Where did everyone go?

[cbailey78]

It seems like everybody just quit posting here these days. What's going on? did the community just lose interest of this project or what is the deal here? Maybe they went on vacation? I hope the AGN members livens up soon. I bet the stable 2.5 will release when the pigs fly.

[Freedom]

You're beating a dead horse man.
read the change log, look at what has been and is being done.
there is no effort being made towards a stable release and there hasn't been for several years now.
People testing gave up because there was no reward for their hard work, and they were being lied to about a stable release being "any day now" only for it to drag on some 6 years.
People building quests quit because the betas would corrupt their quests and even if they did manage to release one places like pure wouldn't host it.
whole tile sets were being destroyed and corrupted.
Building a quality quest became far too time consuming to make it worth while since work had to be done over and over again because of corruptions and changes in the betas.
even the most optimistic had to finally see the light that it is history.
I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's just the way it is.
This horse is dead.

[Brasel]

If you're lucky, you'll see a tumbleweed or two. It's sad, really. So much potential. I came back for a bit of nostalgia and started work on a new quest. I had been sticking around AGN from time to time, but hadn't checked in on ZC in a long time. I was suprised to find out that its still in beta stages. The only thing I can guess is that the developers feel much the same way that Freedom says the bugtesters fealt. Theres no real reward for this project. These developers probably have lives and jobs and much more important things to deal with than this program.

*knock on wood* The 1296 beta has been fairly stable for me so far. I'm not jumping to the latest until I test it out a bit first, though. I'm not holding my breath for a final release any time soon, but I'll keep checking in and doing a bit of bug testing every so often to help reach the eventual goal.

I'd love to see this project bringing people in droves back to AGN like it was back in 2002 and 2003. Those were fun times.

[XMuppetSB]

Yeah, I agree with all of you guys. If they ever had the time to release a stable 2.5, they would have done it years ago! I don't mean to be blunt, but I on the other hand, think they should just cancel the stable 2.5 release and begin the rewrite right now, seeing as the latest 2.5 betas have been as unstable as hell... :shrug:
And as to any of you who import maps from other quests, do not download build 1313, because in that build, the first thing importing maps results in is corrupting your maps, then it will crash ZQuest after a few times, and yes, the bug has been confirmed.

Besides, I've been brainstorming a boatload of ideas for version after 2.5, some I would implement if I had any knowledge of the code.

[Plissken]

I agree 100% that a release is due, but that makes no sense to completely scrap it. If they were to drop it right now for the rewrite, they'd at least release what they have as the official version, no reason to let all that work go to waste.

[XMuppetSB]

I wasn't saying that it should be scrapped, I was just saying they should start the rewrite now even if it means admitting defeat and releasing an unstable 2.5.
But if they do release a stable 2.5 anytime soon, perhaps they should fix the Import Map bugs and make all the bug fixes Dark Nation keeps forgetting to commit.

[Freedom]

This is too funny
If they can't finish what they have, what makes you think they could start it from new and then finish it?
ROFLOL

[XMuppetSB]

Yeah, and think of all the features _L_ had planned, but had to put on hold indefinitely. The point is, the final 2.5 release will still be unfinished when it comes out.

[_L_]

I think most of the genuinely significant features (such as enemy attributes / defenses) have managed to creep inside over the years in slightly humbler forms. I'm not dissatisfied with what features we've got now.

Also, there is only one Import Map bug. I know what's causing it but, currently, not how to fix it. I trust another developer can provide illumination. Other than that 1313 has less crashes than the previous builds, courtesy of Saffith.

And since you're wondering: the release candidate will be created when Saffith or one of the other fellows decides that enough of the mysterious irregular crashes have been fixed, and when Joe123 grows bored with tinkering with the script engine. And when the verified crashes such as the aforementioned are fixed. And, after all that, when either Dark Nation or jman2050 decides to do it.

[Brasel]

I think most of the genuinely significant features (such as enemy attributes / defenses) have managed to creep inside over the years in slightly humbler forms. I'm not dissatisfied with what features we've got now.

Also, there is only one Import Map bug. I know what's causing it but, currently, not how to fix it. I trust another developer can provide illumination. Other than that 1313 has less crashes than the previous builds, courtesy of Saffith.

And since you're wondering: the release candidate will be created when Saffith or one of the other fellows decides that enough of the mysterious irregular crashes have been fixed, and when Joe123 grows bored with tinkering with the script engine. And when the verified crashes such as the aforementioned are fixed. And, after all that, when either Dark Nation or jman2050 decides to do it.

That doesn't sound like too much longer. I know you guys probably have a lot on your plates besides this side project, so it'll probably still be awhile. Keep chugging away and thanks for not completely bailing on the project. I know a lot of people are out for your heads over this, but they need to chill and realize that Zelda Classic isn't the meaning of life, and the developers have lives that revolve around more important things than this.

[Anthus]

That doesn't sound like too much longer. I know you guys probably have a lot on your plates besides this side project, so it'll probably still be awhile. Keep chugging away and thanks for not completely bailing on the project. I know a lot of people are out for your heads over this, but they need to chill and realize that Zelda Classic isn't the meaning of life, and the developers have lives that revolve around more important things than this.

Thank you. People need to be grateful with what we have. ZC is a free program.

[cbailey78]

Yeah, I'm very grateful on it too.

[Nicholas Steel]

Thank you. People need to be grateful with what we have. ZC is a free program.

You do know the last stable version is many, many years old right? (1.92 beta 184)

[Brasel]

Why don't you get on that release of a stable version, then, Franpa, or use 1.92. I don't understand why all of these people feel like the developers owe them something. It isn't their duty. They aren't getting paid. Its a hobby. How many hobbies have you dropped or spent less time on over the years? I mean, someone give me a good arguement as to why the developers really owe us anything. If you don't like the unstable versions, use the stable ones. You don't get your new features, but you get what you pay for, and you aren't paying anything.

[Anthus]

You do know the last stable version is many, many years old right? (1.92 beta 184)

I don't really get your point. :/

I'm not one of those anti-ZC beta haters, I'm just saying that people should be thankful. I still mess around in 2.10.2, and I still use the newer betas. I'm not working on anything serious, since I kind of have a lot going on right now. I use ZC for fun. The devs make it for fun. they work on it when they feel inclined, and have time. I'm also surprised they haven't up and left it due to all the negativity about it.

I think Anthony is pretty right on about the whole thing. Everyone is ready to complain.

[Shoelace]

Everyone lost hope. I am not an anti-ZC hater, I am very thankful for what they have done. I just lost hope.

[Nicholas Steel]

Why don't you get on that release of a stable version, then, Franpa, or use 1.92. I don't understand why all of these people feel like the developers owe them something. It isn't their duty. They aren't getting paid. Its a hobby. How many hobbies have you dropped or spent less time on over the years? I mean, someone give me a good arguement as to why the developers really owe us anything. If you don't like the unstable versions, use the stable ones. You don't get your new features, but you get what you pay for, and you aren't paying anything.
Doesn't work well under Windows 7. I'm not saying they owe us something, just saying that so far all there effort and time seems to have been wasted on learning what NOT to do, which I suppose will help them in future endeavors and help them to better organize them selves with future projects.

Anyways, I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, just saying that so far all they have to show for there work is buggy beta after buggy beta for a few years now.

[Freedom]

Anthony
after you invest a SEVERAL years of your time beta testing and wasting YOUR fucking time, THEN you can say something to those of us who have and feel betrayed after being promised time after time a stable release for all of our hard FUCKING FREE efforts.
Until then STFU, you haven't contributed shit so who are you to tell those of us who have how to feel or what to think.

[Brasel]

Anthony
after you invest a SEVERAL years of your time beta testing and wasting YOUR fucking time, THEN you can say something to those of us who have and feel betrayed after being promised time after time a stable release for all of our hard FUCKING FREE efforts.
Until then STFU, you haven't contributed shit so who are you to tell those of us who have how to feel or what to think.

Well, then I thank you for working towards the current state of the program and I'm sorry that you've wasted so much time. I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't have put so much time and effort into an online collaborative effort because I would be afraid it would come to the same end. I still stand by the fact that the developers are human, have lives outside of coding this project and don't have any real duty to their users. Whatever man, I guess all I can say is that I don't understand getting bent out of shape over trusting people I don't know in person...and free video games, no matter how much time you've invested in it. So I'll go ahead and STFU and continue enjoying the program when I have time to between working, going to school, doing reserve time, playing in a band, and living my life away from the computer and let sleeping dogs lie.

[Freedom]

Well, then I thank you for working towards the current state of the program and I'm sorry that you've wasted so much time. I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't have put so much time and effort into an online collaborative effort because I would be afraid it would come to the same end. I still stand by the fact that the developers are human, have lives outside of coding this project and don't have any real duty to their users. Whatever man, I guess all I can say is that I don't understand getting bent out of shape over trusting people I don't know in person...and free video games, no matter how much time you've invested in it. So I'll go ahead and STFU and continue enjoying the program when I have time to between working, going to school, doing reserve time, playing in a band, and living my life away from the computer and let sleeping dogs lie.

A mans word should be as good online as it is in the flesh, sadly some people don't believe that.
The fault doesn't lay with those who take someones word, but to those who don't keep their word, in whatever environment.
It's sad that you have lost site of that.

[Brasel]

A mans word should be as good online as it is in the flesh, sadly some people don't believe that.
The fault doesn't lay with those who take someones word, but to those who don't keep their word, in whatever environment.
It's sad that you have lost site of that.

You gotta remember I joined the army. They're really good at promising you one thing, then fucking you up the ass later. I trust no one anymore.

[Freedom]

I'm a viet nam era veteran
trusting someone to keep their word and holding them to their word are two different things.
I was there before they started using grease.

[Deviance]

Anthony
after you invest a SEVERAL years of your time beta testing and wasting YOUR fucking time, THEN you can say something to those of us who have and feel betrayed after being promised time after time a stable release for all of our hard FUCKING FREE efforts.
Until then STFU, you haven't contributed shit so who are you to tell those of us who have how to feel or what to think.

How about instead of you bitching and moaning about there is no stable build out and just join the dev team and finish it yourself. I'm lucky enough to barely have time on the internet. My job, my girlfriend, and my little business takes up most of my time in life. People move on to better things and apparently you are still beating on a dead horse.


Well, then I thank you for working towards the current state of the program and I'm sorry that you've wasted so much time. I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't have put so much time and effort into an online collaborative effort because I would be afraid it would come to the same end. I still stand by the fact that the developers are human, have lives outside of coding this project and don't have any real duty to their users. Whatever man, I guess all I can say is that I don't understand getting bent out of shape over trusting people I don't know in person...and free video games, no matter how much time you've invested in it. So I'll go ahead and STFU and continue enjoying the program when I have time to between working, going to school, doing reserve time, playing in a band, and living my life away from the computer and let sleeping dogs lie.

Amen to that.

[Nicholas Steel]

Well early on in development all that was happening was new features being added and debugged. With the introduction of scripting and the idea of changing everything to be dependent on it, there is no end in site. Why? Because there is always more script functionality to be added or existing functionality to be re-factored or updated. Changing everything to depend on scripting did nothing but introduce tons of obvious and obscure bugs and made it all temperamental and easy to create new bugs either obvious or obscure without intention while fixing another bug.

[Misopesaminos]

Why don't you guys launch a stable version without script an then keep working on the scripts?! or something like that :p

There are pretty cool quests without scripting :D

[Nathaniel]

Or better yet, focus just on the bug fixing that has nothing to do with scripting, make an official release, with a warning about scripting, and then finally focus on the scripting more. Is that at least doable in any sort of way, or it is just too entangled with everything else to even make that possible? And if it is possible, is the leadership there to make sure it gets done that way? More than half of ZC's existence at this point has been post-2.10 development. Is there any way to convince anybody that has at least a hair of realism that there will ever be another stable release of ZC, at least outside of scripting? Unless the right leadership is ever there on the development team, I can't fathom any of it happening, seeing where things are now. I understand this is amateur work, and people only do this on their spare time as a hobby, people have lives, yada yada yada, point taken, point understood, and that is fine and dandy. Nevertheless, I have to admit I can understand Freedom's frustrations, which have gone on for years, and I know he is far from the only one, despite the larger crowd of people posting in this thread against him or anybody who sympathizes with that. It will never be a pleasant thing to discuss, because it is what it is, but sometimes things need to be said, pretty much.

[Saffith]

Honestly, I think scripting might be the least entangled thing in the code. It's really pretty self-contained.
We're all ready to be finished with this. Once the crashes and other critical bugs are fixed, it's basically done.

[Misopesaminos]

Honestly, I think scripting might be the least entangled thing in the code. It's really pretty self-contained.
We're all ready to be finished with this. Once the crashes and other critical bugs are fixed, it's basically done.

Cool :D Thanks i think :p

[SpykStorm]

There's only 16 bugs in the Open Beta Bugs forum, excluding NES inconsistencies. That's the lowest I've ever seen it!

[cbailey78]

You guys are doing a well job on fixing the bugs and whatever you are doing. Sorry for the pressure or inconvenience it may caused. I just haven't seen much forum activity lately. That's all. Thanks for the shardstorm changlog system which is a very awesome choice made. It help me and everyone to see what bugs it has been fixed.

[Binx]

God, why is everyone bitching? I've been using 2.5 constantly, on account of my PC not liking 2.10 and I haven't had any problems at all. I think the devs are doing a hell of a good job, and I don't think everyone's given up, at all. It'll happen, we just need patience.

[Nicholas Steel]

11neas, have you been making quests in the 2.5 betas? Also earlier on there were some massive bugs but most have been fixed leaving mostly obscure bugs that only happen in very specific scenarios.

[Binx]

yeah, My only problem's been with the subscreen editor, it crashes ZQuest every time I try to use it, but considering no one else has had the same problem, and the fact that my PC only has 256 MB of RAM, I'm pretty sure it's just my laptop. I guess I'm using build 142, cuz the folder says "zc25b142", but other than the subscreen, and my lack of knowlege on how to make cutscenes, it handles like a dream, for me. I just posted a demo of my quest, but if there's a more recent build, I'd like a link, if at all possible.

[Brasel]

www.shardstorm.com

You can get the most recent betas there.

[Binx]

woot, thanks, I just discovered that 142 is a 1.92 build, not sure why mine says 2.5, but whatever.I'll be sure to report any bugs I find

[Saffith]

No, it's 2.50 Very old build, though.

[Freedom]

God, why is everyone bitching? I've been using 2.5 constantly, on account of my PC not liking 2.10 and I haven't had any problems at all. I think the devs are doing a hell of a good job, and I don't think everyone's given up, at all. It'll happen, we just need patience.

You would have to go back a few years to understand the reason for the bitching going on.
The developers now working on the program weren't developers then, with the exception of L and aren't the focus of the complaints, as they should well know.

[Binx]

I suppose, but still, I'm really liking the way the newest build is done. I think it was worth the wait, but maybe that's just because I don't really use scripting, so maybe that's my problem.

[XMuppetSB]

I'll state this now: Of all the current developers, the only three I know of that have been actively making changes to ZC according to the change log for the last three builds have been _L_, Saffith, and Gleeok. I haven't seen Joe123 making any changes to ZC or the change log over the last two months, and I've been trying to get in touch with him, but I still have NOT heard back from him, unfortunately. I did see pkmnfrk mention a few fixes in the change log for the last linux build, but I haven't seen him around much lately either. As for Dark Nation, no matter how many times he claims to have made a bug fix, he keeps forgetting to commit the fixes, and committing bug fixes is a big responsibility for all the current developers. Jman2050 has also seemingly been inactive as of late, and as for DarkDragon, I really miss seeing him working on ZC and I hope that he can get back to work on ZC some day, if he hasn't already left the development team. To get the point, when it's time for the post 2.5 rewrite to begin, the rewrite should call for several new developers. I have even stated a few times that I would like to learn all about the code, so that I too could possibly assist in development in the future.

[Nicholas Steel]

I too miss DarkDragon :/

[Imprisoned]

Now I understand the bitching going on. When I was last around, there were promises being made. A lot of them, especially a stable 2.5. Everyone was waiting for it, everyone was expecting it - jman even wanted to rush it.

But the community looks QUITE dead. Why did we have a bigger and better community back then? People we're still hanging on with the stable releases, and some were excited by the new features the betas brought. But now that we haven't had a stable version in such a long time, around what are we going to revolve now?

[cbailey78]

Now I understand the bitching going on. When I was last around, there were promises being made. A lot of them, especially a stable 2.5. Everyone was waiting for it, everyone was expecting it - jman even wanted to rush it.

But the community looks QUITE dead. Why did we have a bigger and better community back then? People we're still hanging on with the stable releases, and some were excited by the new features the betas brought. But now that we haven't had a stable version in such a long time, around what are we going to revolve now?

I would say, did jman lose interest in this project and got bored or what? I hope we can bring in some new developers and get this community back to life a little bit. I have been checking in the change log every now and then and it seems quite a bit slow but I can see they are busy with other things. No rush!

[Nicholas Steel]

I believe Jman was away for too long resulting in him having to re-learn a lot of the Zelda Classic code as a lot had changed while he was away. This may have left him feeling overwhelmed.

[Daputti]

No rush!

I can't say I agree... well, can't say I don't either.
One option is to rush it and get another 2.10 - but people made a lot of quests with it, and it was quite stable after all.
Another option is to do a perfect, bug-free, stable 2.5 calmly and carefully - but that would be very time consuming... and what ZC is now is the result of consumed time. Quiet. One leg in a grave.

It's a difficult situation and time for Zelda Classic... :(

E: Wtf? I'm Imprisoned. Seems like Chromium for Ubuntu seems to be filling in some other account credentials here... and I seem to have an alter here. Strange.

[*b*]

I see both arguments here. On the one hand, the developers are doing this for free, in their spare time, and gaining nothing from it aside from whatever satisfaction they get from us using their program, or even just working on it. But at the same time, they put the program out there for us to use, and promised this and that to us, making them responsible regardless of whether or not they get anything out of it.

Bottom line is, while we do have the right to bitch about them not following through in their promises, they also have the right to not do anything about it. Yeah, it sucks that we're seeing squat lately, and I do admit, I'm a bit angry over the direction ZC took. But I also know this started, and still is, a hobby, for both us and the developers, and neither of us get anything out of it.

If they want to do a rebuild (Which I strongly suggest. With notes!), I think it'd be a good move, and I'll follow along diligently and help wherever I can. If they want to keep going the way they are with what ZC currently is, grand. I might still use it. And if they want to let it die, fine. I'll find something else to do in my spare time, as they have done.

[Saffith]

There's a good chance I'll regret asking, but how are things doing lately?
I know we've got both ZC and ZQuest hanging on exit sometimes, and ZC apparently crashes if unfocused for too long. Besides those, is anyone still having serious problems in build 1337?
(Edit: Um, just wait for the next Windows build and pretend I asked about that...)

[Plissken]

Just the ZC crashing on startup in Win7 at least for me, (posted already in bug forums). I'm sure it's not a big problem, hopefully quick fix.

[Saffith]

Okay, now we're set, I hope. How's 1343? Keep in mind that existing saves may already be screwed up, which can cause crashes and other problems that wouldn't happen with new games.

[bigjoe]

I was checking out 4th quest, and it crashed when I entered a cave.

I cannot reproduce the crash at the same cave, so I dunno. :(

[Questions]

I was checking out 4th quest, and it crashed when I entered a cave.

I cannot reproduce the crash at the same cave, so I dunno. :(

I had this same issue trying to play Antiquity. Going into the same cave again failed to reproduce the crash.

Have yet to play with ZQuest.

[Saffith]

Hrm... What caves were these? Could be a problem with a specific room type, or with caves or warping in general...

[bigjoe]

For me it was the cave two screens to the west of the start in 4th.qst. And it crashed RIGHT as I touched the cave tile, not after the warp.. if thats any help.

[Questions]

The cave that crashed mine was a shop, one screen south and one screen east of the far northwest corner of the overworld.

IIRC when I tried to reproduce, I saw the shop had the red candle and the whistle in it. And indeed, the crash occured on contact with the tile, not during the warp.

[Saffith]

I might have found the problem. Looks like it's actually an issue with stopping the music. That's good - it'll be the cause some other crashes, too.

[SpykStorm]

Is there really only 11 bugs left, or are there just not enough people testing the program? If it's the first, then that means ZC is doing a lot better than a few months ago. I terms of stability, anyway.

[Saffith]

All right, another build. Those should be fixed now.


Is there really only 11 bugs left, or are there just not enough people testing the program?
There aren't really that few, but I do think we're in much better shape lately.

[Saffith]

No more replies in a few days... Should I take that to mean it's pretty stable now? Or is it just not getting much use?
XMuppetSB, you seemed to be getting the most crashes recently. What say you?

[bigjoe]

I will give it a playing with.

In fact, I think I'm going to do some rather intensive testing related to stuff that might not get checked much.

[XMuppetSB]

XMuppetSB, you seemed to be getting the most crashes recently. What say you?
Well, Saffith, all I do know is you've been doing evertyhing you can to fix these array issues and enhanced music related crashes. If it weren't for me, none of this ever would've been fixed.
And I see that there are different reasons for _L_ being absent, this time being that his hard drive crapped out on him. But he just released a new build for Mac OS X. (It's about time he did so, as the Mac OS X users had to wait for quite a while) Now if he could start getting to work on releasing windows builds again...