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SUCCESSOR
08-01-2013, 04:01 PM
Let's get the ball rolling, shall we? First order of business: what rules need to be in place? I think it is agreed that 5th should be more lenient than 4th and especially 3rd but it also needs to follow suit. So let's figure out how we need to limit the possible entries.




5th-Quest-Contest-Rules-First Draft

Quest rules
The following rules may be turned on or off at the quest designers discretion:
"Fast Dungeon Scrolling", "Smooth Vertical Scrolling", "FFC Are Visible While Screen Is Scrolling", "Use Warp Return Points Only", "Invincible Link flickers", "Warps Ignore Arrival X/Y Position When Setting Continue Screen", "Can't push blocks into unwalkable combos", "Push blocks don't move when blocked", "Damage Combos Work On Layers", "Combo cycling on layers", "Scrolling warps don't set the continue point", "Use Old-style warp detection", "Rings affect damage combos", "Multi-directional traps", "Fast Heart refill".

The following rules must be ENABLED: "Items Disappear during hold-up".
All other quest rules must be DISABLED.



Graphics
The original NES Zelda graphical style must remain intact. What this means is that you must use the Classic NES tileset, and are allowed
to create new graphics as long as the changes are minor (judges discretion) and said changes maintain the aesthetic style of the original
game (also judge's discretion).



Shops
You can edit the Shop Types, but shops can't sell "+Max" items (heart containers), Triforce fragments, the big Triforce, the Dust Pile, the Rupee items (?!), Arrow Ammunition or Magic Jars (because the True Arrows / Magic rules are off), and Misc items.
* The same restrictions apply to "Take Only One" Room Types, but they can have "+Max" items in them.
* The same restrictions also apply to Item Drop Sets. Also, Item Drop Sets can't contain items with the "Equipment Item" flag checked.



Enemies
New enemies ARE allowed, and are in fact, mandatory. At least three new enemy types must be introduced. (In the same spirit as 2nd quest which introduced Sword-Stalfos, and Blue/Red Bubbles.) New enemies introduced from the 4th quest are not to be considered "new" and will not count towards this total, or otherwise detract from your own customized creations as well. (You've played the 4th quest, right?)
However, blatant overuse (or otherwise obvious misuse) of the Enemy Editor will likely result in rejection. The goal is to extend the first four quests, not create something completely new. Adding in Death Knights and Octoroks on Crack is probably not a good idea.

Specific Enemy Rules
* No Summoners that can summon bosses, where "bosses" includes the standard bosses, Moldorm, Lanmola and Patra (but not Digdogger Kid). Also, no enemies that split into bosses, and no enemies that grow into bosses.
* Custom bosses (defined as enemies that are not created via the enemy editor) are not allowed.



Items
New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is likely not.

Specific Item Rules
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.



Overworld
In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place. You can change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool.

Specific Overworld Rules
* One DMap for the overworld. The following DMap flags must be enabled, with all others disabled: "Use Caves...",
"Allow 3-Stair Warp Rooms", "Allow Whistle Whirlwinds", "Special Rooms and Guys are in Caves Only".
* One 3-Stair Warp Ring per quest.
* One Whistle Warp Ring per quest.



Dungeons
Dungeons may be made as large or small as one wants and with any room configuration one wants, but the design of any particular room must be consistent with the first four quests. This means one wall on each side, one door of any type at most situated on a wall. The contents of a particular room are left to the designs of the quest maker, but as with the graphics and added items/enemies, faithfulness to the NES design is paramount. Conveyors may be okay. Large superstructures that require the use of several items to destroy may not.

Specific Dungeon Rules
* One DMap per dungeon level! And all DMap Flags must be disabled for dungeon DMaps.
* The Continue screen must be the dungeon's inner entrance screen.
* The Compass Marker screen must be the Triforce Fragment's screen.
* The Triforce Fragment's screen must warp Link to the dungeon's entrance in the overworld. (This is done by setting Side Warp A, by the way.)
* The statue combos in the dungeon's inner entrance screen and the Triforce Fragment's screen cannot shoot fireballs.
* No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.
* All dungeon DMaps must be "NES Dungeon". So no Interiors with persistent secrets and non-functioning doors.
* Don't use the "Treat as Interior Room" flag to bypass various limitations of the "NES Dungeon" DMap type, either.
* There must be exactly 9 levels; no more, no less. Each level must have a map and a compass. You must use boss keys and boss doors. Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss, one triforce piece, and at least one collectable item. The ninth level must only be accessible by collecting all eight triforce pieces. The boss of level 9 must be Ganon, and the
final goal of level 9, and the quest, is to save Zelda.
* Levels must use one of the NES dungeon palettes, and two or more levels can't use the same palette. Level 9 must use "White/Red".
* One Ganon per quest, and one Zelda per quest.
* A "Level 9 Entrance" screen must appear somewhere in Level 9 between the dungeon entrance and Ganon's screen, and can only be used once.


FFCs and Scripts
FFCs and scripts ARE also allowed (Heck even the first quest uses a script to simulate a bug found in the NES version!) with the following exceptions:
* Scripts may not be used to bypass or otherwise ignore any other contest rules.
* Scripts should be used sparringly.
What is permissible script usage you say? Well, for starters, scripting a giant man-eating plant or a wall that shoots streams of fireballs will not be acceptable. Scripting a door that spawns enemies will likely not be allowed. Adding a script to simulate a puzzle found in 2nd quest where you can only go to the nearest three of four immediate rooms without requiring to fill the room with push blocks might be okay. (honestly, I don't know!)


Other
Link can only use NES-style movement and cannot use any of the 2.5 specific modifications (16x16 Link, big link, etc).
Sound Effects cannot be changed.
The Sub-screen may be edited to accommodate new items but must retain the general structure of the original.
New music may be used as long as long it fits in the context of an NES game.
No string control codes, and no lowercase characters in strings. No DMap Intro strings, and no DMap-specific custom minimaps. And no DMap item disabling!


Other misc. criteria for rejection
* If your quest is too easy it will be rejected.
* If your quest is too hard it wil be rejected. (Although I have to note that the hardest entry to date was AlphaDawg's entry... and that won!)

* Note - Rejected quests are not disqualified. If your quest is rejected for one of possible various reasons (also reserved for judges discretion) that doesn't break any obvious rules stated above, you will have an opportunity to fix any problems and resubmit the quest, no questions asked.


Thoughts?

Glenn the Great
08-01-2013, 05:24 PM
These are just my opinions, but here are some things I'd like to see:

- The overall format of the quest stays the same: 9 dungeons, must complete 1-8 to access the 9th.

- Standard quest rules (1st + 2nd quest) and classic tileset.

- All of the classic Z1 items should be present, but new items such as the hookshot are allowed. I'm not sure what items are available nowadays, so there may be need to be some exceptions to this rule.

- No scripting or cutscenes. This is to keep the presentation consistent with Zelda 1.

- Overworld should be the same as in the 1st and 2nd quest, with the allowance for 2 screens to be modified. Modifications should be free-form (not have to be a copy of some other screen on the overworld).

- Dungeons design (block placement, enemy types) should be up to the quest creator. New enemies should be allowed (within reason, as with new items). Any dungeon can have up to 2 items, to make room for any new items included.

- Link starts in the same screen as usual, and the first cave contains the Wooden Sword. Please none of this "swordless Link" bullshit!

Gleeok
08-01-2013, 05:38 PM
I was mostly waiting until 2-week mania subsided at pzc, since the best/most entrants would arguably come from there. Regardless of that, we need a team of volunteer judges and a workable rule-set. While we have until the end of the contest to stock up on judges, the rules need to be priority one.

For judging, the minimum requirements should be that you have to be able to beat 3rd and 4th quests. ...And for some reason I can't find the 4th quest contest thread. :\


[edit] Ninja'd by Glenn while I was looking for the 4th quest thread.

Scripting should be allowed. In fact, scripting is the only way to do more subtle changes to rooms/puzzles, etc.

Orithan
08-01-2013, 06:07 PM
I would have to say no to the requirement to being able to beat the 3rd quest, primarily because of how crazy it is. While the difficulty should still be there (I somehow specialise in crazy difficulty. Anyone who played my old Platinum and Diamond quests can tell you how!), but having to beat the 3rd shouldn't be a requirement.

I agree to many of the other restrictions, including the starting screen one. Swordless is fun for a while, but then it gets old.

Also, can we edit existing enemies and items (so long it is reasonable). If so, then anyone who actually played Zelda's Last Wish will know exactly what I am going to do to the Lynels :evil:

Nightmare
08-01-2013, 08:09 PM
I for one would like to see the Wooden Sword NOT be on Screen 1. Use your head!

Anyway, enemy editor yes (providing the enemies are NES-like, use your head), start on the same screen, classic palette, no improved music and stuff, NES rules.

I haven't played through the 4th, but I think the enemy "groups" should be the same as the NES. Example: Goriyas, Stalfos, Ropes, Wall Masters in Lv. 1 color, Lv. 2 color, and Lv. 7 color, Darknuts, Gibdos, Pols Voice in Lv. 3, Lv. 5, and Lv. 8 color, Wizzrobes, Vires, Like-Likes, Lanmolas in Lv. 4, Lv. 6, and Lv. 9 color. Bosses can be used anywhere. If you're having issues with balance use the enemy editor to correct it!

No dual or more bosses!

I think scripting should be OK, as long as "it's in the spirit of the NES" (like if you do a BS Aquamentus, it's passable). From what little in the 4th I played I saw scripting and enemy editor use.

I gave a teaser to SUCCESSOR about a possible 5th Quest. I'm waiting to hear back on it.

-James

SUCCESSOR
08-01-2013, 08:22 PM
These are just my opinions, but here are some things I'd like to see:

- The overall format of the quest stays the same: 9 dungeons, must complete 1-8 to access the 9th.

- Standard quest rules (1st + 2nd quest) and classic tileset.

- Dungeons design (block placement, enemy types) should be up to the quest creator. New enemies should be allowed (within reason, as with new items). Any dungeon can have up to 2 items, to make room for any new items included.


I agree with these. I would say the graphics included in 2.5 are all fair game. NES rules and NES style dungeons.



- All of the classic Z1 items should be present, but new items such as the hookshot are allowed. I'm not sure what items are available nowadays, so there may be need to be some exceptions to this rule.

- No scripting or cutscenes. This is to keep the presentation consistent with Zelda 1.

- Overworld should be the same as in the 1st and 2nd quest, with the allowance for 2 screens to be modified. Modifications should be free-form (not have to be a copy of some other screen on the overworld).

- Link starts in the same screen as usual, and the first cave contains the Wooden Sword. Please none of this "swordless Link" bullshit!

Not so much these. I don't agree with requiring all Z1 items. If someone doesn't want to include the wand or boomerang what would it matter much? I'd personally like to see new items with the item editor. I also would like to see more leniency with the overworld. Maybe a limit on original screen but also allow some rearranging and tweaking. I think scripting should not only be allowed but encouraged or required. We are finishing the Nth quests with a bang! Obviously items or scripts that interfere with the with Z1 gameplay or feel would be barred. Definitely no cutscenes. Do we really need to force people to start Link and the sword at the same place? I agree with you on the no swordless Link thing. The sword should be easily available at the start of the quest..


I was mostly waiting until 2-week mania subsided at pzc, since the best/most entrants would arguably come from there. Regardless of that, we need a team of volunteer judges and a workable rule-set. While we have until the end of the contest to stock up on judges, the rules need to be priority one.

This topic is just to get the rules layed down. Once we do then we will start figuring who, when, and how. In any case the 2 week contest is about over right? People are playing the quests and voting so that should be wrapped up soon, right?


I would have to say no to the requirement to being able to beat the 3rd quest, primarily because of how crazy it is.

I'm sorry but I agree with Gleeok. A judge for this contest should be able to complete 3rd and should have also completed 4th. We don't want a judge who will trash quests because they are too difficult for him/her.

Gleeok
08-01-2013, 08:41 PM
[edit] Yeah, the 2-week think should be over in a week or two.



I'm sorry but I agree with Gleeok. A judge for this contest should be able to complete 3rd and should have also completed 4th. We don't want a judge who will trash quests because they are too difficult for him/her.

Yeah. I also meant they had to of completed them. For example: QuestWizard basically won the 4th contest[1] *see below*, and you really get a feeling in a few spots of the 3rd quest sort of lingering on in a few dungeons, kind of like the second quest quoting the first, but to a lesser extent.


[1]: QuestWizard was the winner, however it was slightly undecided because of the fact that QW had "the worst overworld" and HoF had "the best". Hence the proposed merger and quest file by _L_.



Also, can anyone find the blasted 4th quest contest thread!!? Gah! ...it had the previous rules in it.

SUCCESSOR
08-01-2013, 08:50 PM
I couldn't tell you where the Fourth Quest topic is because frankly I've never seen it. It happen during my absence from AGN and ZC.

CJC
08-01-2013, 09:00 PM
I think it would be interesting if 5th quest had the freedom to change the classic 'lost woods' maze screens. Any screen with four exits at a choke-point on the Overworld should be fair game for a new maze, especially one that breaks the two classic "up, up" and "north, west, south, west" paths.

Two that come to mind are the screens just before the classic entrance to Level 2: 4D and 5D.

Screen 68 is another good choke-point that would work well for a maze. You can navigate around it, but only by braving the beach.



There are a few others spots where modification for the purpose of adding a maze should be allowed. For example, screen 3B (the upper corner of the four-screen desert) would make a good maze choke-point with just some slight layout modification (to fix walkability problems from wraparound).


Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

SUCCESSOR
08-01-2013, 09:09 PM
I think it would be interesting if 5th quest had the freedom to change the classic 'lost woods' maze screens. Any screen with four exits at a choke-point on the Overworld should be fair game for a new maze, especially one that breaks the two classic "up, up" and "north, west, south, west" paths.

Two that come to mind are the screens just before the classic entrance to Level 2: 4D and 5D.

Screen 68 is another good choke-point that would work well for a maze. You can navigate around it, but only by braving the beach.

There are a few others spots where modification for the purpose of adding a maze should be allowed. For example, screen 3B (the upper corner of the four-screen desert) would make a good maze choke-point with just some slight layout modification (to fix walkability problems from wraparound).

I'm all for this.


Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

I don't know how I feel about this.

Gleeok
08-01-2013, 09:18 PM
Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

Someone did that before! It was not fun and I quit playing it. No! :P


...I'm starting to think the 4th thread was archived and/or deleted. Google also fails, and archive.org did not archive much of early 2009 (january?)

SUCCESSOR
08-01-2013, 09:30 PM
Is there anyone around who judged or participated in Fourth Quest Contest?

I don't know where it would have been archived. Not that I looked through all of it I just didn't see anywhere that it would be.

Nightmare
08-01-2013, 09:40 PM
Personally, if I could use the Demo Tileset for the 5th Quest that'd be a godsend, but honestly, that would be asking for too much.

-James

Gleeok
08-01-2013, 09:42 PM
Good question. I was. QuestWizard is around at purezc still. I don't know of anyone else, though, probably because of name-changes becoming all the rage, but I could be wrong.

I swore it was started by jman2050 or _L_, so I also did a thread search for them as well. Oh well. I should be able to recreate them (which will need to be updated for sure).

SUCCESSOR
08-01-2013, 10:36 PM
Doesn't jman2050 poke his head around every now and then?

What tiles are there in the Demo Tileset? Personally I think editing the palette would be okay if it stayed within the same number of colors. I don't know how anyone else feels about that.

Glenn the Great
08-01-2013, 11:11 PM
...I'm starting to think the 4th thread was archived and/or deleted. Google also fails, and archive.org did not archive much of early 2009 (january?)


I don't know where it would have been archived. Not that I looked through all of it I just didn't see anywhere that it would be.

It could be in one of the forums under Private Archives. You can only see them in the Admin CP, they are not indexed by search, and are also set up currently to be browseable only by Super Administrators.

SUCCESSOR
08-01-2013, 11:29 PM
Yeah, I am aware. I was speaking of the forums that have been archived. I don't see why it would be in ZC Suggestions, Bugs, or Scripting.

Gleeok
08-02-2013, 01:37 AM
It wasn't. Guess where it was?! That's right: Beta Discussion. (*Smacks whomever put that into the private archive with a giant rubber mallet*)

Anyway, I've fixed it. It's viewable here: http://armageddongames.net/showthread.php?90847-The-Official-4th-Quest-Contest

Give me a few minutes to work up a rough draft.

Binx
08-02-2013, 03:04 AM
Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.

I'm actually doing something similar to this in my quest... Although, I'm not so sadistic as to make people piece out and memorize all 12 mazes...

Nightmare
08-02-2013, 03:10 AM
May we please have Slash->Nothing and "Slash->Secret" combos if possible and maybe for dungeon entrances? (Slash->Item is definitely out). This would make for some interesting puzzles and add some flavor.

-James

Gleeok
08-02-2013, 03:35 AM
Whew! Okay guys, lets weed out and append to it. I've removed outdated or redundant rules, and added in new rules and requirements. They are also categorized by sections now as well.



5th-Quest-Contest-Rules-First Draft

Quest rules
The following rules may be turned on or off at the quest designers discretion:
"Fast Dungeon Scrolling", "Smooth Vertical Scrolling", "FFC Are Visible While Screen Is Scrolling", "Use Warp Return Points Only", "Invincible Link flickers", "Warps Ignore Arrival X/Y Position When Setting Continue Screen", "Can't push blocks into unwalkable combos", "Push blocks don't move when blocked", "Damage Combos Work On Layers", "Combo cycling on layers", "Scrolling warps don't set the continue point", "Use Old-style warp detection", "Rings affect damage combos", "Multi-directional traps", "Fast Heart refill".

The following rules must be ENABLED: "Items Disappear during hold-up".
All other quest rules must be DISABLED.



Graphics
The original NES Zelda graphical style must remain intact. What this means is that you must use the Classic NES tileset, and are allowed
to create new graphics as long as the changes are minor (judges discretion) and said changes maintain the aesthetic style of the original
game (also judge's discretion).



Shops
You can edit the Shop Types, but shops can't sell "+Max" items (heart containers), Triforce fragments, the big Triforce, the Dust Pile, the Rupee items (?!), Arrow Ammunition or Magic Jars (because the True Arrows / Magic rules are off), and Misc items.
* The same restrictions apply to "Take Only One" Room Types, but they can have "+Max" items in them.
* The same restrictions also apply to Item Drop Sets. Also, Item Drop Sets can't contain items with the "Equipment Item" flag checked.



Enemies
New enemies ARE allowed, and are in fact, mandatory. At least three new enemy types must be introduced. (In the same spirit as 2nd quest which introduced Sword-Stalfos, and Blue/Red Bubbles.) New enemies introduced from the 4th quest are not to be considered "new" and will not count towards this total, or otherwise detract from your own customized creations as well. (You've played the 4th quest, right?)
However, blatant overuse (or otherwise obvious misuse) of the Enemy Editor will likely result in rejection. The goal is to extend the first four quests, not create something completely new. Adding in Death Knights and Octoroks on Crack is probably not a good idea.

Specific Enemy Rules
* No Summoners that can summon bosses, where "bosses" includes the standard bosses, Moldorm, Lanmola and Patra (but not Digdogger Kid). Also, no enemies that split into bosses, and no enemies that grow into bosses.
* Custom bosses (defined as enemies that are not created via the enemy editor) are not allowed.



Items
New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is likely not.

Specific Item Rules
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.



Overworld
In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place. You can change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool.

Specific Overworld Rules
* One DMap for the overworld. The following DMap flags must be enabled, with all others disabled: "Use Caves...",
"Allow 3-Stair Warp Rooms", "Allow Whistle Whirlwinds", "Special Rooms and Guys are in Caves Only".
* One 3-Stair Warp Ring per quest.
* One Whistle Warp Ring per quest.



Dungeons
Dungeons may be made as large or small as one wants and with any room configuration one wants, but the design of any particular room must be consistent with the first four quests. This means one wall on each side, one door of any type at most situated on a wall. The contents of a particular room are left to the designs of the quest maker, but as with the graphics and added items/enemies, faithfulness to the NES design is paramount. Conveyors may be okay. Large superstructures that require the use of several items to destroy may not.

Specific Dungeon Rules
* One DMap per dungeon level! And all DMap Flags must be disabled for dungeon DMaps.
* The Continue screen must be the dungeon's inner entrance screen.
* The Compass Marker screen must be the Triforce Fragment's screen.
* The Triforce Fragment's screen must warp Link to the dungeon's entrance in the overworld. (This is done by setting Side Warp A, by the way.)
* The statue combos in the dungeon's inner entrance screen and the Triforce Fragment's screen cannot shoot fireballs.
* No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.
* All dungeon DMaps must be "NES Dungeon". So no Interiors with persistent secrets and non-functioning doors.
* Don't use the "Treat as Interior Room" flag to bypass various limitations of the "NES Dungeon" DMap type, either.
* There must be exactly 9 levels; no more, no less. Each level must have a map and a compass. You must use boss keys and boss doors. Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss, one triforce piece, and at least one collectable item. The ninth level must only be accessible by collecting all eight triforce pieces. The boss of level 9 must be Ganon, and the
final goal of level 9, and the quest, is to save Zelda.
* Levels must use one of the NES dungeon palettes, and two or more levels can't use the same palette. Level 9 must use "White/Red".
* One Ganon per quest, and one Zelda per quest.
* A "Level 9 Entrance" screen must appear somewhere in Level 9 between the dungeon entrance and Ganon's screen, and can only be used once.


FFCs and Scripts
FFCs and scripts ARE also allowed (Heck even the first quest uses a script to simulate a bug found in the NES version!) with the following exceptions:
* Scripts may not be used to bypass or otherwise ignore any other contest rules.
* Scripts should be used sparringly.
What is permissible script usage you say? Well, for starters, scripting a giant man-eating plant or a wall that shoots streams of fireballs will not be acceptable. Scripting a door that spawns enemies will likely not be allowed. Adding a script to simulate a puzzle found in 2nd quest where you can only go to the nearest three of four immediate rooms without requiring to fill the room with push blocks might be okay. (honestly, I don't know!)


Other
Link can only use NES-style movement and cannot use any of the 2.5 specific modifications (16x16 Link, big link, etc).
Sound Effects cannot be changed.
The Sub-screen may be edited to accommodate new items but must retain the general structure of the original.
New music may be used as long as long it fits in the context of an NES game.
No string control codes, and no lowercase characters in strings. No DMap Intro strings, and no DMap-specific custom minimaps. And no DMap item disabling!


Other misc. criteria for rejection
* If your quest is too easy it will be rejected.
* If your quest is too hard it wil be rejected. (Although I have to note that the hardest entry to date was AlphaDawg's entry... and that won!)

* Note - Rejected quests are not disqualified. If your quest is rejected for one of possible various reasons (also reserved for judges discretion) that doesn't break any obvious rules stated above, you will have an opportunity to fix any problems and resubmit the quest, no questions asked.


Thoughts?

CJC
08-02-2013, 03:51 AM
However, blatant overuse (or otherwise obvious misuse) of the Enemy Editor will likely result in rejection. The goal is to extend the first four quests, not create something completely new. Adding in Death Knights and Octoroks on Crack is probably not a good idea.


There goes my idea to use Death Knights and enemy placement flags to create deadly enemy barriers on the overworld map!

...Just kidding, I think this contest is a little too restrictive for me. Plus, I've never made a quest that was more difficult than eating a sandwich.

Gleeok
08-02-2013, 03:56 AM
There goes my idea to use Death Knights and enemy placement flags to create deadly enemy barriers on the overworld map!

...Just kidding, I think this contest is a little too restrictive for me. Plus, I've never made a quest that was more difficult than eating a sandwich.

I'll have you know that this is the least restrictive guideline yet!

(What is too restrictive, exactly?)

CJC
08-02-2013, 04:05 AM
(What is too restrictive, exactly?)

It's not something that can be changed, given the nature of the contest. The classic overworld and tileset are just tools that I'm not comfortable using.
But if it makes you feel better, I WILL be actively participating in the other bundled quest project, "Brand New World"



On an unrelated note, I think Fifth Quest's icon should be Link and Zelda doing a high-five! ...Or maybe just holding their hands in the air, like at the end of the game.

Orithan
08-02-2013, 06:28 AM
A couple of questions:
Are you allowed to create multi-stage enemies? Say I want to recreate the Kandokyan enemy from Oracle of Ages (that candle-head enemy seen in levels 6 and 8) and I want to use three separate slots in the enemy editor to create it; A first stage where you must light it's wick up (with a Candle or something similar) where it "splits" into a second stage where it runs around madly and is invincible until it "tribbles" into a 0hp "third stage" enemy with its death effect set to "Explode", would that be allowed?
Are you allowed to modify existing enemies or items. Say I want to nerf the Wand to put into Level 3 and make the Blue Lynel immune to the Boomerang, would you allow that?

Imzogelmo
08-02-2013, 02:54 PM
* No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.


This is actually the only one I disagree with. I think, properly done, this could be used as an extension to the classic feel.

And on the topic of mazes, I once made a dungeon with a maze to solve in it, and I felt like that worked really well.

As for scripting, would it be acceptable to make a scripted fireball shooter, to more closely match the behavior of the original LoZ statues?
(At one time I had modified Saffith's Homing Fireball Shooter script to add parameters for their safe zone and firing angle, but I seem to have lost that file with my old computer).

Gleeok
08-02-2013, 06:02 PM
Just a quick note that I am only responding based on the current state of the 5th rules, which may change until the contest actually begins. (And probably will slightly change)



This is actually the only one I disagree with. I think, properly done, this could be used as an extension to the classic feel.

And on the topic of mazes, I once made a dungeon with a maze to solve in it, and I felt like that worked really well.

The "fall from ceilings" pattern rule might be questionable. Sure, I can see how if you are in a level B1 then enemies could fall down from above, but by NES logic and limitations it does seem like a stretch.

Mazes are fine! (Just don't overdo it.)



As for scripting, would it be acceptable to make a scripted fireball shooter, to more closely match the behavior of the original LoZ statues?
(At one time I had modified Saffith's Homing Fireball Shooter script to add parameters for their safe zone and firing angle, but I seem to have lost that file with my old computer).
I think fireballs should be consistent with the other quests. That said, I think that this bug is still around in ZC so we should probably just fix it directly instead.



A couple of questions:
Are you allowed to create multi-stage enemies? Say I want to recreate the Kandokyan enemy from Oracle of Ages (that candle-head enemy seen in levels 6 and 8) and I want to use three separate slots in the enemy editor to create it; A first stage where you must light it's wick up (with a Candle or something similar) where it "splits" into a second stage where it runs around madly and is invincible until it "tribbles" into a 0hp "third stage" enemy with its death effect set to "Explode", would that be allowed?

Why, I believe you can make that enemy type according to the current rules. So yes you can! (Just be sure to observe any later suggestions for misuse)



Are you allowed to modify existing enemies or items. Say I want to nerf the Wand to put into Level 3 and make the Blue Lynel immune to the Boomerang, would you allow that?
Sure.

Imzogelmo
08-02-2013, 07:46 PM
I'm all for having a 'fixed' shooter class, but since this bug has been around since the beginning of (ZC) time, my suggested fix would be to have the projectile shooter enemy class have miscellaneous attributes that will cover the needed functionality. And really, I don't expect that to be fixed anytime soon, so I have a workaround.

Specifically:
1. Safe zone distance. This is a distance that, if Link is inside of it, the shooter will remain idle. For compatibility purposes, this is a square around the position of the shooter (which is not aligned with the statue, you'll notice). (Also note, a square is a lot easier to figure than a circle). By default this is 32 pixels.

2. Permissible directions. This is the number of divisions of a circle that the shooter is allowed to choose from. For instance, using 4 would allow it to pick one of the 4 cardinal directions. I believe the NES game could choose 16ths of a circle, meaning there were some spots where you were always safe even outside the safe zone, due to rounding. Yep, that's right, it's not always able to point directly at you.

3. Angle offset. This goes along with the one above, but, imagine you want it to fire in 4 diagonals instead of cardinals. Use an angle offset of 45 to achieve that.

And I'm sure there are countless other options that people may want, but that's what scripting is for. :)

EDIT: I'll put the modified version up somewhere but for now just search on purezc for Saffith's HomingFireballShooter script if interested. All options but angle offset are included.

Gleeok
08-02-2013, 08:32 PM
Okay I see what you are saying now. Yes, that's one of the reasons scripting should be allowed. Not to add grandiose changes, but as a means to subtly change behaviors that may be otherwise difficult using the predefined mechanics of ZQuest.
Not entirely sure if some limit should be imposed to the use of scripts though. (It's a tricky subject and some things may have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.)


I know the rules are a bit long, but the aim is to make sure entries follow suite within the style of the first 4 quests and NES designs, but still allow a great amount of freedom and leeway for users. (The quest rule section might need a rewrite though.) We'll definitely leave this open for a few weeks in order to fine tune. All opinions and suggestions are welcome.

SUCCESSOR
08-02-2013, 10:35 PM
Are you implying scripting cannot be used for scripted enemies and bosses? I mean nothing outrageous but most the built in bosses are pretty lame.

Nightmare
08-02-2013, 11:44 PM
It'd be nice if some common scripts were made available, but didn't break the game (like example, unblockable fireballs on Aquamentus, blockable fireballs on Gohma, etc. etc.), as well as example quests for newcomers.

-James

Gleeok
08-03-2013, 02:03 AM
Are you implying scripting cannot be used for scripted enemies and bosses? I mean nothing outrageous but most the built in bosses are pretty lame.

Where does it say that you have to use the default bosses? Even the 4th quest had beefed up bosses.

For "custom" enemies, I think I am not alone when I say I am a little hesitant to allow completely scripted enemies. The Enemy Editor already can augment enemies in tons of different ways without scripts. As much as ghost.zh is really cool, it might be a bit much for this particular contest. Although if used very, very judiciously, and in the classic NES context it could be fine also. Will people actually use it for good instead of evil? Probably not. I don't even think neofirst had any scripted normal enemies in it.
That said, there is no rule that does not allow scripts and enemies to be used simultaneously. (As you can probably tell by now there are already many loopholes in play simply by allowing scripts.)

Go ahead and try to make a case for scripted enemies in a classic 5th quest contest built from a tool designed to edit just about every aspect of LOZ, and then try to make it sound not ridiculous! :P

[edit] appended to the script and enemy sections.


It'd be nice if some common scripts were made available, but didn't break the game (like example, unblockable fireballs on Aquamentus, blockable fireballs on Gohma, etc. etc.), as well as example quests for newcomers.

-James

Good point. Example 1st and 2nd should be made available.
Script request would be your best bet. (Someone will usually help you out, especially for simple scripts.)

SUCCESSOR
08-03-2013, 05:15 AM
Where does it say that you have to use the default bosses? Even the 4th quest had beefed up bosses.


...Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss...

Orithan
08-03-2013, 08:37 AM
What Gleeok was meaning was more like a non-scripted boss. Who said you can't modify the existing bosses?

ctrl-alt-delete
08-03-2013, 03:08 PM
To access 5th quest, instead of Ganon or Zelda you type DarkNation or DN, obviously.

aturtledoesbite
08-04-2013, 09:36 AM
Hi there. I registered just so I could put in my two cents on all this. (Not that a new guy's opinion is worth anything, but hey.)

I only have a few issues with the rules as they are. First off, there's the "mandatory three new enemies" rule. I can certainly see the arguments for it, but I fear that most contest participants will read that and come up with a solution that can be summed up as "hurr durr i'll make a lynel with 3x as much hp as the blue ones and 2x its damage". Increasing health and damage seems to be a popular action in ZC quests. It is also, in my opinion, a very stupid action. The only thing that increased health accomplishes is that it makes fighting enemies more tedious. Raising damage simply means that a mistake incurs a stronger punishment. While there are cases where either of these actions can be appropriate, there are incredibly few cases where both are appropriate together.

I'm not necessarily saying to get rid of the rule, though. Actually, if I were a participant (I won't be, because Zquest map creation goes over my head), I would use this as the opportunity to make a new enemy species or two. An idea I had was for an enemy that had DR/Wand in the same way Pols Voice have DR/Arrow. Put Link's items through their paces.

Speaking of items, I would be careful about adding a lot of ZC's included items. This isn't even from a "tradition" standpoint; a lot of the other items are simply gamebreaking. Lemme list some of the ones I can think of right now that would destroy any semblance of balance.
Magic Bomb Bag: Everything explodes. Player wins.
Hookshots that do damage: Stunlocks and kills anything that isn't a Wizzrobe or boss, and stunlocks Wizzrobes.
Boomerangs that do damage: See above, except add Darknuts, and it doesn't stun either those or Wizzrobes, but the loss of versatility is made up for by block piercing and diagonal attack.
Life Ring: Essentially, unless a single room can kill Link at full health (which is probably bad balancing in itself), he can't die. Even for the players who aren't very patient, all they have to do is turn off FPS limiting for a few seconds and even the slowest Life Ring will regenerate all of Link's health.

...Huh. I could've sworn there were a lot more. Ah well, if I think of any others, I'll either edit this or make a new post. In any case, included items should be playtested carefully to make sure they don't trivialize the quest.

I'd like to conclude this with one thing that I should not really have to mention, but given the stories I've heard outside of the ZC community about the average quest, I'll mention it anyway. Play time is not an accurate measurement of fun.

(P.S. Pushing blocks into solid tiles is a dumb mechanic.)

SUCCESSOR
08-04-2013, 01:06 PM
Hi there. I registered just so I could put in my two cents on all this. (Not that a new guy's opinion is worth anything, but hey.)


Of course it is. Thanks for posting.



I only have a few issues with the rules as they are. First off, there's the "mandatory three new enemies" rule. I can certainly see the arguments for it, but I fear that most contest participants will read that and come up with a solution that can be summed up as "hurr durr i'll make a lynel with 3x as much hp as the blue ones and 2x its damage". Increasing health and damage seems to be a popular action in ZC quests. It is also, in my opinion, a very stupid action. The only thing that increased health accomplishes is that it makes fighting enemies more tedious. Raising damage simply means that a mistake incurs a stronger punishment. While there are cases where either of these actions can be appropriate, there are incredibly few cases where both are appropriate together.


Obviously forcing requirements like that doesn't guarantee quality results. The quest maker will have to remember that he will be judged on how well he makes use of it. Also the submission can be rejected if the "new" enemies aren't sufficiently different from the original. I personally don't see a darknut with more HP as a new enemy. We can only hope that the contest will inspire people to put in thought and effort and that rejected quests will be resubmitted with improvement.



Speaking of items, I would be careful about adding a lot of ZC's included items. This isn't even from a "tradition" standpoint; a lot of the other items are simply gamebreaking. Lemme list some of the ones I can think of right now that would destroy any semblance of balance.
Magic Bomb Bag: Everything explodes. Player wins.
Hookshots that do damage: Stunlocks and kills anything that isn't a Wizzrobe or boss, and stunlocks Wizzrobes.
Boomerangs that do damage: See above, except add Darknuts, and it doesn't stun either those or Wizzrobes, but the loss of versatility is made up for by block piercing and diagonal attack.
Life Ring: Essentially, unless a single room can kill Link at full health (which is probably bad balancing in itself), he can't die. Even for the players who aren't very patient, all they have to do is turn off FPS limiting for a few seconds and even the slowest Life Ring will regenerate all of Link's health.


This is also a concern but entries will be judged on their difficulty. If an item makes the quest too easy it will likely be rejected.



(P.S. Pushing blocks into solid tiles is a dumb mechanic.)

It's "magic."

Glenn the Great
08-05-2013, 01:32 AM
Great discussion going on.

All I have to say at this point is to be conservative/flexible with advanced features that are "required". What comes to mind are all those great Nintendo DS games that were ruined because the developers thought they had to squeeze in every gimmick. The other custom quest contest should be the one that puts a stronger emphasis on new features.

"Hmm, this game is nice and all, good gameplay, nice graphics, but we noticed that you never have the player shout into the microphone. Lot of missed opportunity there... go see what you can do with that and come show me again later."

CJC
08-06-2013, 04:24 PM
Two questions:

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?

Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?




I've been considering what I would do if I were to participate in this contest, and one of my ideas was to keep to the 'eight item' setup of the inventory but switch out some of the items in play (like replacing the boomerang with the hookshot and the raft with the flippers).

SUCCESSOR
08-07-2013, 12:33 AM
Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?


I couldn't tell you. The 4 quests are protected by a magical force known only to the Devs. When they join rings and say a key phrase only then can the quests be opened.


Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?


There are no rules against it currently. Personally I don't think the flippers would ruin the NES experience.

Imzogelmo
08-07-2013, 01:15 AM
Two questions:

Will the fourth quest be made available unpassworded so we can access certain features implemented in that quest (such as the Green Goriya)?



I don't mean this to be funny, and I'm no dev, but I have example_3rd and example_4th (as well as the first 2). Clearly they were at some point available. I could put them up somewhere if there's a need.

CJC
08-07-2013, 01:20 AM
I don't mean this to be funny, and I'm no dev, but I have example_3rd and example_4th (as well as the first 2). Clearly they were at some point available. I could put them up somewhere if there's a need.

Actually Example_4th is the only one that I'm missing. I don't know when they were available without password, but I do have the first three unlocked on my computer.

In fact, I was shocked that the 'example' versions of the quests were not bundled after 2.5 came out.

EDIT: What I mean to say is yes, it would be awesome if somebody could make those files available. Maybe we could put them on the quest database?

Imzogelmo
08-07-2013, 01:42 AM
OK. Quick and dirty:

http://imzogelmo.webs.com/news.htm


EDIT: Oh yea, if you see that Hitting Jello wav file on my site, its timing works perfectly for a Zol splitting into Gels. Feel free to use it. :)

Gleeok
08-07-2013, 02:12 AM
Thanks.

I actually had no idea there was even an example 3rd or 4th. :shrug: I know we had proposed versions in the alpha builds (up to rev.1200 where they were finalized) for some years though.

CJC
08-07-2013, 05:07 PM
Wow... fourth only has two pages of tiles? How efficient.


Thank you Imzogelmo. It gives us the power to transfer maps to new 'classic tileset' quests, which is really important considering the Overworld needs to remain the same.



EDIT: I was thinking about what CAD said for accessing the quest (Type DarkNation or DN), and I have a few follow-up questions.

First, should you be able to reach this quest by beating Third OR Fourth (either one, but not both since they aren't sequential)?

Second, should we include a memorial room for DarkNation in the quest, and if so what should the string say?



SECOND EDIT: I notice one of the rules is to set the continue point to the dungeon entrance. If my dungeons have more than one entrance, does that break the rules? (I intended to set the continue point to the most obvious Overworld entrance)?

Nightmare
08-07-2013, 07:43 PM
Can someone post the example 3rd and 4th?

-James

-

CJC
08-08-2013, 01:38 AM
Can someone post the example 3rd and 4th?

-James

-

Well you can get the unpassworded 'fourth' from Imzogelmo's site:


OK. Quick and dirty:

http://imzogelmo.webs.com/news.htm

As for the others (1st through 3rd), you'll need to wait for somebody to give permission for them to be uploaded.

====================


* No Summoners that can summon bosses, where "bosses" includes the standard bosses, Moldorm, Lanmola and Patra (but not Digdogger Kid). Also, no enemies that split into bosses, and no enemies that grow into bosses.
* Custom bosses (defined as enemies that are not created via the enemy editor) are not allowed.
I'd like an exception added to this: Bosses should be able to 'split' upon death into other bosses (albeit with the same graphic), to create bosses that have stages of combat (for example, an Aquamentus that shoots fireballs is defeated, 'dies', and splits into one Aquamentus that shoots swords instead).

EDIT: Bummer, it doesn't look like you can set death behavior for bosses. ARGH!

-=SPOILER=-[/spoiler]

SUCCESSOR
08-08-2013, 02:45 AM
Bummer, it doesn't look like you can set death behavior for bosses. ARGH!

That's where scripting is handy. I can write you a script that spawns an enemy(boss) when a boss dies.

CJC
08-08-2013, 02:21 PM
That's where scripting is handy. I can write you a script that spawns an enemy(boss) when a boss dies.

Could said script prevent the boss from dropping its item until the chain of fights has been completed? (Actually, it probably could if an invisible intangible enemy was included on screen and only killed when the final boss is slain).
I did see LoadNPC in the documentation (it appears to function based on enemy ID), but I wasn't sure how I was going to check if the previous stage had been defeated yet. I'm also worried that if I script a boss swap the first one will drop the Big Triforce before the second one spawns (or is that something only the Ganon enemy type can do?)

My other thought was the classic boss stage trick, wherein the boss triggers secrets that turn the floor into pit warps that transport the player to the next phase of the boss. That probably falls under the umbrella of cutscene though.



But I'm getting ahead of myself. I suppose the first step I should take is plotting out the map layout of the dungeons with empty rooms. I guess I was focusing on enemies/bosses so early because I want to compress the tiles into as tight a space as possible (it's so elegant that fourth quest only uses two pages of tiles; it must really save on file space).

jman2050
08-08-2013, 02:38 PM
Doesn't jman2050 poke his head around every now and then?

What tiles are there in the Demo Tileset? Personally I think editing the palette would be okay if it stayed within the same number of colors. I don't know how anyone else feels about that.

sup

I started the 4th quest contest and attempted to judge it but I wasn't up to the task. I *think* either _L_ or DarkDragon ultimately decided the winner of the contest, but my memory is hazy.

Actually thinking about it now I should still have all the entries archived somewhere on this PC...

Zim
08-08-2013, 03:11 PM
There is a function in the last quest file I posted that spawns any enemy, including bosses, while a)the number of current enemies is less than X, b)there's a trigger variable int Z that is less than Y. The script sets Y to +=1 of what it was when the enemy dies, and Y can be set to a number >1 so that the spawning happens as many times as desired.

"In Loving Memory of Dark Nation."

It wouldn't be difficult to modify one of the item spawning functions in there to drop the item desired when Z==whatever number of bosses get defeated in the room.

CJC
08-08-2013, 05:14 PM
There is a function in the last quest file I posted that spawns any enemy, including bosses, while a)the number of current enemies is less than X, b)there's a trigger variable int Z that is less than Y. The script sets Y to +=1 of what it was when the enemy dies, and Y can be set to a number >1 so that the spawning happens as many times as desired.

"In Loving Memory of Dark Nation."

It wouldn't be difficult to modify one of the item spawning functions in there to drop the item desired when Z==whatever number of bosses get defeated in the room.
Would you mind posting that script in a code box here? I couldn't find the quest you were referencing.

...Unless you mean your big scrolling project, but that's not what you're talking about... is it?

Zim
08-08-2013, 05:36 PM
Would you mind posting that script in a code box here? I couldn't find the quest you were referencing.

...Unless you mean your big scrolling project, but that's not what you're talking about... is it?

Actually it was, I think. :)
void E(enum,xpos,ypos,numnpc<this,triggerflag#toset,iftriggerflagis<=thisnum,setflagtothisnumwhenscriptruns)
It was something like that.

SUCCESSOR
08-08-2013, 06:08 PM
sup

I started the 4th quest contest and attempted to judge it but I wasn't up to the task. I *think* either _L_ or DarkDragon ultimately decided the winner of the contest, but my memory is hazy.

Actually thinking about it now I should still have all the entries archived somewhere on this PC...

Schweet. I'd like to play through all the 4th contest entries. What do you think of the rules so far? I think we've got em down and ready to go. Edit, also sup.

CJC I can PM or chat with you about specifics on the script to keep from derailing this thread.

Gleeok
08-08-2013, 06:55 PM
Actually the rules need a minor facelift. They need to offer more freedom with what you can do, but at the same time place more restrictions on the NES side of it. This sounds kind of stupid, I know, but what's most likely to happen is some otherwise great entries (possibly winners) that just don't "feel" like an NES quest so its score drops considerably.

I'm going to quickly run through the 4th with cheats on first, though.



Second, should we include a memorial room for DarkNation in the quest, and if so what should the string say?

We probably should. We could reserve a room on the OW for secrets which no entrants can use, except for writing "RESERVED".




Will we be able to use certain passive equipment that is unusual, like the flippers?
I've been considering what I would do if I were to participate in this contest, and one of my ideas was to keep to the 'eight item' setup of the inventory but switch out some of the items in play (like replacing the boomerang with the hookshot and the raft with the flippers).

This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...



sup

I started the 4th quest contest and attempted to judge it but I wasn't up to the task. I *think* either _L_ or DarkDragon ultimately decided the winner of the contest, but my memory is hazy.

Actually thinking about it now I should still have all the entries archived somewhere on this PC...
Sup.
It was _L_. DarkDragon and I both voted the same for "most fun" which coincided with _L_'s 2nd pick. None of the quests were able to win all across the board making it a rather difficult affair. Thank you for disappearing btw. ;)

To remedy this I'm thinking of a possible joint judging process. The entrants are publicly released and after a period of months, are voted by the community as well as official judges. In order for this to be fair, there needs to be options for: "Completed", "Played Most Of", "Played Some", "Didn't Play", as well as various categories relevant to the 5th.

CJC
08-08-2013, 08:00 PM
Actually the rules need a minor facelift. They need to offer more freedom with what you can do, but at the same time place more restrictions on the NES side of it. This sounds kind of stupid, I know, but what's most likely to happen is some otherwise great entries (possibly winners) that just don't "feel" like an NES quest so its score drops considerably.

This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...
On the boomerang:
-=SPOILER=-

On the Flippers:
-=SPOILER=-

On the Bait
-=SPOILER=-



Perhaps we should just let contestants build the quests using the current rule proposal and then--if the 'Classic Zelda' feeling is insufficient (as rated by the public who play the quest)--make suggestions for correcting the issue on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of places where the Classic feel could be broken, but that is a matter of opinion and it might be better to make corrections rather than restrictions. In other words, leave it up to the majority. Since the quest is for everybody, we should poll if the quest is 'classic' enough.


AH, that's it! Contestants should open a thread when they make the submission and said thread should have poll/feedback to determine how to make the quest 'more' classic.

Zim
08-08-2013, 08:19 PM
On the boomerang:
-=SPOILER=-

On the Flippers:
-=SPOILER=-

On the Bait
-=SPOILER=-



Perhaps we should just let contestants build the quests using the current rule proposal and then--if the 'Classic Zelda' feeling is insufficient (as rated by the public who play the quest)--make suggestions for correcting the issue on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of places where the Classic feel could be broken, but that is a matter of opinion and it might be better to make corrections rather than restrictions. In other words, leave it up to the majority. Since the quest is for everybody, we should poll if the quest is 'classic' enough.


AH, that's it! Contestants should open a thread when they make the submission and said thread should have poll/feedback to determine how to make the quest 'more' classic.

Upon reading this post I have come upon the realization that a 5th quest should not add or subtract from any previous game mechanics of tLoZ and be a rearrangement of the original LoZ map with absolutely no changes in game mechanics. That's my final opinion and vote on this matter.

SUCCESSOR
08-08-2013, 08:56 PM
Upon reading this post I have come upon the realization that a 5th quest should not add or subtract from any previous game mechanics of tLoZ and be a rearrangement of the original LoZ map with absolutely no changes in game mechanics. That's my final opinion and vote on this matter.

BOOOOO-RING! I would rather eat plain white rice 3 meals a day for a month.

Zim
08-08-2013, 09:47 PM
BOOOOO-RING! I would rather eat plain white rice 3 meals a day for a month.

I actually did that once.. Except for it was only 1 or 2, and I had some butter and sugar, and I skipped some days.
Not recommended PoA.

I just started thinking that if it were me, I'd make the 5th quest as if it were made within the limitations of the NES LoZ, and as if it were a quest that was in the original NES game. Isn't that the point of calling it 5th Quest anyway?

I'll be glad to see whatever comes of it either way.

Gleeok
08-08-2013, 11:14 PM
Idea: How many times can you listen to the same 7 measures of the NES dungeon music without going insane? 200 times? 500 times? 5,000 times? How about an NES dungeon midi contest to replace the 3rd - 5th defaults?

The arrangement should be in the NES style and soundfonts, must start with the NES dungeon theme, and include at the least a B and C section with a coda at the composers discretion, and be at least 3 minutes without loops.

What do you guys think?

SUCCESSOR
08-08-2013, 11:54 PM
This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...


While I am not particularly fond of the hookshot or the flippers there is currently nothing in the rules against using them or removing NES items from being accessible in the quest. Are you suggesting we add that to the rules?


We probably should. We could reserve a room on the OW for secrets which no entrants can use, except for writing "RESERVED".

While I think adding a screen for DN is a great idea, I don't think we should force it on entrants. I like what c-a-d said about using DarkNation or DN to access the quest or maybe DarkN.


To remedy this I'm thinking of a possible joint judging process. The entrants are publicly released and after a period of months, are voted by the community as well as official judges. In order for this to be fair, there needs to be options for: "Completed", "Played Most Of", "Played Some", "Didn't Play", as well as various categories relevant to the 5th.

I like the idea of a hybrid system of dedicated judges and community voting(which you know because I suggested just such a method to you in chat). Maybe we could merge the two ideas. Each judge awarding their choice a point and each category in community poll awards. Quest with most points wins.

Glenn the Great
08-09-2013, 12:50 AM
This is a good reason why the rules need to save people from themselves. :/ ...Removal of the boomerang is certain to make people not like this quest, and technically the hookshot doesn't add much except a lame "you need item to cross" gimmick. The flippers....erm,,might be nice....or not. On a tactical level they are extremely annoying since instead of otherwise using the ladder you are now in water and cannot attack...


While I am not particularly fond of the hookshot or the flippers there is currently nothing in the rules against using them or removing NES items from being accessible in the quest. Are you suggesting we add that to the rules

My thoughts real quick on some of these item issues:

Boomerang: I agree that the boomerang should be present (more on that in a bit), but since it trivializes many of the enemies, it might not be a bad idea to bury it a little deeper so that it isn't accessible too soon.

Hookshot: I'll admit to being a lifelong fan of the hookshot, but I don't really see it as lame.
The raft and the stepladder are already lame "you need item to cross" gimmicks, but the hookshot serves that purpose and more.
It makes the stepladder become obsolete in certain situations the same way the book+wand makes the red candle obsolete in certain situations.
Hookshot is pretty powerful though, so it should probably not be available until later when most of the enemies are immune to the thing.

Flippers: I just don't feel that the flippers jive well at all with the Z1 style. It would feel weird being able to swim in the eastern ocean where you would need to be forced from swimming off the overworld map, or worse.. colliding onto unwalkable sections upon screen transitions while swimming. I'm not saying to ban it... maybe someone can pull it off well and prove me wrong. I'm just saying I feel very iffy about it.

Lastly, the idea of not having items from Zelda 1 be present doesn't sit well with me at all.
What I'm envisioning is some poor quest player whittling away dozens of hours of his or her life trying desperately to find that red candle, or that boomerang, that the quest creator thought would be cool to not include in the game.
This game has a screen that scrolls down after the title screen advertising all the items... they should all show up somewhere.

CJC
08-09-2013, 01:16 AM
Lastly, the idea of not having items from Zelda 1 be present doesn't sit well with me at all.
What I'm envisioning is some poor quest player whittling away dozens of hours of his or her life trying desperately to find that red candle, or that boomerang, that the quest creator thought would be cool to not include in the game.
This game has a screen that scrolls down after the title screen advertising all the items... they should all show up somewhere.
"NOBODY WANTS THAT STALE OLD MEAT. MAYBE YOU CAN USE IT SOME OTHER WAY."
Goriya after finding the bait in a dungeon room. If you press the B button with it equipped...


By which I mean, perhaps we restrict the APPEARANCE of the classic equipment, but not its function.

SUCCESSOR
08-09-2013, 01:50 AM
Lastly, the idea of not having items from Zelda 1 be present doesn't sit well with me at all.
What I'm envisioning is some poor quest player whittling away dozens of hours of his or her life trying desperately to find that red candle, or that boomerang, that the quest creator thought would be cool to not include in the game.
This game has a screen that scrolls down after the title screen advertising all the items... they should all show up somewhere.

That is for 1st quest. Does that list of items lead you to believe those are all in every custom quest you play?

Nightmare
08-09-2013, 02:09 AM
Idea: How many times can you listen to the same 7 measures of the NES dungeon music without going insane? 200 times? 500 times? 5,000 times? How about an NES dungeon midi contest to replace the 3rd - 5th defaults?

The arrangement should be in the NES style and soundfonts, must start with the NES dungeon theme, and include at the least a B and C section with a coda at the composers discretion, and be at least 3 minutes without loops.

What do you guys think?

Would LOVE this. It'd go great for any new stuff.

-James

Gleeok
08-09-2013, 02:23 AM
Guys, guys. Glenn's point is extremely valid, and essentially similar to something I mentioned on page 2:
"This is not a custom quest contest, this is a 5th quest contest."

There is a difference. :tongue2:


Would LOVE this. It'd go great for any new stuff.
-James
There's enough musicians and music savvy people in the ZC community where this could actually work I think. I actually did a Zelda Overture of sorts way back in 2005 with symphonic VST sounds.

SUCCESSOR
08-09-2013, 12:49 PM
Guys, guys. Glenn's point is extremely valid, and essentially similar to something I mentioned on page 2:
"This is not a custom quest contest, this is a 5th quest contest."


That's hardly a point. You think not having a boomerang breaks the NES game more that having say 10 extra custom items? The hookshot adequately replaces the boomerang. forcing the boomerang to be in game forces the quest maker to adjust the subscreen for and and design enemy placement around it when it is unnecessary. What is the difference between the boomerang being stashed in lvl 9 and it being left out?

Can we avoid unnecessary rules? If someone submits an entry that sucks then it can be rejected or receive no votes. The more unnecessary rules the more people will be put off by this contest. The people interested in this competition will be people who have a very good understanding and love of LoZ gameplay.

Binx
08-09-2013, 01:53 PM
I dunno, personally, I think it's a good point. The second quest may have added SOME things, but it was still essentially the same game. I'm not really sure how you can call it a "fifth quest" if the items aren't the same as the first.

SUCCESSOR
08-09-2013, 02:28 PM
I dunno, personally, I think it's a good point. The second quest may have added SOME things, but it was still essentially the same game. I'm not really sure how you can call it a "fifth quest" if the items aren't the same as the first.

So you are saying if 1st quest had the hookshot instead of the boomerang it would be a completely different game?


I think instead of forcing a strict rules involving items and such we I think a better option is to let judging keep people on the right path. We already talked about community voting and categories. Something like:


Most faithful to NES
Most Creative
Best overall experience


This way if someone makes a decision that might lose them a vote in Faithfulness to NES (like leaving out or severely limiting a staple NES item) they'd have to make up for it. Obviously creativity is still limited by the rules.

Binx
08-09-2013, 05:48 PM
Somewhat, yes. The hookshot has different things it can do that the boomerang can't, and vice versa. But also, in my personal opinion, the items used in a given quest help to determine the overall feel of the game. If we're trying to make a game that is a successor to the original NES game, and we're touting it as the "fifth quest", I think it should be kept (mostly) within the constraints of what the NES game was capable, the whole point of a "second quest" is that it's supposed to be the SAME game, but with altered item placement, dungeons and harder enemies. You add the hookshot, then you HAVE to redesign the overworld to accommodate it, and that WOULD, in my opinion, change the feel of the game.


Besides, the same argument could be said about if people nerf weapons or place them too late in the game to be useful. If they do that, people won't vote for the game, cuz it's not fun.

SUCCESSOR
08-09-2013, 06:13 PM
Somewhat, yes. The hookshot has different things it can do that the boomerang can't, and vice versa. But also, in my personal opinion, the items used in a given quest help to determine the overall feel of the game. If we're trying to make a game that is a successor to the original NES game, and we're touting it as the "fifth quest", I think it should be kept (mostly) within the constraints of what the NES game was capable, the whole point of a "second quest" is that it's supposed to be the SAME game, but with altered item placement, dungeons and harder enemies. You add the hookshot, then you HAVE to redesign the overworld to accommodate it, and that WOULD, in my opinion, change the feel of the game.

There would be a [very] small impact on gameplay if the hookshot was swapped with the boomerang. You don't have to redesign the overworld to accommodate the hookshot and doing so wasn't part of the hypothetical situation I asked you about. The only change is the item swap. There are no boomerang triggers in Z1 and it isn't required to defeat any enemies. The Nth quests have continued in the tradition of 1st and 2nd but have also become more lenient to fit in with more modern ZC quests. Letting 5th quest entrants have the ability to alter or 86 staple Z1 items that have little effect on gameplay is just fine in my book. The boomerang, red candle, and wand only serve to make the game accessible to beginners and people with little skill without being overly difficult. This is why many skilled players consider these items to be almost game-breaking.



Besides, the same argument could be said about if people nerf weapons or place them too late in the game to be useful. If they do that, people won't vote for the game, cuz it's not fun.

That is a decision they will have to make isn't it? You can make strict rules about items but it will only discourage possible participants or have them looking for loopholes. Fun in your book might mean "too easy" but some people like a fair challenge and the absence of overpowered items.

Nightmare
08-09-2013, 07:53 PM
My quote from my roommate:

"If it was in the NES, it should be in the 5th Quest and follow the NES"

This comes from a player.

-James

SUCCESSOR
08-09-2013, 08:07 PM
My quote from my roommate:

"If it was in the NES, it should be in the 5th Quest and follow the NES"

This comes from a player.

-James

Tell your roommate that if he isn't a registered and active member of AGN his opinion doesn't matter. >:D

Gleeok
08-09-2013, 09:07 PM
How about this then: No.



Items
New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not.

Specific Item Rules
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.

Granted, this was not exactly entirely clear on the matter. It only said "Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay", which didn't outright say you couldn't remove said item from existence.



Items
New items are also allowed provided they are used sparingly and with extreme prejudice[1]. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay provided it is in line with NES mechanics. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not okay. Replacing existing items with another item type is not allowed.


Better?

CJC
08-09-2013, 09:53 PM
Okay then (so much for using the bait as a bludgeon!).


I'll find a different way to restrict secret access until certain dungeons are cleared. I recommend others do the same (If anybody else had ideas that were rendered ineligible because of this declaration, fret not! You can still use them in the "Brave New World" quest contest or a collaborative 'close to NES' quest)

Gleeok
08-09-2013, 10:06 PM
There are still tons of ways to restrict access to places:
Bait, Ladder, Raft, Bracelet, Bow, Wand(or potion), Whistle, Magic Key, Candle, Triforce, etc. That's already one for each Level right there!

Also you might not want the quest too linear. Having to do all the levels in order is lame! Sometimes protecting items with lots of strong enemies is just as effective!

CJC
08-09-2013, 10:15 PM
There are still tons of ways to restrict access to places:
Bait, Ladder, Raft, Bracelet, Bow, Wand(or potion), Whistle, Magic Key, Candle, Triforce, etc. That's already one for each Level right there!

Also you might not want the quest too linear. Having to do all the levels in order is lame! Sometimes protecting items with lots of strong enemies is just as effective!

Well, I was talking more about 'Heart or Potion' rooms on the overworld, but okay. You've given me another idea which may be better.


What's the idea, you ask? Well...
It's a secret to everybody!

Nightmare
08-09-2013, 10:35 PM
Tell your roommate that if he isn't a registered and active member of AGN his opinion doesn't matter. >:D


How about this then: No.

Items
New items are also allowed. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not.

Specific Item Rules
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs, which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.

Granted, this was not exactly entirely clear on the matter. It only said "Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay", which didn't outright say you couldn't remove said item from existence.

New items are also allowed provided they are used sparingly and with extreme prejudice[1]. Adding a variant to an existing item is likely okay provided it is in line with NES mechanics. Adding the spin attack, Din's Fire, or a scripted Flamethrower is not okay. Replacing existing items with another item type is not allowed.

Better?

I think that was my point. From a player's perspective they're expecting an NES quest with NES items.

This is also why I think we should've done a custom quest contest instead of a 5th, but oh well. Guess that's what "Brave New World" is for.

-James

Gleeok
08-09-2013, 10:41 PM
Simple poll: Either say "yes", or "no", and please be honest.


Just getting a rough idea of how many entries there will be in order to figure out the fairest and most reasonable method of judging them. Right now judges are in short supply, so a community review and voting process would seem like a good way to help choose the top xx percentile of entries and also help choose the winner if there are more than what would be reasonable otherwise. After all, the quest is by the community, for the community, so I think that it is only fair they get a vote. Of course, anyone is free to help improve this process as well, so feel free to post your suggestions here as well.

Gleeok
08-09-2013, 11:15 PM
This is also why I think we should've done a custom quest contest instead of a 5th, but oh well. Guess that's what "Brave New World" is for.


One problem is that a good custom quest with all the bells and whistles could take years. It just doesn't make for a good contest because it is an almost impossible task for one person. By comparison, a (many) good 5th quest(s) is totally doable in a reasonable amount of time, and because the tools are all rudimentary and easy to use ZQuest features, it can be a fun and not all-consuming experience as well.

Take a look at neofirst, which was in development since 2006, and that may or may not be completed anytime soon.

Nightmare
08-09-2013, 11:26 PM
One problem is that a good custom quest with all the bells and whistles could take years. It just doesn't make for a good contest because it is an almost impossible task for one person. By comparison, a (many) good 5th quest(s) is totally doable in a reasonable amount of time, and because the tools are all rudimentary and easy to use ZQuest features, it can be a fun and not all-consuming experience as well.

Take a look at neofirst, which was in development since 2006, and that may or may not be completed anytime soon.

Then why don't you put a development cap on it, say, six months? I know there will be the people that wait until the last minute, but if you give them a scope of six months they can plan it out and start planning things out and determining what they can and cannot do: That's how I'd approach it.

-James

SUCCESSOR
08-09-2013, 11:57 PM
Better?

No. It is still strict and I disagree with it. It will only discourage possible entrants.

Imzogelmo
08-10-2013, 12:01 AM
Argh, now that I've seen it, I must answer!

This is a toughie, because psychologically, if I say 'no', that will make me want to do it. However, if I say 'yes', I'll feel like I'm doing it out of obligation instead of fun, so I'll begrudge it. I have some good ideas for dungeons and such, and the challenge of working within the restrictions of the slightly-beyond-4th-quest rules does appeal to me, but am I going to have the time? Probably not.

I could certainly make a good dungeon or maybe 2. I have no trouble tuning it to be easy or hard. But a whole quest? I'm not sure if I'll have time to do it to the level of quality that is needed.

So... I'd probably be better as a player or judge. And maybe I'll decide to throw a hat in the ring, but probably not. For now, put me down as a 'no.'

SUCCESSOR
08-10-2013, 12:05 AM
How are judges in short supply for a contest that hasn't started? I also don't see how you can get an estimate anywhere close considering it hasn't been announced officially or announced at all at PureZC. Judges and Judging method don't even need to be set until entries are starting to be accepted. If people are given a month(at least) to make their entry then we have a month to get judges and decide on the best way for the community to vote. The contest needs to be officially announced(here and at purezc) before this poll/thread will yield any relevant information.

Gleeok
08-10-2013, 12:57 AM
How are judges in short supply for a contest that hasn't started? I also don't see how you can get an estimate anywhere close considering it hasn't been announced officially or announced at all at PureZC. Judges and Judging method don't even need to be set until entries are starting to be accepted. If people are given a month(at least) to make their entry then we have a month to get judges and decide on the best way for the community to vote. The contest needs to be officially announced(here and at purezc) before this poll/thread will yield any relevant information.

Well for starters, entrants cannot also judge because there would be bias. Secondly, how would you like to play through 10 full length quests in a limited amount of time? If the time restraints on the 4th contest weren't so tight we would've seen 8 entries for that, and even with the 6 that made it, real life issues crept up on half of those responsible for judging the thing, with a few dropping out entirely. This led to the longest "waiting for a result" period only trumped by Duke Nukem Forever. On top of that some of the quests were so close, each in a different way, it was very difficult to decide. I'm just trying to not repeat past mistakes here.

Plus, isn't there the matter of possibly organizing a community quest in the future?

...Wait, weren't you one of the people that suggested a similar voting method in chat?



Argh, now that I've seen it, I must answer!

This is a toughie, because psychologically, if I say 'no', that will make me want to do it. However, if I say 'yes', I'll feel like I'm doing it out of obligation instead of fun, so I'll begrudge it. I have some good ideas for dungeons and such, and the challenge of working within the restrictions of the slightly-beyond-4th-quest rules does appeal to me, but am I going to have the time? Probably not.

I could certainly make a good dungeon or maybe 2. I have no trouble tuning it to be easy or hard. But a whole quest? I'm not sure if I'll have time to do it to the level of quality that is needed.

So... I'd probably be better as a player or judge. And maybe I'll decide to throw a hat in the ring, but probably not. For now, put me down as a 'no.'
lol. The "no" is mostly useless anyway. :tongue2: You are not obligated either way.

Binx
08-10-2013, 02:21 AM
Or encourage entrants to be more creative with how they use the items they've already got.

Binx
08-10-2013, 02:30 AM
I'd really like to say yes, but honestly, I'm not sure I'm up to doing it, I'm not a very good player, so making a "challenging" quest is really hard for me to judge, and I usually end up giving people something way beyond hard. Like Wizzrobes in level one or some stupid shit like that. (Ok, I usually don't do that, but I HAVE been known to give people a room with 2 level 3 stalfos, 2 level 3 goriyas, 2 L2 ropes, 2 bomb octoroks, although I DID cut their HP to 8, and 2 bats... in level 2), Plus, I'm really very busy with Trials of the Gods. Still I really would like to give it a try... I tend to have really good idea, it's just my execution that's lacking. Maybe if I find the time I'll try to do one. I guess put me down as a "maybe"

SUCCESSOR
08-10-2013, 03:33 AM
Well for starters, entrants cannot also judge because there would be bias. Secondly, how would you like to play through 10 full length quests in a limited amount of time? If the time restraints on the 4th contest weren't so tight we would've seen 8 entries for that, and even with the 6 that made it, real life issues crept up on half of those responsible for judging the thing, with a few dropping out entirely. This led to the longest "waiting for a result" period only trumped by Duke Nukem Forever. On top of that some of the quests were so close, each in a different way, it was very difficult to decide. I'm just trying to not repeat past mistakes here.


Obviously entrants cant judge...

I misunderstood the point of this thread when I replied.

SUCCESSOR
08-10-2013, 03:36 AM
Or encourage entrants to be more creative with how they use the items they've already got.

I guess. Don't look for the boomerang early on in my quest though.

Binx
08-10-2013, 04:07 AM
Oh, I totally agree, I'd be putting it in level 5-6, and the magic one in 8 or 9, if it were me.

Glenn the Great
08-11-2013, 12:37 AM
If the time restraints on the 4th contest weren't so tight we would've seen 8 entries for that, and even with the 6 that made it, real life issues crept up on half of those responsible for judging the thing, with a few dropping out entirely. This led to the longest "waiting for a result" period only trumped by Duke Nukem Forever.

I want to remind everybody about what happened with the judging situation during the 3rd Quest Contest.

For that contest there were 3 or 4 judges, and all of them dropped out for one reason or another several months after judging had started.

The Silent Assassin (aka TSA), wanting to salvage the contest, disqualified his own personal entry and then took it upon himself to be the sole judge of the quests himself.
The administration decided to roll with it because without a judge there would be no contest. TSA picked a winner, AlphaDawg, fairly quickly.

There were accusations of favoritism (AlphaDawg was TSA's best friend on the forums), accusations that TSA didn't play all the quests (TSA somehow managed to beat 7 or 8 quests in a matter of maybe a couple weeks).
Then you had the whole back-and-forth with the people accusing the accusers of sour grapes... what do you expect when you only have 1 judge? The whole point of multiple judges is to avoid that sort of controversy.

The point I'm trying to make is that judging these things is an enormous effort, and you want to make sure you have people who understand what they are getting into and will commit to the job, and yes, judging will probably be a several month-long affair.

Gleeok
08-11-2013, 03:07 AM
Thread updated: The poll is now anonymous.


I want to remind everybody about what happened with the judging situation during the 3rd Quest Contest.

For that contest there were 3 or 4 judges, and all of them dropped out for one reason or another several months after judging had started.

The Silent Assassin (aka TSA), wanting to salvage the contest, disqualified his own personal entry and then took it upon himself to be the sole judge of the quests himself.
The administration decided to roll with it because without a judge there would be no contest. TSA picked a winner, AlphaDawg, fairly quickly.

There were accusations of favoritism (AlphaDawg was TSA's best friend on the forums), accusations that TSA didn't play all the quests (TSA somehow managed to beat 7 or 8 quests in a matter of maybe a couple weeks).
Then you had the whole back-and-forth with the people accusing the accusers of sour grapes... what do you expect when you only have 1 judge? The whole point of multiple judges is to avoid that sort of controversy.

The point I'm trying to make is that judging these things is an enormous effort, and you want to make sure you have people who understand what they are getting into and will commit to the job, and yes, judging will probably be a several month-long affair.

Yes, this was actually my main concern. I realize what happened in the 3rd and 4th contests (I was also part of the 4th), so fixing that is a must. What we've decided, and also seems to be the best option, is to have open 5th reviews and judging by the entire community to narrow it down to the top 3 or 4 quests.

What's that, you say!? A popularity contest? How can many people play all those quests when a few cannot? That's crazy!
Not exactly. There won't be any polls and peer reviews will require a full post. Reviews from people that didn't play a quest will not hurt that quests overall rating, provided people are honest (some math may be involved). The goal here is too narrow it down to the top tier contenders where they can be judged fairly. Also, we know if a 5th entry is a strong candidate without having to play it beginning to end, so the developers and final judges reserve the right to save any really good candidates from elimination. In short: If you make a really strong 5th quest, we will know it is good.
Also, from past experience, the majority may not always be right but they get it pretty close most of the time.

Another thing is the possibility of streaming or LP's of many of the quests. New technology is sometimes cool. Ya?

So we're going to see how well this works. :)

erm2003
08-11-2013, 11:43 AM
I'm on the fence myself. I don't have a ton of time normally but I will have a couple weeks that I can devote to this soon and I can probably crank quite a bit of it out and make a decent entry. I will have a better idea in a week or so.

CJC
08-11-2013, 04:57 PM
Wouldn't it be okay for participants to also serve as judges if they:

1.) Were disallowed from voting for their own project

2.) Were REQUIRED to vote for one of the projects they played

3.) Were REQUIRED to give point-by-point explanations for their vote decision, to show they didn't just pick an opponent out of a hat because it was part of the rules.



FYI, I am participating and my quest is going to have [redacted] and [redacted] as well as a [redacted] that will [redacted].

(I've decided to be more secretive about my plans, since announcing them just results in more contest rules. :grief:)

Orithan
08-11-2013, 05:10 PM
I will join in. Even when I don't have access to ZC, I can rough out the room layouts. The dungeom layouts will be themed after [THAT'S CLASSIFIED!] and will contain custom enemies like [THAT'S CLASSIFIED!] and [THAT'S CLASSIFIED!] to make the quest more challenging.

Glenn the Great
08-11-2013, 06:23 PM
I'd like to make a quest for this contest, but having made one for the 3rd quest contest back when I was in High School, and now with my full time job plus other activities on the side, I know I don't have that kind of time anymore.

On the other hand, I figure I could save a lot of time if I start with my old 3rd quest entry, make some tweaks and put on some polish, and enter that in.
Not a whole lot of people have played it so it would still be a new experience for most people, and under the new set of rules I might get to do some things with it that I didn't get to do last time.

Imzogelmo
08-11-2013, 08:44 PM
On the other hand, I figure I could save a lot of time if I start with my old 3rd quest entry, make some tweaks and put on some polish, and enter that in.
Not a whole lot of people have played it so it would still be a new experience for most people, and under the new set of rules I might get to do some things with it that I didn't get to do last time.

That-- sounds like a great idea.

I'd love to play through some of the old entries to 3rd and 4th quest contests... Just to see what works and what doesn't. Is that possible?

All this discussion makes me really want to throw my hat into the ring. :)

Goriya
08-15-2013, 08:20 PM
I have decided to say "fuck it" and am entering this contest. Prepare yourself, because it's time for Super Omega 5th Quest Fun-Time!

Chris Miller
08-15-2013, 08:24 PM
I too shall enter.

Goriya
08-15-2013, 08:36 PM
Soooo...when do we have to start? Can we start now? Or do we have to wait for the announcement?

CJC
08-15-2013, 08:49 PM
Soooo...when do we have to start? Can we start now? Or do we have to wait for the announcement?

Well you could start six hours before the quest is due (like that one crazy guy from the two-weeks contest), but I recommend starting as early as possible. Several people have already begun constructing their 5th quest submission and I know at least one has a functional 9 dungeon prototype already.

This won't be like the two-week contest where the challenge is the time constraint; rather the challenge is to build a quest that is so memorable that it is worth bundling with Zelda Classic.

Gleeok
08-15-2013, 09:41 PM
Soooo...when do we have to start? Can we start now? Or do we have to wait for the announcement?
You can start whenever you want. Since there's no rule disallowing previously created content to be rehashed, or any possibly way to prevent this anyway, you could have started 10 years ago!


Wouldn't it be okay for participants to also serve as judges if they:

1.) Were disallowed from voting for their own project

2.) Were REQUIRED to vote for one of the projects they played

3.) Were REQUIRED to give point-by-point explanations for their vote decision, to show they didn't just pick an opponent out of a hat because it was part of the rules.

Sure, why not. Vote for yourself if you think it's the best one. :P
As long as people don't start flaming I think it would be amusing to have some contestant voting data. (Which in fairness will likely be handled separately)

Nightmare
08-16-2013, 12:55 AM
Allow people to vote for more than one. That'd be the best way to handle voter bias.

-James

Glenn the Great
08-16-2013, 01:49 AM
Allow people to vote for more than one. That'd be the best way to handle voter bias.

-James

I don't think that's much of an improvement.

If we're going to make community voting a component (or hell, even if it's only official judges) I suggest doing a Borda count.
For those unfamiliar, that's where every person votes for their top 3 (or other number) favorites in order of preference. Each placement is worth a number of points, to be totaled up among the votes to decide a winner.

Nightmare
08-16-2013, 02:05 AM
I don't think that's much of an improvement.

If we're going to make community voting a component (or hell, even if it's only official judges) I suggest doing a Borda count.
For those unfamiliar, that's where every person votes for their top 3 (or other number) favorites in order of preference. Each placement is worth a number of points, to be totaled up among the votes to decide a winner.

There are only a limited number of people here, and if you enable people to vote for themselves, then they're obviously going to vote for themselves first and not for anyone else.

At least if you allow for the option to vote for more than one they will pick the others to go with their own and we'd get a better #.

-James

Glenn the Great
08-16-2013, 02:09 AM
There are only a limited number of people here, and if you enable people to vote for themselves, then they're obviously going to vote for themselves first and not for anyone else.

At least if you allow for the option to vote for more than one they will pick the others to go with their own and we'd get a better #.

-James

If everyone votes for their self as their top pick, those votes will cancel out.

Goriya
08-16-2013, 07:23 AM
Okay so, after looking at the rules:

You must use boss keys and boss doors.
Why is the even in the rules? I mean, the first 3 quests didn't have boss doors or boss keys, so shouldn't these things be optional?

Gleeok
08-16-2013, 07:30 AM
Like I said, there won't be a poll. Because everyone will not have played all the entries they're voting on, it's likely to get slightly complicated. The exact system used to tally the votes is still up in the air, and to be honest, might depend on how close they are. A Borda count sounds like a good place to start, say top 30-40% or so of quests, but still needs to factor in what quests that voter had not played or the total number that they did play, or, if they entered or not. Maybe a total rating or category as well? Perhaps "Best overall", "Most in-line with the NES", and maybe "Funnest" or "Most Addictive".


If everyone votes for their self as their top pick, those votes will cancel out.
Logic. It's not just for Vulcans anymore.

Gleeok
08-22-2013, 02:19 AM
Okay so, after looking at the rules:

Why is the even in the rules? I mean, the first 3 quests didn't have boss doors or boss keys, so shouldn't these things be optional?

Actually yes, yes it should be optional. Subsequently, any other requirement that didn't exist in the previous contests should probably be optional as well, except for the new enemies requirement, that one needs to go in. :P Even if you're a hardcore NES guy and want authentic NES enemies, you can create Item Bubble varieties just to qualify. Also going to simplify the "quest rules" section since it is a little confusing, and try to simplify some sections in general. We should be good to go this week sometime. :)


Also, first person to put in "ITS DANGEROUS TO GO ALONE, TAKE THIS", and then give Link the Magic Book automatically gets 42 million point-tokens redeemable for contest-points.

Gleeok
08-23-2013, 04:51 AM
And so it begins!


edit:

Hi there. I registered just so I could put in my two cents on all this. (Not that a new guy's opinion is worth anything, but hey.)

I only have a few issues with the rules as they are. First off, there's the "mandatory three new enemies" rule. I can certainly see the arguments for it, but I fear that most contest participants will read that and come up with a solution that can be summed up as "hurr durr i'll make a lynel with 3x as much hp as the blue ones and 2x its damage". Increasing health and damage seems to be a popular action in ZC quests. It is also, in my opinion, a very stupid action. The only thing that increased health accomplishes is that it makes fighting enemies more tedious. Raising damage simply means that a mistake incurs a stronger punishment. While there are cases where either of these actions can be appropriate, there are incredibly few cases where both are appropriate together.

I'm not necessarily saying to get rid of the rule, though. Actually, if I were a participant (I won't be, because Zquest map creation goes over my head), I would use this as the opportunity to make a new enemy species or two. An idea I had was for an enemy that had DR/Wand in the same way Pols Voice have DR/Arrow. Put Link's items through their paces.

Speaking of items, I would be careful about adding a lot of ZC's included items. This isn't even from a "tradition" standpoint; a lot of the other items are simply gamebreaking. Lemme list some of the ones I can think of right now that would destroy any semblance of balance.
Magic Bomb Bag: Everything explodes. Player wins.
Hookshots that do damage: Stunlocks and kills anything that isn't a Wizzrobe or boss, and stunlocks Wizzrobes.
Boomerangs that do damage: See above, except add Darknuts, and it doesn't stun either those or Wizzrobes, but the loss of versatility is made up for by block piercing and diagonal attack.
Life Ring: Essentially, unless a single room can kill Link at full health (which is probably bad balancing in itself), he can't die. Even for the players who aren't very patient, all they have to do is turn off FPS limiting for a few seconds and even the slowest Life Ring will regenerate all of Link's health.

...Huh. I could've sworn there were a lot more. Ah well, if I think of any others, I'll either edit this or make a new post. In any case, included items should be playtested carefully to make sure they don't trivialize the quest.

I'd like to conclude this with one thing that I should not really have to mention, but given the stories I've heard outside of the ZC community about the average quest, I'll mention it anyway. Play time is not an accurate measurement of fun.

(P.S. Pushing blocks into solid tiles is a dumb mechanic.)

Hi! I somehow missed of forgot about this post. Anyway,
I agree with a lot of those and I think you'll see the "finalized" rules reflect them better. The rough edges have been rounded out for sure.

In the past the Nth quests have been pretty good, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

And yes, I have a hard time playing "epic" quests as well. I don't think I've even finished one of them actually.

Cheers.

Nightmare
09-30-2013, 01:03 AM
An early prognosis Gleeok (my opinion, not official):

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. Glenn the Great
2. BigJoe
3. Gleeok
4. CJC
5. Nightmare
6. Chris Miller

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Glenn the Great
2. Chris Miller
3. CJC
4. Nightmare
5. BigJoe
6. Gleeok

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. CJC
2. Glenn the Great
3. Nightmare
4. BigJoe
5. Gleeok
6. Chris Miller

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. CJC
3. Chris Miller
4. BigJoe
5. Gleeok
6. Glenn the Great

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. BigJoe
2. Chris Miller
3. Nightmare
4. Gleeok
5. Glenn the Great
6. CJC

This is subject to change as time goes on, but this is from what I've tested so far.

-James

Gleeok
09-30-2013, 02:01 AM
Hey, 3 of those aren't even done or downloadable yet! :P

Nightmare
10-03-2013, 10:51 PM
Updated: An early prognosis Gleeok (my opinion, not official):

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Glenn the Great
3. Gleeok
4. CJC
5. Nightmare
6. Chris Miller

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Glenn the Great
2. Chris Miller
3. CJC
4. BigJoe
5. Nightmare
6. Gleeok

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. CJC
2. Glenn the Great
3. Nightmare
4. BigJoe
5. Gleeok
6. Chris Miller

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. CJC
3. Chris Miller
4. BigJoe
5. Gleeok
6. Glenn the Great

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. BigJoe
2. Chris Miller
3. Nightmare
4. Gleeok
5. Glenn the Great
6. CJC

CJC
10-03-2013, 11:33 PM
The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. CJC
2. Glenn the Great
3. Nightmare
4. BigJoe
5. Gleeok
6. Chris Miller


Woo! I took home the Smeargle!


I think you need a new category, though.

UnderHell Warden (Best Boss):
1. CJC (Ganon)
...


Well, you get the idea! (And no, you don't have to rate me #1, I was kidding!)

Nightmare
10-04-2013, 09:05 PM
Updated: Glenn out, doing a separate quest for him

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Gleeok
3. CJC
4. Nightmare
5. Chris Miller

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. CJC
3. BigJoe
4. Nightmare
5. Gleeok

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. CJC
2. Nightmare
3. BigJoe
4. Gleeok
5. Chris Miller

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. CJC
3. Chris Miller
4. BigJoe
5. Gleeok


The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. BigJoe
2. Chris Miller
3. Nightmare
4. Gleeok
5. CJC

Gleeok
10-04-2013, 09:41 PM
Since for some reason you thought to put me at the bottom of the list for the puzzle category, I'm going to personally make a puzzle specially designed for you: To keep you occupied for at least 5 hours or whenever you decide to ask me for help. ;)

I will call it "spite puzzle 1.0", and I won't tell you where it is.

Cheers.

mrz84
10-05-2013, 03:03 PM
I know that I said before (I think in another thread) that I'd do a 5th quest, but with work picking up with the holiday season (Halloween, Thanksgiving and Xmas) and family issues have taken up my off work time. I'll have to withdraw my 5th Quest entry. Unless I said that already in an another thread. Then you can just ignore this post.

icedawg
10-09-2013, 08:54 PM
I guess. Don't look for the boomerang early on in my quest though.

But why? I've found that annoying in the couple custom quests that I've played.

Anarchy_Balsac
10-09-2013, 08:56 PM
But why? I've found that annoying in the couple custom quests that I've played.

If it's a BAD custom quest it's annoying, but not if it's a GOOD one. At least, that's been MY experience.

Imzogelmo
10-25-2013, 04:18 AM
How can one judge how hard is too hard?

And let me step back and say this "taking enemies out of the equation," as enemies are often artificially pumped up as a crutch (which I do not intend to do).
At what point is a puzzle "too hard"?

What if, at some advanced point in a quest, you are in a room, where you must bomb to get out, but for some reason the player ran out of bombs? Is that bad design?
I mean, at some point, isn't is just *expected* that you have stuff on hand that is needed?

SUCCESSOR
10-25-2013, 08:47 AM
How can one judge how hard is too hard?

And let me step back and say this "taking enemies out of the equation," as enemies are often artificially pumped up as a crutch (which I do not intend to do).
At what point is a puzzle "too hard"?

What if, at some advanced point in a quest, you are in a room, where you must bomb to get out, but for some reason the player ran out of bombs? Is that bad design?
I mean, at some point, isn't is just *expected* that you have stuff on hand that is needed?

Testers

A puzzle is too hard or badly designed when it stalls the flow of gameplay.

Yes, that is bad design. Bombs run out so you always have to deal with the possibility that the player doesn't have any.

Gleeok
10-25-2013, 06:45 PM
8 blue wizzrobes in LV1 is probably "too hard" if you have to kill them all to get a key, unless it's not necessary or an optional room. It's a hard thing to gauge since good players will probably slice up the quest no problem, and crappy players will complain it's "too hard".

Bomb conservation sucks (it's no fun not being able to use items) so just give some out in nearby rooms, or if you can get stuck at all, make it a walk-through wall.

Imzogelmo
10-26-2013, 03:03 AM
Well, analyzing my paths, I've been careful to leave a way out, except in this one place where you have to bomb to get out (due to a one-way path going in). I have 2 nearby open rooms with enemies that frequently drop bombs, and then a room just before the one-way shutter that gives you a bomb prize. Even so, I can envision someone foolhardy enough to waste all those bombs, or just never pick them up, and unlucky enough to not get any from the enemies. I know I would hate that, so I'm trying to come up with some way to work around it (and I consider it too much hand-holding to give them the bombs in the very room where they are needed). The walk-through option may be doable, I'll just have to think on it.

And I hear ya on the Blue Wizzrobes. I had some in my Level 5, and they were killing me more that I liked, so I took a few out. :)

CJC
10-26-2013, 04:23 PM
Well, analyzing my paths, I've been careful to leave a way out, except in this one place where you have to bomb to get out (due to a one-way path going in).

There are ways to ensure a player never gets trapped without ruining your puzzle. Include an 'exit' walkthrough wall that leads to a previous room, or a passageway staircase that takes the player back to the dungeon entrance. Or... a push-block that'll re-open the shutter. The escapes don't have to be obvious, but they should be there to prevent the player from being forced to reset their game.

Imzogelmo
10-26-2013, 06:33 PM
Yes, just advancing will be non-obvious in some cases. The path I mention is a punishment-path, for someone who went the wrong way. At any rate, I've edited that part so that it's impossible to get permanently stuck (but it will be quite a bit harder if you did run out of bombs).

zcfan27330
10-29-2013, 03:25 PM
I plan on entering, but this will be my first ever created quest, so it might show big time and I'll be extremely pleased if I don't finish dead last in any of those catergories that Nightmare listed

I have so many little ideas that just translate bad into the big picture of a completed quest. I wish I got in on this sooner that I could tag team with someone

Nightmare
10-29-2013, 11:55 PM
Updated: Gleeok and SUCCESSOR out, DQ possibilies added

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. BigJoe
2. Chris Miller
3. Nightmare

In Progress:
1. DCSyxx 9still haven't finished Lv. 1 so I don't know where to place his difficulty yet, so far looks like large levels and hard bosses)

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. ZCFan
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

Nightmare
10-30-2013, 12:00 AM
Sorry for the double, but thought I'd re-iterate this so even the PureZC people can see this:

JUST BECAUSE YOUR QUEST IS DQ WORTHY DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T POSSIBLY GOOD OR EXCELLENT! I in particular LOVED CJC's quest, but sad to say it didn't follow the specs very well and time's becoming a serious issue in playing all of these. I know there's an audience to deal with, but some of these might make for awesome custom quests down the line. It's just, just as in a real game making, there's a design document that people have to follow when making a game, and this one was specifically a Zelda style quest.

I think there could be some serious custom quests made, hell, I'd like to see CJC's with a modified set and the Z1 Overworld, it'd be awesome. I'd play it again.

-James

Nightmare
10-31-2013, 01:53 PM
Updated:Through Shoelace's

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare
4. DCSyxx

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe
4. DCSyxx

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. DCSyxx
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. Nightmare

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. Shoelace
2. ZCFan
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

CJC
10-31-2013, 08:17 PM
Didn't follow the specs
...
Serious custom quests made, hell, I'd like to see CJC's with a modified set and the Z1 Overworld, it'd be awesome. I'd play it again.

-James
I'll have you know I did not break a single rule in the contest! My palettes, scripts, and tiles are all presented in the Z1 style. The only thing that's wonky is my dungeon floors.

But I follow you. I'm doing some spriting in passing towards a pseud0-cl4ssic tileset (flat colors, but more of them) that I'll debut with this quest as the seed. I actually feel most of the classic overworld and dungeon tiles are really good... the overall presentation suffers do to the undeatailed nature of the moving components (admittedly a shortcoming of the system that bore the original game).

Anyway, more people have to play and reject my quest before it can be disqualified! I've made a minor palette correction (for the save icon, it was inconsistent) and some small tweaks to make Level 2 less of a murderbox (there are now three entrances to both the bow and arrow item rooms, the last being blatantly obvious if you somehow get past the Pols without it) and I will supply an updated file when I get a chance.

Nightmare
10-31-2013, 08:24 PM
I'll have you know I did not break a single rule in the contest! My palettes, scripts, and tiles are all presented in the Z1 style. The only thing that's wonky is my dungeon floors.

But I follow you. I'm doing some spriting in passing towards a pseud0-cl4ssic tileset (flat colors, but more of them) that I'll debut with this quest as the seed. I actually feel most of the classic overworld and dungeon tiles are really good... the overall presentation suffers do to the undeatailed nature of the moving components (admittedly a shortcoming of the system that bore the original game).

Anyway, more people have to play and reject my quest before it can be disqualified! I've made a minor palette correction (for the save icon, it was inconsistent) and some small tweaks to make Level 2 less of a murderbox (there are now three entrances to both the bow and arrow item rooms, the last being blatantly obvious if you somehow get past the Pols without it) and I will supply an updated file when I get a chance.

Hold up just a second. I decided to have a meeting with Gleeok over certain things, he will announce them soon. Get in chat if you can.

-James

Shoelace
10-31-2013, 10:45 PM
I still think I didn't break any rules as I was very careful with all of the wordings. However, the one part of the rules of: "Rules can change based on Judges." This is where I feel the judges will say I found work arounds. But I still think I stuck to it. ;)

Either way, I am happy I made a good game and I hope people enjoy it. It is not Hero of Dreams, but with the limitations, I think it is awesome. :D

King Aquamentus
10-31-2013, 11:38 PM
Well it seems that Gleeok wants a quest that looks very much like it would appear in the original game if you beat it four times previously. I don't even understand for sure what it is he wants though. I generally try to keep out of all this and have little interest.

Gleeok
11-01-2013, 12:31 AM
The rules are simply a more lenient and up-to-date version of the 4th quest rules taking into account all the newer features of 2.5 (which [the 4th rules] were an up-to-date ruleset of the 3rd contest -- which was based on the 2nd quest etc.). The current rules and ZC features still allow for an unprecedented amount of creativity and customization over the 3rd quest rules, for example. I certainly don't have a predisposed idea of an archetypal 5th that quests must conform to or face the consequences. Don't assume that King Aquamentus. :P

Sorry, I've been either out-of-town or busy the last 3 weeks so I haven't been to very active during that time... Anyway, as it stands now there's a few issues with some entries (I haven't had time to go through all of them yet, sorry) which need to be fixed:
CJC: Overworld contains additional maze paths.
Shoelace: Dungeon screens were required to have 4 walls and not be freeform.
Pete&Wally: Custom Overworld issue (displaced and modified screens).

SUCCESSOR
11-01-2013, 12:33 AM
Edit: Ninjad

Shoelace
11-01-2013, 12:59 AM
Shoelace: Dungeon screens were required to have 4 walls and not be freeform.

I did follow that rule. ;)

Nightmare
11-01-2013, 01:16 AM
Gleeok, it wasn't a freeform thing, Shoelace had a lot of custom tiles (around the tune of a good 25-50%).

Sorry for not being clear enough.

-James

Gleeok
11-01-2013, 03:06 AM
I did follow that rule. ;)
http://api.ning.com/files/Xn6RV5Y50pbFK-4nfM7GdDho7NF3Lm7FDmT9YQonKh4_/orly.jpg

....
http://s21.postimg.org/874q1n75f/zelda002.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/874q1n75f/)

Phazite
11-01-2013, 03:47 AM
Well... technically if you can't swim you've basically got four walls. Whether or not it's freeform depends on how 'freeform' is interpreted, though I'd guess that most would call that freeform.

Shoelace
11-01-2013, 11:36 AM
I didn't think that would be freeform. Well that is an easy fix. If that is all in my game that is wrong I can fix that in a half hour. Just let me know.

About custom tiles. I really only made like a couple but kept it true to nes. That would be like less than 1% custom.

Again if it minor things like the water thing that is fixable, then that's no problem. But if my combo cycling is too much and such then I will have to eat it. But I can't see using layers as a problem because of the quest rules that were allowed. :)

zcfan27330
11-01-2013, 05:39 PM
Here's my pathetic entry

http://hornet.sandhills.edu/mcswainte/zeldaI/T5%20(2).qst

CJC
11-02-2013, 01:50 PM
Sorry, I've been either out-of-town or busy the last 3 weeks so I haven't been to very active during that time... Anyway, as it stands now there's a few issues with some entries (I haven't had time to go through all of them yet, sorry) which need to be fixed:
CJC: Overworld contains additional maze paths.


Overworld
In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place. You can change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool.

Specific Overworld Rules
* One DMap for the overworld. The following DMap flags must be enabled, with all others disabled: "Use Caves...",
"Allow 3-Stair Warp Rooms", "Allow Whistle Whirlwinds", "Special Rooms and Guys are in Caves Only".
* One 3-Stair Warp Ring per quest.
* One Whistle Warp Ring per quest.



Judging
* The first round of judging will be performed by judges, entrants, and the community, ideally eliminating all but the top three or four candidates. Picking a winner from the finalists will be handled much in the same way except with much more diligence. Anyone voting for the final quest should have played every entry in it's entirety. Public votes will be tallied and weighed as appropriately by any official judges and developers, and a winner will be decided. Finally, everyone can have a vote!
(Disclaimer: Some possible issues from this method may arise when a very strong 5th candidate does not make the first cut due to being underplayed or unpopular for any unknown or unforeseeable reason. Therefore, in order to maintain complete fairness for all entrants, no entry will be able to lose simply from lack of votes (lack of vote does not also imply non-vote), and judges reserve the right to un-eliminate any quest deemed worthy.)

Other misc. criteria for rejection
* The biggest changes here is obviously the fact that scripting is allowed. I cannot stress enough that you don't want to "over-script" or alter landmark LOZ mechanics in any way, in which case it will be rejected.
* If your quest is too easy it will be rejected.
* If your quest is too hard it will be rejected. (Although I have to note that the hardest entry to date was AlphaDawg's entry... and that won!)

* Note - Rejected quests are not disqualified. If your quest is rejected for one of possible various reasons (also reserved for judges discretion) that doesn't break any obvious rules stated above, you will have an opportunity to fix any problems and resubmit the quest, no questions asked.


I think it would be interesting if 5th quest had the freedom to change the classic 'lost woods' maze screens. Any screen with four exits at a choke-point on the Overworld should be fair game for a new maze, especially one that breaks the two classic "up, up" and "north, west, south, west" paths.

Two that come to mind are the screens just before the classic entrance to Level 2: 4D and 5D.

Screen 68 is another good choke-point that would work well for a maze. You can navigate around it, but only by braving the beach.



There are a few others spots where modification for the purpose of adding a maze should be allowed. For example, screen 3B (the upper corner of the four-screen desert) would make a good maze choke-point with just some slight layout modification (to fix walkability problems from wraparound).


Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.



Wouldn't it be fun to tack two mazes right next to each other? Maybe the whole desert is a maze, one you have to piece together from hints scattered in the dungeons.Someone did that before! It was not fun and I quit playing it. No! :P)

The rules regarding the overworld say nothing about maze restriction. I explicitly asked about changing the mazes when we first discussed the rules. Your only response was in rejection of two adjacent maze paths. Therefore, your claim that my placement of mazes on the overworld disqualifies my entry is a judge ruling, which means it requires approval of the majority of the judging panel to be grounds for disqualification. Since no judging panel will be established before the general vote is complete, my quest cannot be disqualified on these grounds at this time.

On another note, I think its pretty bogus that you would drop these additional rules as proclamations on competitors who submitted early (in my case, a MONTH before the deadline) with three days left in the contest. So I stand by my original statement: any additional rules you would levy at this point in the contest are judge rules and need to be approved by majority vote.

If people hate the mazes on my overworld, I'll be eliminated by the popular vote. Don't dump me from competing before the contest even starts.

Nightmare
11-02-2013, 02:09 PM
I just want to bring up one thing bugging me about this contest. I thought I'd elaborate on this more:

I have found almost all of the entires following more of a New Quest'ish type of power curve for enemies rather than levels sticking to mostly enemy groups that were presented on the NES. While this is very cool in a custom quest, for a Legend of Zelda quest this is kinda bad news and part of an NES limitation by memory and I think people have been abusing the heck out of this.

For everyone's information, I thought I'd post this to make it more clear (according to the 1st Quest groups):
Level 1, 2, 7: Blue and Red Goriya, Stalfos 1 and 2, Rope and Flashing Rope, Keese and Bat, Zol and Gel
Level 3, 5, 8: Blue and Red Darknut, Pols Voice, Gibdo, Keese, Zol and Gel
Level 4, 6, 9: Blue and Red Wizzrobe, Vire, Keese, Zol and Gel, Like-Like

While this isn't going to get anyone disqualified by any means, this is perturbing me a bit as a judge that people didn't seem to follow this at all. I know there is a line "Rules are made to be broken" (which I even posted in my quest), but there should be a little more respect given to this fact. The fact it's been thrown out of the window, and this is a real NES restriction, bothers me quite a lot.

Megamixing 9 isn't going to hurt much. The other levels, probably.

It also might be OK to switch colors, as long as the enemy groups are respected to some degree (as I did in my quest because my Level 9 was blue instead of white/red, so I put a Goriya level in the place of that).

Just thought I'd pass this on, since I'm probably going to have a pretty big say in judging from playing most of these.

-James

Imzogelmo
11-02-2013, 04:15 PM
I admit, I have thrown that restriction out for the most part as well, but I have tried to have vaguely "themed" enemy groups per level. I didn't do anything crazy like put Wizzrobes and Darknuts together. I chose enemies on two criteria: difficulty and terrain. Basically, involving the controlling of when certain enemies get introduced, and keeping certain groups as the primary go-to enemy of the level. And, if that weren't confusing enough, I generally have one room in a dungeon that completely throws that out the window. It's part of the whole "keep them on their toes" mentality. I have sometimes used the old NES strategy of downgrading enemies by leaving and returning to the advantage of the player (at the cost of backtracking and taking more time, you increase your survivability--seems a fair tradeoff. If I don't want you to do that, I make it impossible or impractical).

My understanding is that it has to "look" NES-like, but if ZQ can do it, and no rules prevent it, then it is legal. Of course, authenticity is part of the grading, but pushing the limits just a bit beyond 4th quest is also one of the goals, yes?

On a different note, isn't one of the "rules" that level 9 must be the white/red color scheme?

Nightmare
11-02-2013, 04:40 PM
I don't see why White/Red is one of the rules, as I've brought this up to Gleeok before. There is nothing on the NES cartridge restricting this for the hardest enemy group and is I think mostly there for tradition.

And to clarify: It's not a DQ, but enemy groups are a big part of the grading according to the people I've talked to or heard from so far.

I think it should be out. I know in my quest I used Lv. 1's color for a reason (if you play my quest you'd understand why, integral to the story)

-James

Nightmare
11-02-2013, 05:11 PM
Updated:Through Travster's

The Iron Man Award (Most Difficult):
1. BigJoe
2. Nightmare
3. Chris Miller
4. Travster
5. DCSyxx

The Riddler Award (most puzzles):
1. Chris Miller
2. BigJoe
3. Nightmare
4. Travster
5. DCSyxx

The Smeargle Award (Most Creative):
1. Nightmare
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. DCSyxx
5. Travster

The Tetris Award (Most Fun and Addictive Quest)
1. Nightmare
2. Chris Miller
3. BigJoe
4. Travster
5. DCSyxx

The NES award (Most Authentic):
1. DCSyxx
2. BigJoe
3. Chris Miller
4. Travster
5. Nightmare

DQ worthy (you've got work to do, didn't follow specs, quest may or may not be good, worst offenders first):
1. Pete and Wally
2. Shoelace
3. CJC

Cheers!

-James

Nightmare
11-02-2013, 05:28 PM
Updated judging scores (excluding my own for bias reasons): (updated after BigJoe's revamp)

1. BigJoe: 90.0%
2. Chris Miller: 80.0%
3. CJC (if he fixes his maze paths): 51.0%
4. DCSyxx: 49.67%
5. Travster: 46.67%

Imzogelmo
11-02-2013, 06:01 PM
I look forward to playing it, but I gotta put the finishing touches on mine first (time's almost out!) :)

zcfan27330
11-02-2013, 06:58 PM
I know I took the level enemy theme and just definstreated it

Gleeok
11-02-2013, 07:54 PM
CJC: I know what it says:

"In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside [from] that must be the same."

I don't know why it's such a big issue. Personally, I don't really care one way or another; it's just that the rules need to be changed if they are allowed. (They were off-limits in the previous contests as well)

Nightmare
11-02-2013, 09:35 PM
CJC: I know what it says:

"In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside [from] that must be the same."

I don't know why it's such a big issue. Personally, I don't really care one way or another; it's just that the rules need to be changed if they are allowed. (They were off-limits in the previous contests as well)

It's kinda why I have Lv. 9 blue: He's got maze stuff and messages relaying it, it is integral to his story. That's why he's objecting to it so much.

-James

SUCCESSOR
11-02-2013, 11:40 PM
CJC: I know what it says:

"In maintaining consistency with the first four quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside [from] that must be the same."

I don't know why it's such a big issue. Personally, I don't really care one way or another; it's just that the rules need to be changed if they are allowed. (They were off-limits in the previous contests as well)

I imagine many, like I did, interpret that as meaning almost identical "physically" and visually. For instance how much different is a maze path than a stair warp, fairy pond, etc. It's just a screen setting. It's not really a big issue either way.

Gleeok
11-03-2013, 03:59 AM
The CJC rule: "You can add maze paths only if you were confused by the wording of what was allowed in the rules and never bothered to ask. Since everyone else either asked, or opted to not add any extra maze paths, then this rule would not apply to those cases." :tongue2:

Nightmare
11-03-2013, 10:02 AM
The CJC rule: "You can add maze paths only if you were confused by the wording of what was allowed in the rules and never bothered to ask. Since everyone else either asked, or opted to not add any extra maze paths, then this rule would not apply to those cases." :tongue2:

Gleeok, just allow it. I think most people will mark him off for it who are strongly into NES style quests anyway.

-James

King Aquamentus
11-10-2013, 01:24 AM
I'd allow it myself. Despite everything, I don't know how many people would/could stay within the confines.

Gleeok
11-14-2013, 02:01 PM
There's such a massive amount of 5th quests why not have some of these after the first round of voting later on. What do guys think?

Possible categories:

* Viagra (aka Hardest Quest) Award.
* Quicky (aka "Are you done already? That's what she said. [Easiest Quest]) Award.
* Picasso (Most use of custom artwork or tiles) Award.
* Town Whore (Played by the most people) Award.
* Whitney Houston (aka Most cracked out) Award.
* The Riddler (Hardest puzzles) Award.
* NES (Most NES Authentic) Award.
* Oblivious (Least NES Authentic) Award.
* Purple Ganon (Hardest Bosses) Award.
* Cooler (Best quest that didn't place) Award.

Maybe some dungeon specific ones as well.

* Most creative
* Hardest
* Longest
* Shortest
etc.

Imzogelmo
11-14-2013, 02:12 PM
First the humor, then the serious:

What do guys think?
There may be some female 5th questers, you never know...



With so many 5th quest entries, I imagine that few, if any, will play each quest to completion. I am wondering how -est-ness can be determined in that case. But, even so, I've played a little of each quest already myself, and I can certainly tell from an early point which have high or low NES authenticity, so maybe the other categories will fall into place similarly.

Hey, how about this one:

Pun-y Human (Funniest text strings) Award.

peteandwally
11-14-2013, 11:27 PM
This isn't even my final form (Best new enemy) Award?

BtjCraft
11-15-2013, 07:18 PM
No complaints against the possible awards. It's nice to know that we will be making the quest entries feel more special. I personally suggest these categories:

Metamorphosis (Most changed quest during contest) Award
Forest Maze (Most maze-like/complex dungeon design) Award

Imzogelmo
11-20-2013, 01:58 AM
So how many rounds of voting will there be?
Or rather, what format of voting/judging shall there be? I've never been a contest participant before, but I've been a spectator, and I don't remember such a turnout.
Just curious about how it would proceed.

Chris Miller
11-20-2013, 07:23 AM
Let's post a topic and ask everybody to vote.

Gleeok
11-20-2013, 04:12 PM
Well, we have to give enough time for people to play the quests first. :P It's highly unlikely that anyone will play through all of them either, that would be pretty ridiculous. Hopefully there will be a decent sized group of people that will play at least 3 quests each. So far I've played 2 of them.

Imzogelmo
11-20-2013, 10:44 PM
I've played the first level of about 12 of them, but of course you can't judge based on just one level. :)