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Imzogelmo
11-05-2013, 01:05 AM
I'm not a fan of hand-holding. I'm more of an old-school "make them search for it" kind of guy. Excessive or overly-explicit hints are not my style. In fact, that would not fit in with the original quests anyway. The original game really wanted you to bomb every wall, burn every bush, and push every rock, and I like it that way.

My goals in dungeons: Make people think. Challenge their assumptions. Provide a unique experience. Progressively get harder, but allow some non-linear play also. With those goals in mind, I set about to make this quest. I made a quest that I'd like to see (and I'm a bit esoteric in that way: old-school exploration+challenge meets modern flexibility in secrets, but with minimal new tiles, etc.). If I had a tile-artist, it would be a little better (you'll see what I mean) but overall I'm very pleased with what I've made.

Specific info: There is one new sound effect. None have been changed, but this is a new event that needed a sound. Not a major change, but something worth pointing out. There is also one small script in the game, used merely to prevent a potentially nasty sequence break.

I hope I followed the rules as closely as I thought I did, and, almost as importantly, I hope it is enjoyable. (Also, Puzzle-award, I'm gunning for you!)

Here's my quest entry for the 5th quest contest (updated 2/7/14):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBdWoxQ2FjNXNTMUk/edit?usp=sharing(Click File, Download)


Please post any bugs when they are found so I can correct them. Also, feedback, good or bad, is welcomed. Thanks.

Having said all the above, here are some hints so you can get to the new stuff:
-=SPOILER=-

-=SPOILER=-


NOTE: Links updated Nov. 12 2013 2:14 PM Central. Tweaked a couple of rooms in level 9, also found a few stray enemy->secret flags that were not supposed to be there. Any statues that don't shoot now are merely decorative. Don't feed Pols Voice after midnight.

Updated 11/15/13. Added some extra hints, also removed some stray warps (were unused, so not game-effecting). Current version also is unpassworded.

Updated 2/7/14. Level 4 wall and floor tile oops. Thanks justin1.

Love For Fire
11-05-2013, 05:59 PM
Just finished level 1 and found an extra heart container. Definitely like the style, feels very authentic and the difficulty was good. A couple of things I found: there's a room with some enemies and a blue bubble, but the blue bubble isn't the first enemy on the list so it gets replaced by a Goriya upon return which would suck had you lost your sword in the next rooms. Also are the boss room statues in level 1 for decoration or should they be firing?

Level 2's red dot is not where the triforce is (it's one room above it), don't know if this was intentional or not.

Imzogelmo
11-05-2013, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the feedback. The Blue bubble in that case probably wouldn't be an issue (as there are other blue bubbles in the dungeon), but I will adjust them anyway. The statues in the boss room, I did intend to turn on (I'll have to see if that makes it too tough though...)

I checked my other dungeons for out-of-order bubbles. In some of those I had mis-ordered them too. Some of them I left in, so that backtracking would be more interesting. I am a believer in blue bubbles appearing at least SOMEWHERE in the dungeon if there is a red one. I'm not opposed to making you walk back a few screens, though.

I also found a couple of minor issues to tweak, so I'll bundle these into it. One room in the "Raindrop" level had you locked (shuttered) in a room with Wizzrobes and a large portion of the room is water. If you picked up a clock, you (potentially) could not reach the Wizzrobes to kill them, thus you were trapped. I have fixed that issue along with some tiles incorrectly placed and minor graphics issues.

I will upload a new version tonight or in the morning tomorrow.
New version uploaded, links updated.

-=SPOILER=-

Love For Fire
11-07-2013, 12:58 AM
I'm enjoying trying to figure out the overworld secrets since they are on different parts of screen so you literally have to bomb every wall to find if there is something there or not. I couldn't find a dungeon item in Level 2 yet though I've been to every room so I need to comb that over more carefully. Searching for a white sword or Level 3, and found Level 9.

-=SPOILER=-

Imzogelmo
11-07-2013, 03:16 AM
-=SPOILER=-
[/spoiler]

I hope it's still enjoyable despite the, ahem, bugs. :S

EDIT: Fixed those two issues, reuploaded.

EDIT2: I made it possible to play some levels out of order, so if you find one just a little ahead, you can still try your hand at it. Note that this usually ends up making it harder than it should have been (and you may miss out on a treasure), but having that flexibility is fun to me, so I thought it may be fun to others also. However, note that the same rule does not apply to beating the bosses; some bosses need an item from the same dungeon to defeat them.

Love For Fire
11-07-2013, 10:01 AM
I must have forgotten push flags in item rooms like at least 4 times when I made mine. Every time I would test a new level, ahhhhhh guess we're not getting the Whistle today! lol

-=SPOILER=-

Imzogelmo
11-07-2013, 12:02 PM
i must have forgotten push flags in item rooms like at least 4 times when i made mine. Every time i would test a new level, ahhhhhh guess we're not getting the whistle today! Lol

-=SPOILER=-

-=SPOILER=-


Updated links as of 11/10/13. Found a rather large bug in level 6, making it hard to escape under certain conditions. Also added a "No-clock" script to the game, to be used in 2 rooms where you can be shuttered in with the enemies who may be out of reach of any weapons. Turning on a special screen flag makes the enemies not drop clocks, so you can't be permanently trapped by the clock pickup. Hopefully it hasn't stopped anyone yet. Another issue existed in level 4, where a passage wasn't triggering correctly, due to undercombo mistakes. Fixed those, should be good to go now. And finally, I screwed up a flag in level 7 that controlled a passageway, so it should be possible to pass it now. :)


Edit: Final polish: 11/12/13 12:45PM. Fixed a lot of small bugs, plus a dull room and some too easy rooms also.
Ugh: One more edit 2:14 PM. Enemies that can't be killed when stopped by a clock leads to ugly bugs. Hopefully worked it out.
Edit: 11/15/13. Minor edit, added some extra message hints and removed a few stray unused warps.

******
In this quest, I tried to recapture the feeling of when first playing Zelda all those years ago. You don't know exactly where stuff is, or how it is supposed to work. It's puzzling, it's difficult, but over time it builds up until you know the rules. I tried to be hard but fair, but that does not mean it is ever obvious. A key word here is 'misdirection.' I did try to pull themes from the previous quests also, to add to the continuity. I think the difficulty is about right, but I'm not the greatest player by any means. I don't make too many rooms that lock you in, or prevent your escape, but I do have long dungeons so you have to be ready for the long fight sometimes. Knowing when to fight and when to run is crucial. Using your items effectively is also rewarded. I may be biased, but for me, it was fun from beginning to end. I hope others find it fun as well.

******

I'd really like to have feedback on the difficulty of the quest. If anyone finds it too easy or too hard, just say so.

justin1
11-22-2013, 02:22 PM
Level 2 is crazy hard! Especially compared to Level 1. I'm just getting murdered and its not fun.

Imzogelmo
11-22-2013, 09:34 PM
Believe it or not, level 2 was originally even harder, but I tuned it down a bit. Is there a certain room or section of the level that is too tough?

justin1
11-25-2013, 06:33 PM
Having trouble going in any direction. The one room with numerous darknuts, a bubble and 3/4 of the screen unwalkable is just mean. There is another screen full of goriyas and darknuts with limited walkability. I've got nowhere in the level and so far died more than I did in nightmare's level 5. I had no deaths on your level 1, so the difficulty just seems way out of character.

Imzogelmo
11-25-2013, 10:05 PM
Thanks for the feedback, justin.

The one with the darknuts in the tight space originally had more darknuts than it does, but it was just too hard. I'm not sure if you have the old version. The latest version has 4 in there.
-=SPOILER=-

The other one, with the goriyas and darknuts, is one you can just continue past if you want. However, you can whittle them down by stunning goriyas with your boomerang, and using the blocks as shilelds as you kill the darknuts, before going back to work with the goriyas. (Note that this has the "ringleader" attribute set on the first enemy (a goriya, as you'd know by the key he carries the first time you're there) so you may very well get out without killing half of them at all). You can also get offset from the goriyas to avoid their boomerangs. Although it's not a necessary room to pass through, it is one that you can use to build up your skills.
-=SPOILER=-
Perhaps I should take away a couple of enemies there.

The gimmick of level 2 is that if it's hard, you're going the wrong way. I could tweak the enemies a bit, perhaps, though. You may need a way to farm hearts through that stretch, as it's deliberately a hard stretch.

CJC
12-12-2013, 04:57 PM
Voting is now open for this quest. Vote for as many categories as you please, but be sure to vote before tax day!

Also, please post in this thread stating which categories you selected and explaining why you picked those categories.

Nightmare
12-25-2013, 04:09 AM
Though Lv. 1:

1. Might be a bit "too" grindy to start. Boomerang, Arrow, Bait, to the tune of about 160 Rupees. This is worse than Chris's quest in beta. You might want to reconsider this.
2. Lose the Darknuts in 1. No real reason for them. Ropes do the job much better, and you won't get raped on NES authenticity.
3. The room with a Bubble, Keese, and Goriya: Bubble is not on the top of the list, making it disappear.
4. Yes, this quest gets personal in the beginning. Hard and brutal.

Got the Candle, now onto OW exploration.

Edit: Found 3 before 2, lawlz.
Edit 2: BUG, 2 screens north and 1 screen west of HC in 1st Quest (bomb hole by the ocean): Reappearing position not set.
Edit 3: lawlz, found Lv. 8. Totally unexpected.

-James

Love For Fire
12-25-2013, 11:19 AM
You found level 3 before 2.. and I never found level 3 lol. 1,2, 4 and I think 8 or 9.

Nightmare
12-25-2013, 03:22 PM
OK, 2 is too hard. I can't seem to get full life anywhere, the "bombchu Dodongos" seem to nail me every time no matter how I move, and the Darknuts in the tight quarters seem to blow me apart. Also, there's way too much exploration with the enemy strength to stay alive.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. This is an enemy editor exercise, right? Take the Darknuts out of 1, if you're bringing them into 2 without the White Sword make a WEAKER version that takes 1-2 hits to kill, and does 1/2 Heart. Staying alive in an exploration dungeon is critical.
2. Watch your enemy counts: Generally the NES limited to 8 enemies, keep that in mind.
3. If there is an item there that leads to the White Sword or if I missed the White Sword (checked the entire OW with bombs and candle), please let me know.
4. You can use enemies as deterrents to make people follow the path if they need to get the item to get the White Sword.

Hope this helps!

-James

Imzogelmo
12-25-2013, 04:22 PM
Love For Fire, I did add a hint for level 3 since you played, so that could help a little bit. Also, you can actually beat 3 before 2 if you want, so don't be afraid to go off-order.
Nightmare You didn't miss it--The item in level 2 (or level 3) is needed to get the White Sword.

I thought I had uploaded a fix to the missing return point at the HC, so I may need to re-upload the quest.

The darknuts in tight quarters are supposed to be the kind of "enemies as deterrents" that you mentioned; i.e., if you are getting slaughtered by Darknuts in a tight room (a nearly impossible situation at that point), then you went the wrong way. Even so, I should probably dial it back a bit.

I appreciate the suggestions on the difficulty and authenticity. I will let you get a bit further and I'll make some changes to address those.

Nightmare
12-25-2013, 04:43 PM
Love For Fire, I did add a hint for level 3 since you played, so that could help a little bit. Also, you can actually beat 3 before 2 if you want, so don't be afraid to go off-order.
Nightmare You didn't miss it--The item in level 2 (or level 3) is needed to get the White Sword.

I thought I had uploaded a fix to the missing return point at the HC, so I may need to re-upload the quest.

The darknuts in tight quarters are supposed to be the kind of "enemies as deterrents" that you mentioned; i.e., if you are getting slaughtered by Darknuts in a tight room (a nearly impossible situation at that point), then you went the wrong way. Even so, I should probably dial it back a bit.

I appreciate the suggestions on the difficulty and authenticity. I will let you get a bit further and I'll make some changes to address those.

Fix 2 and I'll get back on it.

-james

Imzogelmo
12-25-2013, 04:56 PM
OK, will do, but not today. I have to work on Christmas tonight. Ugh!

Tomorrow looks good for it though. :)

EDIT: If the version you have has a password, then it's not the latest version. I took the password off on the current one.

Nightmare
12-25-2013, 07:20 PM
Found the White Sword, but yes, the critical path needs to be definitely changed. Use weaker enemies as lures and stronger enemies as deterrents.

Edit: Screen west of Lv. 3 1st Quest, and 1 screen east and 2 screens south of Lv. 1 1st Quest: Black caves, no stairs.

BTW, also think you should just switch Lv. 3 with Lv. 2 honestly.

Edit 2: THANK YOU for not being a total dickhead with the DRC's.

Edit 3: Just finished 3. MUCH easier than 2, should switch levels definitely.

Edit 4: You got some difficulty going for you in Lv. 4 bub! Ow on the Blue Darknuts without the Blue Ring! Still took you down though, ha! lol

Edit 5: Critical Bug. After I take the Whistle->Stairs early, I get eventually to a room with two blocks. I push the block and nothing appears. If this is the Ladder, I'm fucked.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 01:26 AM
Found the White Sword, but yes, the critical path needs to be definitely changed. Use weaker enemies as lures and stronger enemies as deterrents.

Edit: Screen west of Lv. 3 1st Quest, and 1 screen east and 2 screens south of Lv. 1 1st Quest: Black caves, no stairs.

BTW, also think you should just switch Lv. 3 with Lv. 2 honestly.

Edit 2: THANK YOU for not being a total dickhead with the DRC's.

Edit 3: Just finished 3. MUCH easier than 2, should switch levels definitely.

Edit 4: You got some difficulty going for you in Lv. 4 bub! Ow on the Blue Darknuts without the Blue Ring! Still took you down though, ha! lol

Edit 5: Critical Bug. After I take the Whistle->Stairs early, I get eventually to a room with two blocks. I push the block and nothing appears. If this is the Ladder, I'm fucked.

-James

I actually had strongly considered switching 2 and 3 when making the quest. I'll have to see what ramifications (ie adjustments) that would cause, but since you've said it and I had already considered it, I think that it's probably something I will do. (I had intended level 2 to be a sort of separate-the-men-from-the-boys level, obviously, but perhaps a bit too much too soon).

Also, your edit 5... which level is this in? I don't think you're at the level with the ladder yet... I am extremely mean and tease-y with the levels making you want that particular item, though. :)

Per DRCs, I always hated those, and really, I don't want to punish you for exploring. I can't remember exactly how many, I think maybe 6 or so in the whole quest.

Getting ready to make some adjustments.

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 02:37 AM
Found the White Sword, but yes, the critical path needs to be definitely changed. Use weaker enemies as lures and stronger enemies as deterrents.

Edit: Screen west of Lv. 3 1st Quest, and 1 screen east and 2 screens south of Lv. 1 1st Quest: Black caves, no stairs.

BTW, also think you should just switch Lv. 3 with Lv. 2 honestly.

Edit 2: THANK YOU for not being a total dickhead with the DRC's.

Edit 3: Just finished 3. MUCH easier than 2, should switch levels definitely.

Edit 4: You got some difficulty going for you in Lv. 4 bub! Ow on the Blue Darknuts without the Blue Ring! Still took you down though, ha! lol

Edit 5: Critical Bug. After I take the Whistle->Stairs early, I get eventually to a room with two blocks. I push the block and nothing appears. If this is the Ladder, I'm fucked.

-James

I actually had strongly considered switching 2 and 3 when making the quest. I'll have to see what ramifications (ie adjustments) that would cause, but since you've said it and I had already considered it, I think that it's probably something I will do. (I had intended level 2 to be a sort of separate-the-men-from-the-boys level, obviously, but perhaps a bit too much too soon).

Also, your edit 5... which level is this in? I don't think you're at the level with the ladder yet... I am extremely mean and tease-y with the levels making you want that particular item, though. -=SPOILER=-

Getting ready to make some adjustments.

EDIT (first set of commentary by Nightmare):
-=SPOILER=-

EDIT (second set of commentary by Nightmare):
-=SPOILER=-

Nightmare
12-26-2013, 03:06 AM
Edit 5 was in Level 5.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 04:02 AM
Was that 2-block room immediately above a room with some Armoses arranged in 3 rows?

If so, then push both blocks...

Nightmare
12-26-2013, 04:32 AM
I did, I got no stair.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 04:53 AM
That had to be working, I couldn't have gotten past it otherwise...
I'll upload again in case something is screwy.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBVHN3UnBzVHZzRms/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT: Only recent changes are the fixes to the 2 OW screens missing their stairs.
From some of the comments above, I wonder if you got the pre-watered-down level 2 version, which had some other bugs (including this one, IIRC), so please get this new one (that's not to say there won't be more to do in level 2. I really do appreciate all the criticisms.) I just played level 5 myself, and confirmed it working on this version.

EDIT 2: I should take this opportunity to note that you can always skip a level in my quest except level 6's item must be used in level 7, and 7's in level 8. That's by design, and in some cases may be helpful (but never necessary).

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 05:46 AM
To explain myself on the 'Heart' level; there is a point where you land in a room with 3 paths to choose from (and only one if no boomerang, which is possible). One choice is very bad, and leads you back out the "hard way". One choice is good, although you wouldn't know it except that I don't lock you in the room. The third choice is mediocre. It can get you where you want to go, but most likely it will just dump you back out of the level also. The "good" path is what I should work on, to make it more obvious.

When you near the item, it does get a bit easier. Probably too many Baby Dodongos there; although I did not find them to be too hard once i learned the trick to beating them (let them rush you, but dodge and kill when they reset). Currently they have the Rupees item drop set-- perhaps they should have Life instead?

Nightmare
12-26-2013, 01:21 PM
Time to Dunce Cap you Imzogelmo.

http://youtu.be/IIzNJRYBWKI

This is why we don't test with cheats on.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 01:31 PM
Push the right one, THEN push the left one, and if that doesn't work, you haven't got the recent upgrade.
(it's a tiered secret)

Nightmare
12-26-2013, 02:19 PM
Push the right one, THEN push the left one, and if that doesn't work, you haven't got the recent upgrade.
(it's a tiered secret)

You're DEFINITELY going to want to tip that one off better (unless you want more hate mail and videos. ;-P )! you don't need to put a guy saying it, but maybe two different color blocks to make it more obvious?

Also, bug: Bottom room on right of music note: Blocks are walk-through.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 02:42 PM
You're DEFINITELY going to want to tip that one off better (unless you want more hate mail and videos. ;-P )! you don't need to put a guy saying it, but maybe two different color blocks to make it more obvious?

Also, bug: Bottom room on right of music note: Blocks are walk-through.

-James

This is actually the 2nd usage of such a secret in the quest, so I figured it would be somewhat "expected" at this point. Color-shifting blocks is an idea, though...
It gets a lot more obtuse from here, so I may expect a lot of hate mail..
The walk-thru blocks are fixed pending next update.

Nightmare
12-26-2013, 03:33 PM
6 has a lot of problems, looks like it's untested.

1. Keys are unobtainable for no way to get in rooms.
2. Bocok/Shutters not set in the room left of the Sword Swipe Room, leaving a part of the dungeon inaccessible.

Level needs work.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 04:16 PM
Ugh, you're right, there is one key that is on my notes for that level which somehow is missing from the actual file. I will add that (back) in, and put in a walkthrough for the level.

But the room east of the swipe; it's a one-way exit. If you're trying to go north from there, you can't.

EDIT: Uploaded new version. I have no idea how that key went missing....
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBeWZPZ1hjdHVxWGc/edit?usp=sharing

-=SPOILER=-


And when you get to level 7:
-=SPOILER=-


Level 8 is pretty straightforward. There is one wicked secret, but it only has 2 passages (one which is a massive backwards shortcut). It relies more on hardness of enemies, and features a boss that is really tough, since my bosses generally are not the highpoint of the levels. I strongly urge you to take a red potion into that fight.

Level 9 is hard. Perhaps too hard. I am almost certain I'm going to thin it out a bit.

Nightmare
12-26-2013, 07:32 PM
The Lv. 6 bug is still not fixed. (thanks for unpasswording your quest so I can find bugs a little better, and I can play my own music testing. :) )

Thjere's still no way to access Screen 54 or that sequence.

You need to find a way to make that section accessable.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 08:48 PM
The Lv. 6 bug is still not fixed. (thanks for unpasswording your quest so I can find bugs a little better, and I can play my own music testing. :) )

Thjere's still no way to access Screen 54 or that sequence.

You need to find a way to make that section accessable.

-James

I see how you might say that...
There's a script in screen 42 which removes the obstructing block if/when you get the Triforce. That allows you to exit all the way out of the dungeon, if you so chose. The purpose of the block is so that you can't get the Triforce through the back door without beating the boss... If I could detect the boss having been beaten, that would make a better condition to check for. I'm not quite sure how to check for that, though. I'm open to suggestions of how to achieve that better, as long as you don't say walk-through wall (those only appear in odd-numbered levels).

EDIT: Stupid me. I see how to do it now. It's a quick change, too.

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 09:28 PM
Updated with the quick fix above, as well as some other changes to address difficulty issues:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBNGNmWHFJeGJBcDg/edit?usp=sharing

Changes:
Removed some enemies in Level 2. Made the path to the item easier.
A few overlooked rooms with Bubbles not the first enemy were switched around. I think there are still 2 in the whole game, which were intended.
Removed some enemies from a particularly hard room in level 9.
Changed the script in level 6 to detect the boss being defeated, not the collection of the Triforce.
Wrongfully walk-thru blocks in level 5 made solid.
Made it so 2-block puzzle in level 5 is a little more obvious. The same kind of puzzle later in the game will not be flagged as such.

Nightmare: I think you originally had an older version of the quest, as several of the early bugs you found were some that I found in my playthrough (missing return point, murder in level 2, bubbles out of order in level 1). So, there were a couple of other OW secrets that had been added to the 11/16 version, which may be important.

I forgot to remove Darknuts from level 1. D'oh!

Nightmare
12-26-2013, 11:26 PM
I'll go playing around in 1 and 2 in a bit, 5 is much better, but 6 is still screwy. There's still no way to access Screen 54, period.

Please make the door west of the swipe open. It's the most logical solution to fix it, and makes the most sense quest-wise.

Edit: Remove the Blue Goriyas and some of the Mini-Dodongos on the way to the Raft. Everything else in 2 looks OK. The stronger enemies should discourage people from taking the wrong path.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-26-2013, 11:52 PM
110

You can get to screen 54 from here. Note that in the old version, the block disappeared only if you took the Triforce. It now is tied to defeating the boss. (In my tests, I found that a save file from before the script change won't work even with the new file, but if you collect the Triforce in the old version, you will see the block disappear, as it does now with the defeat of the boss).

Map of the level, perhaps it can help:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBYnJ2aE5ZMjdvZEE/edit

EDIT 2: I could open up the one-way on screen 74 without harming the flow, but my fear is that it would be too confusing when seeing the block that can move but nothing opening. Once on screen 64, there should be no way to go up or right, as that could lead to sequence breaks.

EDIT 3: I've removed the Darknuts in level 1, replacing with Ropes and Stalfoses. I also have removed the Blue Goriyas in level 2 along the path to the raft, except the solo one guarding the raft itself. I took the Dodongo Babies from 7 down to 3 in the room just prior to it. I cut a couple of Darknuts from level 6's treasure room also.

Nightmare
12-27-2013, 01:58 AM
Completed 6 and 7.

1. Did not need to remove the Darknuts from that room in 6.

2. Green Gibdos don't animate properly.

Onto 7!

Edit: 7 beat. Some of the secrets were obscure, but generally, easy level. Moving on!

Edit 2: Level 8:

1. Damn, business picked up!
2. Different color for Fire Gleeok please. No excuse for that one.
3. Fire Gleeok's fire glitchy.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-27-2013, 03:22 AM
Accidentally double posted-- nothing to see here--

Imzogelmo
12-27-2013, 03:35 AM
I told you level 8 was hard. XD

The boss of level 8 killed me a lot of times. Seriously-- BRING YOUR POTION. I toned it down ever so slightly, so it's not quite as bad as when I ran through it (I can elaborate more if needed), but it's still quite tough.

EDIT: Changes in pending update:
Level 1 - Darknuts gone, replaced with Stalfoses and Ropes.
Level 2 - Blue Goriyas replaced with Red in path to the raft, except the solo guy in the actual treasure room. Went from 7 to 3 Baby Dodongos in previous to treasure room.
Level 6 - Ladder room bumped up to 9 Darknuts.
Level 7 - whistle->secret room altered cosmetically, to make it more in line with similar secrets.
L2 Gibdo's animation fixed. Whoops!


Nightmare: I'm not sure what you mean about the color and fire of the Fire Gleeok. Perhaps I have an offset wrong?

Nightmare
12-27-2013, 03:48 AM
Use a different boss palette, make it red or something.

BTW, "oh shit" moment when I saw your 150 Rupee Leave Your Life or Money Room, lol, and I had 0. Save/Quit.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-27-2013, 03:52 AM
Yeah, sorry about that money or life bit. I completely forgot about that... should've warned you. It's especially mean on a level where you use the arrows so much-- but it's level 8 of the 5th quest, right? :P
The wand counts as a "Ranged weapon" though, so it helps a bit.

I know you hate a certain item, and hopefully you can find it in your heart to forgive its inclusion here. Given the difficulty of this and the last level, it may be warranted.

Nightmare
12-27-2013, 03:57 AM
Actually spent it on the bomb upgrade, that's how I ran out of money, lol.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-27-2013, 04:07 AM
Yeah, I came >this< close to putting a wallet upgrade in this quest. Went for a few generous Moblins instead.


EDIT: Changes in pending update:
Level 1 - Darknuts gone, replaced with Stalfoses and Ropes.
Level 2 - Blue Goriyas replaced with Red in path to the raft, except the solo guy in the actual treasure room. Went from 7 to 3 Baby Dodongos in previous to treasure room.
Level 6 - Ladder room bumped up to 9 Darknuts.
Level 7 - whistle->secret room altered cosmetically, to make it more in line with similar secrets.
L2 Gibdo's animation fixed. Whoops!
Level 8 - Fire Gleeok has a much more menacing deep red color now. Fire still looks off somehow, but I'm not quite sure what to do about it.

EDIT 2:
Link for update with above:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBN2FzeWk3UXlhUjA/edit?usp=sharing

Nightmare
12-27-2013, 04:25 AM
Beat 8. That boss battle wasn't horrible.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-27-2013, 04:30 AM
Oh, there's another Money or Life in level 9, so take some rupees with you. Also, it's got influence from Zelda II's Great Palace: Translation, long, complex, with dead ends and hard fights. What did you expect from me at this point?


Hope you're enjoying the quest despite the, ahem, hiccups.

Nightmare
12-27-2013, 05:07 AM
I'm too tired for Lv. 9 tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

It's now a ROMhack. lol. (stupid Pols Voice)

Edit: I don't know where the bug is, been checking your file, but basically, your 9 is impassable puzzle-wise. I think it's where you intended to nail the Fire Gibdos with some other enemies with two statues on the bottom, but I'm not sure. But either way, it's not completable. You're going to have to re-think your puzzle and fix it. I think you outdid yourself.

BTW, just so you know, my music list for testing:

1. Frog's Theme, Chrono Trigger
2. TMNT Stage 5 Arcade
3. Final Fantasy Legend 2 - Aspiration
4. Blaster Master - Stage 7
5. Dance Dance Revolution - Butterfly
6. Dragon Warrior - Alefgard's Theme
7. Castlevania - Vampire Killer
8. Mega Man Battle Network 3 - Copyman
9. Battletoads and Double Dragon - Level 5 (really appropriate, since the level is Battletoads and Link: The Ultimate Disaster. ;-) )

Edit: More bugs:
1. Lanmolas shouldn't drop anything except when totally dead. NES quest.
2. Moas don't animate properly

I think I'll grade you at this point. It won't change much.

Difficulty: 98/100
Very balanced. Lv. 9's a bitch, but who cares at that point, the player has to earn it.

NES authenticity: 10/100
Where can I start? Mirror Shield? Conveyor Belts? Sword Swipe, double secrets (which I think are clearly against the rules, but we're not DQ'ing for it), among other things. I'm giving you 10 points for generally your class in handling these things, ESPECIALLY the Z2 message for the Sword Swipe, but mostly, terribly inaccurate. But I think you knew that.

Fun Factor: 95/100
Very creative, and except for the early Lv. 2, enjoyable.
Mini-Dodongo candidate for Best Normal Enemy

Overall: 67.6/100 Another "fun but not going to win" quest. Mostly fails for authenticity, but basically falls in line with LFF's, Shoelace's, and others: Good experience, but people just stayed truer to the NES and this will eliminate this eventually. Start working on the story and an alternate tileset and this will probably make a great custom quest.

-James

Imzogelmo
12-27-2013, 11:55 AM
Spoilers:
-=SPOILER=-

Nightmare
12-27-2013, 12:06 PM
Imzogelmo: Download OBS. That takes videos of quests. That's what I use for the most part.

FRAPS don't work too well on ZC.

Now if I could only fix the sound card and not have to use the mic to record.

-James

Nightmare
12-27-2013, 02:23 PM
Completed, except for the maze path at the end (which I HATED), it was not the hardest dungeon I've played, some of them in James Quest and 2 are nastier.

Few suggestions:

1. Slightly slow down the ROMhack Pols Voice. They're ridiculous in speed and un-Zelda like.
2. Switch the Red Ring and Silver Arrow. Most players will not survive that long.
3. You've got to color mark multiple secrets. I can't tell you how many times I took wrong passageways or reset in frustration because I didn't know. Mark them, ALL of them. Every level they're around.
4. Put a "Super Patra" (like a Red Patra) into the maze room. Whatever pattern you want, have the center shoot fireballs. (not a Patra 2). Be good for tradition.

Grade: Nothing changed. Enjoy!

-James

Imzogelmo
12-27-2013, 11:04 PM
To have stumped you in the few places where I did makes me glad. I made a quest that I felt would surprise new and experienced players alike, which I hope adds to the fun factor.

I poured my heart and soul (and body and mind... seriously, I OD'd on caffeine working on this thing) into it. I focused so much, some of the ideas came to me in my dreams. I wanted to include conveyor belts all along (and it had nothing to do with Gleeok's "Conveyors may be OK" comment, but that was reassuring). Of course the maze paths were something I was thinking of from the beginning too, since I even asked about it in the discussion thread. Beyond that, the ideas stemmed from asking myself "how can I do something unexpected within the rules?" I believe I kept within the rules very closely, maybe not the spirit of them, but the letter of them anyway. If it wasn't against the rules, I kept my mouth shut so I could use it. :)

-=SPOILER=-

My baby Dodongos were my first real attempt at original sprites, so I'm surprised you didn't trash them, lol. I actually made the concept of them before I went about setting their traits in the enemy editor, so that is probably why it feels more authentic than some other enemy editor creations. Even so, I still like the way the Moas turned out more. If I were doing an unrestricted quest, i'd probably make more Moas, in 3 or 4 flavors.

Thanks for playing, and I'm glad you had a fun time. I'm surprised you enjoyed it that much, all things considered. :)

Coyotek4
01-26-2014, 03:12 PM
I think I'm late to the party for this one.

Finished first two levels. Level 2 did kill me once, but it wasn't the hack-fest I read about. Didn't see anything about ...
-=SPOILER=-

Found Level 4 easily enough; not sure if I need to buy a key before entering, or whether I should have an extra key from Level 3.

Currently stuck looking for Level 3 (as well as 5,6,7,8 ... 9 was easy to find), as well as the blue ring and power bracelet.

Imzogelmo
01-26-2014, 05:27 PM
Coyote, you seem to be right on track as far as the items go. Level 2 has been toned down a bit from what it originally was. You'll probably find level 3 to be a bit easier than 2.

As for having to press 2 blocks, there is one very cryptic clue about it, but just know that if you hear the secret sound, it's not a mistake--something has changed so keep looking.

Hint: To access level X, you'll need an item from level X-2 (with 2 exceptions which you'll probably figure out later). Pay-for-info ladies are very useful in this quest, so I threw 4 of them in there. I think each one has 2 useful clues. If I get too many complaints about enigmatic features, I'm open to adding another clue in there.

Coyotek4
01-26-2014, 08:59 PM
Funny thing: the first thing I tried upon continuing, I found Level 3!

Now I know everything relevant about the OVW except for (a) one HC, and (b) the location of one level.

Will do more tomorrow.

Coyotek4
01-29-2014, 11:53 PM
I think I found a 'stuck' error: in Level 5, the 'Leever Room' doesn't have a staircase back, and I got stuck. Had to quit/save and come back.

Imzogelmo
01-30-2014, 02:51 AM
If all else fails, use the whistle.

Coyotek4
01-30-2014, 06:38 AM
If all else fails, use the whistle.
I did ... and a blank tile appeared.

Imzogelmo
01-30-2014, 10:49 PM
Yeah, I should have made that gimmick a bit more obvious... (go stand on that blank tile, and use the whistle again).

Coyotek4
01-30-2014, 11:26 PM
Yeah, I should have made that gimmick a bit more obvious... (go stand on that blank tile, and use the whistle again).
Wow ... would NOT have thought of doing that.

There's a lot going on with secrets, especially with Levels 6 and 7. (Haven't started 8; can only wonder at this point.) Might be a bit too obscure in some places.

Nightmare
01-30-2014, 11:54 PM
Wow ... would NOT have thought of doing that.

There's a lot going on with secrets, especially with Levels 6 and 7. (Haven't started 8; can only wonder at this point.) Might be a bit too obscure in some places.

Double blocks should be made that way too. (grrrrrrrr)

-James

Imzogelmo
01-31-2014, 12:06 AM
I do have a hint in there somewhere, which basically says if a room has tiles and sand, the whistle is the key.

(I'm not a fan of visual cues for secrets, that takes all the fun out of it IMO. The Secret Chime is all the hint you really need.)

Coyotek4
01-31-2014, 08:47 PM
OK, I give up on this one: there's a room (off the map) in Level 8 that I can't get to. Don't know if I need what's in there, but I'm gonna start Level 9 without it.

Imzogelmo
01-31-2014, 08:52 PM
A room off the map? I don't recall any non-map rooms in level 8. I'll have to look into that.

justin1
02-05-2014, 08:57 PM
couple of overword bugs.

- top right screen of graveyard, grave pushes and becomes another tile.
- one screen up from 2nd quest lvl7, there is a gamble room, exiting puts you in the middle of the trees.

edit:

another one
- ow, 2nd screen from the right in the top row, blow whistle, a blank tile shows up, link walks down like cave walk down.


your redo of lvl2 is a lot better. i still died a handful of times (no deaths in lvl1 or lvl3), so its the hardest that i've tried so far. i HATE HATE HATE the mini dodongos, it seems like their hitbox is really big for hurting link but really small for sword damage. all my deaths in that level were due to those little bastards. never found the compass in lvl2.

Imzogelmo
02-06-2014, 02:12 AM
Thanks for the bug reports, justin. Uploading a fix for these.

I'm surprised to hear about the baby dodongos being so tough. I really never died from them except one time when I was almost dead anyway... :(

New version:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBdnI0TnRRTWR4NEk/edit?usp=sharing

justin1
02-06-2014, 12:48 PM
lvl4 - the room right of the "link" room has a tile error in the bottom wall

edit: also in lvl4, it might just be me, but it looks like in the maze room there is a wall tile in the wrong cset to the right of the bottom door.

the grave repair charge was a mean trick, i was all excited to finally push that grave now that i had the bracelet. thought that might be the blue ring... still no blue ring...

Imzogelmo
02-07-2014, 11:53 AM
Updated once more to correct the 2 errors pointed out by justin1 as well as floor tile issue in a room near the end of the level.
Sorry about the grave repair. I had so few door repair charges, I felt like violating a grave would be even worse than a door.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ix4ektZqlBdWoxQ2FjNXNTMUk/edit?usp=sharing

Coyotek4
02-08-2014, 11:26 AM
OK, I'm about ready to quit on Level 9. I'm stuck on how to continue.

Here's what I know:

-=SPOILER=-

Imzogelmo
02-09-2014, 04:15 AM
Coyote, I'll give you a hint, and I'll make a map at some point because I see this being a frequent question. The hint is: most of the passages are one-way. Sometimes there will be a passage that you'd think would lead back to where you came from, when in fact it's a chain of one ways. Also, every trick that I used in previous levels gets reused, so look for that.

-=SPOILER=-

Coyotek4
02-09-2014, 11:46 AM
I'm well aware of the 'one-way' passages; it's not the first quest that uses it.

Basically: from the Level entrance, I take one staircase, then go back in and pop out elsewhere, and I'm stuck at the 'elsewhere' section. In particular:

-=SPOILER=-

Imzogelmo
02-10-2014, 02:15 AM
As crazy as this will sound, if you're entering that room from the south, you can't go anywhere--it'll be a dead end. And if you entered from another direction (and you got the clue about this type of room), then you'll know which item to use for advancement. However, that's later in the dungeon, and optional. Go one room south of that, and explore it very carefully.

Coyotek4
02-10-2014, 06:54 PM
Go one room south of that, and explore it very carefully.

One room south has a bunch of floating eyes (easy to kill) and a lot of red water. I can't get to the right side or the bottom.

There was a room in Level 8 that had a door I couldn't get to, either. Are they related? Is there another item I need, that I never found?

Imzogelmo
02-10-2014, 08:47 PM
I believe that you missed an item. If you go to the place where level 7 was in the first quest, it has a hint.

Coyotek4
02-10-2014, 09:48 PM
Yeah, I got what I needed. Still going through Level 9.

justin1
02-11-2014, 06:45 PM
lvl5 - seems possible to get trapped in the level by the red bubble right of the "use the whistle" guy. the only blue bubble i know about is 2 rooms above, but i can't get back there because i can't kill the vires to open the bridge, and i can't backtrack to entrance because of the pushblock guarded by wizzrobes.

edit: nevermind, found a bomb wall and a blue bubble. didn't have any bombs the first time around though.

also seems weird that you colour coded the double push blocks in this level but not in the previous one.


edit2:
lvl8 - two places to possibly get stuck.
if you get hit by red bubble before or after getting mirror shield, you can get stuck fighting the wizzrobes inside that brick enclosure when you leave the item room. i was ok since i had some bombs, but maybe put the return square outside the enclosure.
i was still jinxed and i tried to get back up to item or life room (not sure where the next blue bubble is), i ran out of rupees in the conveyor/target room and while i'm not stuck, its a huge pain in the ass. the $$ for the money or life room seems a bit steep (especially with the 250 bomb upgrade earlier in the dungeon, and rocking the arrows early in the dungeon before getting wand).
i've been in and out of this dungeon 4 times now, 1st - didn't have enough money, 2nd - hit by likelike in map room (stupid conveyors), 3rd - hit by likelike in mirrorshield room (stupid conveyors) and subsequently killed by wizzrobe. i was super psyched to grab the mirrorshield so i wouldn't have to worry about likelikes again (i was hit by another likelike in the mirrorshield room but had enough life to survive the wizzrobes on my 4th attempt). going back out in search of rupees and blue bubble...

edit3:
next run in, take passageway that brings me back to start. uggh.
next, killed by patra2
next, i kill patra2 - what?!?! it wasn't guarding anything. uggh. used my potion. no boss key. go out to get another potion.
next, looking for boss key. looking for boss key... sick of this, look in questfile for boss key. YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!
next, die at boss. i'm done for now. i hate this dungeon - tedious to the extreme.

Imzogelmo
02-12-2014, 01:09 AM
I was originally going to put a wallet upgrade in the quest, so that the rupee demand wouldn't be so bad, but I decided against it (plenty of extra stuff already). The thinking is that most folks would skip the bomb upgrade until some later time when they just have it at max anyway (you're not likely to need that many bombs). With that in mind, I sprinkled in some 10-rupee prizes in there so you should have enough for the needed arrows. Then, the money-or-life room.. I was just being mean there.

The mirror shield room is one that I died a lot of times on myself, so I know how hard it is. I actually turned the difficulty down on it a lot. It originally had like 4 blue wizzrobes. I don't think you can get stuck there, though. You shouldn't be able to get inside the enclosure if there are any enemies (aside from the red bubble). If that hits you (which is really unlucky as I placed the water there for you to use the ladder on and "hide"), then you can leave to the east and go up, up, left, and down to the blue bubble and then down again to try again. If you're out of rupees, then you can leave the dungeon. If you're out of bombs, you're still not stuck, but it does give you less leeway. If you're out of both, I believe the wand is all you need to totally escape the dungeon (and there is always the shortcut near the end of the level). The enclosure's wall being removed is supposed to be permanent after you trigger it the first time though, so the fact you got into the stairs should mean that you're able to leave the room.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something?

justin1
02-12-2014, 11:11 AM
when is anyone going to come back for the bomb upgrade? its already level8. i'm thinking i need more bombs for this level (since it is so early in) or for lvl9. by this point in the quest, the player has already uncovered every or nearly every overworld secret - so there isn't piles of money laying around to pick up. its all grinding. i'm just doing laps of the graveyard.

i killed all the enemies, got the mirror shield. when i came back out i was inside the enclosure with the red bubble, it hit me, two teleporting wizzrobes had also respawned, and i was forced to fight them to reopen the enclosure to leave - without bombs i wouldn't have been able to do so. you must have a splitting enemy in the room that is causing the enemies to respawn. easy solution would be to put the return square outside the enclosure, and/or get rid of splitting enemy. OR get rid of the red bubble.

also, how would anyone be able to use the ladder on the water to avoid the red bubble when the water is inside the enclosure? sure you could use it after coming back out, but the red bubble spawned right in front of me.

edit: ya, you have two splitting vires in that room.

edit2: beat lvl8 on my first try today. onto lvl9 with trepidation...

justin1
02-12-2014, 09:10 PM
appears that i'm stuck in lvl9. in room with brick wall at bottom with target below it, mirrorrobes and polsvoice and red bubbles. i picked up a clock. can't kill mirrorrobes now, and no way out of room.


also, this quest is giving me an eternal hatred for the glitchy 4-way ladder. been stuck and had to quit too many times.


edit: done. thoughts later.

Coyotek4
02-13-2014, 09:50 PM
PHEW!

OK, I finally completed this quest.

Certainly, from beginning to end, the most puzzle-filled quest I've played. I can't help but think you overdid some aspects.

Like the dungeons. Some of your new creatures are plain nasty. The new Wizzrobes, in particular, are tough.

A couple sections are, simply, no fun. The one room with the blue Darknuts and blue Bubbles, you can't reach most of the creatures without the beam, forcing you to either (a) use up a potion, or (b) leave and come back over and over, taking out the single Darknut each time and hoping a heart comes out, repeating until you're full on hearts.

Your new ladder is a bit buggy. On one occasion, I got stuck and had to quit. (Someone else used the same item, but opted simply for a darker brown. That one was more solid.

Died a lot going through that last level. The new sword technique made killing Ganon easier, despite needing 16 hits. (Darknuts are harder, at least the way I usually kill them.)

Heckuvan effort. Became too frustrating at times; I think some of the really obscure clues could use a bit more 'scaffolding'. Not my favorite quest, but a solid one nonetheless.

Imzogelmo
02-14-2014, 02:13 AM
It seems that my global script isn't quite working. It is intended to prevent clock drops in certain rooms (namely, ones where you are locked in and all enemies are not accessible when they are stopped).

I appreciate the honest feedback, and if it could be made better without serious nerfing, i'm open to it. I really wanted to capture the feeling of not-knowing-quite-how-stuff-works that you feel when first playing a game, while still staying true to existing Zelda themes in most ways.

In particular, regarding the ladder getting you stuck-- is there a certain room or pattern of tiles that is causing you to get stuck? If it is as simple as a redesign on some rooms, then that may be the way to go to make the quest all it can be.

Coyotek4
02-14-2014, 06:38 AM
In particular, regarding the ladder getting you stuck-- is there a certain room or pattern of tiles that is causing you to get stuck? If it is as simple as a redesign on some rooms, then that may be the way to go to make the quest all it can be.

It was the same room mentioned earlier, where I was stuck. A bunch of Mos in there.

justin1
02-14-2014, 09:41 AM
In particular, regarding the ladder getting you stuck-- is there a certain room or pattern of tiles that is causing you to get stuck? If it is as simple as a redesign on some rooms, then that may be the way to go to make the quest all it can be.


it happened to me in multiple rooms. a couple of times i was able to get free by taking damage from enemies. the rest, i just had to exit. the really complex 4-way rooms with push blocks and fake-water seemed to be the worst (the one in lvl9 with the moas as an example). the black goriya room in lvl9 was another time, at least that one the goriyas hit me free. early in lvl9 the pols voice room happened once. and it happened in lvl7 (once in the n-s/e-w bats room) and lvl8 a couple of times (forget the rooms). i think the 4-way ladder is just really buggy in general, so even if you reduced the complexity of the rooms that require its use you'll still have situations where it happens just because.

Zweldron
05-11-2014, 04:41 PM
After an exhausting time with level 9, I finally finished this one. For the most part I enjoyed this one. The levels were nicely designed (except for my comments below on 9), and I always had a way to go. The clues scattered about in both the overworld and in dungeons gave just enough cluing to be useful without giving too much away. I did run into a few glitches, however.

First, I will say that I got hit by the "stuck on the 4-way ladder" bug twice- both times in different rooms of dungeon 9 with moas- once in the room with two push blocks just before the 6-headed gleeok, and once in the room before the room with lots of right-to-left conveyors, 3 bubbles and a bunch of blue darknuts. Both times this happened after I had killed everything, so I couldn't get hit by something. The fact that the second time happened on the very next try after I reset from the first time made me quit for the night, as this compounded with my general criticism for level 9.
Second, when exiting the gambling cave 1 screen N of where level 7 was in quest 2, it placed me in the middle of the wooded area. Fortunately I could whistle-warp out, but that is another minor glitch.

Now for the non-bug critique:
The magic lanmolas were interesting, but since they were always the same color as the conveyors, they became very hard to see- particularly when down to 1 segment left. Was this intentional? I felt it made them very annoying, as their immunities and the terrain of battle already made them hard to fight.

Level 9 got very tedious. Almost every path (other than the one to Ganon) effectively leads you back to the beginning- and, of course, two of those paths MUST be followed, even if you already have the dungeon mapped out, as one leads to the boss key, and the other to the silver arrows (and if you want the map or the red ring, well...). Fighting the grey wizrobes over and over again was not enjoyable- particularly in rooms with many other creatures. Their incredible damage level didn't help that either.

On the plus side, Having multiple secrets (sometimes sequenced) in one room, as well as having rooms with multiple (different) staircases was a novel thing (if other contest maps do this, I haven't played them yet), and I can see a few ways this can be developed further.

As a general comment, I think that the "tail of the chicken" clue should probably have been placed in a room in dungeon 7, 8, or 9, as you don't need the item before 9, and can't even attempt to get it before 6. I had gotten that clue very early on, and completely forgot about it, since the ladder was so far later on in the game. Only the fact that I take thorough notes allowed me to realize the problem with getting various items (I was already partway through level 9 before I got it, and the items from earlier dungeons that require it.

Overall, I think that the quest was very good, but the design of level 9 was more frustrating than difficult (the bug hitting me in there didn't help much either!) Still, it does rank as one of the better quests, IMO, and earns a solid 3.86 / 5 from me.

Imzogelmo
05-19-2014, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the in-depth treatment. I appreciate it and find it to be quite fair. I hope it was mostly enjoyable, and level 9's insanity was a deliberate throwback to the NES days, so I half-expected to take a ding there.