Wii Virtual Console

[Brasel]

I haven't gotten any games on Wii's Virtual Console, nor do I plan to at all. Whats the benefit to buying and playing games on it rather than just downloading ROMS besides the legality? I'm really interested why people go ahead and spend money on games that could easily be downloaded for free unless they really don't like the fact that ROMs are illegal.

[erm2003]

Well, some ROMs also have inconsistencies and may have errors in them too. I know I have encountered several corrupted ones back when I used to hunt them down on a regular basis. At least with VC I don't have to worry about that problem. VC also makes multiplayer options a lot easier to work with as well. Just grab another controller or remote and you are set to go. It's also nice not to take up space on my computer for ROMs, especially larger ones like N64 games or maybe even NeoGeo if I decide to get any of those. You really never run out of space because once you buy the game you can download it for free any time after that, even if you delete it from your system memory. I also like the fact that if you have to delete and redownload a game, your save state is a separate file and you don't lose it in the process.

[Warlock]

There is also the advantage of not having to sift through 100 porn popup ads and cleaning off spyware to find the game you are looking for :P

Anyways, there is also the advantage of not having to play on a keyboard.. that one is rather nice. Not to mention Nintendo has been branching out lately, offering some Japan-only titles with a bit of translation work, as well as today offering NeoGeo games (I honestly haven't looked, but I haven't heard of too much NeoGeo emulation going on).

In any case, there are numerous reasons, but if you are set on downloading ROMs you're not likely to be convinced anyways.

[Imprisoned]

Anyways, there is also the advantage of not having to play on a keyboard.. that one is rather nice.
That's the reason why I downloaded Super Mario 64. It's very hard to smoothen out the controlling with a keyboard, because it only has the arrow buttons. The control sticks are "much more better", and it's very much more comfortable to play on a couch with a controller fitting to your hand better.
Also, the second best part I like, is that the games don't lag on the Wii, because some (mostly 3d) games lag on the PC.

[ShadowTiger]

I'm actually loving SM64 on the Keyboard. I'm not having very many problems with it, if any, and it also has save states, which is a tremendous boon. Not so much that I prefer the challenge of being chastised by the game for my mistakes and as such have to repeat more than a fair share of level for it, but just to save time. Saving time is really what it's all about in the end for me. I've got too many games to play and get over with to move on to other games to finish to have to worry about repeating one area just because I don't necessarily have to keep doing it.

... that made no sense.

Summation: Save States are useful. Challenge is optional. Keyboard layout isn't that bad, and I've used both a controller and keyboard. To each their own.

[rock_nog]

Controls are better (I hate playing with keyboard), and the emulation's better. Always have silky smooth framerate on VC, and even if it's close on my PC, it's never perfect.

[MottZilla]

There is no advantage except for noobs. Publically available emulators are far more advanced than anything on VC, and everything is out there for you now. If you don't want to use a keyboard then buy a damned controller. You do realize they make controllers for PC right? I use a PSX controller on mine and love it.

ROMs don't have "errors". You just downloaded a bad ROM dump, or have an inaccurate emulator, or you are fooling yourself. ROMs also don't take up any significant space these days either. For a few bucks you can store them all on DVD-Rs.

Warlock, NeoGeo is emulated the hell out of. It was a very popular system for everyone. Legit collectors with too much money, pirates, arcade operators, emulator users, etc. Part of the reason the system died.

Just face it, if you prefer VC over the open ROMs on PC you just aren't very good at it and take the easy way out on VC. If you really want the best experience, it's not through VC. You either buy the real hardware or use a PC with highly accurate emulators and supporting hardware.

So that's it, people are either legally paranoid or not l337 enough.

[Warlock]

*sigh* I didn't even have to read the post to know what it was going to say -_-

[MasterSwordUltima]

Thats because Mott likes his emulators [which is a good thing].

I bought a couple of VC games, mainly just to play it on a TV. And before you say anything along the lines of "just buy a damned PC <-> TV cable", no. I'd rather sit on my ass and just have the games download instead of going out to radioshack or whatever, or god forbid eBay right now, and buy some cable [along with a new video card that supports it].

Also, I like how now my Wii menu is so much more interesting.

[MottZilla]

I'm not saying you should do anything, other than recognize you have a choice. I think the VC encourages bad habits of trying to cash in on old games with NO effort to improve it. I wouldn't mind if it added something new but it doesn't.

Anything the VC can do, the PC can do better. :p

[rock_nog]

I'm not saying you should do anything, other than recognize you have a choice. I think the VC encourages bad habits of trying to cash in on old games with NO effort to improve it. I wouldn't mind if it added something new but it doesn't.

Anything the VC can do, the PC can do better. :p
Except for my PC, which for some odd reason can't give smooth framerates. Decent framerates, sure, but there's always some stuttering, and that bugs the hell out of me. Also, let's face it, Nintendo makes damn good controllers (not that that's my primary reason, and yes I know gamepads are available for the PC, I've just never been terribly satisfied with any of them). And I like playing on my TV, and even though I could hook my computer to my TV, it's infinitely less hassle to buy it on VC and not have to move my computer in from the other room just to play a little Mario.

[Brasel]

Thats because Mott likes his emulators [which is a good thing].

I bought a couple of VC games, mainly just to play it on a TV. And before you say anything along the lines of "just buy a damned PC <-> TV cable", no. I'd rather sit on my ass and just have the games download instead of going out to radioshack or whatever, or god forbid eBay right now, and buy some cable [along with a new video card that supports it].

Also, I like how now my Wii menu is so much more interesting.

I got a PC<->TV cable with my laptop, and I do use it when I play my ROMs sometimes. I also have a PSX style controller that I use to play them. I mainly only play SNES and NES on emulation, and I wasn't a huge fan of N64 so, framerates aren't really a big deal. I'm glad to see both sides of it though.

[Mak-X]

Ease of use and setup.

Traditional emulation on PCs has always been a nice way to preserve and play old games that are no longer available, and I think that was the whole point. So I think its good that old games are being made available again for sale, it is a business after all.

It's easy to turn on the Wii via remote and start playing a game right away on my TV than setting up an emulator on my PC, hook the S-video output up and sound cable, etc.

I still have my NES, SNES, and N64 hooked up, but I imagine if I had sold most of my collection, I'd use virtual console much more.

Most of the systems are emulated well, with the NES, SNES, and Genesis outputing in their original low resolution (240p), instead of bumping them up to the usual line doubling, flicker and blurry 480i (see Turbographx-16 games), so they look just like they did on the original consoles. The suspend feature that acts like a sleep mode is nice too, not letting you cheat, but letting you pause like you would if you left the console on.

I'm glad Nintendo has taken the stance on not altering the games, like the ports of Mario and Zelda for GBA, and presenting them as they were.

I guess its a matter of ease of use, availablity, and taking for granted the free sharing of game roms instead of paying for them.

Lately I've been playing Super Mario Bros. 2 (Jpn) and loving it. A couple of weeks ago I played Adventures of Lolo for the first time in years and didn't worry about passwords.

[Masamune]

To be fair, even VC roms fuck up. I was over a friend's house, and we were playing bomberman '93. It's almost as if they never tested the rom out on the hardware before releasing it, the glitches were pretty annoying.

[Petoe]

There is no advantage except for noobs.

Just face it, if you prefer VC over the open ROMs on PC you just aren't very good at it and take the easy way out on VC. If you really want the best experience, it's not through VC.

Bullshit.
With VC you get the best experience, noob or not. You got to play the games on your big-ass TV (if you have one) and with a Nintendo controller. Ok, so the VC doesn't have save states and a "fast key", but the VC games come with instructions/tips and you don't have to worry about viruses etc.

[erm2003]

To be fair, even VC roms fuck up. I was over a friend's house, and we were playing bomberman '93. It's almost as if they never tested the rom out on the hardware before releasing it, the glitches were pretty annoying.

This is true in some cases. Again, the advantage is though they can release bug fixes then all you have to do is download the file again and it doesn't cost you anything extra. The idea is ultimately you should have solid game files to work with using VC.

[MottZilla]

Mak, as I remember the GameCube (and thus Wii) isn't capable of running in 256x240. It isn't capable of looking exactly like the originals. It's not a big deal, but I'm pretty sure GC always uses 640x480 but I could be wrong. You'd have to look it up in the SDK.

Ease of use, sure. For you and many others. Not for me. At anytime I have my PC ready to go, and my original Xbox ready to go.

Petoe, worry about viruses? Where did you get that? I can assure you that you are looking in the wrong places for ROMs if you are getting viruses. And if you use a decent browser, and don't open random executables, you won't get viruses.

[Mak-X]

Mak, as I remember the GameCube (and thus Wii) isn't capable of running in 256x240. It isn't capable of looking exactly like the originals. It's not a big deal, but I'm pretty sure GC always uses 640x480 but I could be wrong. You'd have to look it up in the SDK.

Yeah I think I read that Gamecube and Xbox could only do 640x480 (480i) at the minimum, while PS2 was capable of 320x240 (240P), which was true for PSone games.

Apparently the Wii was built for virtual console, and I can tell you NES, SNES, and Genesis games are running at their original low res (240p), while Turbographx-16 is a filtered high res 480i. When you bring up the Wii menu during an NES game, it goes from 240p to 480i. NES games also retain their original dark color tone that they had on the console, instead of making the graphics have brighter and more colorful than they originally were like some emulators and collections do (Mega Man Anniversary Collection, Zelda Collection). So games for those systems do look like the originals.

Old games in the Zelda collection and Sega Genesis collection on my old TV are hard on my eyes because they're 480i instead of 240p.

There was a good post about this here when the Wii came out
http://222b.livejournal.com/144560.html

[MottZilla]

That article makes me sad. People care entirely too much about "240p". Esspecially when your Wii should be hooked up to something like an LCD that supports 480p. That and if you are such a die hard fan for image accuracy you shouldn't be emulating anyway.

[vegeta1215]

I'm really interested why people go ahead and spend money on games that could easily be downloaded for free unless they really don't like the fact that ROMs are illegal.

I prefer not to pirate games, so the VC is a very nice option, even if it costs a little bit. Also, I played games on an emulator in the past, and it just feels much better playing with a real controller and using a real TV.

[rock_nog]

I freakin' hate LCD. I'll admit, I have an LCD for my computer monitor, because it's convenient, but I refuse to use anything but CRT for my TV-watching. You know, I think the whole 240p thing gets to the real heart of the matter, that VC is so good, you can't tell it's emulation. I have yet to see an emulator that can run a game as smoothly as VC. Which I think is strange, because it seems to me that a PC with a 2 GHZ processor ought to be able to flawlessly emulate an 8-bit NES game, but no matter how good the computer, no matter how good the emulator, there always seems to be a little stuttering.

Plus, it really is hard to get around the whole "Who wants to drag their computer into the living room so they can hook it up to their TV to play Mario?"

[Brasel]

I prefer not to pirate games, so the VC is a very nice option, even if it costs a little bit. Also, I played games on an emulator in the past, and it just feels much better playing with a real controller and using a real TV.

Now, the computer controller that I use might not be a real console controller, but its made from the same mold as a PS2 controller, and I can play on a TV, so it isn't really much different.

Still drunk.

[Warlock]

I freakin' hate LCD. I'll admit, I have an LCD for my computer monitor, because it's convenient, but I refuse to use anything but CRT for my TV-watching. You know, I think the whole 240p thing gets to the real heart of the matter, that VC is so good, you can't tell it's emulation. I have yet to see an emulator that can run a game as smoothly as VC. Which I think is strange, because it seems to me that a PC with a 2 GHZ processor ought to be able to flawlessly emulate an 8-bit NES game, but no matter how good the computer, no matter how good the emulator, there always seems to be a little stuttering.

Plus, it really is hard to get around the whole "Who wants to drag their computer into the living room so they can hook it up to their TV to play Mario?"

Eww.. how can you like CRT over LCD? Unless you have a really horrible set with a lot of ghosting or dead pixels, LCD is superior in just about every way. Not to mention CRT doesn't support HD resolutions :P

I haven't tried, but would you even notice much of an improvement using component cables in a CRT? I mean, there would have to be *some*, but I can't imagine it's as big a difference as it is on an LCD.

[rock_nog]

What are you talking about? The picture on CRT is crisp, clear, vibrant, and colorful. LCD, well... For starters, you have to make sure you're at a good angle, or else you can't see anything, and I hate being able to see the individual pixels. Ugh... CRT blurs things a bit so you don't notice as much.

[MottZilla]

rock_nog, your PC sucks, we get it. But other people like myself have systems that don't. When I run emulators they are as smooth as the real thing. They are exactly like the real thing when emulation permits. And I use a real console controller on my PC, it's not expensive to do.

240p and 480i are retarded to cite really. The game is built for some resolution, lets say 320x240. But developers might be lazy or unable to or just stupid and decide to use 640x480 and use 480i. Ok, so you scale everything 2X, not a big deal. The problems certainly come in if they use filtering and such but honestly are you sitting there with a magnifying glass while you play? And if you are such a purist I can't see how you can live with yourself using emulation.

I play the original systems for classic games via the best signal they normally output. That generally means RGB, on a real RGB monitor. They look fantastic. But what games on modern consoles were ported using 480i that you play that look shitty? I've heard of a handful of games that suffer. But many are NeoGeo games which I think if you care that much you'd have an original NeoGeo anyway.

CRT is not a bad display at all. Infact it's quite nice, and there are HD CRTs. By the way, how can your CRT be crisp, clear, vibrant, but also blurs? That doesn't make sense. I have a nice CRT, it's sharp and crystal clear (depending on signal type). Anything RGB is razor sharp and excellent. Composite video is sharp but not quite so because of the signal limitations. But nothing looks bad or less than good quality.

You can't generally see pixels on LCDs unless you have a dead pixel. Viewing angles vary on the quality of each LCD display, find a good one. Also you should note that CRT's don't have pixels at all. The electron beams just have concepts of color bursts or something along those lines. They aren't a grid of units that are pixels like LCDs.

I really think you just like the VC for what it is, and that's fine. But PC's and emulation are superb. I certainly have no problems with them.

[Mak-X]

People care entirely too much about "240p". Esspecially when your Wii should be hooked up to something like an LCD that supports 480p. That and if you are such a die hard fan for image accuracy you shouldn't be emulating anyway.

We're talking about emulation, and the Wii supporting low res is very important in emulating an old game well. I pointed out Wii can produce low res and I didn't put down other emulation, so I don't see what the argument is.


CRTs handle motion well, and have better black levels than LCDs, so in some ways, CRTs are still better than LCDs. LCD has no distortion issues, doesn't weigh much, and is capable of higher HD resolutions.

I'm actually looking to get a 27" CRT Sony Wega to replace my current TV if I can find one. I don't need another HDTV yet, and don't care for LCDs at the moment, mainly because of blur and upscaling. I just need a really good CRT to play everything I have. I have Component and S-Video cables just waiting to be used.

LCDs are fine for most people. CRTs are becoming extinct because of their weight and bulkiness.



Back to the original post, emulation has always been there to play the old games that could no longer been played, and that'll never change. Maybe if Virtual Console were introduced long ago to keep old games available, roms would be less justifiable?

[MottZilla]

I'm just saying that the difference between 240p and 480i can be extremely small when done well enough, and unless you really have a fine eye and can't put up with some small image distortion, what's the big deal? I agree it's nice that it's 240p/non interlaced. But it's not as though 480i is incapable of porting those games well. Fake scanlines, or just plain 2x scaling works just fine. Mainly I've seen these debates before and always thought the arguement over 480i versus 240 non-interlaced was stupid.

ROMs didn't come about for emulation anyway. ROM files on PCs first appeared in the 90s with people trading SNES and Genesis games on BBS that often were dialed into by phone. And even during the N64 days, ROMs again were pirates trading for use on "Backup Devices". Even arcade games in MAME, ROMs first appeared for arcade owners backing up or programming a EPROM to replace a bad ROM chip to fix their games.

Downloading ROMs of games you don't own can't really be justified other than maybe for archivial purposes or more often availability issues which VC addresses. Other times you might point to cost. Some games become collectors items which become highly valued, often insanely over valued. Forinstance Castlevania Dracula X on PC-Engine, is a game you'd spend 100$ or more to buy. And there are only so many copies out there. So there's I think a fairly justifiable reason for getting a ISO of that. However when it is released on PSP it won't be, atleast not as much.

[rock_nog]

CRTs are cheap, too. I don't really care about HDTV. sure it's nice, but regular TV is just fine.

[Breaker]

After I bought my 42" 1080p plasma, I'll never go back to playing games on anything less. I'm a huge fan of roms, but playing them on the Wii is pretty fun and convenient. I've only purchased Super Mario World, Ocarina of Time, and a few RPGs on the VC, many of which I also have the same roms of on my PC (which is connected via dmi to hdmi to my TV), but like I said, they're just convenient to play on the Wii.

They're really not that expensive to argue over either... *shrugs*