Unthinkable - Hamas uses boys school for defense while bombing Israel soldiers.

[ShadowTiger]

The Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sznMP3dnCg&feature=PlayList&p=24B346594DCE3F37&index=5) - Hamas uses an Elementary School for boys as cover to bomb Israeli Soldiers.

Israeli soldiers are then criticized by the tabloids for responding in self-defense due to splash damage.



*sigh*

[Beldaran]

Hamas should just be exterminated.

[Anthus]

See, all this conflict could be solved if we dropped an H. bomb and made a few craters.

[Breaker]

See, all this conflict could be solved if we dropped an H. bomb and made a few craters.

right, because killing innocent people is fun.

[rock_nog]

The extremists on both sides certainly seem to think that killing innocents is fun. Frankly, I'm sick of caring about Israel/Palestine. I've seen too many atrocities on both sides to say that either side is right.

[Beldaran]

Well, since I haven't abdicated my moral compass, I'll come down firmly on the side of Israel. They should exterminate Hamas.

[ShadowTiger]

There is an image out there on the internet somewhere with two baby carriages, and an Israeli and Hamas soldier firing at each other. The Israel Soldier is in front of the baby carriage, defending it, and the Hamas soldier is behind the carriage, firing at the Israeli, using it as a meat shield.

Israel doesn't have any extremists. Even if you could say that they did, the only thing "extreme" about them is that they are "extremely naive." They still think there can be peace with the people who still believe in a holy war against others, in addition to regular war. Crusades much? Asking Hamas for Peace is like the mouse asking the snake for peace. The snake thinks the mouse is a religious infidel and must be eaten and squashed at all costs to satisfy their long-lasting traditions. Damned be these snakes in the sand.

[firebug]

Yeah. I don't know what side to be on here. I know that a lot of people think this is a holy war, and in a sense it is, because it's being fought by religious extremists. But in reality, it's a land war. When the Jews settled there, they literally deported all of the people that were living there at the time. Israel was to be a Hebrew Nation exclusively.

So I can understand why these people are pissed. If I was forced out of my homeland, I'd be mighty pissed off too.

What Israel doesn't understand, is that they're not fighting a war. They're fighting a bunch of individuals. It's like us in Viet Nam. We knew we were fighting the Viet Cong, but who were they? Just regular people (mostly farmers) who held extreme political views and were being given weapons and ammunition from both North Korea and the USSR. This is why there were so many 'civilian' casualties. Since we were fighting civilians, every village was a potential VC 'compound'.

Hamas is the same thing. These people aren't soldiers. They're regular people with extremist religious views throwing rocks at Jews and firing homemade rockets over the border. And Israel is bombing the shit out of them, using chemical warfare and just generally acting like a big brother kicking the shit out of his annoying little brother who just wont stop fucking with him.

I think Israel is handling this wrong. What the Gaza Strip and the West Bank need is better policing. Again, Hamas is a group of civilian criminals with extremist views. No different than the Charles Manson Family or The Mob (Just with different viewpoints and goals). And how do you deal with a group of civilian criminals who have started shooting bombs out of schools? You get your police in there and you try your damndest to neutralize the situation and save as many of those schoolchildren as possible. You don't firebomb the school.

So again, What the Gaza Strip and the West Bank need is better police. If the Palestinian Authority won't take care of their criminals, then Israel needs to get their ass in there and do it themselves. Acting as a POLICE force.

So yeah, I feel for their basic complaint, but Hamas are being real douchebags and deserve to be exterminated. On the other hand, Israel needs to just deal with each situation responsibly and not bomb the shit out of their neighbors, who are basically living in the third world. It would be like if someone threw a couple of homemade rockets over the border of Mexico into the US, and we just nuked the shit out of 'wherever those rockets came from', irregardless if the rocket-shooter was even there any more, or if the area contained a shitload of small children and innocent civilians. Israel is a First-World Country, and they need to start acting like it.

[Beldaran]

Again, Hamas is a group of civilian criminals with extremist views.

Actually, you are completely and utterly wrong. Hamas is the elected, ruling government of Gaza. They attacked Israel. Israel defended itself against a sovereign foreign government.

How do you think a country should respond if a neighboring country is lobbing rockets into their neighborhoods? Diplomacy? Israel has tried that literally for years.

Israel is a well developed, capitalist society that supports women's rights, human rights, democracy, and decency. Hamas is a elected, ruling terrorist regime that openly proclaims that its goal is kill everyone in Israel so that it will cease to exist.

[firebug]

Actually, you are completely and utterly wrong. Hamas is the elected, ruling government of Gaza.

I understand that. But the people lobbing rockets from schools aren't backed by Hamas. In fact, Hamas says that Israel is lying and that the attacks don't come from these places. You and I know that's utter bullshit, and if Hamas was elected legitimately, those people need to seriously look at the decisions they've made and the consequences of them. The people in the Palestinian Authority may have elected Hamas as their ruling party, but it's their (Hamas) first time actually running a country, and before that they were considered a terrorist organization (which they obviously are). The people lobbing the rockets aren't elected officials. That's like saying; 'The United States is controlled by elected Democrats. Therefore, individuals who commit terrorist acts and call themselves Democrats are acting on behalf of the United States.'

It is different, because Democrats don't consider someone else's land their own and hold it a principle to take that land back, but the analogy is accurate.

Individuals committed these atrocities and they need to be put to justice. Civilians shouldn't be killed indiscriminately because of the actions of a few douche bags.

[Beldaran]

Civilians shouldn't be killed indiscriminately because of the actions of a few douche bags.

I agree, which is why Hamas needs to be exterminated, whatever the cost, so they'll stop doing that.

[firebug]

Hamas are being real douche bags and deserve to be exterminated.

Uh-huh.

[rock_nog]

If Hamas is wiped out, another extremist group will take their place. As long as their are Israelis and Palestinians, Israelis and Palestinians will keep on killing each other.

[Beldaran]

There will always be bullies. They always deserved to be punched, even if another one will eventually take their place. There is no excuse to just let your neighbor kidnap your people and shoot rockets at you. It can't be tolerated.

[firebug]

If Hamas is wiped out, another extremist group will take their place. As long as their are Israelis and Palestinians, Israelis and Palestinians will keep on killing each other.

There will always be problems. Humans are good at not liking each other. The key is in how you address those problems. There will always be serial killers as well, does that mean the police should just stop investigating murders? Hell no.

Besides, if we didn't have terrorists and criminals in general we'd be living in a Utopian society. Life just isn't that rosy.

[ShadowTiger]

Interjection to post something that repeatedly finds its way into my E-mail inbox. But first, an image.



http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/political-pictures-protest-dont.jpg




There is a well known phrase in the middle east, and on E-mails in every Jew's inbox:

If Islam put down their weapons, there would be no war.
If Israel put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.




I got this from an article by Benjamin Netanyahu.

It's our land
By: Benjamin Netanyahu

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave an interview and was asked about Israel's occupation of Arab lands.

His response was "It's our land".

The reporter (CNN or the like) was stunned - Read below "It's our land..." It's important information since we don't get fair and accurate reporting from the media and the true facts tend to get lost.

"Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict." Here are overlooked facts in the current Middle East situation. These were compiled by a Christian university professor:

BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY

It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew -- it doesn't matter.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades AFTER the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10 The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey .

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and
Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990,
429 were directed against Israel.

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

[Trevelyan_06]

The only extreme thing about Israeli is their dedication to never seeing the holocaust repeated.

[Masamune]

Don't forget to mention that Israel did some fucked up shit too. After the land was taken from the Palestinians, and Israel was founded, many Palestinians became displaced and were like "where the fuck do we go now?"

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/6820ACDE-FD3F-4583-9963-28CA13BA376C/0/MFAG007y0.gif

The result of the partition plan resulted in Jews getting most of the land, and separating the Arab land from eachother. The Arabs this applied to could either apply for Isreali citizenship (which they were promised if they wanted it) or move the fuck out. Despite this promise, many Arabs who applied for citizenship, were taken to jail, and dumped out into Lebanon. So Jews are going, "yay, land that was promised to us over 2000 fucking years ago by people who no longer exist," and Arabs are going, "What the fuck, my home was taken from me,"


Now I agree that both parties should just live peacefully together, and the Arabs should knock it off. But originally, the Arabs were royally fucked by the UN.

[ShadowTiger]

Civilians rarely benefit from wars which occurred out of their hands, particularly when they're on the front lines, or nearby.


What I'm trying to look for now, is the source of the Six-Day War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Days_War). I've heard opposing things from both sides, obviously.

[Aegix Drakan]

*depressed sigh*

whoop de do, big surprise. Hamas is a terrosist group. they don't have the sophisticated tanks and stuff Israel does. but they are craaaazy about winning the war, so they fight in the only way possible to not get wiped out; By hiding like cowards behind innocents.


but seriously, it doesn't matter who started the war, or who is in the right. The war there will NEVER END. Not unless one of the two sides is wiped off the face of the earth.

First off, both sides claim that area to be THEIR land. That's already a big problem, since if multiple (completely different) cultures are trying to live in the same small country, there is BOUND to be some conflict.

Second, both sides have taken so many lives in this retarded war that it goes like this: "Your unlce killed my uncle, so I must kill you!" "But your uncle killed MY brother, so I have to kill YOU!" "BUT YOUR BROTHER KILLED MY LITTE SISTER, SO I-"...Repeat ad nauseum. Too much blood has spilled. almost everyone knows someone who killed a relative, who killed a relative, who killed a friend... Both sides have a LOT of anger and desire for revenge bottled up.

And thirdly....Let me tell you something my Dad told me. He ran a plastic injection moulding shop for a while, and one of his employees was a hardcore suporter of Israel. The man told my dad that his brother in law ran a bullet factory down there, and due to the war he'd gone form working 5 days a week, one shift, to having the place running 24-7, and was making a bundle. Bottom line? A lot of bunisnesses on BOTH SIDES are making a lot of money selling weapons. They DO NOT want the war to end. I'm pretty damn sure that more than one cease fire was broken by some crooked businessman giving a 50$ american bill to a hamas soldier, whispering "You fire a few rockets over the border, and I got more for you!".


Seriously, the war there is hopeless, IMO. I don't even CARE who's right or wrong anymore. All I know is that unless some MASSIVE international action is taken in some way or another, the war will go on forever, or at least until one side is just a pile of corpses. Personally, I hope hamas goes down, for the sole fact that it does shit like seen in the video. You DO NOT involve innocent civilians in your stupid retarded turf wars.

[rock_nog]

Ugh... See, my problem is, you can play the blame game back and forth all the way to the creation of Israel back in 1948 (which I personally consider an unfortunate mistake of history). At some point, someone's just gonna have to say "I care more about peace than revenge," or bloodshed will occur indefinitely.

[Aegix Drakan]

At some point, someone's just gonna have to say "I care more about peace than revenge,"

Someone IS saying it. More than one person is. But they're drowned out by the million and one other people jumping around screaming "WE WANT VENGEANE! WE WANT VENGEANCE!!!!"

[Anthus]

If Hamas is wiped out, another extremist group will take their place. As long as their are Israelis and Palestinians, Israelis and Palestinians will keep on killing each other.

Well, if they keep killing each other, maybe one day we can have a world where they have wiped each other out.

This is why imaginary friends should stop being socially acceptable past the age of eight.

[Beldaran]

the creation of Israel back in 1948 (which I personally consider an unfortunate mistake of history).

Yeah how unfortunate that there is one single country in that entire region that is a successful capitalist democracy that respects women's rights, individual liberties, education, and has turned their patch of desert into a powerful economy while their neighbors languish in religious hatred and medieval poverty created by their own philosophical backwardness.

I mean, seriously what a tragedy. It would be so much better if that land were controlled by the Palestinians and their impoverished, intellectually dead nation was slightly larger.

[ShadowTiger]

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I know it's not right to ask, but if you had a choice about who would win the war, who would you rather see flood the area? The Islam of today, or the Israelis of today? Are we 100% sure that after this conflict is somehow resolved, the Israelis or the others won't suddenly reach out and attack the neighboring countries who aren't of the same faith and value system and make some claim that the tabloids will suddenly start to support due to money issues?


We all need to start reading more than one source of coverage about this. There isn't one single source that isn't biased one way or the other. I personally read the Jewish Star. (Hell, I would. I'm Jewish. :p ) and I spoke to some girl who came from the UK as a transfer student about the crisis, and she was completely against Israel due to tragedies committed against humanity, (In other words, humanity being Everyone but Israel.) and continually returned to that point regardless of what I said. It's going to happen; people will take sides, and just won't change their minds or look at other facts or opinions.

[rock_nog]

Who would I rather see flood the area? I can't stand the thought of either side being exterminated - how am I supposed to have an opinion here? I can't just look at one side and say "Your culture is inferior, you deserve less to be allowed to live." It's all just sheer bloody madness, which is something I think most people aren't comfortable with - we need good guys and bad guys, we need to feel like there's a right and wrong side to this.

And while I do believe there is a right and a wrong side to this conflict, unfortunately, it's not as simple as people like - it doesn't follow neat political lines like we always think it should. There are people who want peace, and there are people who want war. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether you're an Israeli or a Palestinian. There are Palestinians who want peace, and there are Israelis who want war, and vice versa. Ultimately, this is why I do not take sides - I am on the side of anyone, regardless of culture, who supports peace. I am against all of those who want war.

[Beldaran]

I am on the side of anyone, regardless of culture, who supports peace. I am against all of those who want war.

So you're for Neville Chamberlain, but against Winston Churchill.

“We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will. I cannot believe that such a program would be rejected by the people of this country, even if it does mean the establishment of personal contact with the dictators.” - Neville Chamberlain

[rock_nog]

Are you saying that the Palestinians should fight?

[Beldaran]

I think the Palestinians should treat their neighbors with respect and humanity. Since they won't, I think Israel should exterminate them like roaches.

[ShadowTiger]

I'm still having a lot of trouble seeing the non-Israeli Middle Eastern people as being capable of peace. At least concerning the events surrounding the people who are the extremists, anyway. I know there are civilians involved, yes, and they're "innocent," but really, how innocent can people be if they're taught from an early age to hate other nations? How is that so easily forgettable?


The way I see it, it's like that scene from Indiana Jones - Crystal Skull, with the field of ants. You can't reason with them. It's just a flood of constantly biting, nibbling, eating, flowing, dissolving death, (Death to all infidels.) who will stop at nothing to achieve the apparent religious necessities. No matter how much the Jews cede to their enemies in order to persuade a sense of peace to the air around them, they will always want more, and more, and more. It will never, ever stop. I'm astonished Israel is still trying for any semblance of peace, even after the static trends they've already been through year after year.



Are you saying that the Palestinians should fight?Israel is already having to defend themselves from some sort of fight.


Even after everything else said here, I still can't believe someone said Israel's creation was a mistake. Okay, you know I'm a generally nice person, and would stop at nothing to make people smile, but wow, you just punched me in the Matzo-balls, yo.

[rock_nog]

What do you want me to say? That 60 years of bloodshed was totally worth it? It's nothing against anyone, I just can't justify all the pain and suffering that it has created. And for what? Over some ancient religion?

Regarding the Palestinians, in their minds, they're acting out of self-defense. I'm not saying that it's right, obviously, but you have to understand that if you ever have any hope of reaching some sort of resolution that doesn't result in genocide.

[ShadowTiger]

How was 9/11 self-defense? At the VERY Least, the masterminds behind that are one source of mayhem that I'm sure none of us would mind eliminating. There's self-defense, and then there's self-defense as a cover up for world-scale offense. They've spread into the neighboring countries, and are destroying it from within. Where are the protests from their countries' people? France? Britain? They're still in support of the immigrants from that region even after the violence.

[Beldaran]

Regarding the Palestinians, in their minds, they're acting out of self-defense.

Not to godwin this to hell, but the Nazis made the same claim.

It is 100% irrelevant whether they think they need to shoot rockets into neighborhoods in self defense. If they do it, they should be completely eliminated.

I bet if some right wing christians were shooting rockets into your neighborhood, you'd be a little less philosophical about the need for peace.

[ShadowTiger]

IMHO, it's not even an Ad-Hominem in the practical sense if it genuinely makes you consider the reality of the potential situation. I wouldn't mind going vigilante as a / the final solution to such a dilemma.


Imagine someone walks up to you with a pencil. He stabs you in the neck and tells you to die; to stop stealing his oxygen, because he was near that place first. You can't even grab the pencil because it's the only pencil he has, and he's too damned poor to get another pencil. That poor bully and his pencil without his oxygen. Whatever are you going to do? :shakeno: You've got no oxygen, you've somehow made an enemy, and there's a pencil stuck in your neck, and people sympathize with the bully for having his oxygen stolen.

Doesn't everyone have a right to oxygen? Particularly if two people start to fight over oxygen, and someone wins? What right do they have to come crawling back to demand that oxygen when they started the fight for it in the first place and lost?

My god that is a fucked up analogy.

[rock_nog]

I just can't see the logic of "Well, some Palestinians attacked us, so all Palestinians deserve to die, regardless of their personal beliefs."

There are Palestinians who support peace and oppose this violence. That's all I'm saying.

[ShadowTiger]

Yes, there are. All humans are individuals, and are capable of independent thought. Then you have those individuals who are trained from birth to be raw, hating, fighting machines. (You've seen those videos of the kids being given real guns and trained to fight, right?) Those are obviously who we're referring to. As it was mentioned before, the Israelis are just as opposed to violence and death of civilians as you are wishing anyone would be, but when you're attacked, you have to attack back, or else you just get steamrolled over.

Many different kinds of self-defense here, apparently. One is the "You poke me I block your poke." Another is the "We're being surrounded by enemies and they all want us to leave, but we want to live and not abandon our new country. Hey, let's fight back for our own lives, yes?" It's more like a siege than a mass offensive. Very, very big difference. Mass offensives make for terrible self-defense. That's just another word for genocide. Compared to a siege, well, ...

[rock_nog]

My issue here is that you seem to be saying that all Muslims are exactly alike and equally deserving to die. Obviously there are some who want nothing but to cause death and destruction, and killing them may be the only solution. But I don't think it's fair to say they're all exactly the same.

And I never said Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself.

[Beldaran]

Hamas hides behind civilians. To kill Hamas, you have to kill civilians. The blood of the civilians is on the hands of Hamas.

Those people are being killed by the hatred and cowardice of their elected leaders, not by Israeli munitions.

[rock_nog]

All we can hope is that eventually the civilians will see that. I mean, when I've been talking about peace and whatnot, I've been primarily talking about the Palestinians, though it seems people assumed I meant the Israelis. My apologies - I could've been more clear on that. Because I think, despite my cynicism, that if the civilians can be made to see that Hamas is using them, and that if they lay down their arms Israel will not take the opportunity to crush them, there may be peace.

[Aegix Drakan]

if the civilians can be made to see that Hamas is using them, and that if they lay down their arms Israel will not take the opportunity to crush them, there may be peace.

Yeah, but the problem is, their superiors and peers keep on telling them from a young age that Israel is evil and infidel and needs to be annahilated. That and the civilians who DO know Hamas is using them are too scared to resist, thinking that they'll be killed if they say anything or resist at all.

The only "bad guys" here are Hamas. Not the isrealis, and not the palestinians either. Just the douchtards using them to wage a pointless war.



Although, I feel I need to make an observation. Is it just me, or is Islam MUCH more demanding than any other religious group? Ok, Christianity had the spanish inquisition and the crusades, but it evolved (lol) past that point. But I've heard a lot of recent/semi-recent stories about islam in general.

From what I've gathered through a few humanities, classes, listening to the radio, and the internet, they constantly take offense and make demands of other cultures.

[Beldaran]

Muslims are lying, conquering, murderous fucks that humanity could do without.

[rock_nog]

Y'know, I don't know, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it has to do with power. You know, you keep the masses distracted with fanatical devotion and constant scapegoating. Certainly that was the case in medieval Europe with Christianity - life was shitty, but the powers-that-be discovered that they could use religion to keep the people distracted enough to prevent any social upheaval.

Look at Iran, for instance, where it seems that the leaders' denouncement of the west and Israel is in proportion to an ever-growing youth movement that wants to rebel against the current theocratic establishment. They keep the people in fear of us in order to limit the risk of having an outright rebellion. You know, "Do as we say or the US will sense our weakness and destroy us all."

[Aegix Drakan]

Oh don't bring Iran into this...

Any country where the penalty for BEING raped is death needs to have a POSITIVE revolution asap.

[Trevelyan_06]

Although, I feel I need to make an observation. Is it just me, or is Islam MUCH more demanding than any other religious group?


I think it's more along the lines that Islam has that 10% of us are batshit crazy problem just like every other religion. The problem with Islam is the fact that their 10% happens to run countries.


And before Bel says anything. By batshit crazy I mean, "Hey lets go kill people for wearing their hat in the wrong way", and not the more mundane, "Hey we believe in a magical sky daddy" crazy.

[rock_nog]

Yes, well, being that belief in a magical sky daddy is inherently irrational, one could argue that it facilitates the existence of other irrational beliefs, such as killing a dude for wearing his hat the wrong way. I think most religions have at least a few rules that make absolutely no sense outside of "Magical sky daddy said so." Not that everyone takes it to that extreme, obviously, but I can see how "magical sky daddy" could be a "gateway" belief.

[ShadowTiger]

I.e. religions/cultures of the old Southern America who would sacrifice people to their gods by cutting out their heart, pretty much as a thank you for anything at all.

[rock_nog]

Ah, but that most definitely had a purpose - it was friggin' badass, and it scared the living shit out of anyone who might dare oppose them. Though in the end, they ended up getting out-badassed when the Spanish showed up with their guns and their plagues and their dude who looked like a god.

[ShadowTiger]

I wasn't actually even trying to make a point with that last post. I'm getting easily distracted now. For example This (http://media.fukung.net/images/5190/peacebomb.jpg) is one solution. To anything, I suppose. :goofy:

[Beldaran]

I think pornography is an excellent weapon against extremist islam. If you can convince teenagers and young men that a beautiful set of quivering breasts, erect nipples, and shapely legs is more desirable than death by suicide, then maybe they will start to really look at their options and start imagining a different life.

[rock_nog]

That's the problem with suicide bombers. Terror groups tend to pick people who have no other options for that particular role. People who are terminally ill, people who are desperately struggling to support their families, people in abject poverty who have no hope of making anything of their lives... These are the people they recruit for suicide bombings, because they know these people have nothing to look forward to. And in addition to all that, there are the horror stories of young men and women being raped in order to encourage them to go blow themselves up. The whole thing is insane.

[Manwich]

there is a reason we the US of A support isreal. we are acting as God's hand to keep at bay those who would dare to hurt his chosen people. i'm just afraid the government is about to jump over to the towelhead's side now that barack oSama is elected (i still don't want to call him the President).

[ShadowTiger]

I used to think that too, because the people he was intending on hiring as staff were based on a very anti-Israel opinion base. However, they'll always need Israel there as a friendly landing strip, as Israel seems to keep the most sanity and sense around themselves, at least diplomatically. You're safer in Israel than in all of the neighboring regions, even in the worst of times.

[firebug]

I'm still having a lot of trouble seeing the non-Israeli Middle Eastern people as being capable of peace. At least concerning the events surrounding the people who are the extremists, anyway. I know there are civilians involved, yes, and they're "innocent," but really, how innocent can people be if they're taught from an early age to hate other nations? How is that so easily forgettable?
Young Jews in Israel are taught the same hatred values. Check out some of the videos on YouTube of Arab families living within Israel. It's quite frightening.


Even after everything else said here, I still can't believe someone said Israel's creation was a mistake. Okay, you know I'm a generally nice person, and would stop at nothing to make people smile, but wow, you just punched me in the Matzo-balls, yo. No offense to you, (you're one of the nicest people on these boards, and I totally respect you) but I agree that the creation of Israel as a Jewish state was a mistake. The repercussions of that act have been horrendous.

The people who lived there had no choice about the matter. All of a sudden, there was a large UN-sanctioned immigration of Jewish people from Europe into their home and they couldn't do anything about it. In fact, the only reason that it was legal was because Britain owned the area (Palestine), as a part of their dying empire. So instead of giving the land back to the people who lived there when they stole it, they sent a bunch of Europeans to colonize it completely. Muslims really had no choice but to leave. First off, there simply wasn't enough land for them all. The Arabs who lived there were farmers. If you've ever been to a farm, you'll see how much land you need for just one farm. Israel was not to be a 'farming' nation. Right from the start they were given access to resources that the Arabs in that area never were. The choice given to them to become Israeli citizens is a joke. If you are not Jewish in Israel, your citizenship means nothing. In fact, it is illegal to even speak about your religion openly if you are not Jewish (something about trying to convert Jews).


BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY

It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew -- it doesn't matter. In fact, it is very slanted.


1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
This is simply not true. Many Jews, led by Moses, entered the land after their exodus from Egypt, and proclaimed the land as their own, irregardless of who was already living there.


2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades AFTER the establishment of the modern State of Israel. I'm not sure where this guy got his information, but anyone who knows their history is aware that before Israel was a state of it's own, that land was a part of the British Mandate of Palestine (a British Protectorate).


4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years. There's some more false history. The Ottoman Empire owned the area from 1299–1923, right before WW1.


6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. What? Is this guy for real? The entire Koran is riddled with Old-Testament Books. Shit, even the Torah is in there, which are Moses' books. Is there really nothing about Jerusalem in any of Moses' books?


8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem. Again with the gross misrepresentations. Muslims pray facing Mecca. The direction they pray has absolutely nothing to do with Jerusalem (turning their backs to it or otherwise), and depending on where you are in the world, you may also be praying towards Jerusalem.


9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
I don't know about this, but if people came to me and said: 'We're about to kill a bunch of your neighbors, and you have the chance to get the fuck out right now,' I'd probably leave too (although I'd pass the info on to my neighbors so they too could get the fuck out before they were killed).


11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same. So what? Israel was created because of the European persecution of Jews during WW2. So for every Arab that left Israel, there was a Jew from Arab lands to take his place. Well what about the boatloads of European Jewish immigrants into Israel?


12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey. If this is true, it is extremely unfortunate and gives those people even more reason to be angry. the bit about Jewish refugees being absorbed into Israel is ridiculous. Israel wasn't even a nation until those refugees showed up, and it was to be a Jewish nation anyways.


14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them. Yes, their charter calls for the destruction of Israel. They're some pretty pissed off douche bags.
The West Bank wasn't even a part of Israel until they took it from Jordan. Jordan annexed it from The British Mandate of Palestine.
Britain stole it from the Ottoman Empire. So yes, they gave it back to the people who rightfully owned it (the Arabs who lived there). But their supplies don't come from Israel alone. They come from Egypt, Jordan, and Israel. Except Israel has them basically land-locked and allows them supplies only when they're being 'good' (so to punish the individual terrorists, they deny a whole nation of people food, fuel and other necessary supplies).


16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel. I'm not sure how this helps his point, basic math tells us 97+97=194, which is more than 175. So... Israel was wrong more than half of the time according to the UN?


17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel. Well, since the General Assembly is a part of the UN, These numbers once again do not help his point.


18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. Ahhhh, I see now. This guy wants us to think the UN is a part of some anti-Israeli Conspiracy. I don't know about that. I think the UN judges Israel on their Human Rights Violations as much as they would any First-World nation. Not that Human Rights Violations aren't just as bad in Third-World countries.
And about Jordan, They weren't even a part of the UN until 2007. I don't think the UN is allowed to really do anything in countries that aren't a part of the organization.

A few of this guy's points were valid, but the vast majority of them are either outright lies or extremely slanted Anti-Arab sentiments. This is not surprising coming from an Israeli. There is a large amount of Arab-based racism on the part of Israelis these days. You can't really blame them, but you'd think the Jews in particular would understand the dangers of racism, and passing it on to your children.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-ANYONE in this involvement, but I really think that people really need to look at both sides of the situation without bias. I mean, what is really going on in this war?

If you look at it from a completely outside position, What you'll see is a Third-World country (The Palestinian Authority) with individual crazies within, attacking a First-World country (Israel) and doing little actual harm in the process. The First-World country then firebombs, uses chemical warfare, and refuses supplies to the entire Third-World country. In turn, the crazies within that country get even angrier, and continue to attack the First-World country with little effect, but even more damage to themselves.

This is fucked up. No matter what arguments you use on either side. My personal belief is that HAMAS should be exterminated because of the racism they stand for. But I do not condone any of Israel's actions. I refer to my original analogy:

Israel is acting like a big brother kicking the shit out of his annoying little brother who just wont stop fucking with him.