom left corner. Health shop added.
Fortress 9 - Spiked dodongo room nerfed to 4 dodongos since only 14 heatlh max.