Emulation - your views on it

[Dann Woolf]

In my opinion, if you emulate games that nobody's making money from, in theory it's alright to do it.

Like, old games that aren't being sold anymore, or games that are really rare or impossible to get the "right" way.

[MottZilla]

No, it isn't alright to do it. Justify it to yourself however you like. And you shouldn't use the phrase impossible to get. I'm certain the ROMs you downloaded are far from rare. You just don't want to spend the money to purchase the original cartridges and such. Honestly, we don't need topics like this. There is little point in it.

You want to download ROMs, fine. No one here is going to care or lose any sleep over it. If you agree or disagree with people downloading ROMs, again that's not going to stop anyone nor do they care.

There's nothing more to say. You're wrong if you believe what you are doing is legal (in countries like the US.) The big picture is that is costs alot of time and money to combat piracy. Thus someone downloading a game no longer in regular retail channels is not as important as those downloading games that are fresh from the presses. The End.

[Revfan9]

Ethics-wise? I honestly don't care. ;/

[MottZilla]

See, case and point right there. Nobody cares. If you were worried about the police busting in your door or feeling guilty just don't worry about it. You're about the only one worried about it.

[The_Amaster]

Quite honestly, if it's something that I can't buy anymore because they don't make it anymore, I sometimes download the version. But anything "modern" which I define as N64+, than yeah, it's just wrong.
Like, I have Earthbound on my computer because I'm really not cutting the company out of any money. I couldn't buy it anyway, so it's not like I could give then payment and am just choosing to steal.

[bobrocks95]

The process of emulating something is 100% legal. The process of downloading roms is, however, 100% illegal, even if you own the game. It's only legal if you yourself upload YOUR copy of the rom from YOUR game cartridge. I also agree with Amaster42.

Earthbound + eBay/Amazon = $80+

[rock_nog]

Illegal? Yes, but who gives a crap? I mean, I download a copy of Goldeneye, which I already own, so I can play it with my PC controller and not my crappy, banged up N64 controller, it's not even as if there's any potential market to be hurt there.

[MottZilla]

Quite honestly, if it's something that I can't buy anymore because they don't make it anymore, I sometimes download the version. But anything "modern" which I define as N64+, than yeah, it's just wrong.
Like, I have Earthbound on my computer because I'm really not cutting the company out of any money. I couldn't buy it anyway, so it's not like I could give then payment and am just choosing to steal.

Wrong. Even if it is before the N64 it is still "wrong" or illegal. Downloading Earthbound is wrong too. If it isn't on the Virtual Console yet it will be in the future. Just admit you stole it. Or atleast don't justify it.

No one will respect someone who justifies it by saying oh I didn't have a choice! Just say fuck them you don't care. We can respect that.

[The_Amaster]

If it isn't on the Virtual Console yet it will be in the future.
At which point I will buy it. Because Nintendo and the people who made it get that money, not some guy selling it on ebay for 4 times retail price.
They make money on the first sale. After that secondhand doesn't make them any more.

[Dragon]

I'd rather play games on the console they were made for with a controller myself... but as far as arguments go, emulation is a gray area... roms are illegal but nobody is going to hunt you down and arrest you for it (unless of course you somehow have a next gen emulator and are downloading new games). All in all I didn't know emulation was still big anymore.

As for old games, just make sure we are not talking about old Nintendo systems, as others have said Nintendo makes big bucks selling the classics on VC. If its not out, it eventually will be (at a snails pace for sure).

[rock_nog]

Not necessarily... Nintendo needs the rights to the game to release it on the virtual console. For instance, Goldeneye will never make it to the virtual console, which is a shame, because Goldeneye with a Gamecube controller would kick serious ass.

[Beldaran]

Downloading ROMS is obviously and unquestionably illegal.

Whether it is morally wrong depends entirely on your personal morality. I personally think it's wrong, but I have over 1000 ROMS. The reason is because I do not empathize with the victim of my crime.

Nintendo is not losing any money at all just because I have lots of SNES ROMS. Why? Because I'm not going to buy SNES games anymore. At all. I don't even have an SNES anymore. I've bought 2 SNES's in my life, and I've since sold them both. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on Nintenod products and I'm not interested enough to re-buy the old stuff. Also, buying a cartridge off of Ebay does not compensate Nintendo. I'm not going to pay some guy in Indiana $80 for a series of 1's and 0's that I can download for free.

One of the reasons I don't steal from grocery stores is because I empathize with the situation of business owners and I know that behavior would lead to a breakdown of society if everyone did that. However, I don't think downloading ROMS hurts anyone. Nintendo just really doesn't want you to, but I can't empathize with that so I don't give a crap.

[MottZilla]

Beldaran, when you buy a game Cartridge you are not buying "just 1s and 0s". You are buying a limited MaskROM IC, on a high quality PCB, with a high quality label in a high quality plastic case. You're not getting just some data. That's what happens when you buy a game on the Virtual Console. The VC screws you as you buy a limited license to use encrypted rom data to playthe game. So that's actually worse than buying a rom or 1s and 0s as you put it.

Emulation is not a gray area. It is perfectly legal. There is absolutely nothing illegal about it. Downloading ROM images of games is illegal as it's making an unauthorized copy. Unless ofcourse, you have permission. But if you take your game cartridges and extract the ROM image yourself it is perfectly legal.

As Beldaran said, huge companies aren't exactly what people give a shit about when they are a victim of crime. All I'm trying to make clear is that those of you in denial realize you're an idiot if you justify it by saying its old and think it's 100% ok to download roms. Not that anyone here cares what you do. But atleast be a man about it and justify it by saying "Fuck them, I don't give a shit". Or say nothing. Just don't hide behind the bullshit excuses.

[Beldaran]

when you buy a game Cartridge you are not buying "just 1s and 0s". You are buying a limited MaskROM IC, on a high quality PCB, with a high quality label in a high quality plastic case. You're not getting just some data.

Maybe so, but out of $60, about $3 covers all the components you listed. The other $57 is for 1's and 0's. So I think my point still stands.

[rock_nog]

I suspect that at least part of the problem is that legality and ethics are often used interchangably in the area of emulation. From a legal perspective, there is no question that downloading a ROM is a violation of the law. However, from an ethical perspective... If I already own a hard copy of the game, what does it matter whether I download the data from a website or if I extract the data myself?

It's actually an interesting query to ponder. On the one hand, my actions do not result in a financial loss to the company either way. On the other hand, I can think of a couple of arguments against this. One is that the end doesn't justify the means. The other is that, by downloading ROMs rather than extracting the data yourself, while you may not personally causing any financial loss to the company, you are, however, supporting and encouraging the unauthorized distribution of copyrighted material - an interesting ethical quandary, in my opinion.

Eh, as has been said time and time again, though, no one here really gives a rat's ass. And of course this whole situation changes when you're talking about ROMs for games you don't otherwise legally own, but I tend to only ever download ROMs for the sake of being able to play mods of games I already own, anyway.

[MottZilla]

No Beldaran, it doesn't. 3$ maybe cover raw material, but the cost of producing the plastic molds, the pcbs, and more importantly the MaskROMs is far more than that. Why do you think some were so eager to switch to Optical Discs? It was because it cost money to make those cartridges and took time. Optical Discs are cheaper and faster/easier to make.

Now as far as ebay, yes you are just paying some ubber inflated price.

[ctrl-alt-delete]

Beldaran, when you buy a game Cartridge you are not buying "just 1s and 0s". You are buying a limited MaskROM IC, on a high quality PCB, with a high quality label in a high quality plastic case. You're not getting just some data. That's what happens when you buy a game on the Virtual Console. The VC screws you as you buy a limited license to use encrypted rom data to playthe game. So that's actually worse than buying a rom or 1s and 0s as you put it.

Emulation is not a gray area. It is perfectly legal. There is absolutely nothing illegal about it. Downloading ROM images of games is illegal as it's making an unauthorized copy. Unless ofcourse, you have permission. But if you take your game cartridges and extract the ROM image yourself it is perfectly legal.

As Beldaran said, huge companies aren't exactly what people give a shit about when they are a victim of crime. All I'm trying to make clear is that those of you in denial realize you're an idiot if you justify it by saying its old and think it's 100% ok to download roms. Not that anyone here cares what you do. But atleast be a man about it and justify it by saying "Fuck them, I don't give a shit". Or say nothing. Just don't hide behind the bullshit excuses.

Two things:

1. Do Nintendo game guides still say, "It is unlawful to copy this game for any reason, even to make a backup?" I know that has NOTHING to do with whether or not it is legal...just seems like I remember somebody once saying that they say that.

2. Everyone is taking the pussy way out. I will be honest. If my computer will run it, I will emulate it. If I can run it on a handheld/console without tearing my shit open and putting in a modchip, I will emulate it. I have spent thousands of dollars on Nintendo shit...Fuck them. I bought 20 NDS games before I got an R4, and I will not buy another one unless for some reason I am forced(NDS upgrade that blocks R4/New NDS that emulation has not been perfected yet.). I do not give a shit about them, or any other company that complains because they only make a million dollars a day but not 1.1 million dollars a day.

That being said...

I love Nintendo. I support them however I can.

Fuck the MPAA. I go to movie theaters often. I download movies sometimes.

Fuck the RIAA. I always download CDs. They can blow me.

Fuck anybody else that denies doing any of the above because they are scared that Reggie-Fils Aime is going to kick in their front door Chuck Norris style...stop being pussys.

Trading music/movies on a college network? You will get caught.

Selling CDs, movies, or games that you downloaded? You will get caught.

Other than that, safeguard your computer, and download away.

[rock_nog]

It's rather a moot point, though, anyway, isn't it? I mean, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with many NES/SNES/N64 games that I'd want to play but I don't already own a copy of, anyway. So I mean, yes, I might be a pussy in only downloading ROMs of games I already own, but I can't think of any good reason to download games that I don't already own.

[Beldaran]

Why do you think some were so eager to switch to Optical Discs? It was because it cost money to make those cartridges and took time. Optical Discs are cheaper and faster/easier to make.

Then why didn't the price of games go down?




2. Everyone is taking the pussy way out.

I'm not. Did you read my post?

[rock_nog]

Two reasons, Beldaran - one is that the demand for games was high enough that they could probably make a better profit at $60 a game than they could by lowering the price. Second, the cost of the actual media may have gone down drastically, but the cost of game development has skyrocketed in recent years.

[MottZilla]

Beldaran, the price of games DID go down. N64 games cost as much as 80$! The same happened in the NES and SNES days. Large ROM sizes and the cost of battery or eeprom components to save games added to the cost.

When Playstation and Sega Saturn came around, prices fell to what we were used for quite some time. 40$ and 50$ for new games. But then with the Xbox 360 and PS3 they decided to jack it up 10 bucks. But the switch to optical media did make manufacturing costs go down.

[Revfan9]

Then why didn't the price of games go down?

Because they're greedy bastards?

The only reason that Nintendo gives a shit at all is because they don't want any profits from their shitty VC system to be taken. That's it.

[Mak-X]

If we're talking about today's games, Xbox 360 and PS3 games are sold at $60 because they feel they can justify an extra $10, and development costs for HD systems are much higher. A store might make only $15 off of a game while the rest goes back to the publisher, which is why Gamestop is very big on used games.

If we're talking about old games on cartridges, they were expensive.

NES games used to cost $60
The large SNES RPGs like Final Fantasy III, Chrono Trigger, and Secret of Mana would cost about $70-$80 when they came out.
N64 games were $60, with 3rd party games at $70.

Playstation games were on CDs and cost much less than N64 games, about $40-$50 a game. Sony's rerelease Greatest Hits line was $20, while Nintendo's rerelease Player's Choice line was $40. Eventually Nintendo lowered prices on cartridges that brought 3rd party game prices down.

Prices went down because the storage media got cheaper, then went back up with the Xbox 360 and PS3 because of development costs, and a new price standard was set.


As for emulation, I liked what someone said once, emulate the classics that you can't play anymore, but anything else is straight up piracy.

[rock_nog]

As for emulation, I liked what someone said once, emulate the classics that you can't play anymore, but anything else is straight up piracy.
That statement makes it sound like it's worse for me to download a copy of Goldeneye, for which I already own both an N64 and the game itself, than it would be for me to download Earthbound, in which case I own neither the game nor the system. I actually have a ROM of Goldeneye on my computer at the moment, which is why I bring it up.

[ctrl-alt-delete]

Then why didn't the price of games go down?

I'm not. Did you read my post?

Sorry. When I said everyone, I was talking about the new kids on the block.

All of us AGN oldtimers were up front. Should have made that clear. You know I love you, twin.


That statement makes it sound like it's worse for me to download a copy of Goldeneye, for which I already own both an N64 and the game itself, than it would be for me to download Earthbound, in which case I own neither the game nor the system. I actually have a ROM of Goldeneye on my computer at the moment, which is why I bring it up.

Either way, it is illegal. For you to legally have a rom of Goldeneye, you have to make your OWN backup.

[rock_nog]

I never said it wasn't illegal. I don't legitimately have a ROM of Goldeneye. But, in the grand scheme of things, I paid for a copy of Goldeneye, so I really don't give a shit.

[MottZilla]

Either way, it is illegal. For you to legally have a rom of Goldeneye, you have to make your OWN backup.

Wrong. The process of downloading the ROM is illegal. But just having the ROM isn't illegal as he bought the game. While you could argue that it's illegal since he didn't produce it, the end effect is the same as if he had. Just remember, virtually no one made their own NES backups, and I bet all of you have some NES roms. SNES and Genesis are the first times it was practical for the average user to backup their cartridges.

[Revfan9]

Last time I read up on my copyright law, possessing any copyrighted ROM image on your PC which you did not backup yourself is illegal. I could be wrong though, I'm not good at remembering things like that. I would look it up if I cared enough.

Then again, it's not like you're ever going to get any charges pressed against you for downloading ROMs. If they're going to go after anyone, it's going to be the huge sites that give out millions of files every day. They've simply got bigger fish to fry.

[vegeta1215]

I have SNES ROMs for games I actually own, and I am alright with that. I am currently enjoying re-playing Chrono Trigger on my Gamecube using Snes9xGX and the SD Media Launcher I got a few weeks ago.

[rock_nog]

Last time I read up on my copyright law, possessing any copyrighted ROM image on your PC which you did not backup yourself is illegal. I could be wrong though, I'm not good at remembering things like that. I would look it up if I cared enough.

Then again, it's not like you're ever going to get any charges pressed against you for downloading ROMs. If they're going to go after anyone, it's going to be the huge sites that give out millions of files every day. They've simply got bigger fish to fry.
Yes, Revfan, as has been stated countless times already, it is illegal to possess any ROM image which you did not rip yourself. On the other hand, you're right, you're unlikely to have charges pressed against you, and especially if you've already compensated the developers for their effort, who gives a shit?

[MottZilla]

First off, they have to prove you didn't rip them yourself. Thus they have to prove you downloaded them or something else. And it's the same end result. The last 4 words of your post rock_nog, sum this all up perfectly. Who gives a shit? Nobody. That's who.