The Official 4th Quest Contest

[jman2050]

In honor of whatever amount of years ZC has been around, the Zelda Classic developers are introducing the Official 4th Quest Contest. For the 1% of you that were around for the Official 3rd quest contest back when version 1.90 was considered cutting edge, this should be a nice nostalgic throwback. For the other 99% of us, the idea is to create a 4th quest that would've logically been the next iteration of the original NES Legend of Zelda, basically in the same vein as the original 2nd quest or Alphadawg's 3rd quest. This quest, if determined to be the winner, will be packaged as an "official" quest with the final version of Zelda Classic 2.5, playable after completion of AlphaDawg's 4th quest or via the use of a password on the save select screen.

Of course, back when that contest took place ZC 1.90 was little more than a straight remake of the original with a level editor. 2.5 stands to be a significant departure from what is was that long ago. And, as unfortunate as it is, many of the newer modern features of 2.5 can be pretty intimidating to first time users. I know more than a few of the oldtimers appreciated the simplicity of Zelda Classic during that period.

Well, the idea of this contest is return to that period of time and to return to what made Zelda Classic so alluring in the first place. The idea of taking one of the most beloved games of all time on one of the most beloved game platforms of all time, and being able to put your own spin on it. However, it would be disingenuous to look fondly on the past without looking towards the present and future. Zelda Classic has evolved, and so have the tools to let Zelda fans express themselves in more ways than previously possible. The rules of this contest were developed with these thoughts in mind, allowing one to go back to simpler times while allowing one to draw upon what ZC offers currently (to an extent at least).

The goal, simply stated, is to create a quest that accomplishes the same purpose as the 2nd quest in the original Legend of Zelda. However, unlike the 2nd quest, you don't have to strictly adhere to the conventions established for it. Regardless of what you do though, remember that faithfulness to the design philosphy of the original game is a big component on whether your quest is eventually chosen. Everyone can enter with one possible exception specified in the rules to follow.


Official 4th quest rules

1) By entering this contest you agree that, if your entry is determined to be the winner, the Zelda Classic development team retains
the right to package the quest with all future versions of Zelda Classic and to use the quest and any materials therein for
promotional purposes now and in the future.

2) The quest may be built with any future-compatible version of Zelda Classic from 1.90 up to and including whatever build is deemed
the most current. Regardless of the version used, the final quest must adhere to this set of guidelines

a) Only the following rules may be turned on or off at the discretion of the user: "Fast Dungeon Scrolling", "Smooth Vertical Scrolling",
"Invincible Link flickers", "Can't push blocks into unwalkable combos", "Push blocks don't move when blocked", "Combo cycling on layers",
"Scrolling warps don't set the continue point", "Use Old-style warp detection", "Rings affect damage combos", "Multi-directional traps",
"Fast Heart refill". All other quest rules must be DISABLED except for one. The rule "Items Disappear during hold-up" must remain ENABLED.

Edit by L: Actually, it's perfectly alright for you to also turn on "Warps Ignore Arrival X/Y Position When Setting Continue Screen",
"Use Warp Return Points Only" (as long as you use the Warp Return A square for everything that the green square is used for),
"Damage Combos Work On Layers", and "Log Game Events to Allegro.log" (But you'll probably want that off when you finish testing.)

Another edit by L: "FFC Are Visible While Screen Is Scrolling" is also permissible, if you're using FFCs prudently. And "1.90-Style Tribbles" is also allowed,
but since you can edit every aspect of the Tribble enemies, it's relatively meaningless to the seasoned questmaker.

b) The original NES Zelda graphical style must remain intact. What this means is that you must use the Classic NES tileset, and are allowed
to create new graphics as long as the changes are minor (judges discretion) and said changes maintain the aesthetic style of the original
game (also judge's discretion).

c) New items and new enemies WILL be allowed in this contest, but keep in mind that the goal is to maintain the spirit of the original
game and create an extension of the first three quests. As such, the judges will decide whether any additions to the quest qualify in
this regard. Adding a variant of the candle that uses rupees (much like the arrow - L) or an Octorok that requires 6 hits to defeat is likely okay. Adding the spin
attack, Din's Fire or an Octorok on crack is likely not.

Edit by L:
* No Summoners that can summon bosses, where "bosses" includes the standard bosses, Moldorm, Lanmola and Patra (but not Digdogger Kid).
Also, no Zols, Vires, Darknuts or Digdoggers that split into bosses, and no Tribbles that grow into bosses.
* No editing the "Dust Pile" item or the "Big Triforce" item.
* No Bomb Bags. Use the "More Bombs" Room Type exclusively. The only exception is the Magic Bomb Bag which provides endless bombs,
which functions like the Magic Key and is allowed.
* Weapons cannot slash, nor produce sparkles.

d) In maintaining consistency with the first three quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may
be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT
secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place...

Edit by L:
* You can also change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can
change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool. But don't overdo this.
* "Dungeon entrance" refers to the First Quest screens containing the entrances to the first six dungeons. It's unlikely that you'll be
permitted to change the structure of 0x6D (which is in the middle of a forest) and 0x05 (Spectacle Rock).
* One DMap for the overworld. The following DMap flags must be enabled, with all others disabled: "Use Caves...",
"Allow 3-Stair Warp Rooms", "Allow Whistle Whirlwinds", "Special Rooms and Guys are in Caves Only".
* One 3-Stair Warp Ring per quest.
* One Whistle Warp Ring per quest.

Another edit by L:
* The types of secret entrances one can add or remove in overworld screens include the "Burn Trigger (Any)" flag,
the "Bomb Trigger (Any)" flag, Bracelet push-blocks, Armos->Stairs, Armos->Item, Grave pushblocks and, as seen in Second Quest,
the "Whistle->Stairs" screen flag (which is permitted even if the screen doesn't have a pool - but you must use the
"Whistle->Palette Change" screen flag in conjunction with this.)

e) Dungeons may be made as large or small as one wants and with any room configuration one wants, but the design of any particular
room must be consistent with the first three quests. This means one wall on each side, one door of any type at most situated on a wall.
The contents of a particular room are left to the designs of the quest maker, but as with the graphics and added items/enemies,
faithfulness to the NES design is paramount. Conveyors may be okay. Large superstructures that require the use of several items to
destroy may not.

Edit by L:
* One DMap per dungeon level! And all DMap Flags must be disabled for dungeon DMaps.
* The Continue screen must be the dungeon's inner entrance screen.
* The Compass Marker screen must be the Triforce Fragment's screen.
* The Triforce Fragment's screen must warp Link to the dungeon's entrance in the overworld. (This is done by setting Side Warp A, by the way.)
* The statue combos in the dungeon's inner entrance screen and the Triforce Fragment's screen cannot shoot fireballs.
* No editing the Item Cellar or Passageway screens (0x80 and 0x81) unless it's, well, changing the enemy list so that something
other than 4 Keese appear there. (What? The "Enemy 0" combo flags? ...sure, whatever.)
* No "Fall From Ceiling" enemy patterns.

Another edit by L:
* It was so obvious we forgot to mention this: all dungeon DMaps must be "NES Dungeon". So no Interiors with persistent secrets
and non-functioning doors! (But why would you assume otherwise?)
* Don't use the "Treat as Interior Room" flag to bypass various limitations of the "NES Dungeon" DMap type, either.

f) There must be exactly 9 levels; no more, no less. Each level must have a map and a compass. You may use boss keys and boss doors,
though this isn't necessary. Each of the first 8 levels must contain at least one preprogrammed boss, one triforce piece, and at least one
collectable item. The ninth level must only be accessible by collecting all eight triforce pieces. The boss of level 9 must be Ganon, and the
final goal of level 9, and the quest, is to save Zelda.

Edit by L:
* Levels must use one of the NES dungeon palettes, and two or more levels can't use the same palette. Level 9 must use "White/Red".
* One Ganon per quest, and one Zelda per quest.
* A "Level 9 Entrance" screen must appear somewhere in Level 9 between the dungeon entrance and Ganon's screen.
* ...What?! You want to put another "Level 9 entrance" screen in a lower-leveled dungeon, as a gateway to an "optional area"?! ...um, no.

g) Link can only use NES-style movement and cannot use any of the 2.5 specific modifications (16x16 Link, big link, etc). Freeform
combos are not outright banned, but their use should almost assuredly be restricted to applications that would fall in line with NES
design standards. Scripts are not allowed in any circumstances. The subscreen may be edited to accomodate new items but must retain
the general structure of the original. New music may be used as long as, again, it fits in the context of an NES game. Custom bosses
(defined as enemies that are not created via the enemy editor) are not allowed.

Edit by L: No changing the sound effects, either.

Subsequent additions by L:
h) No string control codes, and no lowercase characters in strings. No DMap Intro strings, and no DMap-specific custom minimaps.
And no DMap item disabling!

i) You can edit the Shop Types, but shops can't sell "+Max" items (heart containers), Triforce fragments, the big Triforce, the Dust Pile,
the Rupee items (?!), Arrow Ammunition or Magic Jars (because the True Arrows / Magic rules are off), and Misc items.
* The same restrictions apply to "Take Only One" Room Types, but they can have "+Max" items in them.
* The same restrictions also apply to Item Drop Sets. Also, Item Drop Sets can't contain items with the "Equipment Item" flag checked.

3) Quests will be judged by the Zelda Classic development team and by a select group of judges to be determined at a later date. Those
chosen as judges may not enter this contest. The Zelda Classic development team will have the final say as to the winner.

4) All entries must be submitted by April 15 2009 at 11:59PM EST (GMT -5). Entries must be submitted in qst form, either raw or in a
zip file. Entries may be kept private at the quest maker's discretion unless it is chosen as the winner, in which case section 1 applies.

5) Most of all, this is a fun exercise that is meant to stimulate the creative person within all of you without intimidating people
into using the most advanced features. Please enjoy yourselves!

Note that these rules are subject to change at any point during the competition if deemed necessary.

[Dark Nation]

So, one minute before noon on April 15, Eastern Standard Time, yes?

[jman2050]

So, one minute before noon on April 15, Eastern Standard Time, yes?

Oh aren't you a smart one.

[Russ]

Sounds fun. I might do it, but the time restraint's kind of pushing it.

Now, let me ask something. How much can we change the overworld? For example, would it be alright to have separate dmaps on it, so that we could us different midis for different sections? Could we make subtile changes, like shadows in the forest, lava pools on Death Mountain, etc?

As for bosses, would semi-custom bosses be allowed? Like, you enter the screen, and their's a statue of an aquamentus. You kill all the octoroks in the room, and are warped to a room where you fight an aquamentus. Sort of like the bosses in Bloodline Classic, and a little like some of the bosses in Lost Isle. Would that be okay?

As for items, would items like the hookshot be allowed?

[CaRmAgE]

For 2a, shouldn't you add that 'Items disappear during hold-up' should be left on, or is it supposed to be off as well?

[Din]

You're kidding... that's the quest I'm working on for the classic set right now, and I have been working on for the past few months! What are the odds? Ooh, this is going to be fun. Good luck to all competitors, and best wishes!

[Dark Nation]

Oh aren't you a smart one.
You'd be surprised how many people might look at the time and think "that's one minute before 12" and they see the "am" and think "12 am is midnight".
:shrug:

[JP Blanchette]

For 2b) Are we allowed to use the Classic Tileset ONLY or can we use another Tileset like the BS Tileset?

Also, what about MIDIs? Are they allowed or not permitted?

[jman2050]

Classic Tileset, though you can add to it as long as it still looks like the classic tileset.

Also, as was mentioned, you can use new MIDIs if you think they fit it in with the style of the original game.

[ShadowTiger]

Such as a remixed version of any of the themes that are already in the game?

No Custom Bosses, I take it? I.e. you can't defeat Ganon in Level 9, but then face a "super" version of him immediately afterwards?


Can we use Inherent flags?


Can we use Chests?


Minibosses?
What about miniboss boss music and separate Dmaps for them?
What about special warp-related events for transitioning between them and the rest of the dungeon?


Can we create a new dungeon that's not a "level?" I.e. it'd have no triforce, but would have at the end, say, a Heart container?


Can we use Heart container Pieces?


Can we use alter Shop Types?

[Gleeok]

What about the difficulty level? In following with the previous design concepts wouldn't the fourth quest have to be harder than the third? It would seem silly to play them in order and find out that the fourth quest is easier than AlphaDawgs third.

[Din]

Yeah, and should the text be in capital letters only, like in first through third, or can it be in lowercase too?

[jman2050]

Such as a remixed version of any of the themes that are already in the game?

If you think they'd fit, just remember to use moderation.


No Custom Bosses, I take it? I.e. you can't defeat Ganon in Level 9, but then face a "super" version of him immediately afterwards?

No


Can we use Inherent flags?
Yes


Can we use Chests?
Yes


Minibosses?
What about miniboss boss music and separate Dmaps for them?
What about special warp-related events for transitioning between them and the rest of the dungeon?

It really depends on what you want to do, but anything elaborate would look out of place.


Can we create a new dungeon that's not a "level?" I.e. it'd have no triforce, but would have at the end, say, a Heart container?
No


Can we use Heart container Pieces?
If you find enough places to use them I guess. Remember, the overworld must be identical to the standard one.


Can we use alter Shop Types?
Yes


What about the difficulty level? In following with the previous design concepts wouldn't the fourth quest have to be harder than the third? It would seem silly to play them in order and find out that the fourth quest is easier than AlphaDawgs third.

If you want it to be! If you plan to go that route of course, make sure to keep it playable at least.

[Anthus]

Maybe there should be a list of usable items.

[Chris Miller]

Myself, I'm keeping it classic, using only elements found in the original Legend of Zelda. That's not to say it will be easy. :)

[AlphaDawg]

Hmmm... this may be enough to get me back into a quest-designing mood. It's been a while since I made an all-new quest. I just need to find the time.

[jman2050]

If AlphaDawg manages to win the same contest twice with several years between them then he is extremely awesome and I'd be disappointed in the rest of you :P

[Dark Nation]

Hmmm... If AlphaDawg wins again, what would you put in to go directly to his 4th quest? Alpha is already used for the 3rd one. Dawg, maybe? :D

[Russ]

How about Beta. :D

[CaRmAgE]

Don't worry, jman. I'll make sure the competition is fierce. ;)

Anyway, I have a new question on top of my other one from earlier:


For 2a, shouldn't you add that 'Items disappear during hold-up' should be left on, or is it supposed to be off as well?

Here's my new question: Is it ok to move the cave with the first sword to a different location, or should it remain where it's always been?

[jman2050]

As far as the 'Items disappear during hold-up' goes, yes, that should be left on.

You can move the cave with the first sword if you like. I can't guarantee that everyone judging will like swordless questing though :P

[Russ]

I've got most of mine planned out now. I'm planning on it really staying true to the NES style. No new music, sword in same place, no overworld changes (aside from secrets, of course), etc. And I also have the level gimmicks thought up. Now I just need to start working.

[jman2050]

The rules in the original post have been changed slightly to accomodate the clarifications made in this topic.

[Alex-Link]

I wonder if my Legend of Zelda Remix can qualify for this...pft it's almost been a year since I've made it so I don't exactly know :S

[*b*]

Simply because we're forced to use the default overworld for Z1 and the corresponding graphics, I'm not even going to try. However, I look forward to seeing what some of these people come up with

[gray0x]

Since Ganon sucks, are we allowed to edit him to have more health and stuff like that?
Also, would a Level 4 Sword be acceptable?

[jman2050]

Since Ganon sucks, are we allowed to edit him to have more health and stuff like that?

Sure


Also, would a Level 4 Sword be acceptable?

As stated in the rules, new items are allowed, just be judicious in their use.

[Questwizard88]

A bunch of questions here:

1: So we are allowed to make very minor modifications on the overworld itself? I threw in the extra water tiles from the new classic set and fixed up the water borders that were missing on the overworld so far. Just wanted to make sure that's ok.

2: Also, we have to keep the original 9 dungeon extrances in the same spot, except we can make them lead to different dungeons, right? I know for sure levels 1 and 9 will be in the exact same place as the original 1st quest, but I wanted to possibly move a few others around a bit.

3: Are we also allowed to modify palettes slightly, assuming they still conform to the original NES palette? I also wanted to use different colors for some of the dungeons. I also want to add an extra cSet to the overworld.

4: What about layering? I'm talking mainly about things like rain, thunder, fog, etc., and other non-gameplay affecting stuff only. I want to make the majority of the overworld be under quite bad weather, and was wondering if that's ok to do or not. I'd still stay within the NES palette there of course.

5: Combo types and other stuff not in the original LoZ: are they allowed for the most part as long as we don't go overboard with them?

6: I also want to add actual ground types in on the overworld, like throwing grass and dirt in some places basically. Is that ok?

That's about it for now.

[jman2050]

1) If all you're doing is touching up the graphics without changing the look, that's fine.

2) Actually, much like the 2nd and 3rd quests, you can put the dungeon entrances wherever you like! Finding them is half the fun in fact!

3) Depends on if it looks good. If you think you can pull it off, go for it.

4) Eh, the one thing that should really be consistent between all the quests is the overworld, so I dunno if that would work. You're willing to try at your own risk of course!

5) yes

6) See answer 4

[AmazingAmpharos]

I actually decided to become active again and throw my hat into the ring for this one. I am sticking very faithful to Zelda 1 with this one. By very faithful I mean "my dungeons interlock and fit on two maps" faithful (strictly a personal goal on that one, and yes they are all shaped like something). I don't think my block formations and enemy combination are NES possible and I have a few other subtle things that are outside of the original game, but at some point design has to take priority over this sort of thing. I hope this turns out to be an advantage instead of the obvious disadvantage it is; I'm trying to make it something that you would not have been very surprised to see running on an NES when you were a kid (even if you would be a little surprised as a tech savvy older person who knows all sorts of pedantic things about the engine).

[jman2050]

Yes, it's important that we stress that while modern design philosophies are welcome, ultimately what it comes down to is how faithful the quest is to the design of the original game and, of course, how fun it is to play. Make sure not to skimp on that last part everyone :P

[Questwizard88]

I'm making some use of custom enemies in mine, but that's about it other than the very few custom tiles, and the custom dungeon palettes, which still fit in the NES palette so far. Two of those enemies are just about as strong as normal enemies, and are used psecifically for certain item drops which I won't spoil. There's also customized bosses (still all within the enemy editor functionality, and not much different than the original at this point. The only thing I'm gonna really be worried about is the Bombtoroks in level 2, as they're 4 hits and shoot lit bombs. Hopefully that won't cause too much of an issue, as other than that, it pretty much fits in with NES limitations. I decided against using new combotypes as well in the end to try to avoid straying too far from what it can do. Pretty much minus the enemies and customized shops/item drops, it fits in with what ZC 1.00 could do, which is my goal.

[System Error]

I think it should be strict, NES things only, with the exception of Strings. For one, it will make it so that everyone is on even ground, so to speak. And for two, things like layering, etc. were not around back then, so all those semi-advanced features suddenly being used in the fourth quest would be weird.

Also, what version do we use?

[Russ]

Out of curiosity, how far is everybody? I've got all the level shapes and the items they house planned out, I have some of the level locations planned, and I'm copy/pasting blank rooms to get the dungeon shapes out. How far is are you?

[JP Blanchette]

I've got Level-1 done. Now, I'm working on Level-2.

BTW, I have a question: When we turn in our submissions, do we do it on the Quest DataBase or by other means?

[CaRmAgE]

Out of curiosity, how far is everybody? I've got all the level shapes and the items they house planned out, I have some of the level locations planned, and I'm copy/pasting blank rooms to get the dungeon shapes out. How far is are you?

I've completely finished the Overworld and Level 1. I've planned out the shapes of all the other levels and what items they'll contain. I am currently working on Level 2.

[jman2050]

I've got Level-1 done. Now, I'm working on Level-2.

BTW, I have a question: When we turn in our submissions, do we do it on the Quest DataBase or by other means?

Any method is fine as long as we have access to it and know you've actually finished.

[Pheonix]

I've done Level 1, some of Level 2, the overworld secrets (minus most of the entrances for the dungeons), and am now waiting for the next build so that I can choose secret combos without ZQuest crashing.

[Questwizard88]

I've gotten level 1, level 2, and 3/4 of level 3 done, and a chunk of the overworld done here already. Just planning as I go instead of wasting time doing it in advance, and its coming out fairly well so far.

EDIT: Level 3 is done. Going to start on 4 tomorrow.

EDIT2: Another 2 questions I need clarification on:

1: So customized bosses made with the enmy editor are allowed? (I've assumed its a yes up to this point, as you defined a custom boss as something not made in the editor. The level 1 boss is an Aquamentus with a different cSet and more HP)

2: Also, I need to make a small hole in the desert mountains to go between there and the original level 2 entrance for the desert dungeon. I would guess that's permitted? The original way of going up the ladder from the screen below is still there of course. Just adding another entry. I'm also changing around the enemies on the overworld to go with the increased difficulty. Is that ok to do also?

[Sylph]

Question.


d) In maintaining consistency with the first three quests, the overworld must remain almost entirely identical to those quests. There may
be subtle aesthetic differences (such as changing the entrance of a dungeon to the entrance of a cave) but aside that must be the same.
Note that you are free to rearrange secret entrances, item locations, and cave types to your liking, but any entrances that are NOT
secrets must remain in the same place, though of course they don't have to LEAD to the same place...

However, from 1st to 2nd quest, there WERE some Overworld differences concerning entrances. If memory doesn't fail me, the Level 5 Entrance in 1st became a Fairy Pond in the 2nd, the Level 2 Entrance in the 1st was submerged into a lake in which you have to use the whistle to enter Level 3 in the 2nd...

...are changes like these permitted, then? Or must we stay faithful to the other overworlds? If the latter, then which one? 1st or 2nd quest?

EDIT: Also, are we able to change the warps? As in, from Cave/Item warps to a Instant Warp w/Blackout to another screen in extra maps (that look the same as a cave)?

[jman2050]

Those changes were what I was referring to when I said "almost identical". I forgot about changing the entrance to a fairy pond though. Changes of those type are permitted if used sparingly.

[Sylph]

Got it. Thanks. Also, are multiple tile warps in the same screen allowed? Including the overworld?

[ShadowTiger]

Well, you can't change the overworld in the first place, so no multiple warps in the overworld, as there were never any multiple warps there in the original.

[Shazza Dani]

You could add multiple secret caves though, right?

[Sylph]

Well, you can't change the overworld in the first place, so no multiple warps in the overworld, as there were never any multiple warps there in the original.

No, I mean... one cave already existing in the oveworld and a second cave that is only discovered by a secret.

EDIT:

You could add multiple secret caves though, right?

...or like that. (Reminder to self: read every post there is before posting a reply. >>; )

[Nicholas Steel]

The number of caves/entrances must be the same and in the same location as 1st/2nd/3rdquest (/ means "or")

Rule 2d.

[Russ]

But, the rules say you can add secret caves (ones that you bomb open).

[jman2050]

But, the rules say you can add secret caves (ones that you bomb open).

This basically. Don't forget armoses and pushable rocks either.

[Questwizard88]

So it does need to be the exact same number of secrets and of the same types? And what about my question on changing the screen enemies? Because I've already started moving secrets to totally different spots/wiping some out/adding others and redoing all the enemies on each screen.

[jman2050]

you don't need the same number of secrets. That'd just be silly.

Changing the onscreen enemies is fine, provided the changes are minor and in spirit with the rest of the game.

[ShadowTiger]

This basically. Don't forget armoses and pushable rocks either.

This actually doesn't really answer the question of multiple warps per screen. This only says (Due to defaulting to the minimum in case of a post like mine here.) that we're allowed to add secrets to screens that don't already have them. Doesn't mean we can have more than one secret on the same screen.


However, rest assured, I am certainly expecting a yes. Though that doesn't quite account for room types though, as you still have to use screen 80, which disallows more than one Room Type per screen.

[Sylph]

And another quest has arisen... must the level dungeons all fit under one DMap? Or are we allowed to use more than one DMap per dungeon if, say, it's bigger than what the limits allow?

[_L_]

I've made some additions and clarifications to the rules, as I assume is my right as a judge. Most all of what I added is commonsense, though!

If you want to be a bit more adherent to NES limitations, here is a familiar-looking chart:
http://l.j-factor.com/zeldaclassic/enemy_limitations.png

Note that this actually applies to palettes, not levels themselves. For instance, level 2 of Second Quest used palette #3 - hence the Manhandlas and Darknuts.


....

Incidentally... I've been thinking about the password for the 4th quest. I'm personally wanting it to fit in with the ZELDA password. How about, say, GANON? (Note: this is deliberately not GANNON)

[Questwizard88]

See comments in bold.

* Levels must use one of the NES dungeon palettes, and two or more levels can't use the same palette. Level 9 must use "White/Red".

Gah, there went the time I spent making some new palettes that actually match the levels.

* "Dungeon entrance" refers to the First Quest screens containing the entrances to the first six dungeons. It's unlikely that you'll be
permitted to change the structure of 0x6D (which is in the middle of a forest) and 0x05 (Spectacle Rock).

Now I've gotta revert 0x05 as I changed it slightly to add in a mouth shape at the bottom since its a face shrine in mine. I would also assume that the small 1-tile high hole I cut between the desert area and the screen with the original L2 entrance has to be reverted too?

* You can also change a dungeon entrance into a fairy pool or a whistle->stairs pool, and vice versa. And, of course, you can
change First Quest's existing whistle->stairs pool into a fairy pool or an ordinary pool with no secrets. But don't overdo this.

I hope this won't cause too much trouble, cause I switched that one to a bomb secret, then switched a fairy pool elsewhere to a whistle-stairs one.

* The same restrictions also apply to Item Drop Sets. Also, Item Drop Sets can't contain items with the "Equipment Item" flag checked.

Shot me again. I had a L2 Peahat set for letter drops, and a custom moldorm (rock worm) set for the bracelet.

Sigh. Just gotta make this difficult on me.
In all, I'm not very happy now seeing as this was pretty much deemed OK when I did it from the start. No offense to anyone, but its actually more of discouraging me from doing this now than its helping get me back into things again.

[_L_]

Gah, there went the time I spent making some new palettes that actually match the levels.
My apologies. The NES has restrictive colour limitations! You'll have to put a bit more burden upon the players' imaginations.


Now I've gotta revert 0x05 as I changed it slightly to add in a mouth shape at the bottom since its a face shrine in mine. I would also assume that the small 1-tile high hole I cut between the desert area and the screen with the original L2 entrance has to be reverted too?Well, I can't really speak for what jman2050 meant by "subtle aesthetic differences"... but I assume that a non-aesthetic difference is one that changes how one can access or travel between various overworld regions. Such as adding or removing exits from overworld rooms. Personally, I don't think it's likely to be idly permitted.


I hope this won't cause too much trouble, cause I switched that one to a bomb secret, then switched a fairy pool elsewhere to a whistle-stairs one.

Ah, pardon me... by "no secrets" I meant that the pool itself contains no secrets. Sure, a bomb secret is fine.


Shot me again. I had a L2 Peahat set for letter drops, and a custom moldorm (rock worm) set for the bracelet.
Just use "Enemy Carries Item"! What's the problem? ...D-Don't tell me you desperately want an enemy to only drop an Equipment Item some of the time!


P.S: I decided just now that two more quest rules can be permitted. See first post!

[jman2050]

See comments in bold.

Gah, there went the time I spent making some new palettes that actually match the levels.

It seems to be a point in contention, so all of us devs should probably get together and find out where we stand on this. L makes a good point that the NES palette was pretty restrictive, but it seems like an unnecessary stipulation to me.

Now I've gotta revert 0x05 as I changed it slightly to add in a mouth shape at the bottom since its a face shrine in mine. I would also assume that the small 1-tile high hole I cut between the desert area and the screen with the original L2 entrance has to be reverted too?

I somehow missed your previous post mentioning this. Really, one of the biggest thematic elements between all the official quests is that their overworlds are pretty much identical. _L_ basically outlined the permitted and non-permitted changes I was thinking of when I mentioned "aesthetic differences".

I hope this won't cause too much trouble, cause I switched that one to a bomb secret, then switched a fairy pool elsewhere to a whistle-stairs one.

As L said, that's fine

Shot me again. I had a L2 Peahat set for letter drops, and a custom moldorm (rock worm) set for the bracelet.[/QUOTE]

Also as L said, enemies can carry items, why can't you just do that?

[jman2050]

See comments in bold.

Gah, there went the time I spent making some new palettes that actually match the levels.

It seems to be a point in contention, so all of us devs should probably get together and find out where we stand on this. L makes a good point that the NES palette was pretty restrictive, but it seems like an unnecessary stipulation to me.


Now I've gotta revert 0x05 as I changed it slightly to add in a mouth shape at the bottom since its a face shrine in mine. I would also assume that the small 1-tile high hole I cut between the desert area and the screen with the original L2 entrance has to be reverted too?

I somehow missed your previous post mentioning this. Really, one of the biggest thematic elements between all the official quests is that their overworlds are pretty much identical. _L_ basically outlined the permitted and non-permitted changes I was thinking of when I mentioned "aesthetic differences".


I hope this won't cause too much trouble, cause I switched that one to a bomb secret, then switched a fairy pool elsewhere to a whistle-stairs one.

As L said, that's fine


Shot me again. I had a L2 Peahat set for letter drops, and a custom moldorm (rock worm) set for the bracelet.

Also as L said, enemies can carry items, why can't you just do that?

[Questwizard88]

I reverted those desert changes and killed the rocks at the level 9 entrance. The bracelet's now carried on a screen with a stronger enemy (had to mod the enemies on just that screen). I ended up just moving the letter back into a secret cave. I also did just change the trunk color on 4 trees in the overworld, as its gonna be significant to a certain set of secrets you have to get after level 4..

By the way, the dungeon palettes I had do fit with the NES palette limitations, using the "fixed" slightly darker version of the palette that the game icons use now, which makes me wonder why the proposed quests all use the old brightened palette still, when in reality they should be using the fixed one.
If you're curious, here they are: http://www.questwizard.net/misccrap/qw4thnewdgnpal.png

[Archangel]

Question, are we allow to change the whistle warp/3-stair warp locations.

[Shazza Dani]

http://l.j-factor.com/zeldaclassic/enemy_limitations.png


Just an observation… I'm guessing the first enemy is supposed the be a Fireball, right? Because Moldorm uses the same sprite as the Fireballs, and you didn't include Moldorm on that chart anywhere.

[Questwizard88]

I do believe its a Moldorm. They were used throughout, especially in the second quest if I remember right, including level 1 I think.

Yep, its a Moldorm. Screen 2:27 has two of them in Level 1.

[Shazza Dani]

So Moldorm can appear in all nine levels? I never played all the way through Quest 2, so I wouldn't know… O:

[Questwizard88]

Well, seeing as that fireball tile is apparently loaded up in all nine levels in both quests by that chart, I would guess that's a yes. Good chance its loaded up just because of the fireball statues.

EDIT: Oh, and about the NES palette thing I was talking about earlier, I am using that "fixed" palette throughout my whole quest. It'd be a very easy copy-paste job if you need it in the brighter one though. Personally, I'm liking the way that darker one looks.

[4matsy]

Well, seeing as that fireball tile is apparently loaded up in all nine levels in both quests by that chart, I would guess that's a yes. Good chance its loaded up just because of the fireball statues.
Yeah, that's it exactly.

Here's a version of that chart that actually shows the level palettes as well:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/412/z1enemynes.png

You can easily see now that there's 3 groups of minor enemies, 3 groups of bosses, and one group used for every dungeon. (And a whole different set for the overworld, too. And Zora still uses that fireball, and it's loaded into the same spot in memory...it's possible to use Moldorm in the overworld without getting garbled graphics. (Though its movement does glitch up a bit since it wasn't really meant to be used there. Heh. :p))

The way the Triforce pieces are laid out on the subscreen once collected is also tied to level palettes:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6007/z1triforcearrangement.png

Both quests actually use the same pattern based on the level palettes. The game's internal level numbers never really change; they stay with the same palettes, and then the game swaps the level number written above the minimap. So you'll go to the teal/red dungeon in the 2nd quest, and it'll say "LEVEL 2", but the game still thinks it's level 3. You can see this for yourself by blowing the whistle after finishing 2nd quest level 2...it takes you to the 1st quest's level 3 warp point. :p

[Questwizard88]

Yeah, that's it exactly.
(Though its movement does glitch up a bit since it wasn't really meant to be used there. Heh. :P))


It even glitches up in ZC. I found that out when I tried using the rock worm I had made on the overworld. It ended up moving completely off the screen, and up into the subscreen a few times.

[CJC]

You didn't mention anything about the mazes on the overworld. I seem to remember the paths being different in 3rd quest (And possibly in 2nd quest as well, though that's a little more foggy).

So can we play with mazes? (Well, not me personally... I don't have the drive to pump out a quest in two weeks). Could the mazes be moved on the overworld? Any screen with symmetric vertical and horizontal entry points could be made into a maze room. I don't know how effective they would be in different locations, but it might be fun to confuse the player.


EDIT: Even better, could you throw one into a dungeon?

[System Error]

They were the same in the 3rd quest and 2nd quest. Personally, I think everyone needs to stop trying to find cute ways around the rules of the contest, shut up, and just work within the original version's limitations.

[AmazingAmpharos]

Here's a question that I think is fair. The rules say Whistle->Stairs must be accompanied by Whistle-> Palette Change. Does Whistle->Dry Lake also have to be used? I ask this because my game has one screen in a dungeon that has water and a Whistle->Stairs secret (I really hope that using Whistle->Stairs in dungeons in general is fine!). Dungeon water doesn't really look like water so being able to walk over it would be strange. I could rework the room if I had to, but if I don't, I'd just leave it be.

[CJC]

They were the same in the 3rd quest and 2nd quest. Personally, I think everyone needs to stop trying to find cute ways around the rules of the contest, shut up, and just work within the original version's limitations.

Actually I read the rules thoroughly and there was nothing in there about maze room types, which is why I asked. Seeing as a maze does not change the actual appearance of the overworld, and it is an old mechanic to begin with, I wanted to know if it was acceptable.

[pkmnfrk]

They were the same in the 3rd quest and 2nd quest. Personally, I think everyone needs to stop trying to find cute ways around the rules of the contest, shut up, and just work within the original version's limitations.

Ok, I hope you've got your 42 dungeon screens set up, since the original version did not support any more unique screens than that.

[Russ]

Just though I'd say, I'm out of the contest. I've been going in and out of town for the past month, and have to go out of town again soon, so there's no way I'll have time to finish this.

[System Error]

Ok, I hope you've got your 42 dungeon screens set up, since the original version did not support any more unique screens than that.

So? The third quest worked within those restrictions. Why shouldn't the 4th one? Why should it suddenly have semi-advanced features like new enemies in it? It doesn't make sense.

[jman2050]

So? The third quest worked within those restrictions. Why shouldn't the 4th one? Why should it suddenly have semi-advanced features like new enemies in it? It doesn't make sense.

Because I said it can.

How's that?

[System Error]

Fine, fine. I still think those features should be saved for more advanced demo quests, but whatever. :P

[Archangel]

Question, could I make it so the raft paths no longer work. And change the two maze path solutions? Also, what about making ganon tougher, that is changing his HP and Attack power.

[Questwizard88]

The way the Triforce pieces are laid out on the subscreen once collected is also tied to level palettes:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6007/z1triforcearrangement.png

Both quests actually use the same pattern based on the level palettes. The game's internal level numbers never really change; they stay with the same palettes, and then the game swaps the level number written above the minimap. So you'll go to the teal/red dungeon in the 2nd quest, and it'll say "LEVEL 2", but the game still thinks it's level 3. You can see this for yourself by blowing the whistle after finishing 2nd quest level 2...it takes you to the 1st quest's level 3 warp point. :p

I did this exact thing in mine, using level palette 3 for my level 2 dungeon, so I should keep the level number as 3 but tell them its 2, and it should go at the bottom left on the triforce pieces? And should I set the whistle for that to level 2's screen or to 3's to be correct with the NES bahavior? I'm sort of confused now.

[rhm815]

The palette business is refering only to the colors right (and possibly triforce locations)? Because strict enemy limitations per dungeon were not enforced on the 3rd quest contest (level 9 has just about everything, darknuts/wizzrobes ganon/gleeok/goma like-like/gibdo). While "enemy theme-ing" the levels can give a more classic zelda feel, I don't see the need for arbitrary constraints. But what's the official ruling here?

Also I'm curious on the unresolved darknut issue in the "exterminated bugs" thread titled "[887] ZC gets confused where you hit the enemy " (I can't seem to post links or I would, it should be very near the top)
It greatly impacts making an original-style quest and time is running out.

Also, I think the GANON password is awesome.
I guess there's also LINK, HYRULE, TRIFORCE.

[Sylph]

Several questions as well.

Still on the palettes-level correspondence, if we alter the palette of the levels (using the palette for level 8 in level 1, for example), must we make the whistle warps match irregularly (as in, using the whistle after finishing level 1 to take you to the level 8 entrance)? Or can we edit it accordingly? Also, in the same note, must we make the player receive the Triforce piece that goes in the erroneous slot (the eighth piece, for example)?


So can we play with mazes?

This also intrigues me. I don't mean to change the locations of the mazes around, but can I alter the way that you clear said maze? The Exits are in the same place, but the order you must go through screens differ, I mean.

EDIT: Another thing: Secret Combos / Flag Triggers. In Dungeons (only), are we allowed to use flags that weren't used in the original? Like Boomerang Triggers, Arrow Triggers or Sword Triggers?

ANOTHER EDIT: In terms of Rules. Shouldn't "Use Old-Style Warp Detection" remain enabled as well? Also, is it okay to enable "Constant Traps Can Pass Through Enemies"?

[Questwizard88]

The way I've got it set up right now is the triforce pieces go into the one by the level palette. I've done several palette switches so far, including using the level 3 palette in level 2. I just set the level to 3 in the DMap, but the title to LEVEL-2. With the default 1st quest triforce setup, it goes into the correct slot automatically that way as long as the level numbers themselves are correct.

[AlphaDawg]

Meh... it doesn't look like I'll have the time to make an entry. Making the deadline Tax Day is just plain mean!* I'll volunteer to judge the contest though.

* Actually my taxes are a piece of cake. Working retail, however, is not.

[jman2050]

Reminding everyone that the tentative deadline is April 15th. If there's considered a pressing need the deadline could possibly be extended, but everyone should still operate under the assumption that the 15th is the date.

Also, make sure that you let one of us know directly when your quest is ready for submission, whether it be via PM or IM or whatever. Also note that playing through these quests is going to take time, so I can't say when we'll have the results.

[rhm815]

AlphaDawg!!! :(

I think we could all benefit from an extension (say May 15th! :D)

Trying to fit a 1 month contest into my schedule has been hard, especially at this point in the school year (and for a contest such as this, I would love to play entries that people got to spend some quality time on without being rushed).

Whenever the contest is over, will we all get to play the entries immediately or after they are judged (or never)? (pending authors approval ofcourse)
Like a listing of all entries in this thread or something.

[SpacemanDan]

I can probably finish before April 15th, but I probably won't be able to properly test it.

Also, I have a small question:
Are we allowed to use Bats (to replace keese, sice they suck), Super Darknuts, Stalfos 3 (because Stalfos 2 are too easy later in the game) and of the other enhanced ZC enemies?

Sorry if this was already answered.

[CaRmAgE]

Are we allowed to use Bats (to replace keese, sice they suck), Super Darknuts, Stalfos 3 (because Stalfos 2 are too easy later in the game) and of the other enhanced ZC enemies?


c) New items and new enemies WILL be allowed in this contest, but keep in mind that the goal is to maintain the spirit of the original
game and create an extension of the first three quests. As such, the judges will decide whether any additions to the quest qualify in
this regard. Adding a variant of the candle that uses rupees (much like the arrow - L) or an Octorok that requires 6 hits to defeat is likely okay. Adding the spin
attack, Din's Fire or an Octorok on crack is likely not.

If by "Super Darknut" you are referring to the Death Knight, the answer is most likely a no.

EDIT: Hopefully, I'll be finished by the deadline. I haven't been able to work on it recently due to having 8 college papers due these past 3 weeks (wtf humanities?!?). I'm almost done, though, so expect a test quest soon.

[Questwizard88]

If by "Super Darknut" you are referring to the Death Knight, the answer is most likely a no.

EDIT: Hopefully, I'll be finished by the deadline. I haven't been able to work on it recently due to having 8 college papers due these past 3 weeks (wtf humanities?!?). I'm almost done, though, so expect a test quest soon.

I just pumped up the stalfos 3's hp and took out the 4 sword beams and made it just the one still for mine. Highest darknuts are still the normal blue ones though, as 10 of them in one room is pretty crazy, even with the blue ring and lots of heart containers, along with the magic sword.

oh, and I had boatloads of papers and other junk in my humanities classes, so I guess its nothing unusual. One had a 3-5 page research paper due the first class day of each week, which was insane.

[Sylph]

The palette business is refering only to the colors right (and possibly triforce locations)? Because strict enemy limitations per dungeon were not enforced on the 3rd quest contest (level 9 has just about everything, darknuts/wizzrobes ganon/gleeok/goma like-like/gibdo). While "enemy theme-ing" the levels can give a more classic zelda feel, I don't see the need for arbitrary constraints. But what's the official ruling here?




Several questions as well.

Still on the palettes-level correspondence, if we alter the palette of the levels (using the palette for level 8 in level 1, for example), must we make the whistle warps match irregularly (as in, using the whistle after finishing level 1 to take you to the level 8 entrance)? Or can we edit it accordingly? Also, in the same note, must we make the player receive the Triforce piece that goes in the erroneous slot (the eighth piece, for example)?


So can we play with mazes?

This also intrigues me. I don't mean to change the locations of the mazes around, but can I alter the way that you clear said maze? The Exits are in the same place, but the order you must go through screens differ, I mean.

EDIT: Another thing: Secret Combos / Flag Triggers. In Dungeons (only), are we allowed to use flags that weren't used in the original? Like Boomerang Triggers, Arrow Triggers or Sword Triggers?

ANOTHER EDIT: In terms of Rules. Shouldn't "Use Old-Style Warp Detection" remain enabled as well? Also, is it okay to enable "Constant Traps Can Pass Through Enemies"?

Sorry for reiterating these, but the deadline is fast approaching and the answer to these questions could mean drastic changes in my quest...

Also. A weaker Wizzrobe that instead of magic launches a flame two squares in front of it (like a candle) is acceptable or already a borderline 'No'? (Or a straight-out 'no')

[_L_]

...w-what? Hey! Looks like time's up! Pencils down, everyone!

[Questwizard88]

I sent mine in to jman last night. I assume he's the one we were supposed to send it to, right?

[CaRmAgE]

I sent mine in to jman last night. I assume he's the one we were supposed to send it to, right?

I did the same, so I hope that's right.

[jman2050]

Any one of us is fine, although judging from the number of PMs I've gotten I'm gonna be doing most of the initial work :P

[jman2050]

Oh, and the contest is not technically over yet (that's at around midnight tonight), so if anyone needs to make last minute adjustments or still has to submit, better hurry.

[Sylph]

Quick (mayhaps idiotic) question before I submit! The quests are supposed to be unpassworded, right?

[jman2050]

Doesn't matter, as long as the quest is complete and playable. It's not like we couldn't open a passworded quest if necessary anyway.

[Sylph]

Gotcha. Uploading the quest to MegaUpload now, then... Will probably edit this once it's done.

EDIT: It's uploaded, and PM has been sent. =D Hopefully everything's OK.

[jman2050]

We had a pretty excellent turnout, at least it seems initially. Pending any unforseen difficulties, I count 8 entries from various folk. The developers will be assembling an outside judging team now and we will be looking over all the entries. Don't know how long that'll take though, as playing through 8 complete quests shouldn't be a quick affair.

[Din]

Best of luck to all participants! May the best quest win. ;)

[Archangel]

Just out of curiosity, but how is the judging coming along?

[_L_]

Hello! Having already played through the quests to a reasonable extent, and as just one of the tools assisting me in my judging duties, I made this utility that lets one easily compare the overworlds of the contenders' quests with the overworlds of 1st and 2nd quest.

http://l.j-factor.com/zeldaclassic/fourth/overworlds.html

Now with minor corrections!

[_L_]

* Added the Fourth Quest. The quest-making contest resulted in a tie of sorts between Questwizard and HeroOfFire, and both of their quests had some great parts and some not-great parts. So, I got approval to make a quest file containing only the great parts from both quests. Fourth Quest consists of HeroOfFire's overworld and Questwizard's dungeons. (Due to luck, very little of either quest had to be adjusted to make them fit together.)
Because Gleeok's hard at work fixing ZC's memory usage at the moment, a new publicly accessible build may be delayed for a while. So you can see/bugfix the Fourth Quest here (http://l.j-factor.com/zeldaclassic/fourth/Fourth.qst). I'd like to thank all the competitors for making this a worthy contest, as well as those judges who actually managed to post their results.

FAQ:
Q) Did it have to take 13 months?
A) No.

[Gleeok]

Because Gleeok's hard at work fixing ZC's memory usage at the moment, a new publicly accessible build may be delayed for a while.
Uh huh. Gleeok could also use a few people to verify that everything works right right about now.

And Congrats to HeroOfFire's overworld and Questwizard's dungeons! Seriously who saw that one coming? I'll tell you who didn't: M-Night Shyamalan! :p

[XMuppetSB]

Just a couple questions... Will it be possible to get 16 heart containers in the 4th Quest? I'm just asking because I only see 4 heart containers on HeroOfFire's Overworld. Also, is the bracelet supposed to be in Level 1? Because according to HeroOfFire's Overworld map, the bracelet is indeed required to get access to level 2.

[_L_]

Those number among the "very little" that was changed. With QW's consent, I swapped a few of the dungeon items around. Fortunately the dungeons themselves don't require those particular items until much later.

Also I, um, accidentally left out one of the heart containers from my map.

[Matthew Bluefox]

Will there be a Proposed4th.QST file as well? That would really be great. I found the Bracelet in Level 1, butt I ran out of bombs when I opened the door to south which is supposed to lead to the boss room. :p

[XMuppetSB]

I don't think so... The proposed 1st, proposed 2nd, and proposed 3rd files have all been renamed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively.

[XMuppetSB]

Okay, now I am literally lost! I have looked everywhere in level 9 and I simply cannot find the silver arrow!

[Matthew Bluefox]

@ Pokergamer: Why was that? How are we supposed to find out all the secrets then? There is no guide, no walkthrough, nuffin at all! The editor was the purrfect way to see everything.

[Nicholas Steel]

By PLAYING IT you can find out the secrets yourself or making a thread in the Quest Descussion section you can find out from the guys that made it!

[XMuppetSB]

@ Pokergamer: Why was that? How are we supposed to find out all the secrets then? There is no guide, no walkthrough, nuffin at all! The editor was the purrfect way to see everything.

But the problem is, all 4 of the official quests have passwords... And I don't think anybody would be willing to give out those passwords!
PS: Franpa, we could also try sending a PM to QuestWizard, since he made the dungeons. In fact, I've already sent a PM to him, and I sent a PM to _L_ since he played through all of the 4th quest submissions.

[_L_]

This is likely to be one of the most punishing puzzles in this quest, so what the hey: Here is the location of the silver arrows. (http://l.j-factor.com/zeldaclassic/fourth/silverarrows.png)

(P.S: I didn't do it.)

[XMuppetSB]

So, the silver arrows are in level 8, huh? It's no wonder I'd been having trouble finding them! Because in previous quests, the silver arrow was in level 9.

[_L_]

I think the "intention" is that since it is clear that Level 9 already contains 2 items (Magic Key, Red Ring) then the player should reach the conclusion that it doesn't contain a third item.

[Matthew Bluefox]

Yes, the original quests have passwords, butt earlier in the builds, the first, second and third quest had a proposed version with no passwords ... and now all of a sudden they're gone? I don't think it's because they didn't want the public to know the secrets. Maybe it just got forgotten, I don't know.

As for the fourth quest, Franpa: I'm a quest maker myself (Zelda 1.5) and I enjoy playing other good quests, butt it's just to make sure not to get stuck sumwhere and spending useless hours just to find out afterwards I had missed to bomb a wall sumwhere. That's just it. :)

Matt

[Questwizard88]

On screen 53, you need to walk through the south wall. It'll lead to a room with stairs that'll take you to that part of the dungeon. After that, just work through each room and have a bomb or two ready to get further in when you hit a dead-end.

[XMuppetSB]

On screen 53, you need to walk through the south wall. It'll lead to a room with stairs that'll take you to that part of the dungeon. Once through, just work through each room and you'll eventually hit the map room. You'll need a bomb on screen 31 to go further in.

Never mind... I found it...

[XMuppetSB]

Well, I beat the 4th quest! I must admit, some of those enemies and bosses were a bit tougher. I mean, the Aquamentus (which was dark red instead of green) and the Gohma (which only came in red) had more HP for one thing. Also, there were several blue, dark red, and even level color Moldorms, that had more HP and segments, were faster, and did more damage. And the hardest dungeon was level 6, because of the powerful L3 enemies with potentially higher HP, including the L3 (Level Color) Goriya, which was fast and did not have a homing boomerang, the L3 (Level Color) Stalfos, which was faster than the L2 variety, but only threw 1 sword that does a damage of 4 hearts, and of course the most annoying oif them all, the L3 (Blue) Rope, which was fast, and took 5 hits with the magic Sword to kill. I also noticed that the Gel Tribbles and Zol Tribbles were changed so it could be told apart from the normal varieties. The L2 Stalfos was also changed to blue so it could be told apart from the L1 variety. The Vire Tribble was changed to red, though it could have still been told apart from the normal variety if it were still level color. Oddly enough, every level color Keese is tribble. Last but not least, it took 16 hit with the Magic Sword just to stun Ganon! Talk about making the battle against Ganon even harder! But nonetheless, I'm glad I beat this very difficult quest. It was rather puzzling and mind boggling compared to the other three official quests.

[_L_]

It's kind of a mystery why L6 and only L6 has all those unnaturally buffed foes... but personally I thought they weren't very troublesome threats compared to the unchanged Darknuts and Wizzrobes.

[Questwizard88]

I tried to not make them too hard, while trying to make things a bit more of a challenge there. Since the palette required ropes, I figured I'd beef them up a bit and see how it played. By then, L2 ropes just aren't a serious threat anymore.

[XMuppetSB]

Sorry to bump this, but does anybody know where the 16th heart container in the 4th quest is?