The Koopalings

[Mitsukara]

Okay, so I'm never at a loss for something to rant about, and I figured this one might actually make an interesting topic of some sort since I haven't seen a lot of thought applied to the matter by anyone in years (though I'm sure there are plenty of people that do somewhere).

Let's travel back in time to 1989. Super Mario Bros. 3. Nintendo decides to do something more imaginative for bosses rather than Bowser/King Koopa at the end of the world, while also lending more weight to Bowser himself as he only appears for one final battle, and with a completely different strategy than the previous two games' relatively uniform attack pattern (and instant-win axe at the end of the bridge; by two games I'm referring to SMB2j).

So they invented kids (http://www.mariowiki.com/Koopalings) for Bowser; seven of 'em. They had funny hair (mohawks, other spiky hair, no hair, Beethoven hair), weird accessories (nerd glasses, a bow, a clown-esque star ball to ride on, a star-shaped "birthmark" over one eye, groovy shades)... stuff that was sorta reaching to even include on the NES for one-time uses, although they did recycle parts of them (mainly the shell/body area; they only drew three of those I think) in each other's sprites. They were all named after famous musicians (plus two talk show hosts?) Ludwig Von Koopa, Roy Koopa, Wendy O. Koopa, Iggy Koopa, Lemmy Koopa, Morton Koopa Jr. (???), and Larry Koopa.

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/6/6c/Koopalings8.jpg

The Koopalings went on to appear in Super Mario World, the super scope game Yoshi's Safari, and a lot of other mediums (most memorably, the SMB3 and SMW cartoons, although somewhat embarassingly so there I'd say XD), even the Phillips CD-i Hotel Mario.

And then they didn't appear in any Mario games at all for upwinds of 10 years.

Now, I can certainly see why several things- even Luigi- didn't appear in Super Mario 64, since it was experimenting in a totally new field. But where did they go in all these other games? They weren't even in Mario RPG for the SNES.

They finally reappeared, once, without any dialogue or explanation, inside Bowser's castle at one point during Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga as bosses. You just fight them and move on.

They were also apparently going to appear in Super Princess Peach, but removed...?

But what has Nintendo instead given us? Starting in Super Mario Sunshine, and many games since- the various Mario sportspartywhatever games, New Super Mario Bros, and even Super Mario Galaxy, we've had this "Bowser Jr." character. He looks almost exactly like Baby Bowser from Yoshi's Island.

Now, excuse me, but WTF? It's like they had a meeting at Nintendo one day:

"Hmm, we need a new villain that's not Bowser in this Super Mario Dolphin game."
"I know, let's have a Shadow Mario! Like Shadow Link!"
"Hmm... interesting, but weird. Can you come up with a story that makes sense for why such a thing would exist, that's appropriate for little kids?"
"..."
"Oh, I've got it! Bowser has... A SON! *DUN DUN DUN*"

Without anybody there to go "Uhhhhh, jackass, we already did that 10 years ago. Seven of them. One was even a girl. It was called 'Super Mario Bros. 3'?"

I mean, seriously. What the heck?? Did they even... sort of think about past games at all? Aren't some of these people supposedly, y'know, the same people that worked on those games? And then all they can be bothered with, when someone obviously figures it out, is hedging on a cameo, with no explanation or jack crap even though it's an RPG full of dialogue??? The best one can surmise from their Mario and Luigi appearance is that at some point, Bowser said "Screw it, you're all grounded for failing! Go to your rooms forever! And remember, it doesn't talk or else it gets the hose again! I'm gonna go make a clone of myself, at least then he won't look funny! I think I'll call him... mini-me..."

I mean seriously, does anyone else find this totally whack? And disappointing? I mean, they made up these original, wacky characters, more ornate than they needed to be in a NES game already brimming with great level design and new features and whatnot, and then just sort of forgot about them or something.

Can it be that inconvenient to work them in now and then in some legitimate fashion? If the party/tennis/kart/whatever games are scrambling so bad to expand on their characters, and they need more villains to counteract all the heroes, I'd think 7 more would be a pretty useful sway there, wouldn't it? You could find (and still can, though they're mostly old ones that are just still around) old internet sites chock-a-block that had fans of these characters, with fanfiction and whatnot. Surely it crossed someone's mind that there's cash to be made with the idea? And surely Nintendo's main developers have actually played through at least one world of Super Mario Bros. 3?

Of course, another good question that's never been dealt with officially at all is, where the heck does Bowser get these kids? Is he like a Shrieker from Tremors 2/3/the series, where when he eats enough he coughs up a baby? Is he a widower? Did he steal them from somewhere else (implausible since they all have features exclusively resembling his, like the spiky shell and claws and fangs)?

And what's up with the spiky shell items in Mario Kart anyway? Maybe that's what happened to the Koopalings?

I dunno, I just found this was something I wanted to rant about, and figured I'd give it a shot here. A little goldmine of Mario history sitting around collecting dust, in my opinion.

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/7/71/Koopaling_3.jpg
(The unused beta sprites from Super Princess Peach, it seems)

Also: While I understand there's probably a liscense squabble preventing the use of Super Mario RPG's many ingenious character designs elsewhere, why has Nintendo never even sort of tried to reuse Wart (http://www.mariowiki.com/Wart) and Tatanga (http://www.mariowiki.com/Tatanga) (although he did have two game appearances, at least)?

[Nicholas Steel]

a star-shaped "birthmark" over one eye,
http://www.mariowiki.com/images/6/6c/Koopalings8.jpg
Morton is wearing a helmet/head mask thing with stars on it, there are 2 stars visible in the picture.

[Mitsukara]

I'm pretty sure that's just a mark on his face. He's seen with that in every artwork picture I've seen.
http://www.mariomonsters.com/m/morton/art_morton01.jpg

The colors deviate in SMW a lot, on every Koopaling but Iggy, Larry, and Wendy. There, Ludwig had white hair and a yellow shell, Roy was blue, Lemmy was yellow, and Morton Jr. was green. The only time Iggy and Lemmy's happenin' rainbow mohawks seem to have made it into a game was Yoshi's Safari (http://tsgk.captainn.net/index.php?p=showgame&t=sy&sy=8&ga=369), though- IMO their best appearance (though you don't actually see Iggy until you defeat him).

Although, one could argue Ludwig's SMW colors were better since that would make for a lot more variety... but eh, they just screwed up. I'd say it was a matter of limited pallettes, but that really doesn't make sense since SMB3 was fairly consistent about them.

[4matsy]

I mean, seriously. What the heck?? Did they even... sort of think about past games at all?
I think your logic falls apart riiiiight about here. Everyone knows that Mario and continuity don't mix. :p


I mean seriously, does anyone else find this totally whack? And disappointing?
YES. :sweat:

Heh...remember when they asked if the Koopalings were going to be in New SMB, and the guy told them yes thinking that they were talking about Bowser Jr.?

Makes you wonder if some of the people at Nintendo really have forgotten about or have no knowledge of the Koopalings' existence... :odd:


Of course, another good question that's never been dealt with officially at all is, where the heck does Bowser get these kids? Is he like a Shrieker from Tremors 2/3/the series, where when he eats enough he coughs up a baby?
ROFL. :lol:

[MasterSwordUltima]

Wart was a figment of Mario's dream. Tatanga was an alien. Actually, Tatanga is in those crazy old gameboy comics, where all the badguys come out of the gameboy that the guy steals. I remember reading those. :O

Also, this topic needs more Geno...[hides]

[Russ]

Okay, this is somewhat wierd. I read this topic after playing Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga. And I was battling the Koopalings.

Anyways, I think Nintendo should definitly bring them back into play. They were awesome, and they just got replaced by some miniture version of Bowser.

And about them being his kids, I think Nintendo never really planned out a mother. They just said, "Hey, why don't we give Bowser some kids?".

And who is Tatanga?

[MasterSwordUltima]

Tatanga is the crazy purple alien guy who kidnaps Daisy in Super Mario Land for the Gameboy.

Bowser having a woman, I think, is too riske...risque...too MATURE of a thing. But having kids instead of like, an organization of other koopa or whatever seemed to keep Nintendo's E rating or something. I dunno, I'm probably completely wrong.

Except for that Koopalings had better be Trophies in Brawl.

[Mak-X]

I think it has to do with the current staff working on the Mario games. The Koopa kids where based off of the staff of Super Mario Bros. 3, who also worked on Super Mario World.

http://www.miyamotoshrine.com/theman/interviews/0561.shtml

Where do you get the ideas for the other Mario game characters?

Miyamoto:
We have a very large design staff working on the Mario games, and each member contributes ideas. The Koopa Kids, for example in Super Mario Bros. 3, were modeled after the design team of that game. This is another way we give recognition to the many people who help make the games successful.

Bowser Jr. (or Koopa Jr. in Japan) looks similar to Baby Bowser from Yoshi's Island, I thought that's who it was when I saw him in Sunshine. It's probably easier to use one kid than to manage fitting in seven too.

Koopa Kids > Bowser Jr.

[Rijuhn]

I totally agree with you Jennifer. I really thought they would return for other Super Mario games because I honestly loved them so much. They really rounded-out the cast of characters IMO. The Bowser Jr. character that is now appearing is the most annoying and cheapest piece of crap I've seen for a Mario game.

[Grasshopper]

What about Pokey and Shy Guy. They were first introduced in our version of Super Mario Bros. 2, but made it into several other Mario games even though SMB2 was suppose to be Mario's dream. Shy Guys appear in the RPGs and sports games, while Pokey appears in the platformers.

[MasterSwordUltima]

Because Shy Guys are God's gift to man. And Pokeys are just neat.

[bigjoe]

I know that their appearance was pretty lackluster in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, but I was still quite excited to see them.:D


What about Pokey and Shy Guy. They were first introduced in our version of Super Mario Bros. 2, but made it into several other Mario games even though SMB2 was suppose to be Mario's dream. Shy Guys appear in the RPGs and sports games, while Pokey appears in the platformers.

It is relevant to note that Super Mario Bros. 2 is little more than a graphical hack of a Japanese game: Doki Doki Panic. Now, there are some differences, but the fact remains.

[Russ]

I know that their appearance was pretty lackluster in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, but I was still quite excited to see them.:D

I wouldn't call it lackluster. I just got done beating all of them, and I loved them. Especially the ones with the time bombs.

[Grasshopper]

It is relevant to note that Super Mario Bros. 2 is little more than a graphical hack of a Japanese game: Doki Doki Panic. Now, there are some differences, but the fact remains.Of course, but I was referring to Super Mario Bros 2 (US) being a dream. I think I was suppose to be quoting something, but I have no idea who's comment I was referring to now. Heh

My comment was, Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic isn't even related to SMB in Japan, but even over here, it wasn't even a real place either, just a figment of Mario's imagination. (or a cheap cop-out by Nintendo to explain the differences) My statement was referring to how Shy-Guys and Pokeys are now a staple in the Mario universe but were first introduced in another game. I think its strange to see two enemies from a specific game transcribe themselves over to a completely different gaming universe.

[Mak-X]

Doki Doki Panic was made by Miyamoto and the Super Mario team, with Koji Kondo doing the music, so it wasn't that far from the Mario series.

Tadashi Sugiyama, a director of Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link, also worked on Super Mario Bros. 2 (Super Mario USA as it was called when rereleased in Japan), and also worked on Mario Kart: Double Dash! so that may be another reason why you see characters like Birdo that he worked on resurface.

[MasterSwordUltima]

Didn't Bob-ombs originate in SMB2 also? They're the best fucking mario character period.

[erm2003]

How about Mouser? Nothing beats tossing bombs back at a overgrown mouse with shades.

[Russ]

How about Mouser? Nothing beats tossing bombs back at a overgrown mouse with shades.
Too bad he didn't appear in any other game. At least, I don't think he did.

[Mitsukara]

I always associate Mouser with the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, as King Koopa's lackey.

Weren't most of the original SMB2 characters straight-up the same Doki Doki Panic characters? I thought they just changed stuff like the player characters, powerups (mushroom and star and koopa shell), mushroom blocks, etc. All the enemies are Doki Doki Panic characters though.

Admittedly, they fit quite well with Mario characters, so much so that they're assimilated into being solely Mario characters (one could try to claim that SMB2/USA killed what could've been a Doki Doki Panic series, in a Borgish way). Shy Guys, Snifits, Ninjis, theoretically bob-ombs (I think that may be more coincidence. They looked a bit different in SMB2US, and SMB2 wasn't being developed as such until Mario 3 already was- which, incidentally, is why under scrutiny, the Mario and Princess sprites from SMB2US are based on SMB3 sprites, or shared notes or something. Or maybe they were making SMB3 and said "y'know, those exploding walking bombs from Doki Doki panic were a good idea. Let's make up a Mario version!" *2 days later* "Hey, let's remodel Doki Doki Panic and call it SMB2 in America! They're too wussy for the real SMB2, and we know it's 90% unoriginal anyway so we don't like it either. Hey! Let's release their SMB2 here too when it's done!")

It's quite a nicely sealed little merger. The only thing that seems sacred to SMB2US, to be found nowhere else in all Mariodom, is Wart and the other bosses. And those little hopping bird things and Phantos. And possibly Hoopstars. And the throwing vegetables (except in SMA4 if you have an e-reader and cards... but who actually does? As neat as extra levels and features are and as badly as I want them and all, the e-reader was a horrible idea and nigh impossible to find in the US if you didn't buy it when it was brand new).

Wart, technically, has appeared in another game, though he was named Mamu in it, and it was a silly cameo. Good ol' Link's Awakening, and it's several weirdly placed Mario cameos. Cheepcheeps, Bloopers, Pirahna Plants... funky looking Goombas...

Mouser, Fryguy, Clawgrip, and Triclyde, though, have never been used in anything. Except the Super Mario Bros Super Show. But no Clawgrip there either (I think). Though, he looks an awful lot like a Kingler...

I think SMB2 would've flown all the better, though, if they had made a few more extra efforts to associate it with SMB1. The vases, for instance, could easily have been redrawn into pipes, and frankly, while I like Wart, turn his bubbles into fireballs and stick in some modified proto-SMB3 WIP Bowser sprites- heck, even with the green and white pallate used for Wart it could've worked. But eh. Mostly I'm just disappointed about the pipes. It would've made the vase shape of the vase areas confusing though I guess, but then again, they aren't overly recognizeable as such and could've passed for underground areas.

A few other trinket bits could've helped if they'd really done some real major modifying, too, and it would make it more appealing as a separate game. Like one single token enemy that dies when jumped on (like, a Goomba)... that would've rendered years of whiny "but you can't jump on teh emenys!!!111" talk nonexistant, and made it look consistant with SMB1 (most enemies didn't die when you jumped on them; like Koopas and Spineys and Buzzy Beetles. Speaking of which, those porcupines in SMB2US could've totally been Spineys). Or something more superfluous, like randomly inserted coins and a coin meter giving you 1-ups every time you got 100 coins. But that kinda stuff would've taken quite a bit more work and time and generally not been cost efficient, and SMB2US did okay without it... I just think it would've punched holes in the popular argument of it being "too different" or "not as good" or whatever. Made it feel more Mario. I someday hope to see an epic hack like that.

As it is, it's a nice fun game, with lots of interesting introductions for the Mario series. Definitely something different, but like... a distant cousin.

[erm2003]

Maybe they just thought they had a great game in Doki Doki Panic but it wouldn't get much attention here in the US so they changed the game into a Mario game to get it more exposure. It obviously worked out that way. But you are right though, none of the major boss characters have ever returned in a Mario game, not that I can think of anyway.

[Grasshopper]

Didn't Bob-ombs originate in SMB2 also? They're the best fucking mario character period.

They wear Reebok shoes too. I found that hilarious when I was younger.

[Mak-X]

We got Doki Doki Panic as Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA) because Super Mario Bros. 2 JPN (The Lost Levels) was thought to be too hard, and looked too dated by the time it would have come out here. Super Mario Bros 2 JPN (The Lost Levels) came out in 1986 in Japan, and Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA) came out in the U.S. in 1988, 3 years after Super Mario Bros.. Doki Doki Panic was also a liscensed game based on a TV show, so Nintendo would have had to change the game anyways. And like I said, it was made by Miyamoto and EAD, and most likely before Super Mario Bros. 3.

Personally, Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA) didn't bother me and just seemed like the natural next step, while Super Mario Bros. 3 returned to the original style. I didn't know about the real Super Mario Bros. 2 until I read the Mario Mania Player's Guide by Nintendo Power.


Wart, technically, has appeared in another game, though he was named Mamu in it, and it was a silly cameo.

BTW, Wart's Japanese name is actually Mamu, so if they had localized it further, he would have been called Wart, but "Wart's Mambo" doesn't sound as good. :)

[Grasshopper]

Super Mario Bros 2 is what made Toad cool for me. Pair that up with the Super Mario Super Show, and Toad, with his little raspy voice, was awesome. Then they go and ruin that for me when they give Toad(s) a voice. Now, most Toads sound like children. Wheres my Toad thats ready to fight Bowser along side Mario and Luigi!

[Russ]

In Super Mario Galaxy, they help out a lot. Except for the captain. In one level, you can see the site of a big battle, and four of the five toads are frozen in ice. You free them, and one says "Where's the captain? Fled at the first sight of trouble, as always." And they do sound somewhat like kids.

[rock_nog]

*grumble grumble* God... Bowser Jr. is the Scrappy Doo of the Mario universe. At any rate, I worry about the ambiguous morals that seem to be taught in the Mario games. I think this whole "mother" issue is really important. Was there a wife? Did Bowser get a divorce - did the wife win custody of the Koopalings? Did Bowser have an affair? Is that where Bowser Jr. came from? I suppose it's hypothetically possible that the mom died, and that Mario killed the Koopalings in Super Mario World, but I just don't know. As it stands, I know I certainly don't want my kids playing games where it's implied that going and abandoning your wife and kids for some green-scaled floozy is okay.

[MasterSwordUltima]

Wait, are you implying that e-Readers are not cool? I still have mine, and a good chunk of Animal Crossing and Mario cards. I believe some pokemon ones too.

[Pineconn]

http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/mariopedia/trophy/bowser.jpg

The Koopa Kids are mentioned in there... Clearly they were alive seven years ago.

[AlexMax]

Wait, are you implying that e-Readers are not cool? I still have mine, and a good chunk of Animal Crossing and Mario cards. I believe some pokemon ones too.

another worthless peripheral from nintendo, what a surprise

[Anthus]

Bowser Jr. is pretty annoying. Especially in Galaxy. The Koopalings would have fit in quite nicely in Galaxy...

[Grasshopper]

*grumble grumble* God... Bowser Jr. is the Scrappy Doo of the Mario universe. At any rate, I worry about the ambiguous morals that seem to be taught in the Mario games. I think this whole "mother" issue is really important. Was there a wife? Did Bowser get a divorce - did the wife win custody of the Koopalings? Did Bowser have an affair? Is that where Bowser Jr. came from? I suppose it's hypothetically possible that the mom died, and that Mario killed the Koopalings in Super Mario World, but I just don't know. As it stands, I know I certainly don't want my kids playing games where it's implied that going and abandoning your wife and kids for some green-scaled floozy is okay.

My nephew actually brought that up to me. He's only 7 years old, so he doesn't know about the Koopa Kids, but he does know about Koopa Jr. He asked me how come he doesn't have a mom. And when I told him Bowser originally had 7 kids, he asked me how come. My answer to all of that was that its a cartoon. Cartoons don't have to make sense.