Too Much Faith in... Faith

[Icey]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_re_us/daughter_s_death_prayer

So basically this woman's 11 year old daughter died from a treatable form of diabetes because she chose to pray for her health rather than take her to a hospital.

And, apparently the fact the girl died did not shake her (ludicrously blind) faith:



Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

Negligence, anyone?

Edit: It was just pointed out to me that this was my 1000th post. Hooray! And it only took... about 7 years.

[Breaker]

The world is a cruel place and the ignorant make up a large portion of it.

[Feasul]

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

Seriously, if your daughter gets sick, you don't take her to the doctor, she dies, and yet you still think that praying was the right way to go, then you're a fanatic.

[Skulkraken]

She's not just a fanatic; she's a fanatic who has a very shallow interpretation of the Bible and healing. The point isn't to shun the help of others; the point is to be willing to accept that help and to seek out help for those who need it.

[ShadowTiger]

I'm reminded of a joke pertaining a bit to this issue.

A man was stuck on his roof after rising floodwaters had trapped him there. The water does not seem to be stopping rising in the least, and the man must resort to prayer. Feeling the most at peace with his religious values as he can, he prays to God for a means to prolong his life when a speedboat comes along and offers him a lift. He declines, claiming that God will provide a means out of his dire situation. A half hour passes and the water is up to his waist. Fearing death, he prays even harder. A helicopter arises from the horizon and speeds past him, stopping along the way to lower a rope ladder to him. Again, he declines, having faith that God will provide a miraculous rescue.

When he drowns, he ascends to the realm of the clouds to meet his creator face to face.

"Why didn't you save me like I had been praying, o mighty lord? I had been a religious man all my life, and true to your word!"

"Oi, vhat are yeh talkin about, my son? I sent yeh a helicopter, I sent yeh a boat, ... "

[Mitsukara]

Considering how many years went by that my parents never took me to a doctor- the only time in 10 years was to an emergency room when my ear infection got so bad that it started bleeding, no sooner- this could've been me, with different luck. I don't know. I hope not, but who knows? My parents thought laying your hands on someone and saying made up words could literally, physically heal them.

I hate people who do harmful things out of ignorance. I know that from their perspective they don't see what they're doing wrong, I know they didn't intend anything like this, but this is the painful, horrible, so fucking stupid that it needs to be stopped beforehand sort of ignorance. These people are utter morons.

The thing is, this did happen because of religion. The distinction is that there's more than one sort of religion, and this is the stupid, wrong, harmful sort. The kind where you make stupid decisions and act illogically in ways that could hurt people, using "faith" to be sure everything's going to be all right, when in fact it's just you being a looney in denial. But when it comes to taking care of sick people, or any number of other life and death situations, that denial carries a terrible price.

What makes this especially wrong is that it was such an easily fixable problem. It was just diabetes. That girl would've lived if nearly any sane person had been responsible for her, but instead these dumb fucks chose to live in denial and killed her. It's their fault, and as miserable as it will make their lives, as hellish as it would be, I hope they realize their mistake. Maybe it'll make a good example and stop someone else from doing the same thing all over again.

It's a sad, horrible thing; I'm sorry for the pain they must be going through and all, and I really do hope they can put their lives together and live happily so long as they don't keep causing stupid, needless harm... but I'm far more sorry that someone died just because her parents were idiots.

A needless tragedy born of human unintelligence, ignorance, and denial. This needs to be learned from.

[Archibaldo]

I guess a lot of people when they prey they expect direct results, but like ST's joke, God gives chances to make the results not exact ones. Just like in Even Almighty. When some one prays for courage, does God make them more courageous or give them an opportunity to be courageous? Some times you have to meet him half way.

[Grasshopper]

"Oi, vhat are yeh talkin about, my son? I sent yeh a helicopter, I sent yeh a boat, ... "
God is Australian?

[rock_nog]

Man, religious people are so demanding! God's a busy man - got an entire universe to run. And you come along, asking him to take time out of his busy schedule to cure an illness that's easily treatable? I'm sorry, but if you're the kind of person who believes in God, how about you try and show Him a little respect? Here he is, Master of all the Universe, and these people are treating him like the goddamn maid!

This is just one more example of why I don't get religion.

[Aegix Drakan]

...*facepalm*

...uh...if your kid is sick, you take them to the doctor. God doesn't just point his finger and *ZAP* you're healed. Like in ST's story, you get little "nudges".

But seriously, what the hell is wrong with these parents that they didn't do everything they could in order to help their kid? They'd better have learned from this.

[Lilith]

---

[phattonez]

Man, religious people are so demanding! God's a busy man - got an entire universe to run. And you come along, asking him to take time out of his busy schedule to cure an illness that's easily treatable? I'm sorry, but if you're the kind of person who believes in God, how about you try and show Him a little respect? Here he is, Master of all the Universe, and these people are treating him like the goddamn maid!

This is just one more example of why I don't get religion.

There is something called the Fear of The Lord, but many people treat him like a doormat. I usually petition, but I always keep in mind that whatever happens will happen.

[Dechipher]

Hopefully they go to jail and pray about not getting fucked in the ass.

By God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

[The_Amaster]

We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do.

Uh, no. See, that would have been getting here treatment and helping her, which I'm sure you knew how to do.
*mutters*
Idiots

[rock_nog]

By God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
The Lord works in mysterious ways - Bubba and Bertha were sent to jail for a reason, to do His work on these sorry bastards.

[Aliem]

Fundies say the darndest things.

[Prrkitty]

God is Australian?

Uhh... no dear... Jewish :)

[erm2003]

Why is it that people who are that faithful can't believe that God gave us doctors? If they have the knowledge to help heal people, maybe they were given that ability divinely and thus it should be taken advantage of. I think the parents should be held responsible for their death - especially since it was noted other family members tried to do something about it. The article also noted that the parents were faithful, but didn't really belong to a church, so it's not like someone was teaching them to rely on God and not go to a doctor. That was their own decision, and therefore they are responsible for their daughter's death.

[Feasul]

You know, as much as I would love to see these parents in jail, it just occured to me that I'm not sure how much they can be charged with. In order to be criminally responsible for their daughter's death, wouldn't the prosecution have to prove that the parents had good reason to suspect that their daughter's condition was fatal? For all they knew they might have just thought she was normally ill. You know, the article said symptoms would probably have included "nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness." They might have just thought she had the flu or something. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the prosecution make a case, but I just don't know if it'd stick.

[DarkDragoonX]

Yet another reason why I avoid religion like the plague (ba-dum-ching).

What I find amusing is that these people always attribute negative external effects/objects to the devil and/or god... that hurricane/earthquake/volcanic eruption was obviously god's wrath against the faithless heretics. Fossils are clearly a clever ruse perpetuated by satan. And so on and so forth. Yet positive outside effects/objects are NEVER attributed to god. Antibiotics certainly can't be divine inspiration. The miracle cure for your horrible disease can't possibly be a divine gift. These people are always so keen on seeing god's (or satan's) hand in everything bad, but they hardly ever think god see at work in anything good.

It's actually really funny.

[rock_nog]

Yet another reason why I avoid religion like the plague (ba-dum-ching).

What I find amusing is that these people always attribute negative external effects/objects to the devil and/or god... that hurricane/earthquake/volcanic eruption was obviously god's wrath against the faithless heretics. Fossils are clearly a clever ruse perpetuated by satan. And so on and so forth. Yet positive outside effects/objects are NEVER attributed to god. Antibiotics certainly can't be divine inspiration. The miracle cure for your horrible disease can't possibly be a divine gift. These people are always so keen on seeing god's (or satan's) hand in everything bad, but they hardly ever think god see at work in anything good.

It's actually really funny.
That's actually a well-known psychological phenomenon known as the self-serving bias. We tend to attribute internal causes to good things, whereas we attribute external causes to bad things. For instance, someone might attribute their good grades to hard work and studying, whereas they might attribute poor grades to a disliked teacher.

[Beldaran]

Didn't you guys read Starkist's thread? Faith is perfectly reasonable. He said so himself.

[phattonez]

These people thought that God would do whatever asked them. It wasn't that their faith was wrong, it's that they expected something unreasonable.

[Beldaran]

These people thought that God would do whatever asked them. It wasn't that their faith was wrong, it's that they expected something unreasonable.

And they used the exact same logic Starkist does when he expects his god to take him to heaven. It's all so logical and realistic!

[Skulkraken]

As logical and realistic as making fun of both them and Starkist?

[Aegix Drakan]

Fossils are clearly a clever ruse perpetuated by satan.

...vaaaaat? ...People actually BELIEVE that?!?

Holy shit... ...anyone who believes that is TOTALLY stupid.


There is a line between having faith...and going overboard to the point where you sound like an idiot.

[rock_nog]

...vaaaaat? ...People actually BELIEVE that?!?

Holy shit... ...anyone who believes that is TOTALLY stupid.


There is a line between having faith...and going overboard to the point where you sound like an idiot.
Well, your two other alternatives aren't much better - either God put them here to test us, or... I dunno, some weird theory about the Flood, and bones fossilizing much more rapidly than previously believed, and rock strata being completely useless, and radioactive dating procedures being full of crap... I'm sorry, I'm normally very good at playing devil's advocate for these sorts of things, but even I'm at a loss here in terms of making it sound halfway credible.

[DarkDragoonX]

...vaaaaat? ...People actually BELIEVE that?!?

Sadly, yes. It's enough to make you cry.

[Icey]

even I'm at a loss here in terms of making it sound halfway credible.

And yet the magic of blind faith is it makes it 100% credible!

Seriously, the stupid shit some people believe and do in the name of God... it makes me sick. I realize not everyone who's religious sacrificies their logical faculties, but some do, and it's very detrimental.

[AtmaWeapon]

Keep in mind that just as science tends to cluster around several feasible theorems when there is no clear evidence to support one over the other, religion tends to cluster into several different groups based on different interpretations of the semantics of words written in an ancient language then translated to a modern language.

Some people take it literally when it is said that God grants all things you pray for. In my opinion it comes down to asking for reasonable things and recognizing that sometimes God wants you to do a little work to get what you asked for.

I really can't understand where in the Bible some people think God said "Everything I do has to look like a miracle -- if you are wet and need to be dried you will be condemned as a sinner if you so much as reach for a towel." I can somewhat understand people who reject blood transfusions, but I cannot fathom what motivates people to reject all forms of medical treatment because they feel like there's going to be a miracle. You better believe if my kid's sick they're going to the doctor unless Gabriel comes down and gives me a magic hat and some golden tablets explicitly forbidding me from doing so, then tells me stories about Jesus visiting the Native Americans. Then I'll probably destroy a printing press and get shot by an angry mob but so long as the Lord's will is done!

[Feasul]

And they used the exact same logic Starkist does when he expects his god to take him to heaven. It's all so logical and realistic!

Well, at least believing God will take you to Heaven when you die doesn't directly contradict observable facts, like, oh, I dunno, your daughter dying. I just can't understand how the fact that the prayer didn't work leads them to still conclude that prayer does work. Boggles the mind.

[rock_nog]

Well, it doesn't change things, but I'm glad to hear this: the couple has, in fact, been charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23882698/

Quite frankly, these are disgusting people, and I really hope the charges stick. My greatest hope is that this serves as a wake-up call regarding these idiots who don't believe in providing their children with basic care. I'm sorry, but I'm so sick of this religious crap about faith-based healing and whatnot. If you want to refuse medical treatment yourself because of your religion, fine, be my guest, we'll be better off without you, but damn it, doing this to a child, in my eyes, is no different than starving the child.

[MottZilla]

Having faith in something you cannot even test that it exists is called insanity. You cannot prove "God" exists. So hedging your life or death bet on the idea that God exists and does so in the way you imagine is retarded.

I am not against the idea of God. However I most certainly am against the idea that any of you mother fuckers know anything about God and what he/she wants or says. Religion on earth is largely for power and control. Some isn't, but largely that is what it is.

Anyway, sadly the number of people that "have faith" is alarmingly high. If only we could convince more of them to commit suicide and go to their God and leave us alone.

[Skulkraken]

Do you have specific examples of religions that are for power and control, and ones that aren't? I'm interested in hearing about them.

In any case, I'd rather not want to see large numbers of "faithful" committing suicide, if only because religions that encourage suicide tend to also encourage adding large numbers of non-believers to the body count.

[MottZilla]

Well if you haven't been living under a rock, radical Islam is a method for terrorists to gain power and control over their followers. However at the same time there are others that practice it of free will and do not hurt anyone.

Lets just hope there is a grand plague that reduces the human population by about 75%, and that those people that die are the ones that were too busy praying to God to save them. :p