I'm annoyed

[Nick]

I've been waiting for a stable Zelda Classic release for over a year (most people have waited patiently for a much longer time). I know the developers are actually working on this, so I can cut some slack in this area. Freezing ZC suggestions and working on nothing but bug fixes has indeed made things much better. I can see the results in that area rather clearly and they are quite good. However, I suppose I'm still annoyed for a reason I'll get into shortly. Before I begin, I would like to say that I have nothing against DFW, Peteo, or any of the developers. Still... I'm just a tad annoyed about how everything has happened. I'm not mad... just annoyed. Don't do anything drastic because of what I'm about to say.

Why is it that one quest (technically two if one includes Origin) gets a special Zelda Classic build made stable for its purposes? I understand that Lost Isle is pure awesome and I have no doubt I will enjoy it immensely when I get time to sit down and play it, but it irks me that development time was spent solely making a version ONLY for Lost Isle. When I initially heard that a version was being made that would specifically be made for Lost Isle, I thought this meant that major bugs that could affect the quest would be fixed and then released as some sort of public build, since the bugs would probably be a problem for more than one quest. What I didn't expect was that a branch of ZC development was pretty much set aside only for Lost Isle (that's what I'm tending to believe since ZQuest was left out. Feel free to tell me otherwise if it is true). Note that I have no real problem with the fact that the editor was left out (though that was what initially made me react). I don't even mind that it was labeled the LI build. I'm mainly annoyed that the build was made only for LI in mind.

I probably sound rather childish with this. I really shouldn't be complaining, because Lost Isle is probably the best quest in the universe at the moment and a nice breath of fresh air (I'm not being sarcastic). But still, this entire situation isn't really sending me a good message. Does this mean that if someone of complete ownage wants to make a quest with an unstable branch of ZC, they just have to rope a developer or two into making their own branch stable specifically for the quest? I really don't know. Why is this even bothering me when no one else is annoyed?

I should probably instead be asking "What will the developers do now?" since this situation has already happened. I realize you guys are working on a stable release still, but this has just made me even more impatient.

Sorry... I should probably just shut up and enjoy LI (once again, not being sarcastic), but I can't help but think this every time I think of ideas for my own quests. Sorry. If some of my assumptions are incorrect, please correct me. In this situation, I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong.

[Freedom]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that really got upset over a stable build.
I got to the point I was TIRED of having carrots dangled before my nose, while the hard work I was doing on my own quests was being destroyed.
The way I see the lost isle thing is that DN polished up the 254 because they ask it of him, so they could release something they have been working on almost as long as I did Robinhood, before I shelved it.
I don't have a problem with that, I'd hate to have seen them shelve that one too, at least something made it out for folks to enjoy.
I have to say though, in the last week, my faith in a stable build has been starting to dwindle again, it seems suggestions were closed so now NES consistency has now taken it's place, so additions still continue, just different types of additions.
I guess time will tell, some of us will wait and see and others of us will just move on.
What else can ya do.

[Petoe]

Nick, how much do you know about all of the issues that resulted in this LI specific ZC build?

I have gone through this a million times already, but let's try one more time ;)

Wolfie and I were building LI on ZC 1.92 b183 because it was (and still is) the most stable ZC released (excluding 1.90 of course). But we had such big plans for the quest and b183 felt very limited. But we kept building the quest with b 183 until the betas seemed to get real good and stable (I think it was around Beta 11, 14 or something). Then we decided that it was a good idea and time to convert LI to the new betas since eveything was going so well and we all were promised a full stable ZC 2.5 release soon.

Then a new developer was brought in and things went for worse real fast. We got some surprising and awesome new features, but at the cost of insane amount of bugs and unstability. The release of 2.5 was pushed back indefinitely.

But Wolfie and I didn't stop. We kept hoping that a stable enough beta would be released soon so that we can release Lost Isle before the release of full 2.5. Everything was going fine again. The builds were getting more bugfree all the time etc. And then finally build254 was released. It felt perfect for LI. The ZQuest was nearly bugfree, and the ZC also was good and played LI without any big problems. And during those times there was talk about a new beta, Beta 18 being released soon. I thought it was the next step after b254 and when Beta 18 would be released, we could release Lost Isle for it.

But then a change was made to the custom enemy system and other unnecessary changes and additions were made as well and suddenly b254 quests became incompatible with furute ZC builds and betas. That felt like a really big blow for LI. yeah, we had b254 but it had some annoying bugs and Wolfie and I wanted LI to be a bugfree and stable experience.

We then asked around if one of the developers would be kind enough and help us to fix some of th b254 bugs so that we could make LI a bugfree quest, and after some time Dark Nation was kind enough to do that. he fixed the bugs that were affecting Li and now we have the Lost Isle Build, which plays LI almost perfectly, but it is in no way a perfect ZC. It still has tons of bugs and it is not compatible with furute Zc's, it just plays LI and origin well enough so that they could be released.

I seriously don't think that making the LI Build for us DN wasted too much of his time that otherwise would have went to the "real" ZC builds. of course I am not Dn and only he can answer that question, but I seriously doubt that DN helping us affected the status of the new builds much, if at all.

I perfectly understand if it feels like LI got some special treatment, and it kind of did I guess, but a big quest release can be just as important for ZC as a new ZC release, and since there was no new ZC release in sight, the release of Lost Isle was probably the second best thing. Without the LI build, Lost Isle would have been a buggy game and I don't know if we would have ever released it without a build that plays it well. I am sure most quest designers would have done the same thing, and once again I say that DN helping us probably didn't set the release of 2.5 back. He simply took b254, fixed some bugs for us and that's it.

I don't want to blame anyone for all of this, but both parties made mistakes. Wolfie and I for upgrading Li to the new builds and the developers for not keeping their promise of releasing ZC 2.5 around last winter. But that case have been talked about and closed long time ago, evrything is going well now and the furute of ZC looks bright.


If even after all that talk someone is irritated by the LI Build or feels it is unfair, then try to put yourself into my position and think for a second what you would have done in this same situation.
And without the LI Build, LI would have just been shelved indefinitely, would you have wanted that? Whether you hate or love LI, you can't deny that it has brought some much needed life to the ZC Discussion forums.

[SpykStorm]

I have to say though, in the last week, my faith in a stable build has been starting to dwindle again, it seems suggestions were closed so now NES consistency has now taken it's place, so additions still continue, just different types of additions.
Freedom, your right. I think they shoud wait after 2.5 to worry about NES consistency problems. It does'nt help me or any other build a quest. They should get ZC/ZQ stable, but I have to say thet it seems much more stable since DN made that poll.
I'm glad that Peteo asked DN to make the LI build. Lost Isle gave ZC what it needed.

[Freedom]

You know what?
I don't play a lot of quests, not even my own, no patience for it, but if memory serves the last "epic" quest released was Shoelace's Hod.
Not to diss any I may have missed or forgotten about.
It's just been too long, and though some disagree, I still believe a lot of people that used to come to play the quests, have moved on because of lack of activity.
Yep, the ZC community needed this release.

[ZTC]

But to play one stable quest? It seems a bit far-fetched to me. Whether or not this is a sample of what's coming to ZC, it's still a bit disappointing not to have a completely stable version yet.