Brave New World

[SUCCESSOR]

The most popular idea in our poll.i went ahead and posted 5th first because I have no idea how to begin to say what should be allowed/disallowed for this.

Basically the idea is to create an overworld with new graphics that will be used as a base for future quest contest a la 3rd, 4th, and fifth but more liberal and more focused on modern ZC quest style.

Obviously it can't just be, "do whatever and we'll pick the best." That would end up a mess. Like i said in the other topic I think it should be very open with distinct areas. Something easy to work with.

All you people who voted for this its time to chime in because this is going to take more work to plan than 5th Quest.

[CJC]

Before we start actually building a quest, we need to decide on the graphics. Personally, I think we should build a new graphics set based off the Gameboy Set. Since the Pure Tileset and its descendant Dance of Radiance set are based on the SNES appearance, and since Minish Cap is too difficult to handle, the use of a Gameboy style set will give the game a fresh and unique look while remaining easy to use. Also, since many of the gameboy tiles use a limited number of colors, it is a smaller leap from 'classic' than a completely unique tileset would be.

Newfirst sort of did this ages ago (like, before I joined in 2002), but I think we need to do a little spritework to make it compatible with newer tools and the more fluid layout of ZC 2.5.




As for the quest itself, are we limiting ourselves to a single overworld? Or perhaps we could hold a contest and the four best overworlds would get sewn together (Leaving overworld 1 to the south? You'll end up in the north of overworld 3).


But it's the middle of the night, and probably not the best time for me to be coming up with ideas. I have been known to make incredibly bad suggestions when deprived of REM sleep.

[Binx]

Ugh, the gameboy graphics never appealed to me, and with EZGBZ out, they're getting way overused. That being said, it probably WOULD be the logical starting point, considering it's pretty straightforward, and a lot easier to use than Pure or DoR. That being said, I still have a soft spot for the Dance of Remembrance set (it's just so pretty), and it's used badly a LOT (especially the mountains), so maybe it would be nice to have a quest that is designed around that, so people can get a good example.

Or here's a random thought. Use ALL the tilesets! And Link travels around to different overworlds in different tilesets gathering items. Just kidding, there's not enough palettes in the game to pull that off.

[CJC]

Well we DO have a collection of talented spriters on this board, so if you like we could collaborate and build a new tileset from scratch (graphics and all). I would insist on something cel-shade-esque, though, to save on colors and ensure the widest range of compatibility between different art styles. Classic+, essentially.



Had a different idea about the overworlds, though. What about SEVEN overworlds? Okay, don't shoot me down yet, here me out.

We hold seven contests, one for each overworld. The first six overworlds are to be built using a specific theme from the produced tileset (which is of course step one in this process), and would only consist of HALF the space of a regular overworld map.

First Overworld: Forest

Second Overworld: Mountain

Third Overworld: Arctic

Fourth Overworld: Swamp

Fifth Overworld: Desert

Sixth Overworld: Nocturnal/Deep Forest

Finally, the last contest held would be for the 'center' overworld, which connects the other six.

Seventh Overworld: Ruins


Each overworld must abide by the following:
It must fit the theme of the contest in question It must have EXACTLY two Heart Containers worth of pieces hidden across the map It must have at least ten apparent entrances (structures, caves, etc). The contents of these entrances will be determined with a later contest. Tool obstacles, like a hammer peg, must be located in places where a quest maker may easily remove them. That is, you cannot build layered or multi-combo structures to block paths.

Of course, all of this is moot before we settle on a graphic style. To do list goes like this:
Pick a Tileset Host Contests for overworld/overworlds Host Contests for dungeons Host Contests for overworld interiors (based on tools found in dungeons)

[Binx]

I like the idea for the overworld contests. Actually, I've even had a couple ideas for various areas.

[mrz84]

Multiple Overworlds sounds like an interesting idea. I'd love to get on that contest. Already getting some ideas, depending on the tileset used.

[SUCCESSOR]

*shoots CJC

This is exactly the overambitious ideas that leave us with cancelled projects. That would be 3 full maps and something like 2 years worth of contests before we ever get an overworld. This idea may be better for a community quest (scaled down) or maybe later additions.

I think it would be better to stick with a one map one contest limit.

Speaking of graphics, I think it would be best to use a versatile tileset and EZGBZ isn't. Speaking as someone who has used it it can feel very limiting if you aren't specifically going for a pure GB style quest. I think tilesets that mix SNES, GB and others would be best. I have limited experience with tilesets. I have only used EZGBZ, Pure, and BS and I think BS feels almost as ancient as classic.

[CJC]

-=SPOILER=-

EDIT: Ninja'd! ...Okay, I suppose it doesn't HAVE to be as complex as all that, maybe this could be reserved for some other project after these bundle quests are released.

[CJC]

Okay, the first thing we need to do before anything else is decide on what kind of graphics we want this project to use. We can't build a quest without a unified combo setup, so let's have an informal poll:

What tileset do you think should be used for Brave New World?

1.) A gameboy derivative like the Comprehensive GameBoy Tileset or Newfirst

2.) A SNES derivative like Pure or Dance of Radiance

3.) A Classic derivative like Demo

4.) A mashup set utilizing tiles from options 1 to 3

5.) An AGN from-scratch original tileset


I vote 5, because honestly I think a community tileset would really help draw activity here, like it did when the Pure set was being constructed at PureZC.

[crazyal02]

What tileset do you think should be used for Brave New World?

1.) A gameboy derivative like the Comprehensive GameBoy Tileset or Newfirst

2.) A SNES derivative like Pure or Dance of Radiance

3.) A Classic derivative like Demo

4.) A mashup set utilizing tiles from options 1 to 3

5.) An AGN from-scratch original tileset

5 seems like a good idea to me as well.

[Phazite]

Option 5 would do well if there were enough artists around to contribute. If we're talking about completely new graphics, I can't see that happening. If we're talking about compiling a tileset from existing graphics plus new ones, that's more likely but still seems very ambitious. However it would be awesome to see a new tileset be completed.

I myself am most comfortable using Pure first, GameBoy second. I feel like they're a little more difficult to use, but with them there is more variety to work with than in classic derivatives or something like BS or NewFirst.

[MasterSwordUltima]

I had absolutely no idea that the Pure tileset was from PureZC...like, literally never crossed my mind.

[Phazite]

I had absolutely no idea that the Pure tileset was from PureZC...like, literally never crossed my mind.

Wow, me neither! I can't believe I never thought about that!

[CJC]

I was thinking about this and the tileset's defining characteristic will need to be the ease of using mountains. When I was working on my entry to the 5th contest, I began to understand just how flexible a set of classic mountains could be with only six combos. I think whichever set we choose needs that same flexibility to keep overworld screen fabrication swift and functional.

[CJC]

It's been a while, so I thought I'd revive this discussion again.

As I think about it more and more, Classic derivatives are the fastest to use for screen construction because of their limited (or nonexistent) layering requirements and their fluidity. DragonDePlatino's Koten set has been getting a lot of buzz lately, has anybody built screens with that one?

[DragonDePlatino]

It's been a while, so I thought I'd revive this discussion again.

As I think about it more and more, Classic derivatives are the fastest to use for screen construction because of their limited (or nonexistent) layering requirements and their fluidity. DragonDePlatino's Koten set has been getting a lot of buzz lately, has anybody built screens with that one?

Ohhh...I know a couple of chaps over on PureZC that have been using the tileset! Mainly Benji and Demonlink.
(http://www.purezc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=49614&page=358) Really fantastic stuff over there! I love how even though Koten has the same number of tiles as Classic, it's still encouraging people to make more dynamic screens. :)

If you guys end up using this for anything, drop me a line and I'll make any tweaks you'd like...

[SUCCESSOR]

Does it really have to be one tileset? I know that was an original parameter but seeing how long this has been inactive it my be a necessary drop. It might be better to simply limit it to any non classic tileset that is complete* and publicly available. Or make a list of acceptable tilesets.

*Complete for ZC 2.5

[CJC]

Come to think of it, whomsoever wins the first part of the contest (Overworld layout) will be handing over a file which will be supplied to all entrants for the second half of the contest (Dungeons), so I guess as long as the set can handle everything ZC 2.5 can throw it'll be fine.

So I guess all that leaves is discussing the rules of the contest's two parts. I'll get the ball rolling:

Part 1
1.) No more than 3 Overworld maps (not counting layer maps): Secret placement is going to be a little more obvious than in the Classic game, given the more flexible graphic options, but we don't want the player to become exhausted exploring overworld screens. Towns, Forests, Mountains, Swamps, you should be able to squeeze more than enough of this into three maps. Any submission with more than three overworld maps will be disqualified.

Part 2
1.) No more than 4 Dungeon maps (not counting layer maps): The emphasis of this contest is the brave new world. Dungeons should be concentrated awesome, not sprawls. Again, we do not wish to exhaust the players with long treks. Interiors are part of this limit, as they are part of the dungeon half of the contest!


With crazy layering that's 49 Maps! These are extremes, though, hopefully players will tailor their dungeons to fit together nicely on the fewest maps possible, like the original did.
It might also be a good idea to limit layering to help control file size.

[SUCCESSOR]

Come to think of it, whomsoever wins the first part of the contest (Overworld layout) will be handing over a file which will be supplied to all entrants for the second half of the contest (Dungeons), so I guess as long as the set can handle everything ZC 2.5 can throw it'll be fine.

Exactly which is why the tilesets should be approved. Anyone who wants to take place in the next phases of this shouldn't be forced to deal with an incomplete, unorganized, or otherwise not-very-usable tileset.


Part 1
1.) No more than 3 Overworld maps (not counting layer maps): Secret placement is going to be a little more obvious than in the Classic game, given the more flexible graphic options, but we don't want the player to become exhausted exploring overworld screens. Towns, Forests, Mountains, Swamps, you should be able to squeeze more than enough of this into three maps. Any submission with more than three overworld maps will be disqualified.

3 seems a bit excessive to me. I would rather see 1 very well designed map than 3 unrefined ones. I personally feel one map with allowances of using a second as necessary. To keep this from getting out of hand and people from over extending themselves. layers should be limited in number and how they are executed. Like using auto layers on subsequent maps.


Part 2
1.) No more than 4 Dungeon maps (not counting layer maps): The emphasis of this contest is the brave new world. Dungeons should be concentrated awesome, not sprawls. Again, we do not wish to exhaust the players with long treks. Interiors are part of this limit, as they are part of the dungeon half of the contest!


Should we be getting into part 2 of this? Who knows when it could happen.

[CJC]

Exactly which is why the tilesets should be approved. Anyone who wants to take place in the next phases of this shouldn't be forced to deal with an incomplete, unorganized, or otherwise not-very-usable tileset.

3 seems a bit excessive to me. I would rather see 1 very well designed map than 3 unrefined ones. I personally feel one map with allowances of using a second as necessary. To keep this from getting out of hand and people from over extending themselves. layers should be limited in number and how they are executed. Like using auto layers on subsequent maps.



Should we be getting into part 2 of this? Who knows when it could happen.

I was actually thinking auto-layering should be required, just to keep the maps tidy. My big concern is that such eats up a lot of quest space (though I suppose it's less when many of the screens are empty).

Now that I think about it... interiors probably should be handled in the overworld part of the contest, rather than the dungeon part of the contest.


I only brought up Part 2 because I felt it was essential to establish a map limit early on, as such a limit would apply to both halves of the contest. I suppose we do not need to discuss dungeons yet.

[Nightmare]

Maybe this sounds like an off-the-wall idea, but wouldn't an entirely new tileset someone made also be pretty cool for this? If they're going to take the time to draw something and make it beautiful, shouldn't it count for something?

Just some food for thought.

-James

[DragonDePlatino]

Maybe this sounds like an off-the-wall idea, but wouldn't an entirely new tileset someone made also be pretty cool for this? If they're going to take the time to draw something and make it beautiful, shouldn't it count for something?

Just some food for thought.

-James

Well, Koten was made completely from scratch, but it's completely compatible with older versions of Zelda Classic! I think it would work just fine for this, and if you need more 2.5 features (proper item triggers and blocks) I actually already have a ton finished up. Also, I know it works just fine because Quest of Lamba II uses it: http://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=quests&id=482

[Nightmare]

Well, Koten was made completely from scratch, but it's completely compatible with older versions of Zelda Classic! I think it would work just fine for this, and if you need more 2.5 features (proper item triggers and blocks) I actually already have a ton finished up. Also, I know it works just fine because Quest of Lamba II uses it: http://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=quests&id=482

I know if I were a judge and I saw a new tileset compared to an old one, you know who I'd vote for as long as they don't look like shit........ Effort counts.

-James