Warming Shmorming

[Beldaran]

Ooops (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/11/16/do1610.xml), NASA doesn't know jack ass about the climate.

[rock_nog]

Errors happen in science all the time. Let us not damn an entire field of research because of a single error. Remember the Eddington solar eclipse observation, designed to test Einstein's General Theory of Relativity? A team of scientists set out to test the theory by measuring star positions during a total eclipse to see if the gravitational field of the sun bent light as predicted by Einstein. The initial observations confirmed Einstein's theory, but it was later determined that systematic errors plagued the data, and it wasn't until the late 60s that the test was later successfully demonstrated by new technology that allowed for more accurate measurements of star positions.

[Pryme8]

so basically the flux between summer and winter are getting more extreme?

does this mean we are gonna have a super shitty winter?

[Breaker]

ive noticed this winter in florida being extremely colder than i can ever remember, and ive lived here most my life. being born in colorado and growing up in the snow, i know what cold is, so to say florida is cold is asking me to be smacked in the face, but it's gradually getting colder every year. the summers are also getting hotter.

i've lost all respect in NASA though. that and every article i read that mentions al gore or global warming, i immediately close out of. ive killed enough of my own brain cells in other pursuits of "figuring out life", and one of the things ive learned is that the bullshit and people caught up in global warming are to be ignored at all costs.

[Anthus]

I wonder if anyone has ever once considered that global warning is majorly natural? Humans are responsible for less than 10% of CO2 emissions. Volcanos and Algae release waaaaaaaay more than we could ever fantasize about releasing.

Remember the ice age? Maybe it is just a massive scale seasonal change? Either way, there isn't any thing anyone can do about it, so whatever.

[Chris Miller]

If we do contribute to our climate, it's an infinitesimal amount. The hottest summer I experienced was over fifteen years ago. It was over 110 degrees for about a week during July. It hit 35 two nights ago, something that hasn't happened for a number of years.

[Breaker]

I wonder if anyone has ever once considered that global warning is majorly natural

ding. that would take people to realize they themselves are a natural living organism of this planet, just like many others that have lived and been wiped out to exinction before us. meanwhile the planet itself is older than we can even imagine. to think we're even capable of "destroying" it is arrogant. we're really only caught up in our own self preservation, not the planet. unfortunately you have eco exremist nuts caught up more in the planet's "survival" than humanity. they need to be sent to concentration camps with the emos.

[Saffith]

If one's personal experience were a reliable indicator of reality, we wouldn't need science in the first place.

[phattonez]

I wonder if anyone has ever once considered that global warning is majorly natural? Humans are responsible for less than 10% of CO2 emissions. Volcanos and Algae release waaaaaaaay more than we could ever fantasize about releasing.

Remember the ice age? Maybe it is just a massive scale seasonal change? Either way, there isn't any thing anyone can do about it, so whatever.
We've realized it for the hole in the ozone layer, just for some reason we ignore that for global warming. How else will environmentalists scare us?

[Modus Ponens]

Look, if we go on assuming that we can't possibly do anything to harm the planet, we may end up harming it. Meanwhile, scientific evidence suggests that we might be the cause of global warming. If we take measures to lessen our impact on global climate change, and it turns out we were wrong about the whole thing, well, then, we were overly cautious. However, if we're right...

Lenny... you will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters.

[Russ]

Can't say I'm surprised. I never believed in Global Warming from the start. Earth's temperature rises and falls naturally. Nothing we can do will stop it. It will get warm, then it will get cold. It's natural.

[Breaker]

Look, if we go on assuming that we can't possibly do anything to harm the planet, we may end up harming it. Meanwhile, scientific evidence suggests that we might be the cause of global warming. If we take measures to lessen our impact on global climate change, and it turns out we were wrong about the whole thing, well, then, we were overly cautious. However, if we're right...

Lenny... you will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters.

global warming is another one of those things where if you stick 10 of the brightest people in the world in a room together to solve it, you'll find 10 different solutions and 100 arguements proving eachother wrong. every one of them means well, but there isn't a perfect solution, and it's being used by selfish politicians that just want to paste their face on a "good cause" to further their own ambitions. *cough* al gore *cough*. it's also a very profitable "charity". like aids, cancer, etc. sooner or later in the "real world" outside of the internet you have to decide the person you want to be and will one day make a conscious decision that will by consequence or choice destroy the life of another. learning to accept how grey the world is, is by far, more self improving than trying to decide if global warming is real or not.

[Revfan9]

Can't say I'm surprised. I never believed in Global Warming from the start. Earth's temperature rises and falls naturally. Nothing we can do will stop it. It will get warm, then it will get cold. It's natural.

But what about the cute little polar bears!?

[Beldaran]

Can't say I'm surprised. I never believed in Global Warming from the start. Earth's temperature rises and falls naturally. Nothing we can do will stop it. It will get warm, then it will get cold. It's natural.

Oh, so all of a sudden you're Mr. Skepticism. :rolleyes:

[Russ]

Oh, so all of a sudden you're Mr. Skepticism. :rolleyes:
It's not so much skepticism as it is viewpoint. I look at the world, and to me, it seems like somebody had to have created it, and that somebody had to have put measures in place to maintain it.

[Breaker]

It's not so much skepticism as it is viewpoint. I look at the world, and to me, it seems like somebody had to have created it, and that somebody had to have put measures in place to maintain it.

i can see why beldaran fucks with you, and by association religion, so much. you're so malleable. isn't it depressing that your beliefs were written by people hundreds and hundreds of years ago? that others have killed, hung, and regressed humanity with the same set of ideals read and naively accepted from an ancient book? it's very easy to hate religious people. they're dangerous.

[Russ]

I can see you logic there. However, if you look at all those groups, and look at the Bible, you can clearly see that they ignored certain parts and choose to obey only the parts they wanted.

But no, I don't find it depressing that they were written down so long ago. They were written people from every social group. Kings, Roman citizens, farmers, leaders, fishermen. It's stood the test of time. Christianity started as a belief punishible by death, and now is the world's largest religion. That alone says something about it.

But we've let Beldaran pull us off track again. :rolleyes:

[Beldaran]

they ignored certain parts and choose to obey only the parts they wanted.

Sort of like how you are opposed to gay marriage, but you don't want to be stoned to death for going to work on a Sunday.

[Russ]

The Bible says "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." That just means do some sort of prayer or something. If you pray and then go to work, you've kept it holy.

[Shazza Dani]

The Bible says "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." That just means do some sort of prayer or something. If you pray and then go to work, you've kept it holy.

That's not what it means. And there's still plenty of rules in the bible that people choose to ignore.

[Beldaran]

The Bible says "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." That just means do some sort of prayer or something. If you pray and then go to work, you've kept it holy.

Exodus 35:2:
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

You might consider actually reading this bible of yours.

[Russ]

I'm not quite where it is, but I am pretty sure that somewhere in the Ne Testament, Jesus abolished most of the Old Testament laws because they were no longer needed, or something to that sort. I'll find it later.

[Shazza Dani]

i think jesus is a pretty cool guy. eh abolished teh old testament and doesnt afraid of anything

[Beldaran]

I'm not quite where it is, but I am pretty sure that somewhere in the Ne Testament, Jesus abolished most of the Old Testament laws because they were no longer needed, or something to that sort. I'll find it later.

Then why can't gays get married? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either ancient Jewish law must be followed to the letter, or it does not have to be followed at all. Clarify.

[phattonez]

Then why can't gays get married? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either ancient Jewish law must be followed to the letter, or it does not have to be followed at all. Clarify.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html


Matthew 12

Lord of the Sabbath

1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23496a)] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23497b)] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"
11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
13Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

[Shazza Dani]

Then it's okay to break the bible's rules for ethical reasons? So when do we stop persecuting fellow human beings?

[Breaker]

Then it's okay to break the bible's rules for ethical reasons? So when do we stop persecuting fellow human beings?

We haven't yet, nor is there any sign of us stopping on the horizon.

“Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer.”

“Nothing exists until or unless it is observed. An artist is making something exist by observing it. And his hope for other people is that they will also make it exist by observing it. I call it 'creative observation.' Creative viewing.”

“Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has.”

I only wish I could take credit for such quotes.

The man that said all of them was quite possibly one of the greatest existentalists of our time.

And a raving, acid tripping, beatnik that died at an old age, with thoughts too young his generation.

I've found more truth in his and my own musings than your entire bible, or any other religion, which is full of so many holes that most people can't even quote them accurately. The bible was written to answer hard questions for simple people, which are just too inadequate for the kind of people living this day and age.

It's nothing to be ashamed of. I'd rather be proud and admit my ignorance of life and being than claim to "know it all" from a decaying set of ideals written for people that died a long time ago.

“Man is an artifact designed for space travel. He is not designed to remain in his present biologic state any more than a tadpole is designed to remain a tadpole.”

“How I hate those who are dedicated to producing conformity.”

When there is more logic in the writings of a heroin addicted, self-loathing beatnik than your entire Bible, then it's time to start re-evaluating yourself and your surroundings.

[Beldaran]

It's nothing to be ashamed of. I'd rather be proud and admit my ignorance of life and being than claim to "know it all" from a decaying set of ideals written for people that died a long time ago.

Exactly! I always get accused of being horribly arrogant on this board, when in fact my stance is emphatically that I do not know the answers to hardly anything, and likewise neither do you. I am proselytizing intellectual humility and reason.

You know what arrogance is? Believing that your invisible friend telepathically tells you the answers to all the hard questions in life.

[Nicholas Steel]

It's not so much skepticism as it is viewpoint. I look at the world, and to me, it seems like somebody had to have created it, and that somebody had to have put measures in place to maintain it.
we may be able to increase/decrease the severity of the changes...

[Breaker]

Exactly! I always get accused of being horribly arrogant on this board, when in fact my stance is emphatically that I do not know the answers to hardly anything, and likewise neither do you. I am proselytizing intellectual humility and reason.

You know what arrogance is? Believing that your invisible friend telepathically tells you the answers to all the hard questions in life.

That's why we don't argue with eachother anymore. Boring, isn't it? You have to just let people find that answer themselves. We're too introverted for our own good. Language and words is a science in itself. To change the mind of another or do something as simple as adequently explain your own thinking isn't that easy. You can't use language as a baseball bat and bludgeon truth into others. It has to be simple and eloquent. I've hardly mastered that, and on occasion, swinging the bat is easier and much more fun than the challenge of being tactful. That's why I can count more arguements that I've lost on my two hands than I can remember being proven wrong, regardless if I was actually wrong at the time or not.

[Modus Ponens]

i think jesus is a pretty cool guy. eh abolished teh old testament and doesnt afraid of anything

MD, you're my an hero.

[Beldaran]

I am enjoyed those comment by MD two.

[aces2022]

Back to the subject.
Maybe if NASA just stuck with Space and Aeronautics we would actually discover something more than just pictures of what space looks like and actually get to places we've never been. There are plenty of stupid people who would just love to try to go to outerspace who don't care if they die. Place your wager, make a profit or loose.
Back off
Jesus rocks my socks and flips my flops

[rock_nog]

I don't think there's much we can do to stop global warming, so I don't see why people get into such a hubbub about whether it's real or not. Let's, for a moment, assume it is real, it is man-made, and it is likely to be harmful to us. What are we gonna do? Stop driving - we can't do that. Shut down coal plants - not likely. I think the best we can hope for is to do what humans do best - adapt and survive.

I think it's worth it to say - okay, look, the models predict global warming, we should make a contingency plan here. Now, if the models are wrong, no harm, no foul. Nothing has actually been enacted, so there's no huge waste of taxpayer money or anything. However, if the models are right, well then we are in a position to minimize the potential damage.

I understand that people exploit global warming, but I just think it's a bit much to accuse scientists of lying to stop those people from exploiting it. I mean, let's say you have some quack promoting some snake oil cancer cure - you don't lie and tell people that they don't have cancer, you point out that the "cure" doesn't actually do anything to stop the cancer.

[Modus Ponens]

We shouldn't stop driving, we should stop driving vehicles that produce greenhouse gas emissions. And we should shut down coal plants, but not until we've got a large-scale alternate power source in place. Coal is a non-renewable resource anyway. Merely choosing to "adapt and survive" is like driving out into a snowstorm with no tire chains and hoping that you'll survive if you get into an accident, when you could just put on some tire chains.

[Beldaran]

Even if you take global warming out of the equation, coal is fucking gross. It pollutes so much. The fact that this country is run on coal is an intellectual embarrassment. Nuclear is far superior and there is enough uranium to last us far into the future, by which time we will likely have developed fusion power of some kind.

[Breaker]

i love seeing people drive SUVs with stickers that say "bring the troops home".

[Breaker]

we could have fission powered cars already, but you can't trust the average person to use a straw properly let alone drive anything like that. then there's a little group called OPEC that's happy with the way things are, with enough money to make sure they don't change.

kind of in regards to the topic, i believe india is about to launch their first moon mission with the cooperation of NASA. people aren't interested in space anymore. in a post 9/11 world, firemen are more respected than astronauts.

[rock_nog]

The problem with coal is that if we attempt to get rid of coal, the coal industry throws a big hissy fit. Never mind the land that gets torn up in mining it, never mind the god-awful pollutants that it puts in the air... Bah - now there's socialism for you - politicians protect the coal industry, and in exchange, the coal unions all support the politicians that protect them.

Going to oil - I sometimes wonder about what would happen if we found an alternative to oil, in terms of OPEC's reaction. I know a lot of people worry about wars over oil, but I worry that there could be a war triggered by us saying "Look, we don't need your oil anymore."