Favorite Brawlers

[Russ]

Okay, this thread's simple. Who are your two favorite characters in Brawl?

As for me, Ness and Toon Link. They're awesome!

[Pineconn]

Link and [Toon] Link. I obviously prefer Link over everyone else.

In Subspace, when I have to select 4 characters to use, I'll select Link, Samus, Pikachu, and DK. (In the Great Maze, I'll also pick Toon Link and Sonic since you must choose six.)

[Aegix Drakan]

Gotta go with sonic and Falco.

Sonic is just all around fun to play as, and I can surprisingly kick a lot of ass as falco.

I also have fun with Toon link, Pokemon trainer, and Diddy kong. Oh...and maybe still Pit a little.

[SpykStorm]

My favorite character has always been Link (even before I knew about ZC & AGN). My other favorites are Samus, Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, and R.O.B. I haven't unlocked Sonic or Toon Link yet, how do you unlock them?

[Aegix Drakan]

Sonic: beat subspace emmissary, or clear classic mode with 10 different people.

Toon link: after beating subspace, go back to the forest. there's a new door that'll bring you to his arena.

[SpykStorm]

I'm almost through with Subspace, so that shouldn't be too hard. :)

[Russ]

I'm almost through with Subspace, so that shouldn't be too hard. :)
Where are you at right now?

Anyways, besides unlocking Toon Link in the forest after beating Subspace Emmisary, you can also find Jigglypuff in the swamp and Wolf in the Ruins.

And when I played the Great Maze the first time, I did Link, Ness, Luigi, and Yoshi. Now I use Toon Link instead of normal Link.

Edit: Just to clarify, in the poll, you're only supposed to vote for two people. Smam Atoms voted for about five. :)

[Sam Atoms]

*cough*

Yeah, I suppose I need to be more careful about which public polls I vote in. The list of choices was so long that I missed the instructions in the post. :scared:

[Russ]

That's okay. I probably should have said something in the title. It is a long list. It took five minutes for me to type out. :)

[Dechipher]

Diddy Kong all the way. He's such a badass.

[Beldaran]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who voted for R.O.B.

[Dechipher]

R.O.B. has some bitch moves, like Pit.

So does Metaknight. Seriously, his over B is fucked UP.

[erm2003]

I'm having a hard time just choosing two. I have always been a fan of Kirby in Smash Bros. games, but I have regularly used so many of the others it's hard to pick another. They are all balanced well and it makes it fun to use just about anyone.

[mrz84]

Samus (my fav of all smash characters), Ness (#2), Ganondorf (#3)

:kitty:

[The_Amaster]

As strange as it sounds, Meta Knight and Toon Link were the two characters I was most excited about before they were uber-good, before the game was even out.

Sonic and Kirby are also a lot of fun. Sonic especially in 4-way brawls.

And I didn't vote for them, but if I had to select my third tier characters, they'd probably be Ness and Pokemon Trainer.

[ShadowTiger]

I don't have personal favorites. I have an "I'm very good with these people tier," and then I have an "I kick ass with these guys" tier. I have no other category to place characters in.

This is a list of the characters I am attempting to give forth some effort to make "my mains." In no order whatsoever:
Link Mario Fox (Most likely my main, however inadvertently.) Ike (I am not a "slow" Ike player.) Toon Link (Plays rather different than Link.)
Then I also have others in the tier.
Samus Zero Suit Samus Pit (Quite reluctantly: I absolutely refuse to cheese with Forward+B. I'll use the Mirror shield plenty though.) Marth (Taken verbatim from Melee.) Captain Falcon (Similarly verbatim from Melee, but I don't play him that much. Lucas Ness Yoshi (Wall of Pain.) Pikachu[Goggled, because they do nothing] (His tail takes precedence in almost any battle. Less electricity moves, (Except for an Aerial B.) more body attacks.) Falco, whenever I feel like it.

[SpykStorm]

Where are you at right now?

I'm at the Great Maze, have about ten more doors to go. I use Link, Falco, R.O.B, Bowser, Samus, and Game & Watch.

[WindStrike]

I use a bunch of characters... typically, I'll use Lucario, Lucas, Ness, Ike, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Luigi, Falco, Kirby, and maybe some others that I'm trying to learn (need to pick Jigglypuff).
On the other hand, when I start going a losing streak, I switch to my best character, Yoshi, and typically own the heck out of everyone. As much as a lot of people think he was nerfed too much, he's still got a few new things (up+B jump!) that lets him stay within the ranks. I came close to beating one of the top Snake players (happens to be my brother's friend)... though I've never fought a good snake player before (he never fought he good Yoshi player before) and I was taken down on the last life.

Top two for me are Lucario and Yoshi.

[Kairyu]

Lucario is my fave, what with his Kung-Fu skillz.
Ganondorf is my second, especially in the Grandpadorf colors.
DK recently replaced Samus as my third favorite. I still love Samus, but what they did to her in Brawl was just wrong on so many levels. DONKAY PAWNCH!!!

[The_Amaster]

http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/userdata/93/93d0/93d00a/93d00ac4a64f4a2ac0eb77d1ed8316fd/saved/motivator6886338.jpg

http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/userdata/93/93d0/93d00a/93d00ac4a64f4a2ac0eb77d1ed8316fd/saved/motivator7439848.jpg

http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/userdata/93/93d0/93d00a/93d00ac4a64f4a2ac0eb77d1ed8316fd/saved/motivator7579146.jpg
...I was bored...

[ShadowTiger]

Clearly. :p


I still love Samus, but what they did to her in Brawl was just wrong on so many levels.I do agree. The only thing that I love about the new Samus is how her jump is so low, and she can easily move liquid-like horizontally in midair, like Wario or Jigglypuff, and her aerial up attack. Everything else just got ...... ugh. Ruined. Especially her bombs.

[Russ]

Well, they ruined Samus, but they really upgraded Ness. And Yoshi for that matter.

[ShadowTiger]

Indeed, I was actually very amazed by what they did with Yoshi. He's the only character where I think 100% of his moves and physics were improved. Really.

Ness is a mixed bag with me. He's pretty much solidly built up, except for one nagging thing. It's nothing so bad that it breaks him for me, but the differences between him in Melee vs him in Brawl ... well, there's this one move I liked to do. All it was, was the use of a doubletapped X (Jump.) to do his doublejump quickly, leading into horizontally inclined aerial moves more easily. Ness can't really do that anymore. It's hard to explain. I think if I even tried to explain it, it'd sound something like that "liquid aerial movement" I described earlier with Samus or Jigglypuff or Wario.

[The_Amaster]

Even though I'm not actually all that good with Ness, I just find the idea of this young kid with awesome psychic powers to be completely, well, awesome, so I've been training with him some more.
I'm especially interested in honing the PK Thunder-rocket.

[Russ]

Even though I'm not actually all that good with Ness, I just find the idea of this young kid with awesome psychic powers to be completely, well, awesome, so I've been training with him some more.
I'm especially interested in honing the PK Thunder-rocket.
I also find that idea very awesome. Just check ny avatar. :D

And the best thing about PK Thunder is hitting yourself. Ness rockets forward and does aone hit KO to anyone he hits.

[The_Amaster]

Yup. That's what I call the PK Thunder-rocket.
Remember, I had Ness as my avatar for a week about a month or so ago?

Don't like Lucas as much though. Dunno why.

[Russ]

Oh. I though you meant the normal PH Thunder move. I like calling the Thunder-rocket the PK cannonball. :D

I can't stand Lucas. First, his PK Fire just explodes, rather than make a flame pillar. Second, his PK Thinder goes through people. Third, he doesn't have yoyo attacks. And lastly, as revealed in Adventure Mode, he's a coward.

And I remember your Ness avatar.

[ShadowTiger]

I like Lucas for several reasons:

1) His PKFire attack, is a "GTFO" Move. Fire and forget, like throwing one of Link's Bombs, only takes a tad longer.

2) His Bair is a spike when used correctly, but isn't just used as a spike. It's moves like that that make characters very versatile at times.

3) Dair is great for making landing room when used with guile.

4) Although his PK Thunder attack goes through characters, this can be used to your advantage. You can actually send it through nearby enemies, then hit yourself with it to clear some space between you and your foe, or maybe hit a few people along the way. Just go in circles in their hitbox like everyone does.

5) Upsmash. Need I say more? :p

6) His tether has actually saved me a few times.

7) He has this weird glitch where after getting hit, if you do a PK Fire in the opposite direction, then immediately do a PK Magnet, you rocket back onto stage in the opposite direction you were facing. Strange, but very useful.


Not that I like Lucas over Ness. As Ness, truth be told, I mostly use Fair - Dair/Bair combos a lot, with solo Bair shots most often. I don't use PKFire at all, because it aggros people. I don't need that in my playstyle.

[Russ]

Here is something I found comparing Lucas's and Ness's moves to see who is better:


Ness vs. Lucas Comparison------------------------------------------------

For Brawl, Ness gained what would in Melee be called a "clone," but
is now called a "Luigified" version (luigified meaning that their moves are
different enough that you can't really call it a clone.) His name is Lucas
and he comes from Mother 3, a Japan-only game and sequel to EarthBound. He
plays like a slower, faster version of Ness (with a few exceptions, of
course [PK Freeze is the big one, of course]), and, sadly, his moves are not
as versatile as Ness's, and you will find playing Lucas not at all the same
as playing Ness. I don't like that they cloned Ness and think Lucas is
inferior (and a coward besides; Ness shouldn't have taken that arrow for
him...), but feel free to differ.

Standard A-moves- ------------

-AAA-Lucas's standard AAA combo is similar to Ness's and only different
cosmetically. No real difference here.
Advantage: Draw

-Dash attack- Lucas's behaves as if Ness only hit with the last sparkly;
it pops them right up and does decent damage, but Lucas doesn't
shoot any other sparklies except one after some lag, so this is
useless.
Advantage: Ness

-Side Tilt- Like Ness's, only PSI-powered, so it's a tad slower and stronger.
I prefer tilts to be fast, so I'm giving Ness the advantage here.
Advantage: Ness

-Up tilt- Virtually identical in function to Ness's, but Lucas's is a PSI-
powered flip kick a lot like Fox's uair. Since it looks a bit
cooler, I'm saying Lucas wins here. Unless you like volleyball.
Advantage: Lucas

-Down tilt- Lucas's is exactly the same as Ness's, except he does a little
spin at the end. Ness looks happier doing it, though.
Advantage: Draw

-Forwards smash- Lucas's looks very similar, except instead of hitting
enemies with a well-crafted, personalized bat, he hits them with a
branch. A branch. This time, however, Lucas's is faster and weaker
than Ness's, and, like I said, faster seems better to me; here
especially since it makes reflecting stuff easier (yes, Lucas's bat
reflects stuff too). But it's a BRANCH. Geez.
Advantage: Lucas

-Up smash- This is where they start getting REALLY different. Lucas's up
smash bears no resemblence to Ness's yo-yo, instead he shoots up a
big 'ol PSI hexagon that is massively powerful but as obvious as
something obvious. This is probably the most- or second-most
powerful up smash in the game, and I would love to see a good Lucas
player duke it out with a good Ivysaur player in an up smash-only
deathmatch to see whose is most awesome. Sadly, it is slow and
painfully obvious, and lacks the range Ness's has besides, so
victory to Ness.
Advantage: Ness

-Down smash- Another move that has no resemblance to any of Ness's moves.
This one seems like it was actually inherited from Mewto. Bring
him back, Nintendo! We miss him! Lucas points at the ground in
front of him and shoots PK-stuff in three bursts. This is quite
damaging but only hits in front of him and is slow. Ness's is
quick, useful for absorbing projectiles, and hits on both sides of
him.
Advantage: Ness

Specials--------------------------------------------


-Forwards special: PK Fire- These don't work the same at all. Lucas's only
flings enemies diagonally; it doesn't have any of the trapping
effect of Ness's. Worse, Ness's flings people instead of trapping if
they have high enough damage. The only redeeming thing about it is
that it always goes straight; it doesn't go diagonally if used in
midair. This is good in some situations, bad in others. Ness wins.
Advantage: Ness

-Down special: PSI Magnet- Lucas undeniably has the advantage here. It
looks like his would only cover his front half, but he turns if hit
from behind, so it does cover all of him. I read on the Super Smash
Wiki that Ness's Magnet heals for 1.5x the damage dealt, but Lucas's
heals for 2x. Best of all, Lucas's doesn't just push enemies away
subtly, it does good knockback and damage. Lucas's is genuinely
superior here.
Advantage: Lucas

-Up Special: PK Thunder- The Thunders look identical, but work in different
ways. Ness's is faster; enemies can outrun Lucas's if he tries to
use it as a projectile, and they have ample warning that it's
coming. It does a touch more damage and knockback than Ness's, but,
as advertised, it does go through enemies so you can get multiple
hits. This is all well and good in Multi-Man Brawl, where you can
get many easy kills this way, but in regular brawls, the knockback
knocks the enemy so far away and the Thunder moves so slowly that
more than one hit on one opponent is impossible if they're paying
attention. Even worse, since Lucas's goes through people, they can
counterattack while your in the helpless PK Thunder-controlling
animation. No, you shouldn't use this move of Lucas's for offence.
Bear in mind that Ness's Thunder has none of these weaknesses.
Also bad for Lucas is that, whle his PK Cannonball goes a good bit
further, if you hit someone, most of the time you do under-ten
damage and no knockback. If you and they stay trapped while you're
electrified for the whole move, you do 30 or so damage and small
knockback (Ness's does 25 and HUGE knockback.) So Lucas's PK
Canonnball is useless too. It is better for recovery since you
can recover in a crowd of falling people; no fear of hitting
someone and losing PK Thunder. Lucas's Thunder's smaller turning
radius means he can recover in some trenches Ness would die in
(Ness's Thunder hits the wall and vanishes), this is too steep a
price to pay.
Advantage: Ness

-Neutral Special: PK Flash/PK Freeze- I hate PK Freeze. It's like the
developers said "Hey, PK Flash is awesome! But let's give Lucas
an attack like it that, if you hit someone with it, it freezes
them! Yeah! Freezing's awesome! Except that it does less damage,
and won't kill anyone, and you can't hit them 'cuz the ice block
pops up a bit! Yeah! WOOHOO Lucas!" This attack is horrible. PK
Flash and Freeze are both so hard to hit with that, if you do,
you might as well deal 37 damage and kill them rather than do
crappy damage and freeze them. You don't even get free hits on
them since the ice block flies up a little if it encases someone.
You can't use it for edgeguarding since they usually come out of
the block at a higher altitude than they entered it at. Utter fail.
Advantage: Ness


Aerials-------------------------------------


-Neutral Aerial- Lucas does a flip like Ness but also crackles with psycho-
kinetic energy, just like everyone's favorite non-returning Melee
character, Mewtwo. This is laggier but does more damage and looks
cooler. Since Ness's in faster and the difference in damage is no
biggie, Ness takes the day.
Advantage: Ness

-Forward aerial- Just like their dash attacks, Lucas's fair is the
equivalent of Ness's last sparkly alone, so it has lag, but very
similar effects. Ness wins because of this lag.
Advantage: Ness

-Up aerial- Ness's has less range but much greater power. Since both come
out instantly, I'm giving Ness this one since they're so similar.
Advantage: Ness

-Back aerial- These are very different. Ness's is rather straightforward and
quite powerful, but Lucas's is weird. He does a backflip and kicks.
It is laggy but if you have ridiculous timing and luck, it can be a
weak spike. Otherwise, it is just weak and laggy and hits the
opponent in no particular direction.
Advantage: Ness

-Down aerial- Lucas's dair is much like Ness's only instantaneous and with
PSI sparkiles. Ness's spikes powerfully, but Lucas's spikes only
on the last hat and then weakly. If Ness had as much lag on this as
he did in Melee, I'd give this to Lucas, but, as he doesn't, Ness
wins.
Advantage: Ness


Throws-------------------------------------

Lucas has greater standing grab range, but they tie on dash grabs.
A few brownie points to Lucas for being able to use his grab move (the Rope
Snake) for a tether recovery.

-Pummel- Both do the same thing. 'Nuff said.
Advantage: Draw

-Up throw- Identical in effect, both look a bit different. Lucas's is not as
cool as Ness's, but I'm ignoring that. Not.
Advantage: Ness

-Forward throw- Both look similar but Ness's has set knockback, making it
useful for gimping with dairs or PK Fire. Lucas's is useless for
killing so Ness gets this one.
Advantage: Ness

-Down throw- Both put the foe on the ground and BURNINATE them but Ness does
it cooler.
Advantage: Draw

-Back throw- Lucas's back throw is useless, Ness's kills people, Ness wins.
Advantage: Ness



FINAL SMASH-----------------------------

Lucas gets more and yellow meteors that, although they do less
damage each, only 14%, are bigger and harder to dodge, and you get more of
them. SInce most PK Starstorm-related fatalities (FINISH HIM!!!!) happen
when the pwnee gets hit by multiple meteors, more and bigger is better.
Lucas's meteors come straight down instead of radiating from a point
offscreen, but this doesn't affect it at all. Lucas's actually looks a bit
cooler too in a rare turnaround.
Advantage: Lucas

--------------------------

The Breakdown: Ness 15, Lucas 3. If you value power over speed, it's
Ness 7, Lucas 11, but I don't. It comes down to personal perference
in the end, I guess. Ness forever!

As you can see, Ness is obviously better than Lucas. Go Ness!

[Kairyu]

I can't use Ness at all, but I'm almost able to use Lucas. I can't do a PK Thunder recovery in any sort of difficult situation, so I don't use either much, but Lucas' USmash alone puts him above Ness for me. It's got way too much invincibility and range for something with it's speed, and even uncharged rivals a lot of fully charged smashes. The fact that his specials are all more versatile and useful (with the exception of PK Thunder) seals the deal.
Now if only he had a less crazy third jump.

Also, triple lol at that horrendous logic-void rant. I'm bored at the moment, so I think I'll point-by-point refute it.


For Brawl, Ness gained what would in Melee be called a "clone," but
is now called a "Luigified" version (luigified meaning that their moves are
different enough that you can't really call it a clone.) His name is Lucas
and he comes from Mother 3, a Japan-only game and sequel to EarthBound. He
plays like a slower, faster version of Ness (with a few exceptions, of
course [PK Freeze is the big one, of course]), and, sadly, his moves are not
as versatile as Ness's, and you will find playing Lucas not at all the same
as playing Ness. I don't like that they cloned Ness and think Lucas is
inferior (and a coward besides; Ness shouldn't have taken that arrow for
him...), but feel free to differ.
Lucas isn't a coward so much as he is a pacifist. He doesn't like to fight. From what I've heard, he's been through more in his game than Ness could even dream of.
He's also way more versatile in most cases.
Also, 'like a slower, faster version?' Huh?


Standard A-moves- ------------

-AAA-Lucas's standard AAA combo is similar to Ness's and only different
cosmetically. No real difference here.
Advantage: Draw
Technically, Lucas seems to do 10% total instead of 9%, but okay. There may be a range or frame difference I can't see.


-Dash attack- Lucas's behaves as if Ness only hit with the last sparkly;
it pops them right up and does decent damage, but Lucas doesn't
shoot any other sparklies except one after some lag, so this is
useless.
Advantage: Ness
Lucas' does 12% on a hit, Ness does 13% split into 3 hits. I'd call that risk/reward preference, and not a big one at that. Dunno about the first hit, but Ness' second hit pushes the enemy away on the ground, and his second hit puts them a bit behind him in the air- Lucas' puts them above and in front of him.
Both finish at about the same time, but Ness does get his first hit out faster.


-Side Tilt- Like Ness's, only PSI-powered, so it's a tad slower and stronger.
I prefer tilts to be fast, so I'm giving Ness the advantage here.
Advantage: Ness
Hahahahaha
Lucas recovers faster.
Try it.
Also, both deal 11%.


-Up tilt- Virtually identical in function to Ness's, but Lucas's is a PSI-
powered flip kick a lot like Fox's uair. Since it looks a bit
cooler, I'm saying Lucas wins here. Unless you like volleyball.
Advantage: Lucas
Lucas: 11%, a few frames slower. It seems to be two hits, but it doesn't look like you can only get one hit except in bizzare situations.
Ness: 7%, slightly less horizontal and vertical range.


-Down tilt- Lucas's is exactly the same as Ness's, except he does a little
spin at the end. Ness looks happier doing it, though.
Advantage: Draw
Lucas: 6%
Ness: 4%
Both are fully chainspammable and seem to inflict tripping at low percents. Pretty close.


-Forwards smash- Lucas's looks very similar, except instead of hitting
enemies with a well-crafted, personalized bat, he hits them with a
branch. A branch. This time, however, Lucas's is faster and weaker
than Ness's, and, like I said, faster seems better to me; here
especially since it makes reflecting stuff easier (yes, Lucas's bat
reflects stuff too). But it's a BRANCH. Geez.
Advantage: Lucas
Lucas: 21%, no sweetspot I can find. Definately faster, though.
Ness: 25% at point blank, 33% on a tipper.


-Up smash- This is where they start getting REALLY different. Lucas's up
smash bears no resemblence to Ness's yo-yo, instead he shoots up a
big 'ol PSI hexagon that is massively powerful but as obvious as
something obvious. This is probably the most- or second-most
powerful up smash in the game, and I would love to see a good Lucas
player duke it out with a good Ivysaur player in an up smash-only
deathmatch to see whose is most awesome. Sadly, it is slow and
painfully obvious, and lacks the range Ness's has besides, so
victory to Ness.
Advantage: Ness
W.T.F.
It's not a spam move, it's a kill move, and a darn good one at that. You only need to land it once, when the enemy is damaged. He can kill people, uncharged, regardless of DI, hitting someone under 100%. The invulnerability frames make it even harder to beat it out.
Ness' ability to hit people even while charging is nice, but it's not really something you'd use for the same purpose.
Ness has a definite horizontal advantage, but Lucas has a just-as-clear vertical advantage, enough to make air attacks against him extremely risky.
I'd say it's not worth trying to compare the two, but in a pinch I'd definately rather have Lucas' trademark KO move handy. Ness' has it's perks, but both kids already have decent damage-dealers.


-Down smash- Another move that has no resemblance to any of Ness's moves.
This one seems like it was actually inherited from Mewto. Bring
him back, Nintendo! We miss him! Lucas points at the ground in
front of him and shoots PK-stuff in three bursts. This is quite
damaging but only hits in front of him and is slow. Ness's is
quick, useful for absorbing projectiles, and hits on both sides of
him.
Advantage: Ness
Lucas pulls off his frontal hits before Ness brings his Yo-Yo forward. Lucas does more damage uncharged than Ness does fully Charged. Lucas also send the opponent forward at a mostly horizontally angle instead of about 45 degrees, making side kills easier when needed.
The fact that Lucas only hits on one side is an issue, though. Lucas ends up needing to rely on his USmash and UTilt to deal with roll punishment or groups of people, neither of which matches either of Ness' vertical smashes in horizontal range. I can definately concede that being one of the extremely limited group of fighters with a one-sided DSmash gives Ness the win in this category.


Specials--------------------------------------------


-Forwards special: PK Fire- These don't work the same at all. Lucas's only
flings enemies diagonally; it doesn't have any of the trapping
effect of Ness's. Worse, Ness's flings people instead of trapping if
they have high enough damage. The only redeeming thing about it is
that it always goes straight; it doesn't go diagonally if used in
midair. This is good in some situations, bad in others. Ness wins.
Advantage: Ness
Ness' becomes useless somewhere around 60%. Lucas' is an annoying keep-away tool from 0% to 999%. Ness has a huge damage advantage at low percents, but Lucas comes out on top more and more as the match goes on. Lucas' is also better for most air battles, since it travels horizontally. Ness can only use it while attacking a groundbound foe.
Lucas also has BSticking tricks Ness doesn't, but those aren't helpful for most people.


-Down special: PSI Magnet- Lucas undeniably has the advantage here. It
looks like his would only cover his front half, but he turns if hit
from behind, so it does cover all of him. I read on the Super Smash
Wiki that Ness's Magnet heals for 1.5x the damage dealt, but Lucas's
heals for 2x. Best of all, Lucas's doesn't just push enemies away
subtly, it does good knockback and damage. Lucas's is genuinely
superior here.
Advantage: Lucas
Both percentages are correct, Lucas wins this hands down.


-Up Special: PK Thunder- The Thunders look identical, but work in different
ways. Ness's is faster; enemies can outrun Lucas's if he tries to
use it as a projectile, and they have ample warning that it's
coming. It does a touch more damage and knockback than Ness's, but,
as advertised, it does go through enemies so you can get multiple
hits. This is all well and good in Multi-Man Brawl, where you can
get many easy kills this way, but in regular brawls, the knockback
knocks the enemy so far away and the Thunder moves so slowly that
more than one hit on one opponent is impossible if they're paying
attention. Even worse, since Lucas's goes through people, they can
counterattack while your in the helpless PK Thunder-controlling
animation. No, you shouldn't use this move of Lucas's for offence.
Bear in mind that Ness's Thunder has none of these weaknesses.
Also bad for Lucas is that, whle his PK Cannonball goes a good bit
further, if you hit someone, most of the time you do under-ten
damage and no knockback. If you and they stay trapped while you're
electrified for the whole move, you do 30 or so damage and small
knockback (Ness's does 25 and HUGE knockback.) So Lucas's PK
Canonnball is useless too. It is better for recovery since you
can recover in a crowd of falling people; no fear of hitting
someone and losing PK Thunder. Lucas's Thunder's smaller turning
radius means he can recover in some trenches Ness would die in
(Ness's Thunder hits the wall and vanishes), this is too steep a
price to pay.
Advantage: Ness
PK Thunder is indeed more of an attack now. I still wouldn't use either on their own for offense, since you can't R-Cancel it like you can Snake's Nikita.
Ness' PK Thunder 2 is better, that's for certain, but Lucas' PK Thunder 1 can't be gimped simply by touching it like Ness' can, which makes it better for recovering. I have issues with both kids' PK Thunders, though.


-Neutral Special: PK Flash/PK Freeze- I hate PK Freeze. It's like the
developers said "Hey, PK Flash is awesome! But let's give Lucas
an attack like it that, if you hit someone with it, it freezes
them! Yeah! Freezing's awesome! Except that it does less damage,
and won't kill anyone, and you can't hit them 'cuz the ice block
pops up a bit! Yeah! WOOHOO Lucas!" This attack is horrible. PK
Flash and Freeze are both so hard to hit with that, if you do,
you might as well deal 37 damage and kill them rather than do
crappy damage and freeze them. You don't even get free hits on
them since the ice block flies up a little if it encases someone.
You can't use it for edgeguarding since they usually come out of
the block at a higher altitude than they entered it at. Utter fail.
Advantage: Ness
Lucas' is able to hit from much farther away, but Ness does have a big damage and knockback advantage, and yeah, this isn't an attack you'll be hitting with much.
Fortunately, you won't be using either much if ever, so nobody cares who does it better. Neither move is hitting anything.



Aerials-------------------------------------


-Neutral Aerial- Lucas does a flip like Ness but also crackles with psycho-
kinetic energy, just like everyone's favorite non-returning Melee
character, Mewtwo. This is laggier but does more damage and looks
cooler. Since Ness's in faster and the difference in damage is no
biggie, Ness takes the day.
Advantage: Ness
Incorrect, Pichu is my favorite non-returner.
The difference in recovery frames for landing lag in Ness' favor... is probably pretty close to the difference in startup frames in Lucas' favor. Both can be used safely in a shorthop though, so who cares?


-Forward aerial- Just like their dash attacks, Lucas's fair is the
equivalent of Ness's last sparkly alone, so it has lag, but very
similar effects. Ness wins because of this lag.
Advantage: Ness

Uh... both attacks seem to take almost exactly the same amount of frames to recover...
It's a lot easier to land Lucas' one hit than Ness' four or five. Ness seems to do 11% if all of them manage to hit. Lucas gets 10% on a glancing blow and 12% on a clean hit.


-Up aerial- Ness's has less range but much greater power. Since both come
out instantly, I'm giving Ness this one since they're so similar.
Advantage: Ness
Ness' comes out significantly slower, and both deal 13%. YOU LOSE GOOD DAY SIR.


-Back aerial- These are very different. Ness's is rather straightforward and
quite powerful, but Lucas's is weird. He does a backflip and kicks.
It is laggy but if you have ridiculous timing and luck, it can be a
weak spike. Otherwise, it is just weak and laggy and hits the
opponent in no particular direction.
Advantage: Ness
Ness: 8% glance, 13% sweetspot. Lucas only seems to get 9%. Still, Lucas can RAR his half-circle spin for a mini wall of PK pain, which Ness can't. I'd rather have the coverage, personally.


-Down aerial- Lucas's dair is much like Ness's only instantaneous and with
PSI sparkiles. Ness's spikes powerfully, but Lucas's spikes only
on the last hat and then weakly. If Ness had as much lag on this as
he did in Melee, I'd give this to Lucas, but, as he doesn't, Ness
wins.
Advantage: Ness
Lol what? Are you trying to use it as a kill move? No wonder you're having trouble. It's a damage dealer. You use it to approach. Ness' is a KO move, and as far as Dair spikes go it's not too hot on range, damage, or knockback. Lucas' floaty Dair is great for safe, hard-to-predict approaches.
Lucas can also do a footstool jump->Dair Lucario-style to get through shields, I believe.


Throws-------------------------------------

Lucas has greater standing grab range, but they tie on dash grabs.
A few brownie points to Lucas for being able to use his grab move (the Rope
Snake) for a tether recovery.

-Pummel- Both do the same thing. 'Nuff said.
Advantage: Draw
Tie on dash? The heck are you smoking?
Generally, non-tethers are better than tethers since they're just so much faster you can afford to whiff. Lucas isn't too bad as far as tethers go, but I'd still prefer the normal grab.


-Up throw- Identical in effect, both look a bit different. Lucas's is not as
cool as Ness's, but I'm ignoring that. Not.
Advantage: Ness
Lame. Hexagonal death > sparkly death.


-Forward throw- Both look similar but Ness's has set knockback, making it
useful for gimping with dairs or PK Fire. Lucas's is useless for
killing so Ness gets this one.
Advantage: Ness
Actually, Lucas' knockback seems pretty close. It's just more affected by damage. If you're trying to get a KO with a throw in Brawl you're already doing something wrong, though. I'm curious how you intend to gimp someone with Ness' forward throw, since the opponent recovers fast enough to escape easily.


-Down throw- Both put the foe on the ground and BURNINATE them but Ness does
it cooler.
Advantage: Draw
Again, lame. Hexagons are freaking awesome. Geometry ftw.


-Back throw- Lucas's back throw is useless, Ness's kills people, Ness wins.
Advantage: Ness
Actually, Lucas' backthrow has that set knockback you seemed to think gave Ness' Forward throw such a big edge. Remind me again why I wanted that? Ness' does kill at high percents, so I'd rather have it here.



FINAL SMASH-----------------------------

Lucas gets more and yellow meteors that, although they do less
damage each, only 14%, are bigger and harder to dodge, and you get more of
them. SInce most PK Starstorm-related fatalities (FINISH HIM!!!!) happen
when the pwnee gets hit by multiple meteors, more and bigger is better.
Lucas's meteors come straight down instead of radiating from a point
offscreen, but this doesn't affect it at all. Lucas's actually looks a bit
cooler too in a rare turnaround.
Advantage: Lucas
Ness' FS is better than Lucas'. It's smaller, but it's faster. Lucas' can be dodged with some decent timing as long as your roll isn't slow. Ness' requires luck and prayer. Both are pretty luck-based, though.
Lucas CAN break the smash ball with one good PK Thunder, though.


--------------------------

The Breakdown: Ness 15, Lucas 3. If you value power over speed, it's
Ness 7, Lucas 11, but I don't. It comes down to personal perference
in the end, I guess. Ness forever!
It does, but it'd be nice if you could at least pretend to be objective about it.

[ShadowTiger]

@ Russ: Philosophers everywhere are throwing up right now.

[Russ]

You know, when you look at it, it the Ness vs. Lucas thing really depends on wether you like speed or power better. I like speed, which is why I like Ness and Toon Link better than Lucas and Link. And there is a diffrence between being a coward and being a pacifist. Lucas is obviously a coward, not a pacifist. Yes, he does improve over the game, but at the beginnin, he's a total whimp, and totally deserved to be turned into a throphy.

[The_Amaster]

I just wanted to say that I've always wanted to see (properly done, mind you) much darker version of EarthBound, either as a book, or game, or even a movie, which has, in addition to other much more serious elements, Ness and Paula trapped in a government laboratory determined to analyze the source of their psi-powers.
As cliche as it sounds, I think it could really work.

[Master Maniac]

like a slower, faster version of Ness

dunno if anyone else quoted this... but its all that i had the will to read to.

i dont even have to make a lame analogy for this one...

[Aegix Drakan]

eh...Lucas has one undeniable thing on Ness that no one can argue...

His PK thunder RAPES smash balls. It makes it so easy to snag a final smash that it's not funny.

[Russ]

I just wanted to say that I've always wanted to see (properly done, mind you) much darker version of EarthBound, either as a book, or game, or even a movie, which has, in addition to other much more serious elements, Ness and Paula trapped in a government laboratory determined to analyze the source of their psi-powers.
As cliche as it sounds, I think it could really work.
Hey, I'm working on an Earthbound quest in ZC. If you want any ideas incorporated into it, PM me.

[rock_nog]

I just wanted to say that I've always wanted to see (properly done, mind you) much darker version of EarthBound, either as a book, or game, or even a movie, which has, in addition to other much more serious elements, Ness and Paula trapped in a government laboratory determined to analyze the source of their psi-powers.
As cliche as it sounds, I think it could really work.
No, NO! I object wholeheartedly! Those of us who were born in the 80s had to suffer a nonstop onslaught of that particular cliche. It seemed like every other kid's show/movie featured it in some way or another - either someone would get powers, or there'd be an alien, and government scientists would want to catch/study them. ET, the Secret of NIMH, the Secret World of Alex Mack... Pretty sure there was at least an episode or two of Rescue Rangers like that... and Ducktales... and that's just scratching the surface.

[Russ]

Hey, I think it's a good idea. Although it doesn't have to be the government. Maybe and arch nemisis searching for ultimate power...

[Cloral]

I selected Pit and Marth, though I should point out that I'm not all that good at SSB.