Insanity

[Beldaran]

And now, some crazy ass holes. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=540453&in_page_id=1811)

I'm not putting this in religious debate because, to be fair, the catholic church disapproves of these events. So I'm not using this as a "religious people are insane" bludgeon. However, I am submitting it as Exhibit A that people are morons.

[Dechipher]

Mel Gibson eat your heart out.

[Icey]

...

Terrible.

[The_Amaster]

Holy crap, man. I don't care what your beliefs are, that's just stupid. What's the reasoning behind this, "Jesus died to give us a better life, so now we're going to torture and main ourselves in his honor." ?

[XMuppetSB]

OH MY GOD! According to the article, dozens of Filipinos (including 15 year old boy, and an 18 year old girl) were nailed to crosses, just like Jesus. :shakeno: But unlike Jesus, those people killed on Good Friday didn't die for other people's sins. Anyway, it just seems wrong!

[Breaker]

OH MY GOD! According to the article, dozens of Filipinos (including 15 year old boy, and an 18 year old girl) were nailed to crosses, just like Jesus. :shakeno: But unlike Jesus, those people killed on Good Friday didn't die for other people's sins. Anyway, it just seems wrong!

Nobody was killed. Ask your parents to read you the article.

[Feasul]

Wow. Just, wow. I'd be fine with it except for the 15 year old boy. I mean, that's barely old enough to be able to give informed consent to have sex, how's he going to give informed consent to be nailed to a cross especially when everyone around him is probably talking about how great and noble it is to do it. If the adults want to mutilate themselves, go for it, but leave the kids out of it.

[phattonez]

I think I've seen a documentary about these people. They want to know what Jesus went through. If that's the only way that you can imagine something sharp going through your body and then having to struggle to breathe, then more power to you. As for me, I think I'll live my life without having had any nails through my wrists.

[Starkist]

Careful, you'll give the emo kids ideas.

[moocow]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

[Dechipher]

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't think this is a big deal? I've seen tons of easter plays in which people pretend to re-enact the crucification of Christ, and I think this is a much more accurate way to understand how it felt at the time. If people are consenting to it (which, it appears as though they are) then more power to them. In addition, I'm sure there are practices all around the world that we might consider barbaric, but culturally are necessary (such as a young man's rite of passage in Africa.)
I wouldn't want to do it, but if it works for these people then great.

[Skulkraken]

Stuff like that is actually pretty common anywhere that was heavily influenced by the Spanish and their missionaries. It's a local tradition around here to carry life-size replicas of the cross up a mountain (but no one around here actually nails themselves to the cross like the people in the article). It's basically to follow along with the Stations of the Cross.

[Icey]

The mutilation is the problem, not the other parts of the re-enactment. If you want to re-enact the other details without causing physical harm to someone, especially a child (yes, a 15 year old is a child incapable of logical consent), then I have no problem with it. This is pretty disturbing.

[me2]

I've seen this on the National Geographic channel. They do this every year. And, personally, I find no problem in people voluntarily sacrificing their bodies for their religion at all. It may be maniacal and painful, but it's part of their culture and us westerners have no say in another culture's traditions.

I also partly agree with Icey's statement about fifteen year olds not being capable of logical consent, but that's just because I consider myself an exception. ;)

[The_Amaster]

Wait, Me2, you're 15?
*looks at diamonds*
So you joined this forum when you were 8??

[Aegix Drakan]

I've heard about this a few years ago.

Hey, if you want to know how it felt like, then go ahead. I think it's quite extreme and over the top, but if you're a consenting adult, then fine.

...That being said, a 15 year old is NOT a consenting adult. There is no way he should have been allowed to do that. ...Whoever the parents are...they should be charged with something.

[biggiy05]

...That being said, a 15 year old is NOT a consenting adult. There is no way he should have been allowed to do that. ...Whoever the parents are...they should be charged with something.

The laws are different in every country. Just because you have to be 18 to buy cigarettes or consent to something doesn't mean it's that way all over the world. The government isn't going to press charges because it's how they worship.

[Dechipher]

Wait, Me2, you're 15?
*looks at diamonds*
So you joined this forum when you were 8??

That's the word on the street.

[me2]

Wait, Me2, you're 15?
*looks at diamonds*
So you joined this forum when you were 8??

Yeah, somewhere around 9 or 10. I was just that badass. And my 16th is coming up...

[AtmaWeapon]

I know, our culture is clearly the superior one and we should go down there and spread the light of our beliefs to them, right? Right?

I see that some in the thread are able to suspend their ethnocentrism for a moment and consider that this is another culture, and everyone involved is doing this for reasons that they find sane and necessary to society. Consensual mutilation is part of rites of passage in most societies, and in many others it may not be a rite of passage but many people participate for their own reasons (see: tattoos in our own society). I'm not saying I think it's a good idea to do what these people are doing, but hey if no one's being harmed against their will then I see no reason to feel all superior about it.

Preemptive Godwin's Law strike against cultural relativism: "The Nazi party felt like genocide was necessary for society, do you feel like they had a right to believe so since it was part of their 'religion'?" The oppression of citizens by the Nazi party was non-consensual. Had the Jews made a public announcement to the tune of, "We are a menace to Germany and as such we have decided to allow them to revoke our basic human rights." then I suppose it's nobody's business what happened to them. Had it been limited to Germany then it would have questionable whether military force should have been brought about, but since it was coupled with an attempt to conquer Europe by force the Allies were completely justified at striking out. Keep in mind that Saddam Hussein was just as guilty of attempted genocide as Hitler, yet many feel that is no justification for the war in Iraq.

[Icey]

I've already made clear that most children are not capable of consent. Let the adults mutilate themselves all they want. Not like I'm going to do anything to stop these people from doing this, but I reserve the right to call it stupid regardless of "cultural relativism". Just like I reserve the right to call things in "my own culture", like tattoos, stupid for the same reason. And your arguments with genocide and war aren't really valid, as I don't think anyone is suggesting we should go and take over the PI to stop this from happening, or impose our views by force. But to say we don't have a right to express our views just because we weren't raised in the same enviornment? Please.

[AtmaWeapon]

Why is our definition of "adult" the correct one? In some cultures (http://www.jewishgateway.com/library/rituals/), passage to adulthood is recognized as early as 13 or 14, and it hasn't really stopped them from participating in modern society. In some cultures, children don't have the luxury of free time and they are typically thrust into the roles of adulthood (such as hunting and warfare) much earlier than in ours. It comes from necessity, and when a child is prepared to enter adulthood early they make the transition well.

I take no offense to your opinion of the act itself, but it's silly to claim it's wrong because of a violation of the laws of consent; if a 15-year-old is considered old enough for consensual self-mutilation in the Philippines, then that's the end of it. The act did not occur in America, nor were these people raised in America, so whether you want to believe it or not their views of many things will clash quite violently with yours.

Comparisons to genocide and war were made to shut the door on hyperbolic knee-jerk arguments I expected from other parties.

I'm not really angry here, but my last few semesters I had to take anthropology courses and I was surprised to find I was quite interested in them. There's several practices worldwide that I find barbaric and I feel sorry for those that participate in them, but it's important that we let these cultures develop on their own instead of stomping on them and forcing our values upon them. Undisturbed cultures can teach us much about humanity, and it's important to let other cultures develop on their own.

The only hypocritical thing I found is that many anthropologists support suppression of any form of female genital mutilation in any culture, whereas similar mutilation of males falls under the same "study but do not change" protections, but that has little to do with this.

[Icey]

I've taken anthro and I'm fully aware that people in other countries are often forced to face much more adult obligations and responsibilities earlier, and often do so effectively. Actually it's kind of regrettable that many college students in the US seem incapable of most adult responsibilities. I'm not really arguing that it's wrong from a legal standpoint, or even a cultural one. I simply doubt they have the experience and the perspective to realize what a major decision that is... and I have biases against children in general that might be considered "ageist".

[AtmaWeapon]

I suppose I take the opposing viewpoint because I feel like at 15 I was quite capable of managing myself but I was also aware that it was most convenient to remain under the care of my parents until later. I share your observation that there are many people in their 20s who have yet to come to grips with the fact that they can't let their parents bail them out all the time.

Another thing that contributes is I'm becoming more of an isolationist and wish our foreign policy would be to provide aid but not military support. A side-effect of this viewpoint is that I feel like if some country decides that 8-year-olds are adults and it works for them, I have the right to gasp and say it's an outrage but I'd really rather just let them run their country and I'll probably avoid tourism.

I'm slightly disturbed by the activities of these people, and honestly I'm not really sure Jesus would take it as a sign of faith (I'm thinking he's smacking his forehead and saying "I did it so you didn't have to! UGH Dad I see why you get so ill!") But hey, people fast for many religions, and it seems that to many pain is a release of sin. I fail to see though why this is a spectacular event in the face of some of the things that a devout Jainist would do.

[Beldaran]

I'm not making a grand, objective condemnation of their culture. I'm just saying that my personal opinion is that they are idiots. I don't think they should be forced to stop, but from my perspective, their behavior is ridiculous and revolting.

[Mitsukara]

I just realized what a terrible pun you made. "Crazy ass holes", with a space, like holes from the crucification thing.

But yeah, good ol' crazy religious obsession driving people to harm themselves in terrible ways they'll probably regret years later. Not a case of "good for them". If they're really sure, I guess it's their right to do and all, but... don't expect me to applaud or bow.

Now, there's a certain question of whether the teenagers involved are mentally developed enough to realize WTF, but it's possible they get it. I mean, if you aren't smart enough to be sure about having gaping holes put in your body at age 15, what's going to make you any smarter at age 18? Or 25? Or 40? Maybe experience. Well, they've certainly had that now, so it's up to them to figure out whether this is really what they want to be doing with their lives.

Then again, if they were pressured into it, that pisses me off and someone needs to be stopped. But I don't have enough information to see if this is really the case or not, much less any kind of authority to do anything but hold opinions on the situation, and I'd be an ass to form opinions based on what-if ideas for which I have no evidence. Or so I feel.

[AtmaWeapon]

I'm not making a grand, objective condemnation of their culture. I'm just saying that my personal opinion is that they are idiots. I don't think they should be forced to stop, but from my perspective, their behavior is ridiculous and revolting.I can't argue with that point because honestly I kind of agree.

[Skulkraken]

My mom's entire family is from the Philippines, and based on the stories she has about what life is like there, being hurt through self-mutilation is honestly the least of most Filipinos' worries.

The Philippines is a place where crime and corruption run rampant. Police will often completely ignore crimes unless the victims pay them bribes, $100 is literally worth killing (or kidnapping) for, groups like the Abu Sayaf and MILF cause trouble, and no real middle class exists. I believe I've already said once in another thread what getting mail there is like.

...If these people seem overly religious, it's mostly because religion is more or less the only thing they can turn to for relief or hope.

[Beldaran]

and MILF cause trouble

:pimp: [obligatory]

[bigjoe]

:pimp: [obligatory] amen. :D

MILFs causing trouble is something Id like to see.