An idea crazy enough...

[Pineconn]

...that it just might work.

I'm sure most of us are slightly disappointed that such a powerful program duo, Zelda Classic and ZQuest, aren't very well-known. The best way to promote Zelda Classic to the mass public would be to advertise, right? But how?

Everyone grab a copy of Nintendo Power (if you subscribe) and flip to the Community section in the back. The Community section of Nintendo Power features creations, Miis, tattoos, etc. that fellow Nintendo Power subscribers submit. I'm almost certain we'd be able to get Zelda Classic printed in this section. Somebody (like myself) could e-mail Nintendo Power (which is perhaps drafted here) and provide all kinds of information about Zelda Classic. If we actually do e-mail Nintendo Power, I think it would be best to do so directly after the release of 2.5. We'd also have to emphasize that Zelda Classic is not a ROM/emulator combo. The only possible barrier I see is some sort of "copyright infringement" of Zelda Classic, but ZC is indeed perfectly legal, correct?

Anyway, the writers of Nintendo Power arrange a nice little article about ZC, maybe throw in some screens or even a URL, and BAM!! — instant advertising.

[The_Amaster]

Even more so, we should send them several, if not several dozen well written, thought out letters. Show that we have numbers, not just some backwater program, eh?

I'd send one.

[bobrocks95]

I agree, the more the merrier. I've been a subscriber for around 5 years, so I actually know what you're talking about:tongue:.

[Dan Furst]

I believe this happened in the Oct. 2005 issue, actually.

[Pineconn]

Was it? My first issue was January 2006, so I'd have no idea. Bobrocks95, do you keep your issues (I ask because you say you've been a subscriber for 5 years)? If so, could you check?

[bobrocks95]

I'm on the case, I hope it really has been 5 years....

EDIT: I'm good here, pulled out a random issue and it was May '04. I'll keep looking.

[bobrocks95]

Nope, nothing in the October '05 issue, or at least not in the community section.

[Pineconn]

I'll check the January 2006 issues and beyond to divide work. I'll post the results in a minute or so.

[bobrocks95]

So this would definitely be in the community section? If you don't find anything Pineconn, I'll check some older issues.

[Pineconn]

Where else would it be?

Nothing in January 2006 and up. I'll double check.

[bobrocks95]

Well, Community wasn't even introduced until a little bit after the design change(once the covers started getting all glossy), and the design change's first issue talked about Twilight Princess, so I'm going to say that it hasn't been in Nintendo Power.

[Revfan9]

That was EGM that had Zelda Classic featured, not Nintendo Power. There was one screenshot from one of Exate's quests, 2 sentences, and a website link.

But even still, drawing in a bunch of users that makes Nintendo see Zelda Classic as a way to make money, they take it over, and ZC goes to hell (If it hasn't already...)? No thanks...

Maybe it's just me that feels this, but everything just seems to go to crap once it stops being humble.

[bobrocks95]

Doesn't ZC have some kind of protection from Nintendo 'taking over'? I mean, they couldn't just walk in and say: "Zelda Classic belongs to us now, and we're going to make people download it for $20 every update", could they?

[Revfan9]

Unless there's some legal bullshit that I don't know about concerning ZC and Nintendo, "The Legend of Zelda" and all associated copyrights are held by Nintendo. So far as I understand it, if they really wanted to, they could come in and say "Either give us the program and we're going to charge people to use it, or we'll sue you for millions and get ZC shut down". The only real reason ZC exists at all is because Nintendo really doesn't care mostly due to the userbase being relatively small.

Basically, the moment that Nintendo could make a dime off of it, say goodbye to ZC...

[bobrocks95]

That makes a lot of sense, as ZC is a perfect copy of the original Legend of Zelda.

[Russ]

Hm. This could work, but I forsee one problem. If we do that, and ZC gets big, Nintendo could easily use their copyright on the Zelda franchise to gain control of ZC. Overall, it's somewhat risky to wave ZC right under Nintendo's nose, so I would say don't do it. As soon as Nintendo relizes they can make money off of ZC, the good ole ZC days are over.

[Pineconn]

But still, Zelda Classic is not a ROM since it was built from the ground up. Do you really think Nintendo would take legal action if we e-mail it to Nintendo Power?

If anything, the ESA would get involved (they are who are responsible for taking all Mario, Zelda, and other popular Nintendo ROMs off the Internet). The ESA has actually threatened to sue ROM websites if they didn't remove certain ROMs.

[Russ]

But still, Zelda Classic is not a ROM since it was built from the ground up. Do you really think Nintendo would take legal action if we e-mail it to Nintendo Power?

I think Nintendo would probably say "We want to market this program and get 95% of the money". Nintendo knows ZC exists. But they're not doing anything since it's not that big of a thing. If it got advertised to everyone who reads Nintendo Power, Nintendo might start getting some ideas.

[Aegix Drakan]

I cna DEFINETELY confirm that ZC was featured in a Gaming Mag.

How am I so sure? That's what got me on here. :P

[Pineconn]

Exactly. If ZC was already featured in a huge gaming magazine and Nintendo did nothing about it, I'm confident that featuring ZC in NP won't make a difference. As long we make ourselves as humble as possible, they won't care.

[Russ]

Okay then, submit it or whatever you have to do. But if ZC gets taken over by Nintendo, you are responsible for it.

[MoonCheese]

I agree that ZC needs to be more well-known, but I'm a bit scared of it being advertised in Nintendo Power. I could see Nintendo not wanting to advertise a free and more powerful version of the game they're selling on Virtual Console and maybe still for GBA. And if they try to use their copyright on Zelda to get the rights to ZC, I could see ZC having to rename itself to "Blornjoomia Classic" or something equally lame and hastily change all the graphics to follow the adventures of Spink in Byrule trying to save Princess Blornjoomia from Cannon. I once saw a fan project for another game series have to do stuff like that.

This is only tangentially related to the thread, but I was working in ZQuest at work today and someone was like "That's an interesting thing to do while you're here." or some such. So I told him about ZC. Everyone knows what Zelda is (well, a lot of people know), but few people have ever heard of ZC.

[Aliem]

Nintendo can't really do anything about Zelda Classic, other than say "hey, stop using our graphics." And that is simply a matter of not packing Zelda graphics with ZQuest, yet still making them easily available.

The reason for this is simple... Zelda Classic is a homebrew game engine, not a direct copy of the game. The first quest that comes packaged with ZC is, but ZC itself isn't.

Gotta love copyright law ^_^

[Joe123]

I think if Nintendo wanted to shut down ZC, they wouldn't have too much hassle doing it...

Just they don't.

[Russ]

I think if Nintendo wanted to shut down ZC, they wouldn't have too much hassle doing it...

Just they don't.
They don't now, but if it had a sudden popularity boom, they might.

[Joe123]

Heh, rather sinister =P

When ZC starts becoming profitable is when Nintendo will shut it down.

[Russ]

Heh, rather sinister =P

When ZC starts becoming profitable is when Nintendo will shut it down.
And if it gets advertized in Nintendo Power, chances are it will get profitable and Nintendo will shut it down. That's why I think it's a bad idea.

[Nicholas Steel]

That was EGM that had Zelda Classic featured, not Nintendo Power. There was one screenshot from one of Exate's quests, 2 sentences, and a website link.

But even still, drawing in a bunch of users that makes Nintendo see Zelda Classic as a way to make money, they take it over, and ZC goes to hell (If it hasn't already...)? No thanks...

Maybe it's just me that feels this, but everything just seems to go to crap once it stops being humble.
nintendo could sue for ripping the original graphics, but i think thats all they could do.

[Nicholas Steel]

I think, we just need to stop scaring people away from using the latest alpha/beta for quest building and playing quests with. that way 2.5 will actually come to fruition before the end of 2008.

more people use it = larger debugging group.

[Dan Furst]

That was EGM that had Zelda Classic featured, not Nintendo Power. There was one screenshot from one of Exate's quests, 2 sentences, and a website link.

EGM, eh? My mistake.

You guys should flag the devs over here. I'm sure they would have something to say.

[bobrocks95]

I think, we just need to stop scaring people away from using the latest alpha/beta for quest building and playing quests with. that way 2.5 will actually come to fruition before the end of 2008.

more people use it = larger debugging group.

I use the latest 2.5 beta, and I can say that it is both quite stable and adds a TON of new features. If everyone that uses 2.10 just knew how much more stuff was in it, I'm sure that a lot of people would switch over to it.

[Nicholas Steel]

Yes, Pineconns idea rests upon 2.5 actually existing at some point 'soon' so i think what i said just above is what needs to be done.

you should be telling people about the new features and stuff more. putting emphasis on its bugs and glitches is stupid and counterproductive to getting a big user base for debugging it.

[Joe123]

And if it gets advertized in Nintendo Power, chances are it will get profitable and Nintendo will shut it down. That's why I think it's a bad idea.

Why does that mean it'll become profitable?

[Pineconn]

Yeah, I think Joe123 meant "profitable" as "we get money."

I think Nintendo looks at ZC differently than ROMs. I believe they view ROMs as piracy and a form of their losing money, so they shut them down. However, I think when they see ZC, a project that was homebrewed, they view it much more favorably as a gratifying fan project and tribute to Zelda.

Well, either that, or they never found it since ZC doesn't show up by typing in "Zelda ROM". :D

[Russ]

Well, either that, or they never found it since ZC doesn't show up by typing in "Zelda ROM". :D
No, Nintendo knows about ZC. It's just not bug enough for them to gain money off of yet.

[DarkDragon]

ZC will always be free. The day we start charging for it is the day we get buried in DMCA cease-and-desist notices.

They definitely know about us - several troublemakers in the past have tried to shut down AGN by reporting us. They just figure that ZC benefits them more as free advertising for the franchise than hurts their profit margin.

[Russ]

They just figure that ZC benefits them more as free advertising for the franchise than hurts their profit margin.
I never though of that. If we're spending time on ZC, it just shows everyone how good Nintendo's game is for everyone to want to play it and make their own version.

[Pineconn]

The DMCA can go die. The ESA can go die.

I made this thread a poll. Vote! (It is not a public poll, so no one will be able to see what choice you selected.)

[beefster09]

The Classic/BS/Pure Set graphics, items, enemies, and 1st and 2nd Quests make up the only content that is questionable on legality. The editor and player themselves and all fan quests and custom graphics are completely legal.

[Nicholas Steel]

Your poll lacks the 4th option...

No it is not a good idea.

...why would we say it's a terrible idea?

[Joe123]

It's a great idea.

Popularity is waning.

[billy ronald]

Its happened before how did you think i found it

yes i was looking thought an Nintendo mag (NGC) (what i live in the UK) and seen Zelda classic make you own Zelda games i said well this is for me.

SO yes this would work (not a think a would)

[MoonCheese]

The Classic/BS/Pure Set graphics, items, enemies, and 1st and 2nd Quests make up the only content that is questionable on legality. The editor and player themselves and all fan quests and custom graphics are completely legal.

What about fan quests that use Nintendo's graphics? I don't know of too many quests that are 100% custom graphics. Even non-Zelda quests often use Nintendo's graphics from Mario, Metroid, etc.

[Nicholas Steel]

beefster, don't forget the legality issue's behind fully simulating a retail game in every way including level design.

[beefster09]

I said "questionable" meaning it could be legal, but there's a decent chance it isn't. The graphics are probably fine.

I mentioned the level design when I said 1st and 2nd quests.

The actual programming code is legal, since it is not exactly the same; it's reverse-engineered, which is legal. Plus, it's a lot less efficient; it uses more RAM than the NES or even the SNES or N64 had.

[ennonfenom]

Yeah, I think Joe123 meant "profitable" as "we get money."

I think Nintendo looks at ZC differently than ROMs. I believe they view ROMs as piracy and a form of their losing money, so they shut them down. However, I think when they see ZC, a project that was homebrewed, they view it much more favorably as a gratifying fan project and tribute to Zelda.

Well, either that, or they never found it since ZC doesn't show up by typing in "Zelda ROM". :D

Actually zc did come up when I typed "zelda rom" back in the days of 1.92 . Thats how I found out about zc, long ago. But yeah I don't think Nintendo would do any thing about it because its free, and none of the .qst's are being sold! So Why would the trip?

[bobrocks95]

Plus, Nintendo doesn't strike me as the kind of company that would do that anyway. I don't think the content is questionable enough for something too bad to happen.

[Joe123]

You could write a formal letter to Nintendo asking whether we'd be allowed to advertise in a magazine.

[MoonCheese]

Actually zc did come up when I typed "zelda rom" back in the days of 1.92 . Thats how I found out about zc, long ago. But yeah I don't think Nintendo would do any thing about it because its free, and none of the .qst's are being sold! So Why would the trip?

That's similar to how I found out about ZC. I had played Outlands and wanted to hack Zelda 1, but there were very few utilities like level editors...apparently Outlands was almost entirely done by directly changing bytes in the ROM with a hex editor! This was 2003, and I think there are more utilities now, but I always used to wonder why so little work went into modding one of the most popular NES games ever. (I originally came from the Mario modding community, which was saturated with hacks even then and there were many very powerful utilities.) Then I Googled every possible thing I could think of..."zelda rom data" and "zelda level editor" and "legend of zelda hacking" and such. At some point, I saw mention of Zelda Classic, which I had vaguely heard of but didn't know what it was. When I saw that Zelda Classic had a level editor, I immediately tried to learn how it worked and make my planned hack into a ZC quest. I never came close to finishing it.

[DarkDragon]

Unless I hear differently from DN or War Lord, I'm not going to give official endorsement to any plan which might draw the attention of the Evil Eye that is Nintendo's anti-piracy division.

On the other hand, I'm powerless to stop any campaign undertaken by our fans ;)

[Pineconn]

You could write a formal letter to Nintendo asking whether we'd be allowed to advertise in a magazine.

"Dear Nintendo,

We'd like to advertise a possibly illegal program in Nintendo Power in order to gain more popularity. This program happens to feature a near-exact copy of one of your best-selling video games of all time. Can we? For more details, you can go to www.zeldaclassic.com.

Regards,

Armageddon Games Community"

Yes, I'm not too sure about that. ;)

[Nicholas Steel]

it's reverse-engineered, which is legal.

depends on the EULA, im not too sure if such clauses where popular back then but these days reverse engineering retail products is a big no-no.

[Joe123]

¬_¬

"Dear Nintendo,
I am a member of a fan-game community supporting your popular Legend of Zelda series of computer games.
We feel that the community is a great way of advertising your merchandise, and are all keen to buy more of your games.
Lately, however, we've waned in popularity, and as a way of trying to attract new members, we may advertise in Nintedo Power.

Regards
AGN"

[bobrocks95]

That sounds good, without exactly telling them 'Lookie' Lookie' Nintendo, we've got an exact copy of your NES game, you wanna' know more about it?'

[Russ]

"Dear Nintendo,

We'd like to advertise a possibly illegal program in Nintendo Power in order to gain more popularity. This program happens to feature a near-exact copy of one of your best-selling video games of all time. Can we? For more details, you can go to www.zeldaclassic.com (http://www.zeldaclassic.com).

Regards,

Armageddon Games Community"

Yes, I'm not too sure about that. ;)
You know, I would just like to see how there react to that letter.
¬_¬

"Dear Nintendo,
I am a member of a fan-game community supporting your popular Legend of Zelda series of computer games.
We feel that the community is a great way of advertising your merchandise, and are all keen to buy more of your games.
Lately, however, we've waned in popularity, and as a way of trying to attract new members, we may advertise in Nintedo Power.

Regards
AGN"
That sounds much better, as it shows Nintendo that we are free advertizing for them.

[Pteryx]

I personally don't think this is a good idea because the current state of copyright law makes us look like a bunch of thieves. Even if we're not taking money that other people would actually be giving to Nintendo, we're "inducing piracy" by offering their game in a free form at all, never mind that the program's primary function now is the creation of fan works (which, while on murky legal ground in and of itself, I feel will eventually end up legal if there's any hope at all left for this country).

I agree that from any sane (as opposed to legal) perspective, ZC should be regarded as free advertising; on top of that, it should be considered a good portfolio-building tool for an aspiring game designer. But the fact is, corporate interests have corrupted US law such that they're no longer in line with what some might call the common law, and now those money-grubbing ideas are even being exported. -- Pteryx

[Shoelace]

Personally I don't think it is a good idea. Why risk ZC? I love this program to death. And I don't want it going away just to get on a magazine. Nintendo and Nintendo Power know about us, that is no secret. I know that they think ZC is free adverting, but Nintendo is a business. And you know that they have the money to shut us down. It is not like we can get lawyers to make a case. Plus, I don't think ZC is booming right now. If you really wanted to do this, why not do it at a time, say when 2.5 is released, so that we actually can have a good portfolio to show. ZC is stale right now as everyone really can't release their quests or are updating there quests to the betas. I just think it is a bad time... even if you do.

[bobrocks95]

Pineconn's whole plan revolved around releasing it once 2.5 came out.

[Sir_Johnamus]

Hmm...I remember a topic was about this a while back. I said the same thing there I will here. The number of "OMG hau du u lod qwst?" messages. Funny...haha no.

But I also remember that not too long ago, the nes copyright ran out from Nintendo, and thus it became legal to do whatever to the system. Correct me if I'm wrong(I probably am) but by extention, does that not mean that the games went with it? Just thinking.

Another topic comes from the other ZC site. Many of you know which one. The thing was that nintendo would overdevelop the progam where it would be easy to make the Lost Isle, MMDWRDC, Hero of Dreams, and Neofirst over the course of about 2 days. I think that is a reason.

Final point:
I have the old Johnamus mentality still, that if they care enough, they will just search for it. That's how I found it anyways. The search was for..."kick ass zelda editor"I think.

That is my points for the discussion at hand.
-Sir Johnamus Otassimeaux

[MoonCheese]

But I also remember that not too long ago, the nes copyright ran out from Nintendo, and thus it became legal to do whatever to the system.

In the case of Japan (where Zelda and the NES (Famicom) were developed), all copyrights last at least 50 years. It's similar in most countries. You may be thinking of patents, which have shorter lifespans.

[Pineconn]

Yep, patents have a span of something like 7 or 9 years. I forget.

Well, AGN seems to be divided on this issue. I guess the majority says Yea, but it's too close to call.

[Russ]

I think we should have the consent of all ZC developers before we attempt something like this.

[MoonCheese]

Perhaps we should consider advertising somewhere other than Nintendo Power? I've noticed that almost no Zelda sites mention ZC at all (unless the site is dedicated to ZC)...

[Russ]

Perhaps we should consider advertising somewhere other than Nintendo Power? I've noticed that almost no Zelda sites mention ZC at all (unless the site is dedicated to ZC)...
Zelda Dungeon is a good fan site. We could see if we could have ZC put up in their fan section.

[Pineconn]

:eyebrow:

Zelda Dungeon and Zelda Classic already are affiliates. Why would we need to put something in the fan section?

[Russ]

:eyebrow:

Zelda Dungeon and Zelda Classic already are affiliates. Why would we need to put something in the fan section?
They are? Wait, I think I remember something like that. Well, then we alreadr have a good affiliate. Now we just need to become affiliates with every single Zelda fan site on the internet! This could take a while.

[bobrocks95]

Ya, I actually found out about ZC from Zelda Dungeon.

[The_Amaster]

*Entering the conversation*
We could just affiliate with every Zelda related site out there. I can't see why they'd say no, and hey, publicity is publicity.

It's a bit of work, but just firing off emails should be enough.

(Wow, my spellcheck approves "emails"? Go figure.)

[Pineconn]

E-mail, email, whatever. I prefer e-mail.

Well, I suppose more affiliation would be excellent, but I'm not about to do so without administrator approval. I imagine I could get ZC affiliated with ZeldaPower relatively easily (since I used to be an active member there, now I just poke in and out; I also happen to be well-acquainted with the ZP administrator).

But yeah, affiliation would be much safer than an announcement in Nintendo's official magazine, but likely not as effective.

[The_Amaster]

Oh yeah, nowhere near as good publicity. But also about 1000 times less the danger.

I guess what I'm saying is "Why not?"

[Russ]

Oh yeah, nowhere near as good publicity. But also about 1000 times less the danger.

I guess what I'm saying is "Why not?"
I agree with you. Maybe somebody could create an article about ZC on the Zelda wiki. There are a bunch of fan sites we could afiliate with. It might not be as effective, but we don't have to risk Nintendo shutting ZC down.

[jman2050]

A few things to clarify:

ZC was not reverse engineered to my knowledge. Reverse engineering would be looking at the game's code and deriving your engine from that code. What occurred here was a rough, if faithful, approximation of how ZC worked based on observation of the game itself. Besides that, the legality of reverse-engineering software is something that has yet to be made concrete.

Thus, the entire engine is custom and built from scratch. The only illegal part of the software are any use of trademark (thus the name itself) and the use of ripped NES/SNES graphics and of the original songs, even in MIDI form. As far as custom quests go, I believe that user-created content of that nature falls under fair use. On the other hand, Marvel *did* try to sue the makers of City of Heroes since their character creation system allowed users to violate copyright, and it was settled in court. However, the main issue in this case was that Marvel was creating their own Superhero based MMO. So unless Nintendo is planning on a 2D Zelda game with user-created content, I don't think they care.

In the hypothetical case that we get a C&D, it would be as simple as gutting out any trademark and copyright infringing graphics and sounds and renaming the program. A similar thing happened when Graal when it used to be Zelda Online. Then again, I believe they charged people in that game, whereas, as DD said, as long as we control ZC it's going to stay free.

As far as trying to get ZC advertised in NP, I don't have a personal problem with it, but I still recommend everyone to err on the side of caution. Of course, as DD also said, we can't control what our loyal fanbase does ;)

[erm2003]

There is one big difference here though. No one is profiting from ZC. As long as that stays true, I don't see why Nintendo would have a problem with it overall. They aren't losing any money. If anything ZC is maintaining popularity in the Zelda series and that is benefiting them more.

That being said, I am still not sure how good of an idea it is to advertise in NP. They know we exist. ZC has been featured on a tech TV show once. I can't remember the name but I know a video has been floating around somewhere on the internet. Also the many videos on youtube that show the program would be a giveaway as well. Even though I don't think Nintendo would come after ZC, I don't want them to find a reason to either.

[The_Amaster]

There is one big difference here though. No one is profiting from ZC. As long as that stays true, I don't see why Nintendo would have a problem with it overall. They aren't losing any money.
True, but they also aren't gaining any money either. If ZC infringes their copyright, and they sue for ownership, then they can sell it, thus making money.

[Russ]

True, but they also aren't gaining any money either. If ZC infringes their copyright, and they sue for ownership, then they can sell it, thus making money.
On second thought, it might not be such a bad idea. They would probably put it on the DS and Wii. ZC would be forever free of allegro limitations! Of course, it would probably cost a lot too.

[Joe123]

No-one would buy it, and we'd just be ZCless.

[Russ]

No-one would buy it, and we'd just be ZCless.
I bet some people would buy it. I know I would. Think of it, you are on your Wii at the Wii shop channel. The new hotest product is called Zelda Classic, It says, "Relive the original Zelda game, as well as make your very own ones. Use professional new features to make quest like these (followed by links to Hero of Dreams, Lost Isle, Link to the Heavens, Key to the Heavens, etc.) Only 500 Wii points! Buy now!" That would be a pretty big lure to people.

[Joe123]

Oh, you mean if Nintendo were to market it as one of their products?

I'd buy it if that happened, but I don't think it would.

[MoonCheese]

Also, some people wouldn't want to buy a Wii just to play a game they'd otherwise be able to play on their computers. I pretty much lost interest in consoles when every game turned 3D, now the only newer games I play are for PC or handhelds. The Wii interests me somewhat, but only for the Virtual Console feature, and I'd rather not spend the money just for that.

[Russ]

You should buy a Wii. They are awesome! Even the Wii Sports game that comes with it is fun. But it has such great games! But that's off topic.

[Pteryx]

Making an effort to try to make every Zelda site on the Net aware of ZC sounds like a far better idea as far as pubicity goes. Then at least we wouldn't be waving ZC over the heart of the forge. -- Pteryx

[Pineconn]

Does anyone find it odd that Zelda Classic links to TSA's former website "ZHQ" (now "The Hylia"), but this site doesn't have a link to Zelda Classic?

[Russ]

Does anyone find it odd that Zelda Classic links to TSA's former website "ZHQ" (now "The Hylia"), but this site doesn't have a link to Zelda Classic?
Hm, that's strange. We should see if they will link to ZC's website.

[Pineconn]

It's not like TSA (who really doesn't manage that site anymore) would say, "No, screw you guys, I've never heard of you before in my life."

So I see that we're torn between "It's a good idea" and "I have no idea." Yay, decisiveness!

[MoonCheese]

I think getting affiliations with other sites is a better option than advertising in Nintendo Power. There are so many Zelda fans who probably go to other Zelda sites who have never even heard of ZC. No Zelda fan I've met in real life has claimed to know what ZC is, either. ZC seems to hide itself, it took me a long time to find it myself.