Save Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes

[metroid888]

http://savecrimsonechoes.com/phpPETITION/index.php

For those of you that don't know, Crimson Echoes was a remake of our favorite game, Chrono Trigger. The game has been in development for years, and was planned to be released on May 31st, 2009. On May 8th, Square-Enix sent the development team at www.chronocompendium.com a Cease and Desist letter. This petition is an attempt to reverse this decision.

PLEASE EVERYONE SIGN THIS! Not only is this a battle for the Chrono fans, but this is a battle to show big companies that fans care about their actions!

[Link 101]

Dude...this really pisses me off that they had to cease and desist. This game looks so fun! I bet it's super awesome. I hope that this petition can help turn it over and they can continue to finish it and release it sometime this summer.

[Cloral]

Maybe it's just me, but using an online petition to try to convince a company not to defend its IP seems a little absurd.

[Link 101]

I agree, it is absurd...but you never know.

Those guys put a lot of effort into this game, so it's only natural for them to do anything that might possibly allow them to finish. Even if it is pretty damn absurd, ha ha.

[Beldaran]

They should just pay someone $20 to "steal" the game from them and upload it to piratebay. And then they can throw up their arms and be all "damn, we got robbed. Sorry Square."

[Mr. 207]

An online petition isn't going to work. Someone tried to remake Chrono Trigger on the PC a few years ago, and Square stopped them then. Nobody is gonna be able to convince them not to shut it down.

[Cloral]

I agree, it is absurd...but you never know.

Those guys put a lot of effort into this game, so it's only natural for them to do anything that might possibly allow them to finish. Even if it is pretty damn absurd, ha ha.

But you have to understand when starting a project like this that there is always the possibility of it being shut down. At this point their best bet would be to change the game enough that it is no longer a Chrono Trigger game. Change the graphics, locations, and story, and add some sort of new play mechanic.

[Revfan9]

It'd still be copyright infringement, as most of the game's assembly code would still be SE's imaginary property.

[rock_nog]

I agree with Bel here - they should just have someone upload it to The Pirate Bay and be done with it. I certainly understand the ramifications of the copyright infringement here, but I don't believe their work should simply be lost forever as punishment.

[Link 101]

I kind of see the ramifications, but...they aren't in any way making it for profit at all. It's kinda like they say on their site, it's no different than fan art, really. They are just making a new fan-based game that will IDEALLY draw no profit and just be used for fun.

[biggiy05]

I kind of see the ramifications, but...they aren't in any way making it for profit at all. It's kinda like they say on their site, it's no different than fan art, really. They are just making a new fan-based game that will IDEALLY draw no profit and just be used for fun.

Blizzard has been passing out cease and desist orders like it's candy. They've shut down a handful of apple iPhone apps that weren't for profit but free to the public. More or less the same scenario. SE wants to keep their game on a tight leash and don't want any variations of it.

[Revfan9]

Though in all honesty this is something I never understood: Why does SE (and many game companies) specifically go out of their way to alienate their fanbase?

[Cloral]

Well, it wasn't long ago that they re-released Chrono Trigger on the DS. If a free fan-made version was available, sales would probably be lower. They're protecting their ability to profit from their IP.

[Dechipher]

Also, it was their intellectual property before it was anyone else's. Regardless of how much money they've made, and how much money anyone else would make, it's still Square-Enix's. If you don't want to be served a cease and desist letter after much long effort and work, don't base your work off of someone else's.

Artistically, I agree with the guys, but realistically they've got almost no ground.

[Breaker]

Here's a youtube clip of the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbD_pwwJi9U

Here's a download of the demo: http://www.mininova.org/tor/2585169

[Fabiano the Spy]

Read the C&D:
http://www.crimsonechoes.com/letter.pdf

If it got "stolen" from them and leaked onto a site like The Pirate Bay, they'd be fucked. They were given orders to delete and destroy ANY of their work. If it got leaked out -even if it really was stolen, they'd be sued.

After all their hardwork, it really sucks, and I do feel sorry for them. However, I understand if this never hits the public hands. I wouldn't want them to get sued after pouring so much hard work and time into this project.

No offense, but petitions like this isn't going to matter to Square. Note, on their site, that they're currently awaiting more information from Square. Things *could* work out, they also couldn't. All you can really do is keep your fingers crossed :)

[Link 101]

Yeah, I think they are still talking with Square. Maybe they'll be able to work out some agreement or something. I really hope so, and will keep my fingers crossed, because this game just looks really sweet.

Did anyone else happen to watch the videos they have of the game?

[Fabiano the Spy]

Yeah, I think they are still talking with Square. Maybe they'll be able to work out some agreement or something. I really hope so, and will keep my fingers crossed, because this game just looks really sweet.

Did anyone else happen to watch the videos they have of the game?
I've never played a Chrono game, but I did watch through it, and for a fan based mod, this is very impressive. I'd be so pissed if I was a developer.

This makes me take a look at ZC from up above. I know Nintendo is well aware of ZC and doesn't care...but I just hope this doesn't ever change.

[Link 101]

You've never played Chrono Trigger!? You should get on that ASAP.

With Zelda Classic, every time I hear about something like this happening I just think about how it hasn't happened to ZC and how lucky we are that it hasn't. Hopefully it never does.

[Fabiano the Spy]

You're about the eighth person to tell me that. My problem is, I'm making a commercial RPG. I get too inspired. I want to work on something original before I go back and play ALL the classics :P

I'm sure this doesn't make sense, but somewhere in my head, it does. If I can break away from a lot of the other stuff, more of my ideas will be original, etc. :P

[Link 101]

Makes perfect sense to me man. Well, be sure to set aside some time when you're done to sit down and enjoy some Chrono Trigger. Then you'll see how cool this game could be if it were to get finished.

[DarkFlameWolf]

this is why you aren't supposed to release ANY information on your Chrono Trigger remake until the day of release and then everyone will go, "HOLY FUXORZ! WHERE THE BLAZES DID THIS AWESOME PIECE OF WORK COME FROM?!?!?!?"
And then they can't do anything since its already out there and on millions of people's hard drives. bwhahahahahahahhahahha
Better to ask for forgiveness than permission. Golden rule.

[AtmaWeapon]

Hi guys I signed up on your forum to spam it up with an advertisement for a cause I believe in.

List of games that have been saved by petitions:

[Fabiano the Spy]

Hi guys I signed up on your forum to spam it up with an advertisement for a cause I believe in.

List of games that have been saved by petitions:

He joined more than a month ago. We are called Armageddon Games ya know. He might just be a lurker and thought we might be interested. :rolleyes:
I don't know, whatever. :p
But I agree about the petition thing. I doubt it will really help, let alone an online one.

[Breaker]

There's a reason Atma isn't a moderator.

[Aliem]

Why is anyone shocked by this news? It's not the first time Square's shut down a CT fan game, and odds are, it won't be the last.

But a petition? Come on. A boycott's probably a better idea, and even that idea sucks.

[Fabiano the Spy]

Why is anyone shocked by this news? It's not the first time Square's shut down a CT fan game, and odds are, it won't be the last.

But a petition? Come on. A boycott's probably a better idea, and even that idea sucks.
Yeah, come to think of it, I remember reading about another CT game shut down awhile ago. I can't remember what it was, but it got so "powerful" in gameplay and graphics that it could have almost been a commercial game.

It just got too good, so Square took em' out. :\

[Aliem]

Chrono Resurrection, probably.

[Cloral]

Yeah I remember seeing a video of that. I think it was supposed to be a sequel. It looked really well done, like it could've been from Square themselves. Heck they might've been smart to simply buy that project.

[Shainagirl]

We should put up a website where we can mass e-mail Square with fan license requests. That's what the fans for Kings Quest 9 did to Vivendi, and it worked!

[Shazza Dani]

No we shouldn't. Bugger off, newbies.

(Seriously, WTF spam)

[DarkDragon]

I think the best course of action for you is to contact someone in charge at Square (eg, the lead programmer, NOT the legal department) and calmly and professionally make your case for why you should be allowed to finish your fan-made game. Some points that I would include are

* The game is free, and clearly labeled in such a way that it would not be confused for an official Square product.

* The game adds value to their brand by revitalizing interest in the existing games. Your game is sufficiently different from the originals (and NOT a ROM) that playing it would increase, not decrease, the desire to buy and play the originals.

* Precedent of other companies tolerating fans using their property in an unofficial game: Vivendi (The Silver Lining) and Black Isle Studios (Fan-made Fallout) come to mind.

Simultaneously, you should try to get the shutdown media attention, which is much more likely to sway Square than a "grass-roots" petition. Getting attention may be more or less difficult, depending on the profile of your game, but even if you can only get minor game sites and blogs to report on the shutdown, you can hope for a cascading effect where the story gets picked up by progressively more important media.

[DarkDragon]

What's the story behind "instruct[ing] others how to circumvent our copy protection" described in the third-to-last paragraph of the C&D letter? My hunch is that this was a significant aggravating factor.

[Breaker]

Only you would even read C&D letters.

[Skulkraken]

...I decided to try reading that C&D letter too, after DD mentioned that part. I never saw that site before the project was shut down, but it looks like Square got mad over the people working on it putting up instructions on how to hack the ROM on the website, in addition to the demo. Apparently telling people about ROM hacking is as bad to Square as hacking it yourself.

[Aegix Drakan]

This is why I don't like Square-Enix. They have next to no soul.

Like...I UNDERSTAND that they want to protect their IP. I think it makes perfect sense. But these guys were not out to make any money. They were out to bring the direct sequel that everyone wanted, but never got.

Also, my sympathy for SE is pretty low o this, since they've been keeping a bunch of "crono" related names copyrighted fro a long time now, but are not doing anything with it. If they were ACTUALLY MAKING a new crono game, then yeah, I could see them being a bit anal about this.

Ugh...Seriously, SE, start making good new solid IPs, or new games from old, awesome series. Enough with the neverending remakes!

(on a side note, I'm likely gonna get my hands on a torrenter, or something. I wanna give that dmeo a shot)

Also, like Wolfie said, they MIGHT have been able to squeeze out of it if they had kept it a total secret, and then BLASTED it over the internet when it was done (also, making sure thier names and stuff were kept secret, so no one could prove who worked on it, and thus, sue them)

[Fabiano the Spy]

Only you would even read C&D letters.
I find them kind of interesting, myself. Plus, it doesn't help that I've received a C&D before, so now, for some weird reason, it's "default" for me to read a C&D if one is in front of me. :\

[Mr. 207]

What's the story behind "instruct[ing] others how to circumvent our copy protection" described in the third-to-last paragraph of the C&D letter? My hunch is that this was a significant aggravating factor.

With the DS version of Chrono Trigger, SE put in numerous copy protections in the game to prevent people from using the rom version on their flash carts. These protections would cause the game to freeze when going through the games time warps.

[Aegix Drakan]

That and the rom file will mysteriously corrupt itself and become unreadable after about 3 weeks.

[ShadowTiger]

The former happened to me. The latter, .. no. I did find a hacked workaround copy though. Haven't tried it yet. Might not. Too many games to play at the moment, and I only use the DS while being transported from place to place.

[Joe123]

Couldn't they do what we have here?

Re-code Chrono Trigger themselves, rather than rom-hacking?
I know it'd take a significantly longer period of time, but it'd be better than just declaring the project dead.

[Mr. 207]

The cease and desist letter is saying they cant use the Chrono Trigger name, not the code to the game. Zelda Classic is no different...if Nintendo decides they dont want the project around anymore, they can send a cease and desist as well at any time. (of course since they havent done that yet, chances of it happening are probably pretty slim.)

[ShadowTiger]

And it's been in magazines for years now, so... (http://www.purezc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=40705&st=0)

[Shazza Dani]

If Nintendo didn't want ZC to use their copyrighted names it would only be a metter of renaming stuff in ZC so it has nothing to do with Zelda anymore… and people could still use it to make Zelda games. Those would be individual infractions that would at least keep the developers from getting in trouble.

[AtmaWeapon]

Yeah there's a big difference between making a game that uses licensed characters and making a game creation platform that makes games similar to a licensed game. I'm almost certain if ZC would drop "Zelda" from its name and remove the actual LoZ quest files then Nintendo would have no real grounds for a case, which is probably why they haven't tried. Why bring out the lawyer and rile up public opinions when the target is only minimally infringing?

SE had no choice but to send a C&D. These are licensed characters and they own the sole rights. If they allowed the game to be released, then technically the authors have copyright on this fan game, which weakens SE's rights to the CT license. Even if the authors of the game license it in such a way that they yield all copyrights, there are consequences for SE if they decide to release a CT sequel because consumer interest might be disrupted by the existence of a free game with a similar scenario.

I'm not saying I wouldn't love to see one of these projects be finished, but I don't think it makes sense to believe that SE will allow any of them.

[Shainagirl]

"No we shouldn't. Bugger off, newbies.

(Seriously, WTF spam)"

I wasn't "spamming". I was making a suggestion that has actually worked in the past. Look it up if you don't believe me.

And remember, you were once a "newbie" too. Everyone has to start somewhere.

[Beldaran]

And remember, you were once a "newbie" too. Everyone has to start somewhere.

I can speak for most of us here when I say that we were never newbies. We simply exploded into this forum with thousands of posts, bad attitudes, and maladjusted social tendencies.

[Shainagirl]

Lol! Quite the phenomenon.

[Shazza Dani]

Everyone was new once, but we didn't sign up here just to promote some petition for a Chrono Trigger fangame.

[DarkDragon]

If they allowed the game to be released, then technically the authors have copyright on this fan game, which weakens SE's rights to the CT license.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think this is correct. There are two separate issues here:

1. Ability to sue the Crimson Echoes developers. The federal statute of limitations for copyright infringement is 3 years from the date of the last infringing act. That means that if Crimson Echoes were allowed to be released, and the developers then completely dissociated themselves from it (ie, didn't continue to host the game on a website they run), SE would no longer be able to sue them after 3 years.

2. Ability to sue others who also infringe on the Chrono Trigger property. There is no such thing as "weakening" copyrights (contrast with trademarks, which can be lost if unprotected). If you create some intellectual property, you have complete control over if and how you want to license it. You can give person X permission to use the property, but that person X may *not* license the property to person Y unless X's license specifically allows it. If someone were to take Crimson Echoes and use, say, character sprites that are owned by SE, they would be liable for copyright infringement regardless of what action, if any, SE takes against Crimson Echoes.

[Shainagirl]

Everyone was new once, but we didn't sign up here just to promote some petition for a Chrono Trigger fangame.

Just because it's the first thing I posted about doesn't mean it's the only reason I'm here. Perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions. :)

[Shazza Dani]

Indeed. My judgement was more geared towards metroid888, but I assumed you were both here for the same reason. I could be wrong, however I don't see you posting anywhere outside of this thread… ô.ô

[AtmaWeapon]

When I mentioned copyright I wasn't speaking so much about the characters and assets related to CT as I was the plot and scenarios of the fan-made game. I was trying to illustrate why SE would be in a bad position whether or not the fan-made game had copyright to its plot and scenarios.

Though based on the views in 2, it is clear that fan-made games have no license to use assets and characters related to the CT license, so there's no "being evil" here as others are trying to characterize it.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm having a hard time justifying any tears for the developers of CT remakes/sequels. I'd love a sequel too but SE owns the IP, and they're the only people that can provide a sequel whether or not the fan-made game is commercial, proprietary, free as in beer, or free as in speech.

[Lilith]

---

[Nicholas Steel]

I certainly understand the ramifications of the copyright infringement here, but I don't believe their work should simply be lost forever as punishment.
SqaureEnix thought they had stopped all this homebrew fan nonsense when they stopped the prvious one. Since that obviously was not the case they have decided to wait till near the next projects end before issuing a C&D so as to "sting" the community for trying yet again to steal there IP.

I'd wager they did it on purpose in an attempt to stop anyone else from even bothering to do such again.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I'm going to start calling my period Crimson Echoes.

Post of the year, hands down.

[Sam Atoms]

I found about this pretty much when the news broke, because I visit romhacking.net somewhat regularly. While the release of this project would have been nice for ROM hacking in general, this situation doesn't really matter to me, because at the time I'd never actually played Chrono Trigger. In fact, the uproar gave Chrono Trigger enough publicity that I decided to try the original -- for about an hour.

So I went through the town, the millennium fair, the time warp, ended up getting swamped by a pack of Roly Riders, and found to my surprise that I'd lost everything. (Maybe I could have saved at the Inn, but hadn't figured out how at that point.) Now, it wasn't even quite an hour of gameplay, but still, it's a cold system compared to what you get in, say, any part of the Zelda series.

Well, I guess my point is, seeing as the Square-Enix RPG's tend to have "harsher" gameplay than Nintendo adventure titles, it might shed a little insight on the personality of the company as a whole, and help explain why Square-Enix dropped the hammer on this group, while Nintendo has left us (and Zelda ROM hackers) alone; though a notable exception might be in the case of Zelda II Enhanced, which allegedly got a similar letter from NOA a few years ago.

[Beldaran]

So I went through the town, the millennium fair, the time warp, ended up getting swamped by a pack of Roly Riders, and found to my surprise that I'd lost everything. (Maybe I could have saved at the Inn, but hadn't figured out how at that point.) Now, it wasn't even quite an hour of gameplay, but still, it's a cold system compared to what you get in, say, any part of the Zelda series.

Chrono Trigger is my favorite, and therefore the greatest, RPG ever.

[Link 101]

Chrono Trigger is my favorite, and therefore the greatest, RPG ever.

Amen to that, Bel, ha ha. In the midst of this whole situation, I have decided to download the PSX version of Chrono Trigger and am currently playing it on my PSP. I think I've played through CT at least 5 or 6 times in the past 6 years. Which is why this project would have been cool to play through for me. Oh well though, I guess I'll just have to imagine.

[King Aquamentus]

Important update to all you people concerned about Crimson Echoes:

A fan of the series who also has experience in law has taken some interest in the details of Square's letters. He is not defending the team, nor could he. He is only versed in literature claims and has offered to analyze the letter, see what Square means by what. In the meantime, some members believe that Squeenix sent the letter in error, confusing Crimson Echoes with a means to crack the antipiracy measures on Chrono Trigger DS.

It should be noted that Crimson Echoes was a hack of the 1995 Super Famicom title, not the 2008 rerelease. It also could not get around the 2008 game's anti piracy measures.

[gdorf]

Important update to all you people concerned about Crimson Echoes:

A fan of the series who also has experience in law has taken some interest in the details of Square's letters. He is not defending the team, nor could he. He is only versed in literature claims and has offered to analyze the letter, see what Square means by what. In the meantime, some members believe that Squeenix sent the letter in error, confusing Crimson Echoes with a means to crack the antipiracy measures on Chrono Trigger DS.

It should be noted that Crimson Echoes was a hack of the 1995 Super Famicom title, not the 2008 rerelease. It also could not get around the 2008 game's anti piracy measures.


I don't know why this is encouraging at all. The letter is brief and to-the-point -- there isn't much to be interpreted.

This is what happens when you have a forum full of Chrono Trigger fans fighting against the law. Lots of people are willing to offer "any help they can", but unfortunately most successful lawyers probably don't follow Chrono Trigger fan games. The "help" will probably take the form of pseudo (useless) legal advice and maybe a few emails to Square-Enix. That isn't enough when SE has such a solid legal case. :shrug:

From CT:CE's own readme file:

"ROM altering and modification is illegal, and the demo has been made without the consent of Square Enix... Should Square Enix perceive the project as a threat... Kajar Laboratories will immediately cease operation on the project and comply with Square Enix's orders."

It sucks, and I think its lame that SE is sabotaging their fan-base, but the developers have NO legal basis to fight back. The best they can hope to do is spread the word and try to embarrass SE into rescinding the letter.

[Radien ZC]

Well, I guess this just goes to show (as DFW pointed out): if you want to start a large fan game project and REALLY want it to be released, then work on it in private, don't release a demo, and don't post tantalizing website updates every time you update something (which tells the company the exact extent of your infringement). In other words, keep it quiet.

I know that's practically an impossible task to ask of fans, but it's what ya gotta do in order to finish your project. Although, I do wonder whether the company's retribution would be more heavy-handed if the "damage" had already been done by the time they caught wind of it...

Oh, and also: ROM-hacking in particular is especially impossible to defend, since it is directly reliant on the company's original code as well as their creative ideas. To tell the truth, I think the only reason ZC has never been targeted is because it poses no real threat to the profit of any of their current titles... so unless the pipe dream of ZC on a handheld really comes true, we're relatively safe. :P

[arc_wielder]

isent there a way we can get them to retract it and let them release it or they could allways go underground as someone said b4 me and release it on a site were enix's hands cant reach like Finland or Russia

[arc_wielder]

They should just pay someone $20 to "steal" the game from them and upload it to piratebay. And then they can throw up their arms and be all "damn, we got robbed. Sorry Square."

im with you on this i really wanna play it lol