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DarkDragoonX
05-12-2008, 12:15 AM
The Escapist (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_148/4874-Hard-Times) has an article up about difficulty in video games. The article interested me, as I find that games today are way, way too fucking easy. Quicksaves, no death penalties, combat that a lobotomy patient would consider child's play... the list goes on.

For the lazy, one of the more interesting quotes from the article:


In the years between then and now, there's been a fundamental shift in our expectations. Once upon a time, games were competitors. Now, primarily, they're entertainers. They aimed to beat you. Now, to be beaten. Our language says much, really. While we've talked about difficulty curves forever, the problems now are "difficulty spikes." No one ever critiques a game for a difficulty-trough - because the former stops you getting anywhere and the latter is just something you coast through.

This much really can't be argued with... games used to be out to get you. Arcade games were designed to be very hard, yet still fair once you were skillful enough. Take the arcade classic Defender, for example. The creators never expected anybody to get past the first few levels. The game is specifically designed to eat your face and suck quarters out of you... and yet, as people played, they started getting good, and pretty soon could play for an extremely long time. Another classic game (and one of my all-time favorites), Rastan, is often considered murderously difficult by first-time players. I've witnessed people use several continues just to clear one stage. Yet I've played the game enough, learned it's littles rules, that I can clear it on a single life without any trouble.

There was a time that you didn't just play a game, didn't simply finish a game... you had to beat the game, you had to learn how the damn thing worked before you could really be any good at it. Now, of course things have to be a little different on a console... since you aren't trying to suck quarters out of somebody, the game can't be quite as infuriatingly hard as an arcade title. Even so, you have to play a helluva lot of Contra before you start getting good at it.

Remember the big fuss about how the original Devil May Cry 3 (not the toned-down special edition) was "way too hard?" Bullshit. It's difficult at first, yes, but if you take the time to learn how to really play the damn game, you'll find you can tear through it without too much trouble.

"Difficulty spike" really is a term used a lot nowadays, and "difficulty curve" is hardly used at all. Players expect to be able to get into a game and play it at a competent level from the get-go, without any significant escalation in difficulty. They don't want to have to learn how to play. They want to skip merrily through tulip-covered fields so that they can see the next goddamn cutscene. And there certainly can't be any part of a game that requires them to reach a new level of aptitude, or they bitch about how unfair boss X is, or how part Y is way too difficult.

Another nice quote from the article:


The results of the entryist movement have been mixed. Compare what happens when you say "Knights of the Old Republic," which practically beat itself, and "Deus Ex: Invisible War," which was nigh impossible, in a room full of gamers. Fine-tuning difficulty remains problematic for developers. While it may have been satisfactory for System Shock 2 to sell 250,000 units in 1999, sales numbers like that in today's development environment would be disastrous. So while Bioshock plays similarly to SS2, it's far more forgiving if you're not an experienced first-person gamer. Ken Levine was famously quoted as telling the team he wanted his grandmother to be able to complete it on "Easy."

Which is all well and good, but there's a problem with entryism: No one appreciates the top end, since everyone follows the path of least resistance. If "Grandma Mode" is available, hardcore gamers are more likely to waltz through the game than attempt a harder difficulty. There's no point to putting yourself through a tougher experience if the end result is the same. Fundamentally, the entryist movement has failed - the bottom level has been lowered, but the top level, the level at which games were originally designed to be played, has been weakened in turn.

Now, ignoring the bizarre statement regarding the difficulty of Deus Ex 2, a game that can't really be considered hard by anybody not missing an arm, this is rather interesting. The major reason for the steadily declining difficulty in games is simple: hard games don't sell well enough to be profitable any more. As the cost of making games rises, publishers can only jack up the cost of the game so much... they already raised the base price to $60 for this generation of consoles, and people are cranky enough over that. The only other solution is to a make a game that will appeal to the widest possible audience to generate more sales.

Unfortunately, this means fucking over the hardcore gamer in favor of catering to casual gamers/less skilled gamers, as a hardcore gamer will still play through an easy title, but a less-skilled gamer will rarely put in the time to learn how to play a hard game. Not too long ago, I overheard some teenager at the local EB mention that he didn't like Ninja Gaiden (referring to the Xbox game, not the NES game) because it was "too hard" and he couldn't make it past the second level. This made my jaw drop. If he thought Ninja Gaiden was hard, all the old NES games I played when I was half his age would eat him alive. And yet, instead of improving his skills, learning to play, he found it easier to just play something else.

The problem is, I don't see any way out of this situation. The group of gamers that comprise players of the NES era and earlier are no longer the mainstream. We're a fringe group now. Those of us who would butt heads against a seemingly impossible game until we came out on top have been pushed to the side by the much larger group of people who shy away from the slightest bit of adversity in their games, and developers have to go where the money is.

It's incredibly frustrating to somebody who really enjoys the old style of gaming, because asides from a few franchises (notably DMC and Ninja Gaiden) and the occasional niche title, the industry has moved towards increasingly easy games. Even action/adventure titles (Legend of Zelda, Okami) and RPGs are much easier. Being easy isn't necessarily a flaw, mind you... I can and do enjoy easy games. Even so, there's a certain sense of accomplishment, of satisfaction, that only a truly challenging game can deliver, and the general public's (thus, in turn, the gaming industry's) aversion to that level of difficulty is disheartening.

Thoughts?

Oh, and pardon any grammatical and/or spelling errors in this... I couldn't be arsed to double-check it, so it probably contains a few minor stupidities.

Beldaran
05-12-2008, 12:51 AM
They should make satisfyingly difficult games with smaller budgets. Make walk-through movies with amazing graphics for the masses, and make real, hard core games with reduced bells and whistles for people who prefer the challenge. I would still enjoy some really cool games with graphics from the year 2000. Hell, most of the games I play and love are really outdated anyway.

If they came out with really awesome, challenging games that only cost $500,000 to make, they'd make a fortune. The problem is, they want to make a really hard game for purists and then spend $8,000,000 on graphics. They ought to cater to the many different nitches out there.

MottZilla
05-12-2008, 01:35 AM
I definitely agree, games were watered down for the shitty average players. Or the so-called "mass market". But some games still maintain a good level of challenge. Really it's not so easy to get just the right difficulty curve in a game. Often it's not challenging at all, or it suddenly spikes big time.

Yoshiman
05-12-2008, 01:39 AM
I hate how easy some games have become. I remember when I was younger and I beat a game, I felt a sense of accomplishment and joy. But a lot of games now make it feel like you just read the final chapter in a book.

I loved Devil May Cry 3. At first, it was brutally hard. It took me several tries to beat Cerberus (the first boss). And when you died, you got sent back to the beginning of the level, not this "appear right outside the boss room" stuff. The game forces you to learn what works and what doesn't, instead of just tapping a single button.


I want to see a Zelda game where the Blue Darknuts make a return, and hearts are equivalent to the Holy Grail. Or another Resident Evil where your inventory consists of a Beretta, 8 bullets, and a Blue Key. And then in the next room, there's 3 zombified dogs running around or something.

Brasel
05-12-2008, 04:29 AM
I'll be honest. I fell into the whole "easy game" niche awhile ago. I blame it on the fact that half the time, I'm either too busy to play a challenging game, or when I'm not, I'm just too bushed from work that I really don't want to play something like that. Every once in awhile, I'll pick up an old NES game for the challenge of getting through it, but honestly, I just don't have the time or the patience anymore for hard games. Its just the fact that I'm no longer a child with massive amounts of time to pour into gaming. All I can do is dream of yesterday and enjoy what I have now.

Nicholas Steel
05-12-2008, 05:50 AM
The Escapist (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_148/4874-Hard-Times) has an article up about difficulty in video games. The article interested me, as I find that games today are way, way too fucking easy. Quicksaves, no death penalties, combat that a lobotomy patient would consider child's play... the list goes on.

For the lazy, one of the more interesting quotes from the article:



This much really can't be argued with... games used to be out to get you. Arcade games were designed to be very hard, yet still fair once you were skillful enough. Take the arcade classic Defender, for example. The creators never expected anybody to get past the first few levels. The game is specifically designed to eat your face and suck quarters out of you... and yet, as people played, they started getting good, and pretty soon could play for an extremely long time. Another classic game (and one of my all-time favorites), Rastan, is often considered murderously difficult by first-time players. I've witnessed people use several continues just to clear one stage. Yet I've played the game enough, learned it's littles rules, that I can clear it on a single life without any trouble.

There was a time that you didn't just play a game, didn't simply finish a game... you had to beat the game, you had to learn how the damn thing worked before you could really be any good at it. Now, of course things have to be a little different on a console... since you aren't trying to suck quarters out of somebody, the game can't be quite as infuriatingly hard as an arcade title. Even so, you have to play a helluva lot of Contra before you start getting good at it.

Remember the big fuss about how the original Devil May Cry 3 (not the toned-down special edition) was "way too hard?" Bullshit. It's difficult at first, yes, but if you take the time to learn how to really play the damn game, you'll find you can tear through it without too much trouble.

"Difficulty spike" really is a term used a lot nowadays, and "difficulty curve" is hardly used at all. Players expect to be able to get into a game and play it at a competent level from the get-go, without any significant escalation in difficulty. They don't want to have to learn how to play. They want to skip merrily through tulip-covered fields so that they can see the next goddamn cutscene. And there certainly can't be any part of a game that requires them to reach a new level of aptitude, or they bitch about how unfair boss X is, or how part Y is way too difficult.

Another nice quote from the article:



Now, ignoring the bizarre statement regarding the difficulty of Deus Ex 2, a game that can't really be considered hard by anybody not missing an arm, this is rather interesting. The major reason for the steadily declining difficulty in games is simple: hard games don't sell well enough to be profitable any more. As the cost of making games rises, publishers can only jack up the cost of the game so much... they already raised the base price to $60 for this generation of consoles, and people are cranky enough over that. The only other solution is to a make a game that will appeal to the widest possible audience to generate more sales.

Unfortunately, this means fucking over the hardcore gamer in favor of catering to casual gamers/less skilled gamers, as a hardcore gamer will still play through an easy title, but a less-skilled gamer will rarely put in the time to learn how to play a hard game. Not too long ago, I overheard some teenager at the local EB mention that he didn't like Ninja Gaiden (referring to the Xbox game, not the NES game) because it was "too hard" and he couldn't make it past the second level. This made my jaw drop. If he thought Ninja Gaiden was hard, all the old NES games I played when I was half his age would eat him alive. And yet, instead of improving his skills, learning to play, he found it easier to just play something else.

The problem is, I don't see any way out of this situation. The group of gamers that comprise players of the NES era and earlier are no longer the mainstream. We're a fringe group now. Those of us who would butt heads against a seemingly impossible game until we came out on top have been pushed to the side by the much larger group of people who shy away from the slightest bit of adversity in their games, and developers have to go where the money is.

It's incredibly frustrating to somebody who really enjoys the old style of gaming, because asides from a few franchises (notably DMC and Ninja Gaiden) and the occasional niche title, the industry has moved towards increasingly easy games. Even action/adventure titles (Legend of Zelda, Okami) and RPGs are much easier. Being easy isn't necessarily a flaw, mind you... I can and do enjoy easy games. Even so, there's a certain sense of accomplishment, of satisfaction, that only a truly challenging game can deliver, and the general public's (thus, in turn, the gaming industry's) aversion to that level of difficulty is disheartening.

Thoughts?

Oh, and pardon any grammatical and/or spelling errors in this... I couldn't be arsed to double-check it, so it probably contains a few minor stupidities.
Post of the YEAR!!! :heart:

jen0608
05-12-2008, 09:08 AM
For me I didn't find the modern game difficult...I think this is much challenging but not that hard...You can easily relate to it if you want to...just keep focus on it...and understand the strategy of the game...also some key functions...

rock_nog
05-12-2008, 09:28 AM
Yeah, it's gotten to the point where I only ever see the singleplayer portion of games to be simply a warm-up for the multiplayer portion. I mean, just seems like these days, the only way to get any challenge out of a game is to play against other humans.

Archibaldo
05-12-2008, 11:45 AM
I think part of the fact that we find games too easy now a days is that most of us have been playing games all of our lives. Our skills from other games carry over. Especially in FPS titles. If you have skills in one FPS, they will carry over to the next FPS game you play. Experience is a big part. My neighbors who never play games had a hell of a hard time playing GH on easy, yet me who had been playing games all my life had no problem on Medium.

I remember when I was kid playing Super Mario 3. After getting past the first area was extremely difficult, but these days I could beat the game no problem.

MottZilla
05-12-2008, 12:02 PM
That may be part of it, but that certainly isn't all of it. Even Nintendo games, with your built up skills from many years of gaming, aren't "easy" like some games today. I guess it's not so bad, as often in the past you'd see games with the merciless point of doom. Some point in the game that spiked in difficulty or confusion to an insane degree.

I think Anthony summed things up well. I honestly don't think it is a problem as I still find fun and challenging gameplay.

Aegix Drakan
05-12-2008, 12:31 PM
I also miss some of the challenge that games used to have. Ok, I DON'T want NES difficulty challenge, That's just plain cruel. However, I DO think that many of today's games are way too easy.

When the final boss of Zelda: Twilight Princess does HALF A HEART OF DAMAGE, you know there's a problem. With the declining difficulty, beating a game doesn't make you feel awesome anymore...

Something that ticks me off is those games that HAVE alearning curve, but when you master it, it's waaay to easy. When I first played Sonic riders, I got owned so bad. Now, I can own the crap out of any course, and in order to get any challenge at all, I need to handicap myself somehow.

oh...speaking of challenge... :P Unlimited Saga. It's awesome. My firend boutght it somewhere, and we've all been playing it. Now THAT, my friends is a Hardcore-only experience. I love the fact that it requires a lot of effort, but remains fair (as long as you don't screw up. If you make a major screw up, you are in for some pain.). :P those of you with PS2s, look it up.


oh, and My best friend and I are making an RPG together, and he is insistent on it being hard. And he's done a good job with that. Matter of fact, if we EVER get the damn thing online (despite the filesize being HUUUGE due to all the imported music), I'll make sure to post a link for all you hardcore-ists.

Grasshopper
05-12-2008, 04:06 PM
I think some of it also has to do with a large shift in story telling in games. Almost all games try to focus heavily on a cohesive storyline. If you make a game too difficult, you risk stifling the the story and atmosphere. The ultimate goal for the story teller is to ensure the player gets to the end of the story without large pauses in the middle due to difficult objectives, or the player giving up entirely because it was unbeatable. And combine this with the fact that market is increased ten-fold compared to a two decades ago, the majority of the market isn't the hardcore "I can beat anything" gamer. So developers are making games easier for the majority of the market so that the majority continues to buy their products, which is why I think "hard games don't sell well enough to be profitable any more."

The_Amaster
05-12-2008, 05:31 PM
I think that really difficulty curve is everything. The games of old had ultra-tough beginnings that dropped you off the deep end and slaughtered you. The games of now let you wade around in the kiddy pool for a bit before maybe taking you out to six feet. And in several newer games it seems to be that the true difficulty comes after the main storyline. You breeze through the game, then come back for all the "extras".

Darth Marsden
05-12-2008, 06:03 PM
I think it's a fine balance. I've just finished Asterix at the Olympic Games for the Wii, two days after I rented it (God bless online rentals, I'd hate to have paid for that). According to the in-game clock, I've collected everything and thrashed the whole thing in under 7 hours. That was my first try and in spite of the 10 minutes I spent trying desperately trying to understand how I do the move needed to beat the end boss. Similar thing with the Iron Man game. I'm whizzing through it, and the only replay value I'll have is destroying the practically invisible weapon crates, for which I shall probably need a guide. Seriously, INVISIBLE.

If anyone here has played The Simpsons Game, they actually touch on this issue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l334gG9dgio). If you have infinite lives and no real score system, where's the challenge? It could be actually finishing the game, which is an issue for me sometimes. If a game is too hard, I'll give up. And so will a lot of people out there. Modern games aren't just trying to appeal to hardcore gamers any more. They need to attract everyone, and if they force you to play the same thing for hours on end until you're good enough to get through the first few levels without dying, then a lot of those casual gamers will stop playing, which isn't ideal.

To developers and publishers, it's better to have games that are easier so that more people can beat them then to have them harder and discourage people from playing at all.

And there are hard games out there. You just have to look a little harder for them. Or play on Hard. Or download fan patches. Take your pick.

Cloral
05-12-2008, 06:29 PM
It sounds from the article like we need more of what they used to do: sure there's an easy mode, but you can't really complete the game in that mode. At the end, you're told, "That's nice and all, but why don't you go back and really complete the game?"

Also I kinda hate to say it, but I think achievements do help somewhat in this area as they do give real incentive to beat a game on a harder difficulty.

AtmaWeapon
05-12-2008, 09:39 PM
The reason I fell in love with RPGs is they let you choose your own difficulty. We didn't have much money, so I played 90% of my games via rentals. Combine this with the fact that from 8th grade to 11th grade I was pretty much consistently grounded from video games, and it turns out I suck pretty hard at games. I didn't have the patience to spend hours getting good at games, particularly when Game Genie was pretty cheap. RPGs were awesome for me because if I put an hour or two into leveling my party, I could tone down the difficulty enough that I'd get around the tough spots.

Nowadays, it's rare for me to find a game that I can't beat. Something's wrong with that; I'm not significantly better at games. Sometimes there's a super-frustrating challenge that's just a little too hard (I still haven't beaten the last part of Half-Life 2 Episode 2), but if I persevere the random numbers fall in my favor. In some ways I miss the old impossible games, but in other ways it's nice that the $20 cheat device isn't a mandatory part of my gaming equipment anymore.

I did use a game shark for the last few fights of Dragon Quest VIII though. I decided I'd rather sandpaper my eyeballs than spend 3 more hours leveling in that stupid, tedious, slow-as-molasses combat system.

Skulkraken
05-12-2008, 10:23 PM
By last few fights, do you mean the big villain from the storyline, or the extra boss that's unlocked when you beat the story for the first time? I've found that aside from that extra boss, Dragon Quest VIII has a pretty reasonable curve as long as you don't try to rush through everything.

Meh, I'm personally alright with the difficulty level of most games today. If I really want a challenge, I just switch to the game's Hard mode. Shouldn't the Normal difficulty level stay, well, normal?

AtmaWeapon
05-12-2008, 10:39 PM
I mean the big villain from the storyline. If by "don't rush through everything" you mean "spend hours hoarding items and leveling" then I agree with you. It's not helped by the fact that random encounters that would take 10 seconds in any other RPG take up to a minute to complete in that game. I felt like hot stuff because I tore through the stuff leading up to it with no troubles, then when I landed on that floating fortress thing my party got wiped by the first random encounter. In Final Fantasy it'd mean I have to gain 2 or 3 levels and adjust my equipment; in Dragon Quest it meant I needed to grind the casino for eq, then grind king metal slimes for hours to gain 10 or 15 levels. No thanks. :mad:

The ending was really good though, I was so happy :)

Skulkraken
05-12-2008, 10:56 PM
Just so you know, there's an extra ending that you can only get after you beat the game once, and requires beating a boss tougher than the one you fought. :p

By "don't rush through everything", I meant "wander around to complete sidequests and nab monsters for the monster arena". The monsters you recruit always get restored to full health after each battle (as long as they don't get killed), so you can get pretty far in the flying fortress by calling in golems, gigantes, and other stuff to beat the crap out of enemies.

Revfan9
05-13-2008, 03:42 AM
Admittedly I'm a bit babied when it comes to gaming, all of my experiences are with newer crap. I honestly can't even play newer games anymore. They're just so damn boring. Earlier today I started re-playing through MP3 on the highest difficulty level, and I'm literally avoiding energy and missile expansions just so there's the slightest bit of challenge to it. I only have 1 additional energy tank thus far, and I stopped playing just after beating Rundas. Only thing I'm worried about is that Morganathawdaglinzazoom guy in the Bryyo Leviathan, since you're required to waste your energy tanks on Hyper Mode. But that's beside the point.

Anyhow, back on topic, of course the difficulty of games is decreasing. EVERYTHING is. Sales are prioritized over everything else (Not that I'm blaming the developers for doing this, I wouldn't give a rats ass what the gamers thought if it meant I would walk home with a few more dollars) and quality takes a hit in order to appeal to the mass-market. This isn't just true with Video Games, it's happening with everything else too.

Aliem
05-13-2008, 03:45 AM
Yeah, pong is the hardest game I've ever played.

Revfan9
05-13-2008, 03:49 AM
Yeah, pong is the hardest game I've ever played.

I know, it's like, unbeatable. No matter how long you sit there, the score just keeps going up without end. It's craaaaazy.

MottZilla
05-13-2008, 04:29 PM
Some people still care about making good games you know. See a little title called Gears of War. While it has a Casual (noob) difficulty mode, it also has Hardcore and Insane levels. They work out pretty well for everyone I think.

Really that's the only way to go in most games, by having a n00b mode. The N00bs can play that, while no self-respecting gamer would play on n00b mode when they can do normal or hard modes.

Dragon
05-13-2008, 04:29 PM
The dumbing down of games really started with the Playstation and the introduction of the casual gamer, and I can only see it getting worse since the Wii expanded the market with even more people who never have played games before.

That said however, there are still many games for the hardcore, its just we have to look for them now. Gears of War and Halo 3 are difficult enough on the hardest setting (I don't see a problem if there is at least a choice to make the game hard), and GTA4's sandbox game allows for difficult single player experiences (like seeing how long you can last with 6 stars). Difficult games will never be the way they used to be in the old days, but the quest for impossible challenges is still out there, you just have to look.