3DS

[Orion]

So, with Nintendo announcing a true "successor" to the DS (at least that's my assumption), what do we think?

I can't help but shake the feeling that they are rushing this out as a reaction to the 3D TV surge, and to be blunt, the 3D thing doesn't excite me very much. I'm more interested in what else the system can do, networking/horsepower/control-wise. And for the love of god, where is the DS virtual console?

[Anthus]

I'm getting closer and closer to being one of these bitter assholes who says things like "Yeah, Nintendo was awesome until 2008. What the fuck happened?"

Looks like an all you can gimmick buffet. No, we can't just get a system with better graphics, there has to be some God awful trade-off.



EDIT: Okay, okay, let me elaborate on my point here, so we are not confused about my cynicism. The DS. The first DS. It had a touch screen. Gimmicky? It'd be a lie to say no, but you know what, IMO, it was a good gimmick, and worked great in theory for a hand held gaming device. A touch screen allows developers who are willing to take the time to craft inventive, and fun controls (Same with motion controls, I can't stress it enough -- Hate the lazy developers, not the hardware they are abusing, in the wrong way). In the DS's early years, just about every other title was a poorly implemented gimmicky title with 3rd parties trying to cash in on the new in-wave. The Wii is the same thing now. I can't really explain the phenomenon in any other way that saying the DS essentially owns the hand held market right now, while the Wii is the weakest hardware wise of these HD mega-machines that devs rather make "real" games for. Anyway, this post is about the DS.

Well, the DS still offered enough of an "alternative" traditional option for devs, and players alike. You could still have games that used buttons (a rarity on the Nintendo front today). Now, here we are, in 2010, on what looks like the verge of the second wave of the 3D generation -- We have a chance here. But, if you have a higher end hand held system which uses 3D glasses to blend images, and fuck me if they use stereoscopic images (That's red and blue glasses), this is 2010 people! Okay, my point is, this is yet another gimmick forced on devs. Sure, you'll have the gimmicky titles come out, as you do with any innovative system, but there is another handicap: Now, devs will probably feel some pressure to make their games 3D. No, this is not bad in itself, in fact, the idea itself sounds pretty cool, I'll admit, but I think it will deter a lot of developers, and that is my point.

Original DS devs still had the option to use traditional designs, and often times those games were criticized because they were not "innovative" enough. See? Given that this is backward compatible, it will obviously still have that capability, but I don't want to see good games written off because they "played it safe" or were not "innovative" enough while these same people relentlessly bash the innovative titles they think they want.

I would like to hope the system does not become another Virtual Boy, and tank hard. Nintendo sounds awfully confident here -- Saying it'll upstage the DS, so maybe they got an Ace in the hole, or maybe they're counting on the rapture happening before launch. Either way, it'll take a lot to out sell a system 125 million units strong.

For the most part, I like innovation, and different, but I don't like it when it is forced. I don't like it when it hurts a game, system, or the collective thoughts of either/ or. If/ when I become a game dev, it'll be all about choice. Remember that.

[Cloral]

Some have suggested that the 3DS will use a 3D display. Others have suggested it will use the self-facing camera to do pseudo-3D, a la Hidden Picture (you move your face and the in-game perspective moves, giving a sense of depth but without true binocular depth perception). Since we really don't know anything much about it yet, I'm going to hold off judgment until more concrete details emerge.

[Pineconn]

No, we can't just get a system with better graphics, there has to be some God awful trade-off.

It will sport Gamecube graphics, according to several reports I read a few weeks ago. Portable Twilight Princess graphics? Yes.

I'm excited for this system. I didn't get the DS, so after hearing the 3DS (temp name) sports full backwards-compatibility, it's a sure buy for me.

[Anthus]

I'd also like to add that 3D glasses might not work so well with those of us who wear regular glasses.

^ Scratch that, this article says it won't need 3D glasses. Huh.


EDIT:
Found this on ign:
http://ds.ign.com/articles/107/1079233p1.html

Mentions rumors for the processor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Tegra

That processor is better than the one used in the GCN. I find it strange that Nintendo would pair with NVIDIA, since NVIDIA is a competitor with ATI, who provided goods for the Gamecube, and Wii.

[AtmaWeapon]

It's too early to have an opinion.

I could see the DS was going to be successful pretty early because I had some great ideas for games that utilized the dual screens. Some of these ideas were actually implemented in games I played.

For this, I don't have a clear picture of how the technology works.

Some people seem to believe that it's going to be "pop out at you" 3D. If Nintendo can pull this off on a single 2D screen with no glasses, the money they will make off of the 3DS will pale in comparison to what they'd make from patenting it and licensing it to TV manufacturers. I don't believe it's the case. Nintendo is not an expert in R&D into 3D displays. I've heard nothing about some kind of exciting goggle-less TV technology in the works. It doesn't add up.

I've seen some people say it's some kind of motion-sensing face-tracking parallax trick like the iPhone app in this video. (http://kotaku.com/5499823/nintendo-3ds-could-borrow-3d-trick-from-iphone) It looks neat, it's fairly convincing, and in a few other videos I've seen the parallax tricks are pretty mind-blowing. None of the 3D solutions for TVs or consoles are doing head tracking and revealing different angles. This makes more sense. Nintendo has a lot of R&D in motion sensing technology, and computer vision is a field where you can buy a lot of R&D. I've seen similar, inferior implementations on a DSi, so I can't help but think this is what we'll get.

Will it succeed? It depends on if games find a way to make cool use of the technology. I hear it'll have guts on the order of the GCN, which definitely makes a compelling proposition. That opens the door for games with very high graphical fidelity. OoT retextured like Perfect Dark? Sign me up. Ace Combat with tilt = roll? Yes sir. I haven't thought too much about what 3D could add to a video game.

So right now, my opinion is one of cautious optimism. A more powerful handheld with a higher definition screen will definitely be welcome, and this alone makes me interested. Whether the 3D adds value will be determined by whether developers can find neat things to do with it or if we just get Pokemon and WarioWare in 3D. (Also, don't forget that with the DSi Nintendo's becoming more aware of the value of online purchases; maybe this time Nintendo will have an internet strategy that isn't user-hostile.)

If it's playable at E3, I'm presuming there will be some games to demo. I'll probably have a more solid opinion then. Features are just bullet points on a box. Games determine if a console is good.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Good lord, stop making DS copies already and just release a new Zelda! >_<

[Anthus]

I've seen some people say it's some kind of motion-sensing face-tracking parallax trick like the iPhone app in this video. (http://kotaku.com/5499823/nintendo-3ds-could-borrow-3d-trick-from-iphone) It looks neat, it's fairly convincing, and in a few other videos I've seen the parallax tricks are pretty mind-blowing. None of the 3D solutions for TVs or consoles are doing head tracking and revealing different angles. This makes more sense. Nintendo has a lot of R&D in motion sensing technology, and computer vision is a field where you can buy a lot of R&D. I've seen similar, inferior implementations on a DSi, so I can't help but think this is what we'll get.

Wow, now that's pretty amazing. That would be awesome... and optional for developers to use.



If it's playable at E3, I'm presuming there will be some games to demo. I'll probably have a more solid opinion then. Features are just bullet points on a box. Games determine if a console is good.

That was kind of my original point. Lazy devs make shitty games that make a potentially good system look bad. However, I was also saying that Nintendo might be putting unfair pressure on people who want to make more cost effective, low-end "traditional" games on the handhold.


I revoke my initial "fuck Nintendo" position in lieu of one more like "Maybe this can be awesome, if they don't fuck it up."

[Saffith]

Regarding 3D, it might be this: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2359931,00.asp


The 3D demo showed images and video in 3D by using a standard 120-Hz LCD with a special overlay film from 3M that can direct images either towards your left or right eye. By flickering two images very quickly – running at 60 frames per second rather than the usual 30 – the display transmits a different picture to each eye, creating a simulated 3D image. Still images looked good to me, with some depth, though movies weren't quite as convincing.

If they get that working well, it could be great.

[Matteo]

Let the seizures begin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZzTpjh-NsQ&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZzTpjh-NsQ&feature=player_embedded

[Aliem]

While I don't know a lot about it, there are a few companies working on glasses-free 3D. Among them is Magnetic 3D (http://www.magnetic3d.com/). Basically, they use lenses and filters and all that fun stuff in their displays which block out certain things from the left eye or right eye, thus creating the illusion of depth. No clue, though, if this is what the 3DS is going for, if it'll be a handheld devoted to the kind of parallaxing 3D in a newish DSiWare game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWAg1s7xfz0) which I think is still only available in Japan, or if it's going to use something else.

In any case, it's certainly interesting to read about, even if I have no real interest in buying one.

[vegeta1215]

I'm curious about the 3DS and how it will work, but not really all that interested unless they deliver on the games. Despite being originally called a "separate pillar" from the Gameboy line, the DS has become what the Gameboy was - a system flooded with kids games. Oh, and tactical/strategy/dungeon crawling RPGs (seriously, how many can they possibly make?!?!) People talk about dusting of their Wii, but my Wii gets plenty activity. I had to dust off my DS. Before Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story and Zelda: Spirit Tracks this fall, I hadn't played my DS in a year or two. And right now, the only DS game I'm interested in coming out in the future is Okamiden, although I am considering picking up Pokemon Heart Gold for nostalgic reasons too.

[Orion]

It's true, up until a couple of years ago, the DS had a ton of amazing games, from Mario Kart and Mario Bros., to the FF Remakes, Chrono Trigger, etc. Lately, though, it's been pretty weak with software, with the only games I really care about now are Okamiden and Golden Sun. I didn't even borrow with Spirit Tracks, I never even played past the first few hours of Phantom Hourglass.

I still also have the old original gigantic DS. No crazy slim, camera ridden, or overgrown DSs for me.

But I wonder what kind of 3D tech they will use, mostly because there is some 3D that doesn't work for me. I have a bum right eye (it's vision is so poor that I rely almost solely on my left), and thus depending on the technique, the effect does absolutely nothing for me. I believe it's stereoscopic 3D that is broken for me, but I could be mistaken.

[vegeta1215]

I still also have the old original gigantic DS. No crazy slim, camera ridden, or overgrown DSs for me.

Me too! Mine is race car red! (from the Mario Kart DS bundle)

I will say though, I no longer use the original DS stylus. I use the feather pen stylus I got when Zelda: Phantom Hourglass came out. It is so comfortable! :)

[Din]

Did anybody notice that April Fool's day is coming up? I know I'm probably wrong, but this seems just a little bit suspicious.

[MottZilla]

You think Nintendo would pull a April fools prank? You do realize it's a japanese company and not a Western company. Their culture is alot different than ours.

[Cloral]

This announcement came out way too early to be April Fools.

[Din]

Guess you're right, kind of (er... completely) a stupid thing for me to say. The reason for it though, is that it all seems so sudden. Three dimensional technology without the use of 3D glasses? You'd think that television/movies/miscellaneous sources would be the first to release such technology (then again, I haven't been researching this, so it could've been done earlier). I mean, for the previous gimmicks, I've heard of touch-screens and of motion control, but this is MUCH more significant. Even if that was so, though, you'd think that Nintendo would release this on an actual television console. That's the reason for my skepticism. Then again, never doubt the power of Nintendo. If the 3DS is, in actuality, the DS2 that's been so famous recently, then, all I can say is... wow. I understand now that Nintendo probably wouldn't pull a prank, ever, but it seems so unreal.

[Anthus]

Even if that was so, though, you'd think that Nintendo would release this on an actual television console.

Well, this would be way too expensive to manufacture and sell, since they'd have to make an entire TV, and console, and 3D display built into one. Sure, the 3DS is just this, but it is much smaller. It would simply be too expensive, which is the main reason we don't get a lot of awesome technology in general till several years later.

I think it is completely believable -- I'll admit, I was kind of skeptical at first as well, but after seeing the iPhone app, the DSware game, and reading about the other thing someone posted, we can see that this, as you said is made from pre-existing stuff like motion controls, and the touch screen.

[Orion]

Even if the 3D does turn out to be a gimmick, it at least seems like it won't be a requirement, since it is supposed to be backward compatible with all current DS games.

[Nicholas Steel]

Some people seem to believe that it's going to be "pop out at you" 3D. If Nintendo can pull this off on a single 2D screen with no glasses, the money they will make off of the 3DS will pale in comparison to what they'd make from patenting it and licensing it to TV manufacturers. I don't believe it's the case. Nintendo is not an expert in R&D into 3D displays.
I'm pretty sure 3D screens which don't require Goggles have been around for a fairly long time now, it's only in the past 2 or 3 years that they've managed to get it working at 120hz (60hz per eye). The problem with 3D screens being mainstream is that you have to position yourself in an appropriate fashion to enjoy the 3d effects (lounge room layouts would need to change), The 3DS can be designed and optimized for looking straight at it as you would rarely look at the screens any other way. Nintendo may have a deal with a TV company to make the screens, get the technology out there in a well known product. Just look at the PS3 and it's Blu-ray, thanks to that very costly partnership Blu-ray pwnd HD-DVD.

[ctrl-alt-delete]

It will sport Gamecube graphics, according to several reports I read a few weeks ago. Portable Twilight Princess graphics? Yes.

I'm excited for this system. I didn't get the DS, so after hearing the 3DS (temp name) sports full backwards-compatibility, it's a sure buy for me.

I can almost guarantee you they will stick with that name because of how closely it resembles a strong competitor, the 3GS.

Also reserving judgment...there's been a lot of talk about the glasses less 3D lately. I think Nintendo is genius for jumping on it as fast as they have. If I had a guess, I'd say Parallax is there plan, based on what I've read about the different techs available.

[Cloral]

There is also the technology where the screen is ridged so that two images are projected in slightly different directions. That is probably the technology franpa is referring to. The reason they don't use this on a home-sized television is it only works in a very specific direction. If you're too far to one side or the other, you see only one image. A DS-sized console has the advantage of only allowing a single viewer, so they can assume that viewer is going to be head-on.

As for the name: Nintendo said a few years ago that they wanted short names for their products so that the product name would also be its acronym. The idea was to avoid the confusion around the Gamecube - was its acronym NGC or GCN? With the Wii and DS, there is no confusion. So I can't say for sure that the 3DS is the name they're going with, but it would be in keeping with their current naming strategy.

[Anthus]

Here's some other things to consider: Will this DS have both screens being touch sensitive? Can one screen be 2D and the other be 3D? Will only one screen use the 3D display? Will we see more games that use both screens together as one?

I've been thinking about this from a practical standpoint as well. The touch screen in itself is very useful, if implemented properly. I remember in Mario 64 DS, it was amazing for the camera manipulation, but clumsy implementation of the "touch analog" sticks may give it bad rep. I'm getting at how will a 3D display really improve upon the games other than aesthetically? The interface is still buttons, and a 2D touch screen. We can't reach in, and manipulate the screens (unless, they had some sort of depth sensing camera, allowing us to manipulate the things "inside").

So, what we have is something that kind of runs counter to Nintendo's philosophy of innovation before presentation. When people realize that it is basically deepening the display, but not adding anything other than depth to the game, won't they wonder why they need it in the first place? Sans the improved graphics ability; which I suppose is enough for some people anyway, which is probably why it's there, we are not really gaining anything.

Unless...

This is why I think there is something Nintendo is not telling us. We know that the tech exists to recognize 3D motions... So, maybe it would be implemented here? I can imagine something like what I said before. A 3D camera reads your movements within a given field. I dunno about the complexity of hand gestures, but I can see it recognizing things like "poking", "pinching", as well as other basic movements. It could also read faces, and whatnot. Will we be able to manipulate things in real time, on a 3D screen? That would be more innovation than "Oh, look at this, you can see into the game, sweet".

[AtmaWeapon]

I hadn't seen anything about these glasses-free 3D screens yet. Interesting. I've heard a lot about systems that do pop-in instead of pop-out 3D and that it's a bit more convincing though. No telling. I really hate to speculate on the 3D and how it will affect sales because it's something that I'm going to have to see to judge, and it's not like a YouTube video can do it justice. Nintendo should think long and hard about that before making 3D the selling point. (I do agree that the 3DS <-> 3GS similarity is probably something they'll try to exploit, iPhone's a crazy disruptive device and there's no telling where it will go despite the fact that playing games on it looks really horrible.) Again, I'm completely reserving judgment on the 3D until I see games. Games will either find a use for 3D that 2D could never have provided, or it will be just another gimmick. (My guess is Nintendo will remake all of its pokemon games AGAIN to utilize 3D.)

If the guts are gamecube quality I'm interested. Still, the smaller the screen gets the less stuff you can put on it without resorting to higher contrast and other tricks. I have a pretty good feeling that Twilight Princess on a DS-sized display would be nearly impossible to play. That game had a relatively deep combat system that required you to see subtle cues in enemy movement. And everything was brown. Wind Waker's a better bet for what would work on a powerful handheld. Still, I don't stand fully behind this because I haven't seen the DSi XL or whatever so I can't judge whether its screen would be adequate.

Like I said, too early to tell. Particularly for the 3D it seems foolish to judge without experiencing it firsthand.