LET'S TALK ZELDA!!

[Nightime]

Given it's many incarnations over the past 25 years, the title "Legend of Zelda" has come to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Everybody has the game they love, the game they hate, and the game they "WTF?" at. It has evolved, pretty consistently, in a certain creative direction.

Looking back at the things I really enjoyed about the older titles, and the classic LoZ most of all; there's a lot of fun, key ingredients that have slowly eroded over time; and the more modern Zelda games; while fun games that certainly fit a particular vibe - are games of a totally different flavor and caliber than the first.

Dungeon Layouts. I'll start with the dungeons, which in the first, were pictographs. Maybe it's just me, but only a couple of Zelda titles have stuck with that; like Link's Awakening; most of the later titles have gone with more archetectual influences, or done away with "shaping" altogether, instead concentrating on making a room's size fit it's puzzle, instead of making a puzzle fit within a room.

Heart Containers vs. Pieces of Heart. First time or two they used Pieces of Heart, was pretty cool. But looking back, this destroyed two important things: their scarcity, and their method of acquizition. First LoZ, outside of dungeons, had only FIVE heart containers you could collect. And four of them were totally hidden. You really had to DIG to find them. After Pieces of Heart? They're all over the place, you can't scroll two screens and NOT see one somewhere. And they aren't really hidden at all - more often than not it's really just a matter of acquiring and using an item a certain way. Boh ring.

Optional weapons/upgrades. The first LoZ never forced you to grab the White or Magical Sword. Heck, it didn't even force you to grab the WOODEN one, either; though you probably weren't going to do very well without it (although minimalist runs have proven that to be possible). Later games give you no choice. The "Master Sword" is no longer some optional upgrade... it's a part of the STORY. You CAN'T live without it, now.

Gameplay vs. Narrative. Here's where a lot of the heart is. Every forthcoming Zelda game gets better at narrating a story. The improvement from LoZ to LttP is HUGE in this department; and all things considered, LttP (and/or the Oracle games) do the best job of balancing the two, IMO. But from N64 on, it appears most of the effort is put into the plot, and not so much in making it fun to play. I have nothing against a good strong plot; but face it: classic LoZ lacks much (enforced) plot depth, and yet remains arguably the most "adventure"-feeling of the bunch. You aren't given specific missions, fetch-quests, completion percentages or directions, other than "get the Triforce and WIN." How you do that, and in what order is totally up to you - it's about "YOUR adventure," and not "the game's story."

Risk and Reward. Every other Zelda game from Z2 to infinity always rewards you when you discover something, or when you find somebody in a dungeon. LoZ is not that nice. Discovering a new area could penalize your cash. Dungeons had rooms with Grumbles the Goriya, or the old mugger man "Leave your life or money." Was that narrative? Yes. Exploration came with risks; some of which you couldn't just fight your way out of, at that.

Sequencial Screen Puzzles. Lost Woods and Lost Hills. Far as I remember, the only other games that did this in the LoZ sense were the Oracle games. I could be wrong, and I know that a similar fun concept was applied to a section of 3D Dot Game Heroes. While a trope to the past, I do miss that kind of thing. Sometimes it's gratifying to discover that things aren't limited to "making sense," but can still be solved.
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So what do you think? What kinds of experiences "define" Zelda to you; the favorite elements of your favorite LoZ games that are totally underexplored in other titles? Is your definition of "a good Zelda game" different than mine?

[King Aquamentus]

multiple times I've tried to emulate that endless adventure in different medias. I once drew several different top-down landscapes on pieces of cut up paper shapes, Then randomly threw them onto a piece of black matte board and glued them down, to see what kind of an "overworld" it would create.

Kinda funny because the Metroid series also seems to have lost something like this. In the original game's canon, Planet Zebes was just a pirate fortress, with no personal connection to Samus. Thus, for the character, they were truly lost in an unfamiliar, alien world. The player alone still feels this in Super Metroid (in fact you might say the effect is increased), but we know Samus's story.

Then Prime rolls along with the scan visor. It seems to have an answer for everything, and by consequence, you aren't left with that wonder anymore, just science.

[Nightime]

I feel ya. Like Prime 3? That the new one? It's either that or Fusion... either way, it's a very awesome Ninja Gaiden game with guns. However, it's one of the worst Metroid games; because they really don't understand the gameplay premise as well as they do the narrative. The sad part, especially about LoZ, is that so many games have tried to become "that but bigger," and everything they add to the game ironically DETRACTS from it's values as game. In fact... there's a lot of modern sequels/remakes that do that; but fortunately not all of them.

[jerome]

I still haven't played too many of the other titles other than the original. I've played little of Majora's, OoT, Z2, demo of WW, and Lttp. Lttp and the original are still my favorite. I find it kind of annoying in some games where it's only "puzzle" is to send you to another part of the map on the opposite side just to prolong the game. It's alright every once in a while when they get the flow of that just right, but not when it's always the exact opposite part with every item acquired. "Hey, you found a key! You know that door that's about 12 minutes of game play away? Yup, that's where this key goes too!" You get there, and just get something to send you somewhere else. Maybe it's just that I like the simpler and to the point type of games. It's not that bad to get sent to the opposite side of the "world" when you can acquire other stuff along the way if you remember seeing it and/or explore around on the way. In MM, I just felt I got sent on so many different things at once, I couldn't remember half the crap I was supposed to do. Some outside of the game factors that didn't help the game were the fact I didn't play it that often though.

Sidenote: Glad to see a real person not peddling golf clubs or other stupid stuff as a new member!

[King Aquamentus]

Yeah... I actually had no ad threads or posts in my search results!! yaaAAAaaayy

I wouldn't mind seeing a good fusion of elements from past and present Zelda.

Combine the "legend" formula (three things, master sword, plot, more things, plot, final battle) with elements of the original Zelda, like freehand exploration, and getting to pick your dungeons (as long as you beat all of the first three, you can go to any one on the map. Then, after Master Sword, You have new places to go to.)