Pirates vs. the U.S. Navy

[biggiy05]

TL;DR version:

Somali pirates took over as a U.S. cargo ship carrying relief food for people in Kenya. 20 members of the crew overpowered the pirates and took the ship back. The captain of the ship voluntarily left with the pirates to keep his crew safe.

Now the pirates are in the ocean on a speedboat with the captain. The U.S. navy has a warship nearby and more ships coming to the aid. How stupid can you be? You're sitting in a speedboat and you have a dozen or so ships from one of the most powerful naval forces in the world coming after you. Sheer brilliance.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090409/ap_on_re_af/piracy

[Anthus]

Lol. I wonder how long it'll be before they make a movie out of modern pirates. Actually, I saw this on the new last night. I thought the pirates took over the navel ship, and seized that captain though. At least that is how the news made it sound.

[Dechipher]

This shit is bananas.

[Beldaran]

Don't worry, Obama has a plan to shrink the navy and cut military spending more than its ever been cut. We'll be fine.

[rock_nog]

Don't worry, Obama has a plan to shrink the navy and cut military spending more than its ever been cut. We'll be fine.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the proposed 2010 defense budget actually higher than 2009's? I really don't see how an extra $20 billion is cutting military spending here.

[Archangel]

That's why we need to legalize laser warfare. High Intensity beams rock.

[Beldaran]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the proposed 2010 defense budget actually higher than 2009's? I really don't see how an extra $20 billion is cutting military spending here.

He is increasing spending in areas related to counter-insurgency such as unmanned aerial vehicles and such, but cancelling some huge programs like F22 Raptor (leading to big job losses in multiple states), the F35, huge cuts in missile defense (perfect timing with NKorea launching a missile), decomissioning some battleships, and halting new helicopters, next-generation armored vehicles for the Army and high-tech Navy vessels.

Also, when the government prints $1 trillion dollars defacto and pumps it into the economy willy nilly, a $20 billion increase in spending ends up being a spending CUT, because of the value of money.

[Archangel]

God damn the obama administration. Those fuckers are gonna get us all nuked. The russians and north korea are so going to take advantage of us.

[rock_nog]

So it would seem to me that he is rearranging the budget to meet current military needs. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[Archangel]

How is weakening or defense a good thing? The best offense is a good defense.

[biggiy05]

Lol. I wonder how long it'll be before they make a movie out of modern pirates. Actually, I saw this on the new last night. I thought the pirates took over the navel ship, and seized that captain though. At least that is how the news made it sound.

They took over the ship then hours later the crew overpowered the pirates. In the mix of all this, the captain voluntarily left with the pirates in exchange for his crews safety. Ballsy move but I can respect him for thinking of his crew first.

[rock_nog]

How is weakening or defense a good thing? The best offense is a good defense.
Actually it's the other way around, the best defense is a good offense. But seriously, shouldn't we concentrate our spending on things we actually need right now?

[biggiy05]

Actually it's the other way around, the best defense is a good offense. But seriously, shouldn't we concentrate our spending on things we actually need right now?

Did you forget what country we live in? Since when did we spend money on things we NEED?

[Beldaran]

So it would seem to me that he is rearranging the budget to meet current military needs. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

How is missile defense and a strong navy not a need given rampant piracy, threats from Russia, and North Korean and Iranian dictatorships jockeying for the bomb?

Liberals are just fundamentally anti-american at heart and they want to peel away our defenses, applaud Castro, and slowly socialize our economy. I say build a huge, towering, horrifyingly powerful military, and tell evil countries to suck our big red white and blue dick.

Seriously, if I were the President, I would just carpet nuke the fuck out of North Korea right now. Fuck that shit hole of a country and its evil dictatorship. They are evil. Their population is already the walking dead because of the tyrants who rule them. Just solve the whole problem at once.

[rock_nog]

We have real wars that we are fighting right now. Those should get higher priority over hypotheticals. I'm not saying drop our guard entirely, but we do need to reprioritize to meet the military needs that we have right now. If things are going to come to fighting in any of the countries you mentioned, that would be years down the line. Certainly neither North Korea nor Iran currently has the capability to pose a serious threat to us at the moment.

[Cloral]

You know rock_nog, I don't think you should take what Beldaran is saying seriously. I'm sure he's being sarcastic.

[Aegix Drakan]

Wow. I thought this shit didn't happen anymore.

Anyways, if there is a battleship floating near them, and they hav eno juice left in the motor, basically the only bargain they can hope to make is "we'll hand over the hostage! Just don't kill us!". I mean, they're totally boned.

Not a smart move on their part.


Ballsy move but I can respect him for thinking of his crew first.

Agreed. I salute him for that too.

[Brasel]

Certainly neither North Korea nor Iran currently has the capability to pose a serious threat to us at the moment.

I would rather walk down the streets of Baghdad naked, with an American flag in my hand, than set foot in either North Korea or Iran with an entire unit. Those fuckers are all crazy, and sooner or later, they're going to do something that will require us to retaliate. And if we don't retaliate, we'll get looked at unfavorably by the rest of the world for not doing anything...not that we would be looked at favorably for doing it either.

[rock_nog]

I would rather walk down the streets of Baghdad naked, with an American flag in my hand, than set foot in either North Korea or Iran with an entire unit. Those fuckers are all crazy, and sooner or later, they're going to do something that will require us to retaliate. And if we don't retaliate, we'll get looked at unfavorably by the rest of the world for not doing anything...not that we would be looked at favorably for doing it either.
I'm not opposed to retaliation here, it's just, there needs to be something to retaliate against. From what I can tell, it seems that mainly they're just stirring up anti-American sentiment to distract from their own incompetence. Actually going to war and having us turn their countries into parking lots would kind of defeat the purpose.

[Prrkitty]

I would rather walk down the streets of Baghdad naked, with an American flag in my hand, than set foot in either North Korea or Iran with an entire unit. Those fuckers are all crazy, and sooner or later, they're going to do something that will require us to retaliate. And if we don't retaliate, we'll get looked at unfavorably by the rest of the world for not doing anything...not that we would be looked at favorably for doing it either.

I agree with Anthony... naked and the whole bit.

I bet it's North Korea that does something first. Their leaders don't care about their own people... much less anyone else.

And when they finally do... do something... I'm afraid it's going to be bigger then anyone ever thought of or even tried to anticipate. There's many rumors that they have WMD's and even nukes (amongst other massive damage causing weapons). And they ain't afraid to use 'em... EVEN if their own people are caught in the cross-fire.

[Aegix Drakan]

Honestly, I don't care if Iran gets erm...

"Taken care of". The shit that goes on in there... When the penalty for BEING raped is death (or lashes, IF you're lucky), then I think we have a problem.

[The_Amaster]

Iran has been a thorn in our side for decades now, and they still haven't done anything. Now, I am not saying they wont, but I am saying that I think we're past the point where we should jump every time they say "boo!"

[Anthus]

Seriously, if I were the President, I would just carpet nuke the fuck out of North Korea right now. Fuck that shit hole of a country and its evil dictatorship. They are evil. Their population is already the walking dead because of the tyrants who rule them. Just solve the whole problem at once.

No seriously, I totally agree. I think we need to wipe out that whole fucking middle east area too. All in all, these places are gonna fuck us up, with there imaginary friends and big bombs.

Call it naive, and say I have a lack of understanding, but fuck it, it is how I feel. Wipe. Them. Out.

[rock_nog]

You know, Iran has some good people, I think, but their government is totally FUBAR. I still hold out hope that one day, the youth movement will rise up and put those assholes in their place. God I hate political conflicts. Do you really think your average Joe Blow Persian on the street really cares all that much about the Iran/US conflict? No, they just wanna live their lives, but government assholes go around brainwashing them to believe that America is the root of all their problems. Ever since the revolution, they've been blaming us for every single goddamn problem in their country, so of course they hate us. I will admit, it doesn't help that we openly supported the Shah, and we supported Iraq in the Iraq-Iran War, but dammit, they might as well blame allergies and ED on us.

North Korea is even more astounding - not only is religion not the factor that it is in Iran, but Kim Jong Il's complete incompetence and I'd argue utter insanity has resulted in untold suffering in his own people. How the hell does he do it? Jesus, he's gotta be running the anti-US propaganda machine 24/7 to keep the people from rising up and hanging his ass with piano wire.

[Nicholas Steel]

the best defense is a good offense.
Isn't that because everything worth defending is a part of the offensive?

[rock_nog]

Isn't that because everything worth defending is a part of the offensive?
Consider the first Death Star. It would've been impossible for the Rebels to devise some kind of shield to repel the Death Star's primary attack, but by attacking first, they were able to destroy the Death Star and thus neatly avoid the whole problem.

[biggiy05]

Iran has been a thorn in our side for decades now, and they still haven't done anything. Now, I am not saying they wont, but I am saying that I think we're past the point where we should jump every time they say "boo!"

The problem is that the threat is becoming more serious. The day we don't jump when they say "boo" is the day we have a nuke pointing at us. We are the "top dog" when it comes to waging war. Everyone looks at us to come bail them out or make the first move when someone gets bullied.


Consider the first Death Star. It would've been impossible for the Rebels to devise some kind of shield to repel the Death Star's primary attack, but by attacking first, they were able to destroy the Death Star and thus neatly avoid the whole problem.

Nice analogy.

[Nicholas Steel]

Yes, nice analogy lawl.

[AlphaDawg]

Be afraid, linguine-spined libs, be very afraid... if the US doesn't strike Iran, Israel has made it no secret that they will. Because unlike a majority of us Americans (proof is in our President) Israel puts their self-preservation above all else.

I only agree with Bill O'Reilly about 85% of the time, but he was 100% right last night... how in the hell can this massive ship get overtaken by FOUR pirates in dinghies? By sailing totally unarmed and without any form of security detail, that's how. As the Angry Video Game Nerd might say, what were they thinking?

[AtmaWeapon]

Nice analogy.Actually, bad analogy. It seems nice because it agrees with your point. But the problem is you, like many people, are looking at the problem from the eyes of someone who either isn't aware of or willfully ignores the complexity of the situation.

In Star Wars, there was good and there was evil: the Rebel Alliance and the Empire. Everyone else was a bystander not interested in the fight. If the Empire had succeeded in destroying the Yavin base, we were led to believe that there was no one else that would threaten the Empire. The rebels were a small, underpowered group against a larger force with infinite money, infinite manpower, superior weaponry, and superior tactics due to magical future-seeing Sith. Darth Vader is the only counterpoint to the statement that there was no one in the Star Wars universe that acted on some motivation other than "Is this good?" or "Is this evil?" and would choose an action counter to their alignment. The novels don't count, they were intended to explore these issues and even the novels for the films don't go into the depth that the others do.

In the real world, good is on positive infinity and evil is on negative infinity, and every entity in the world is somewhere on the line between the two. An entity doesn't even have a concrete place on the line, as to one person a great man could be evil incarnate (consider how we felt about Great Britain during the American Revolution vs. how the average British citizen felt about them; who was right?) If Iran is the Galactic Empire and blows up Yavin 4 (America) with their Death Star (nukes), there are a large number of other, larger entities (Russia, China, all of Europe) that would suddenly feel threatened; it's not like Iran plays nice with many people.

It's not even like we're the idealist and underpowered rebellion against the powerful Empire of Iran; they've got one Death Star, a Corellian Cruiser, and a squadron of X-Wings. We've got 100 Death Stars, two fleets of Super Star Destroyers, and hundreds of squadrons of TIE fighters, TIE defenders, and TIE bombers. On top of that, in a nukes:Death Star destructive power comparison we have the equivalent of four planets worth of land while they occupy a satellite base orbiting a barren moon; the entirety of their arsenal would only damage a percentage of our resources before they die off from attrition. If you asked the average citizen of the world how accurate this analogy is, they'd tell you that you have it backwards: the US is the Galactic Empire with limitless power, forcing its will upon the masses while Iran is the Rebel Alliance, a ragtag group of perky kids that are out to prevent the Empire from oppressing one more person.

On top of that, you have the rest of the world, which is like a Galactic Council that didn't exist in Star Wars. Russia's got 50 death stars and a few fleets of fighters. The U.K. can field a dozen death stars and a handful of capital ships. Spain's got death stars. China's got millions of clone troopers, several planets of their own, (possibly) death stars, capital ships and cruisers. India's similar to China. North Korea's got a death star. All of these people have interests and worries of their own; if either Iran or the US starts slinging nukes at each other, all of these countries are going to feel threatened and respond in unpredictable, possibly irrational ways.

Think about it, seriously. If Iran shoots first, the rest of the world feels like they're an unstable threat and there'd probably be a group of countries that would obliterate them in self-defense. If we shoot first, to the world we're the evil Empire who is saying, "You do not have a culture or lifestyle compatible with our goals, we have decided to destroy you and your culture and take your land for ours." This would destabilize the political climate even more and probably lead to someone like Russia or China declaring open hostility on us; after all, how do they know they aren't next? Why do you think Iran wants us to shoot first so bad? They want us to be destroyed, and don't care if they have to die in the process.

The Empire made the attack on Yavin not because they liked blowing up planets but because the Rebel Alliance was a threat and victory would have silenced rebellion for an entire era. The Rebels were a thorn in the Empire's side and the Empire was tired of jumping every time an X-Wing said "boo!" The Rebel Alliance fought back because they had no way to move in time to avoid destruction; they were backed into a corner and it was a suicide battle because they had no choice. Looking at it from this direction, do you think it would be wise for America, with near-infinite resources, to attack Iran, a small country with no allies and nowhere to run?

There's not a good answer to the question, "What do we do about Iran?" Any choice we make leads to bad circumstances. We can't pick the "best" choice because all of the circumstances depend on how the world interprets our actions. We want to be safe and we don't want anyone to die; the goals are mutually exclusive. If we leave them be, eventually they may attack us; we'll destroy them but we'll take damage. If we attack them without provocation, we'll destroy them but risk making enemies of more powerful people; what if Russia or China with all of their resources became the new Iran? I'm going to die either way, and I'd rather be remembered as the guy who shot back while bleeding than for starting a fight I couldn't finish.

Simplifying the problem to "it's them or us" is how we got here in the first place. Don't be so ignorant as to ignore complexity again and make it worse.

[Aegix Drakan]

Wow. That was incredibly nerdy, but also pretty accurate.

Good on you there, Atma.

[Dechipher]

nalndlnla



TL;DR



Just kidding. I've never said that before because I think it's shitty.

Well said.

[biggiy05]

Be afraid, linguine-spined libs, be very afraid... if the US doesn't strike Iran, Israel has made it no secret that they will. Because unlike a majority of us Americans (proof is in our President) Israel puts their self-preservation above all else.

Israel has more balls than we do when it comes to dealing the first blow. Their military force, especially the air force is on par with our own. They've taken our own weapons and made them better. Just look at what they were going to do to Hamas. Israel will gladly stick a missile up Iran's ass without thinking twice. I'm glad we have them on our side because I would hate to piss them off.

[Pryme8]

Isn't that because everything worth defending is a part of the offensive?

FAIL!

no its because if you are always attacking and make your enemy always be on their heels, because there is no way for the opposition to set themselves and make a counter attack...


if I'm always punching you in the face every time you try to hit me.. odds are you are not ever gonna hit me.

[Prrkitty]

No matter how you look at the situation... I hope we do NOT fire the first shot. I hope we wait to see what others do/act/react... and go from there. A lot of people want to "poke" us to see how we will act/react. And I hope our government is *adult* enough not to over act/react to those "pokes".

[Pryme8]

forget that they did more then poke... I saw we set up a group of snipers and shoot all the pirate in one go...

show the world you don't play paddy cake when your trying to box.

[Beldaran]

No matter how you look at the situation... I hope we do NOT fire the first shot. I hope we wait to see what others do/act/react... and go from there. A lot of people want to "poke" us to see how we will act/react. And I hope our government is *adult* enough not to over act/react to those "pokes".

Maybe if everyone who "poked" us got a thousand tons of incendiary bombs dropped on them, people would stop poking us.

People will only poke you if they think there are no consequences.

[rock_nog]

Maybe if everyone who "poked" us got a thousand tons of incendiary bombs dropped on them, people would stop poking us.

People will only poke you if they think there are no consequences.
Yeah, that'll go over well - bomb the fuck out of everyone who calls us bad names. But hey, I guess a constant state of unprovoked war will be a huge boon to the military industrial complex.

On a more serious note, does nobody remember the Iraq debacle? They poked us, we retaliated by basically leveling the country, and it turns out they weren't actually a threat in the first place and we got stuck with the cleaning bill.

I would very much like more evidence of open hostility beyond harsh language before our next FUBAR invasion.

[Beldaran]

Yeah, that'll go over well - bomb the fuck out of everyone who calls us bad names. But hey, I guess a constant state of unprovoked war will be a huge boon to the military industrial complex.

I don't mean people who "call us bad names". I mean people who constantly rant about how they want to annihilate us and starve their population in an effort to build nuclear weapons and shoot test missiles at our territory.

If you think all North Korea does is "call us bad names", you have your head plunged deeply into the sands of pacifist ignorance.

[biggiy05]

No matter how you look at the situation... I hope we do NOT fire the first shot. I hope we wait to see what others do/act/react... and go from there. A lot of people want to "poke" us to see how we will act/react. And I hope our government is *adult* enough not to over act/react to those "pokes".

The pirates are "poking" everybody. Germany is about to get involved in this because the pirates have taken some of their people before or they are still currently holding those people. I'll have to look up the info. I heard the last bit as I was walking out the door.

These pirates aren't going after just us. They are going after everyone they can.

[Beldaran]

Besides, in real life, if some ass hole was poking me, I'd break his arm off and shove it up his ass.

[biggiy05]

Besides, in real life, if some ass hole was poking me, I'd break his arm off and shove it up his ass.

I laughed when I read this because I was reminded of this post. (http://armageddongames.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1219233&postcount=94)

[biggiy05]

Screw you double posting haters.


No matter how you look at the situation... I hope we do NOT fire the first shot. I hope we wait to see what others do/act/react... and go from there. A lot of people want to "poke" us to see how we will act/react. And I hope our government is *adult* enough not to over act/react to those "pokes".

We need to get our shit together and go after these pirates. Why? This is why. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090411/ap_on_re_af/piracy) They took ANOTHER boat. Now let's see. We have how big of a naval force and they have what? A tugboat they stole reinforcements that will probably get trigger happy if threatened. It's time to make a movie.

[rock_nog]

Guys, I think Prrkitty was referring to the situation with Iran/North Korea, not the pirates.

[biggiy05]

Guys, I think Prrkitty was referring to the situation with Iran/North Korea, not the pirates.

Now she's talking about the pirates too.:D

Like I said in an earlier post. If we don't fire the first shot, Israel will fire 20.

[rock_nog]

And? I say let Israel handle it - they've got more than enough firepower to take care of themselves. I'd rather they didn't, but come on, we're not the world's babysitter.

[AtmaWeapon]

Then let Israel fire the first shot like a bunch of greedy bastards. One of these days they're going to dig themselves a hole so deep that we aren't going to try and dig them out of it, and starting a large offensive against Iran is a good way to do so.

Those who are relying on God's Biblical promise to never let the Jewish nation be wiped out are forgetting about the several centuries the Jewish people spent in slavery with Israel occupied by their enemies. God never said "Israel will never lose a war"; he only guaranteed that at the least he'd allow enough Jews to survive that they wouldn't be extinct and they'd be able to rebuild on the rubble of their homeland. It's not a carte blanche for Israel to declare war on anyone they want, it's a warning against their enemies to think twice about an unprovoked attack.

[Prrkitty]

I was talking about Iran/North Korea... but fair enough we can also talk about the pirates too. It's a shame we can't just blow the assholes out of the water and let their li'l floating boat be their casket <giggle>

[granite]

The Somali elders offered a deal where they would release the captain in exchange for the pirates to escape unharmed. But the US wanted the pirates arrested, so the negotiations have broken down.

How stupid that is. The captain could be free right now.

[Beldaran]

I would tell the Somali Elders that for every 1 hour that passes in which the captain is not released, US planes will kill 10,000 Somali civilians.

[granite]

I say let them go in exchange for the safe return of the captain. Then we move in, after the release of the Cap'n, and fuck them up.

[biggiy05]

I say let them go in exchange for the safe return of the captain. Then we move in, after the release of the Cap'n, and fuck them up.

Then we have egg on our face. It's better to just be aggressive while they are still holding the captain than to chase them down after the captain is freed. Everyone will think we're doing it just for revenge.

[AtmaWeapon]

Read this article (http://harpers.org/archive/2009/04/hbc-90004751) about it and fully agree. Spending a dime of our money on chasing speedboats with battleships is the most ridiculous waste of tax dollars since the bailout plan. It's a speedboat. The fastest battleship can't move at a fraction of the speed, and the guns on the ship fire shells larger than the target. It won't work. There's effectively infinity pirates and what, 3 battleships?

However, a speedboat is not a long-range boat. It can venture maybe a hundred miles or so from shore, but it's not going to be carrying enough fuel and supplies to support a crew for more than a day or so. These guys are living in the harbor and getting fuel, food, and ammo from somewhere. If we get some guys in the ports looking for where the supplies come from and disrupt that, we'll do a lot more damage. It probably won't take but two or three fuel tanks mysteriously catching on fire and ruining some guy's entire business before the pirates start go get ugly looks when they come asking for supplies.

How many men does it take to man a fleet of ships vs. how many operatives it would take to disrupt the pirates' infrastructure? That's America's real problem; we've got such a wide array of technology and weaponry at our disposal that we forget about tactics that don't involve bombing someone until the worms choke on the dust. Some problems can be solved with violence, other problems can be solved with more violence, and still others take finesse. I think this is a Metal Gear type problem, not an Endor-type problem.

[rock_nog]

Once again Atma, you've demonstrated brilliance in your analysis of foreign conflict. Hot damn, you're on fire. I mean, I realized that sending battleships after them would probably be ineffective (how on Earth do you find a tiny speedboat in the middle of the ocean anyway?) but gee, I hadn't considered shutting down their base of operations.

[Aegix Drakan]

It's a shame we can't just blow the assholes out of the water and let their li'l floating boat be their casket <giggle>

Wow. Never thought I'd YOU of all people put in those terms.

Who are you and what have you done with Prrkitty? :(


@ atma (lol): Umm...problem. They're PIRATES. They don't have their base of operations in plain sight, or easily identifiable. If they were, they'd be long massacred by either the authorities they haven't bought off yet, or by rival pirate groups. Now, if we KNEW where they were holed up, yes, some MGS style infiltrate-and-then-screw-them-over-from-the-inside action would be the best course of action.

[Beldaran]

the authorities

Which don't really exist in Somalia.

[Daarkseid]

Read this article (http://harpers.org/archive/2009/04/hbc-90004751) about it and fully agree. Spending a dime of our money on chasing speedboats with battleships is the most ridiculous waste of tax dollars since the bailout plan. It's a speedboat. The fastest battleship can't move at a fraction of the speed, and the guns on the ship fire shells larger than the target. It won't work. There's effectively infinity pirates and what, 3 battleships?


The last of America's Iowa class battleships were decommissioned in the 90s because they're effectively obsolete from a cost to benefit standpoint. The only useful thing about them is its massive gun battery, which can deliver some serious payload.

Except that they're essentially massive artillery pieces that were state of the art sixty years ago, and what damage can be done by them is done by smaller surface ships firing guided weaponry. And then you have the sheer fire power of a super carrier and its fighter-bomber craft.

Not that any of that is important, one naval destroyer doing anything beyond simple patrol duty would be too much.


I would tell the Somali Elders that for every 1 hour that passes in which the captain is not released, US planes will kill 10,000 Somali civilians.

What are we, terrorists?

[Prrkitty]

Hon... I am not a pacifist... but I do tend to be more peaceful then warlike. BUT... there are times that I can get a bit ornery (spelling?), angry and you could probably say downright pissy.

This would be one of them there times :) You can ask Dechy, Gerudo, Dark Knight ... and a few others how I can be...


Wow. Never thought I'd YOU of all people put in those terms.

Who are you and what have you done with Prrkitty? :(


@ atma (lol): Umm...problem. They're PIRATES. They don't have their base of operations in plain sight, or easily identifiable. If they were, they'd be long massacred by either the authorities they haven't bought off yet, or by rival pirate groups. Now, if we KNEW where they were holed up, yes, some MGS style infiltrate-and-then-screw-them-over-from-the-inside action would be the best course of action.

[Beldaran]

What are we, terrorists?

We should be. Those monkeys don't understand anything except violence and power. We should hurt them, bleed them, be ruthless and inhumane, and terrify the shit out of them to the point where Allah sending them to hell sounds like a welcome relief.

We should capture them and cut their testicles off on network television. We should kill their families. We should turn their mosques into dust and teach them carefully and fully that if they choose to use violence as a currency, we have more "cash" than they do.

We must fight fire with fire and end their existence with brutal, unquestionable force.

That is what we would be doing if I was president. I do not tolerate men who initiate aggression. Such men will be met with ten times the aggression on my part.

[rock_nog]

Beldaran, I am seriously confused. Why is it okay for us to use violence against them, but not for them to use violence against us? By your line of reasoning, they are absolutely justified in what they do. Is this just a "might makes right" thing? Because I don't understand why it's evil for them to use violence, but not for us.

[Aegix Drakan]

We should be.

Umm......



Those infidels don't understand anything except violence and power. We should hurt them, bleed them, be ruthless and inhumane, and terrify the shit out of them to the point where their god sending them to hell sounds like a welcome relief.

We should capture them and cut their testicles off on network television. We should kill their families. We should turn their banks into dust and teach them carefully and fully that if they choose to use violence as a currency, we have more "cash" than they do.

We must fight fire with fire and end their existence with brutal, unquestionable force.

Sound familiar?

Look, Beldaran. I KNOW that the only way to "negotiate" with those assholes is to use bullets. But that does NOT mean we should just outright nuke an entire country just because there happens to be a bunch of terrorists there. Do civilian casualties mean anything to you?

If you respond with such agression, not only is the UN gonna sanction your ass to all hell, every other country in the world is gonna freak and go on high alert, and point their nukes at the sky, waiting for you to so much as blink in their direction before launching all their nukes, and making Fallout 3 a reality. Now, as fun as using bottlecaps for currency SOUNDS...

Stooping to their level means their way of thinking has won out in the end. Terrorists will end up in charge of the world, except that instead of brandishing AKs and chanting tribal songs, they will be wearing suits and sitting behind desks, casually discussing who else gets the nuke. The US is supposed to be a "protector" (or at least, thats how most Americans see it). The US's job is NOT to act as judge, jury, and executioner for any country that doesn't fit their profile of a good, kind country. If that happens, then it's only amatter of time before someone says "Hey, those British guys were asses to us several hundred years back...let's pay em back!" or "Those Canadian guys are hogging all the maple syrup, and...uhh...NUKE EM ANYWAAAY!!"

Hell, if we follow YOUR way of thinking, maybe we should just nuke the US right now because they might destroy everyone else! Just like...oh my...the freakin terrorists. Grow up Bel. If you're still at the age where you think punching everyone in the face is the solution, then I await the day the cops pick you up for assault. Blowing the shit out of everyone who isn't as "pure" as you see fit makes you no better than a "Kira", a mass murderer deluded into thinking that they're saving the world.




@ Prr: ;) I know you're not a pacifist. But I was expecting more of a "I wish we could just open fire on that little ship and straighten them out" instead of "make it their casket". XD

*note to self: Prr can get ornery. Avoid stepping on her toes. XD*

[AtmaWeapon]

I'd agree with those terms... if we were in an honest-to-goodness war, the kind that Congress and the rest of the world backs. As it is, we're not even in open hostilities.

The stance that we should slaughter innocents in order to smoke out the pirates is not only absurd, it shows serious poor character and (once again) a complete lack of ability to comprehend the complexity of the issue.

First, the pirates aren't just thieves that decided they needed to hijack ships. Somalia is a failed state and the average citizen would stab their entire family with a pencil just to be as rich as the homeless people that beg the corners of Austin. They can't turn to traditional robbery because none of the stores or banks have any money either! These ships are low-hanging fruit to them, and they're hijacking them to survive. Slaughtering people won't deter the pirates because there will still be starving people with boats. Getting the UN to do something about Somalia is a smarter course of action: when the people aren't starving there will be less pirates and the ones that exist will respond to deterrent action.

Next, it will make things worse. If your view was that we should shoot the pirates on sight I'd be sympathetic. Instead, you believe we should kill the people on shore who are starving but won't become pirates. Good idea! When we're through killing them all that will be left is pirates and citizens with a grudge. I'm sure the Taliban or Al Qaeda would be glad to offer them an olive branch to help them rebuild and get us back. We are not a country of savage imperialists that consider everyone else expendable sub-humans. Those are the countries that are our enemies (unless they can sell us something.)

Finally, it'd make the rest of the world even more angry at us. I find it odd that we're so worried that other countries will attack us but we believe we should do precisely what they accuse us of doing. Plenty of terrorist groups hole up in residential regions so they can accuse us of killing the innocent when we make a strike. Why should we cut out the middleman and attack the innocent directly? "They should have moved if they knew they were harboring terrorists" is not applicable in this or any scenario. In this scenario, you're suggesting that people who don't even know a pirate and don't have enough money for a cup of rice should pack up and immigrate to another country. To which land of opportunity should they flee? Kenya? Ethiopia?

Seriously you've got problems.

[MottZilla]

Apparently the Navy Seals killed all but one of the pirates and rescued the captain. A good outcome.

The problem is that these things like Atma said, are not real war. Conventional wars we were pretty good at and now we have very advanced traditional weapons. But issues like these are like law and order type issues. It's hard to solve these problems with bombs.

[Beldaran]

Wait, we killed people? I guess we're terrorists now.

[Dechipher]

Wait, we killed people? I guess we're terrorists now.

Yup. That's exactly how it works. No more complex than that.

[rock_nog]

Beldaran's just bitter because they didn't use his proposed solution of slaughtering thousands of innocent people simply for the sake of one friggin' hostage. That said I'm glad they were able to rescue him.

[Beldaran]

Yup. That's exactly how it works. No more complex than that.

Hey, it's your guys' logic I'm using. So if it seems stupid, well I guess the shoe fits.

[rock_nog]

How the hell do you come to that conclusion? With you it seems there are only two options - murder thousands and thousands of people, or don't kill anyone at all. Why only those two?

[granite]

I bet you could trade a six-pack of beer for a rocket launcher in Somalia.

[Daarkseid]

Hey, it's your guys' logic I'm using. So if it seems stupid, well I guess the shoe fits.

Yeah, killing 10000 innocent bystanders to get the release of 1 American is just as good as killing 3 three less innocent kidnappers for the release of that same American.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[Lilith]

---

[MasterSwordUltima]

Why didn't anyone make a joke about parlay yet?

[biggiy05]

Why didn't anyone make a joke about parlay yet?

I was waiting on you. I made this thread in hopes of you making a parlay joke and you let me down! I can't count on you for anything these days...jeez.

[Prrkitty]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/12/somalia.pirates.ordeal/index.html

Thankfully the captain is safe and sound... thanks to 3 US snipers. Who, at the same time, shot 3 of the pirates... so the snipers could rescue the captain.

The 4th pirate was on one of our ships trying to work things out. He is now a captive of our side. Wonder what we'll do to and/or with him?

May those 3 pirates rot in hell!

[Fabiano the Spy]

In the mix of all this, the captain voluntarily left with the pirates in exchange for his crews safety. Ballsy move but I can respect him for thinking of his crew first.

Yeah, when this first happened I saw this on the news. When I heard about how he left, I wanted to give a salute to the man, that's bravery, that's honor. It made me proud of him and all, but shit..

But as said above, he's safe now, so that's all good.

[Dechipher]

Hey, it's your guys' logic I'm using. So if it seems stupid, well I guess the shoe fits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

[AtmaWeapon]

Yeah, taking out a handful of people guilty of the crime you have sent the military to deal with is so similar to killing hundreds of people who have done no crime. :rolleyes:

I don't believe having the military kill the pirates is wrong. I believe it won't solve the problem. We're sparing a few dozen soldiers to deal with a problem the size of a country that's caused by sociopolitical issues. How's that war on drugs going? What about the war on terror? Both are more similar to this situation.

So far, the pirates either haven't killed anyone or they have killed so few that the news is not sensationalizing it. What happens when they know that if they try to bring back a hostage alive, we kill them? Something tells me that soon we won't be hearing stories about happy-go-lucky crews that overpowered the pirates and took their ships back. Instead, we'll hear horror stories as the companies have to spend weeks cleaning the blood from the instrument panels before sending the ship out on its next voyage.

[Prrkitty]

Someone said in this thread that we need to "take them out... from the inside... out". Meaning go to their hide outs... disrupt their money supply line... disrupt their bases... etc.

Stop trying to fight them once they've caused trouble... disrupt 'em BEFORE they get to do anything...

[AtmaWeapon]

We sure taught them a lesson. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/15/somalia.pirates/index.html) Sure they failed to board this ship, but they're attacking with RPGs and automatic weapons.

I can't tell if this is true because of the sixth-grade grammar and organization skills of the CNN writers, but the fifth paragraph leads me to believe it's possible this ship had a military escort when it was attacked.

[Pryme8]

prolly did..

but anyways we are trying to tip toe around them so as not to piss of china... seeing how they own the US now.

[rock_nog]

I find the whole concept of the pirates taking "revenge" to be ridiculous. Revenge for what? They attacked us, we fought back. If you're gonna loot ships and take hostages, don't cry about it when people start fighting back.

[jerome]

I find the whole concept of the pirates taking "revenge" to be ridiculous. Revenge for what? They attacked us, we fought back. If you're gonna loot ships and take hostages, don't cry about it when people start fighting back.

Best way I can think to describe it is as "gang mentality". Gang One attacks the Gang Two. Gang Two gets pissed, retaliates. Gang One says "we're going to get revenge for them attacking us!" It's a neverending ordeal.

And I'm guessing someone's going to say "Thanks for pointing out the obvious Jerome. What's next? The sun's hot? Water's wet? You could be John Madden's replacement with those kind of obvservation skills." Just thought I'd beat someone to the punch on that. ;)

[AtmaWeapon]

What do they want revenge for? Do basic reading from crappy sources (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/19/cobb.somalia.piracy/index.html) and they have plenty of reasons to be pissed.

When they were under a totalitarian regime, the US turned a blind eye because at least it wasn't communism. When the Cold War was over, we left them in turmoil.
Hundreds of ships are illegally fishing Somalia's waters, and no one in the world is doing anything about it.
Countries used Somalia as a nuclear waste dump, but no one cared.

In some ways, the pirates are the only navy Somalia has. At this point, they feel like any ship in their waters might be hostile, and I don't blame them.

[Beldaran]

They aren't defending their country though. They are kidnapping people and demanding money.

[rock_nog]

Okay, you know what, we did a lot of stupid things during the Cold War. But for fuck's sake, the world was on the brink of nuclear annihilation. Maybe we acted a little rashly, and screwed a few people over, but we had bigger fish to fry. One wrong move, and the world would've become a cinder pile, and none of this would make a damn bit of difference. Granted, it was partially our fault, but what were we supposed to do?

Honestly, I'm just sick of this whole "sins of our fathers" crap. Countries holding a grudge against us for things that this nation did before I was even born? Take Iran - I mean, WTF!? Whatever we did against them, it was decades ago, but they're still pissed off at us and won't let it go. Though okay, I know the real deal is that they don't want any possibility of the West being glamorized, for fear of it fueling a youth uprising that would put those fundamentalist nuts in their place.

[Beldaran]

the real deal is that they don't want any possibility of the West being glamorized, for fear of it fueling a youth uprising that would put those fundamentalist nuts in their place.

Better be careful. Whenever I point out that religion is causing problems all over the globe, the god-bots start screaming and calling me names.

[rock_nog]

Yeah, well my criticisms of religion are more tactful. At any rate, let's face it, I'm right. I mean, what was a major driving force in the 1979 revolution? It was a reaction to the perceived "Westernization" of Iran. Which reminds me - found these pictures from Iran before the revolution. Absolutely crazy.

http://www.leenks.com/link167949.html

[Aegix Drakan]

Which reminds me - found these pictures from Iran before the revolution. Absolutely crazy.

ARE.
YOU.
FREAKING.
SERIOUS?

...0_o Uhh...They've taken quite a big step backwards since then, no? like...a massive step.

[AtmaWeapon]

Internet sources as reliable as the one that supplied the images (in fact comments on the linked page) indicate that those images were propaganda distributed by a failing government desperate to bring foreigners (and their money) into the country. There was one city that was progressive and rich and the rest of the country was dirt farmers. I was urged to verify this in wikipedia but what do you know, there's very little information to support such a claim on an encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone!


They aren't defending their country though. They are kidnapping people and demanding money.Those cursed colonists aren't defending a country! They're just tipping a bit of tea into the water!

[Beldaran]

Those cursed colonists aren't defending a country! They're just tipping a bit of tea into the water!

This gets the award for the worst analogy in history.