Dungeon design?

[bluedeath]

Can somone design me a first level dungeon Forest Temple? using Pure Extreme graphics thanks :)I will do the custom boss at the end.

[Pineconn]

What's up with this Sudden Dungeon Design Laziness Syndrome, or SDDLS (pronounced "saddles"), lately? This is probably the fourth dungeon request in the past two months. Anyway, I'm far too busy with school, my own projects, and the upcoming AGNX events to help out.

[bobrocks95]

I hope I am not considered an SDDLS carrier. I know that I am inefficient and awful when it comes to dungeon design. Plus at the moment I'm planning on giving full co-developer recognition to Amaster42 for his work.

[beefster09]

I think you guys need to learn your style... or something like that. Dungeon design is hard to learn, but once you know your style and get good at it, it becomes really fun. Check out my intermediate dungeon design tips over at PZC here. (http://www.purezc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35481) Hopefully it can point you in the right direction

If you never practice and experiment, you'll never learn it. I used to be in your boat until I learned how to make decent dungeons. I went through the making of 12 or so, at least, really crappy dungeons until I figured out how to make decent dungeons. I still haven't mastered overworld design, though.

[mild hypocrisy]And why don't we try to be a little more creative with when each type dungeon is placed? The standard order is getting really boring and old. (y'know- foresty, fiery, watery, windy) :mischief:[/mild hypocrisy]

[Revfan9]

I mean, really. I never understood the point of these threads. Unless you're doing a group quest or something (Which judging by the nature of the first post, I doubt this greatly), isn't the point of building a quest to make your own?

Also to make a note to beefster: PZC is currently unviewable by guests :p

So it's not a good idea to link stuff to PZC as a reference.

[beefster09]

Oh. I didn't know that. I guess I'll just copy-quote it.


Recently I've picked up some basic pointers to making good dungeons. I would like to share them because I think I finally understand good dungeon making concepts. Here they are:

Taunt the player. Basically to show or imply later parts of the dungeon, later solutions that are currently unreachable, etc.
Avoid symmetry unless you have a good reason not to.
Use obstacles and debris to fill the screen, but give the player a reasonable amount of walking space.
Objects within the dungeon need to match pretty closely to the overall feel of the dungeon.
Organic dungeons need to look natural.
Use split-level floors. They're a lot more interesting than single-level screens.
Use freeform dungeons. 'Nuff said.
Make 35-45% of your screens "active" screens and distribute active rooms evenly.
Force the player to backtrack, even if only by a little.
Provide enough choices within the dungeon so the player doesn't feel restricted.
Rule #1: do not make dungeons any bigger (or smaller) than necessary. It makes it REAALLY hard to fulfill the active/passive balance if they are too big or too small.

Comment on mine, tell us yours, or get out. This is for paying customers only. :P

[bluedeath]

The fact that I suck balls at making dungeons. But sorry :S thanks for the link beefster it helped me a bit.

[Anikom15]

Well I finished one. Very linear, although there's a cool secret and some awesome Boss Music.

[Revfan9]

Another quick tip: You don't need to make a big dungeon to make a long dungeon.

Take for example Cerbat Shrine in Hero of Dreams. In terms of the number of screens, it's actually quite small. However, it's a dungeon with a lot of stuff to do and it takes longer to complete than most of those "Let's make a temple with 8 floors!" dungeons. Why? Because, if you actually take a look at the individual screens and see how they work, you'll find that almost every screen has at least 2-3 different things that you have to do there, and those that do not are screens that you have to walk back and forth through a lot just to get to the places where there's something new that you have to do.

I myself like to think of the player's progress through the dungeon as a long, straight string. Now, you can make your dungeon just a big, long corridor, but that would be a bit boring. Your job as a dungeon designer is to decide how long that string is, and bend and shape it to fit inside of your dungeon.

Now a much more literal way to determine the theoretical "Progressional Length" of your dungeon is to look at every screen and determine how many times that player must do something on that screen (Solving a puzzle, finding an item, or just walking through because they need to backtrack to do something else), in the minimal number absolutely necessary in order to complete it (That means, not counting when they are just wandering around trying to figure out what to do next). After which, just add all of the numbers together. How can this be used?

Well, let's say that Bob has just made a medium-sized, 30 screen dungeon, called the "Temple of Bobbiness". However, every last room in this dungeon is either just a screen that you walk through once, or a dead-end room with an item/boss/whatever in it. In pure theoretical terms, the Progressional Length of the Temple of Bobbiness is 30 (Of course, this is speaking only theoretically, as obviously if the player walked into a dead-end room, they would have to leave and thus would have to walk through that same room again that they walked through to enter the dead-end room).

However, Rob has just finished his 4 screen dungeon, called the "Really small big place". But unlike Bob's dungeon, Rob's dungeon forces the player to do 10 things on each screen (Don't ask me how he accomplished this, I'm not entirely sure myself. But let's keep going on with it for the sake of example). Thus, the progressional length of the Really Small Big Place is 40. Even though Bob's temple is far larger, Rob's temple is longer.

Of course, this doesn't exactly mean that Rob's dungeon is superior to Bob's overall, it just means that Rob's is longer. Progressional Length is a purely analytical term that is a general way to determine how long it will take the player to complete the dungeon, and it does nothing else. It ignores factors such as screen design, linearity, etc. Those other factors are still very important, so don't ignore them.

And beefster, you ass. I'm the one who coined Active/Passive screens! :P

[The_Amaster]

Revfan's examples also make another point, and an important one at that.
Both the Temple of Bobbiness and the Really Small Big place are going to be really boring. Players hate just walking through room after room without doing anything, and players hate seeing the same room/s a bazillion times as they backtrack, and backtrack, and keep coming through the same areas over and over. A good balance is a must.

[beefster09]

And beefster, you ass. I'm the one who coined Active/Passive screens! :P I actually meant to credit you, but I couldn't remember who coined it, so I just left crediting out. :shrug: Heh. :whap: (the one on the right is me)

[bobrocks95]

This thread is calling out to me to make a temple of bobbiness. It seems as though I was destined.