Is ZC a closed source project?

[iwn12]

I never hear any discussion on it, so I figure it's closed source.

Im just wondering because Im interested in seeing it on other platforms and a few times I think to myself "It would be REALLY cool if this was ported to the PSP."

[Brandon]

I've seen this exact topic before, down to wanting it ported to the PSP.

I've since forgotten why DN said no, I'll try to find the other topic.

[Pineconn]

Um, for some reason a few weeks ago this URL appeared in my sig that brought me to a site where I could download the source for ZC. No, really, the URL just appeared for no reason. Clearly a higher-up put it there. But I didn't download it. So... I think it's supposed to be closed.

[_L_]

Zelda Classic must be closed source because it's the only way to ensure a consistent quest file format.

Also, the developers can't port it to any game console because:
* ZC uses Allegro.
* Allegro only supports Unix-likes, Windows, BeOS, QNX, Mac OS X and DOS.

[beefster09]

Why PSP anyway? ZC would be way more practical on the Wii or DS even if it could be ported.

I hate PSP. It has a serious lack of fun. I don't mean to be flaming at all.

[Glenn the Great]

Pretty much how it is, if someone else had the source code, better programmers would branch off a new Zelda Classic far superior to what we have now by building upon what exists and making the necessary refinements, and it would likely use a different quest format that may not be compatible with today's quests.

The new Zelda Classic might become very popular. Everyone might really enjoy it and start using it. AGN might not be privy to the new quest format, and will thus have a harder time competing with it.

AGN's keeping the project closed-source ensures that AGN continues to take full credit as being THE team behind custom Zelda content.

[Revfan9]

Zelda Classic must be closed source because it's the only way to ensure a consistent quest file format.

Also, the developers can't port it to any game console because:
* ZC uses Allegro.
* Allegro only supports Unix-likes, Windows, BeOS, QNX, Mac OS X and DOS.

Well, the game console porting problem can be easily solved:

1. Open the ZC source code.

2. Put your hands on the keyboard.

3. Change every line of code in the program to completely free the program from allegro

4. Port it to a game console

5. Do a victory dance

6. Get some Cheetos

[Pineconn]

Um, for some reason a few weeks ago this URL appeared in my sig that brought me to a site where I could download the source for ZC. No, really, the URL just appeared for no reason. But I didn't download it. So... I think it's supposed to be closed.

Then would it be a good idea to get the URL that had the source files to be shut down? I don't want to post it, since any average Joe would be able to access it. If a higher-up wants the URL, I'll send it to him or her so that it could be reported or whatnot.

[ColorPrinter]

Well, the game console porting problem can be easily solved:

1. Open the ZC source code.

2. Put your hands on the keyboard.

3. Change every line of code in the program to completely free the program from allegro

4. Port it to a game console

5. Do a victory dance

6. Get some Cheetos

I'm pretty sure ZC practically lives off of Allegro...and changing ZC to not need it would probably require a whole lot of work.

[Majora]

Basically re-writing the WHOLE THING from scratch...... not too much work I'm sure :sly: :evil: :nerd: :computer: :timemage: :reading:

[Glenn the Great]

Basically re-writing the WHOLE THING from scratch...... not too much work I'm sure :sly: :evil: :nerd: :computer: :timemage: :reading:

Most of the work in programming involves formulating the program logic, and getting it down. Thankfully, logic is universal. Having the logic before you, it wouldn't be so bad to get it in a form where the program is using the equivalent objects from a different library (like Java's, so it would be multi-platform compatible), instead of those from Allegro.

I hate it when all the groupies think they can speak with authority on programming matters. I'm a certified programmer. Take it from me, it isn't all that bad.

[koopa]

You could always port allegro to the PSP, Glenn ... :)

After all, it's only logic, can't be that hard.

[Stungun]

Keep in mind the simplest flaws to porting to another console: Controls.

The fallacy of porting to the PSP is that the PSP wouldn't have enough buttons for ZC; Remember, ZC has a LOT of keys that you use everywhere. A copy key, a paste key, a 'preview dark room' key, a 'switch drawing mode' key, a 'rebuild translucency table' key, keys to scroll through the combo list, bottom pane, delete the screen/tile/combo, switch screens... and not to mention, unless the PSP has a mouse...that would make things exponentially harder, the lack of a mouse. Plus, how are you going to input text strings?

Even ported to the Wii, it'd be hard to run; You'd need to make use of the onscreen keyboard concept. The DS would be much more merciful because the stylus could serve both as the mouse and as the keyboard; However, there'd need to be a button to switch the screen roles.

Also, I know you might be thinking 'Player only!' But even the ZC Player uses the keyboard. Entering cheat codes and names. Oh, don't forget, ZC's menu system requires a mouse, unless you want to make a very complicated button-based menu.

[Majora]

Most of the work in programming involves formulating the program logic, and getting it down. Thankfully, logic is universal. Having the logic before you, it wouldn't be so bad to get it in a form where the program is using the equivalent objects from a different library (like Java's, so it would be multi-platform compatible), instead of those from Allegro.

I hate it when all the groupies think they can speak with authority on programming matters. I'm a certified programmer. Take it from me, it isn't all that bad.


OK Mr. Wise-Guy, if you can give us a port to another system, or can make ZC not depend on Allegro, I'll bow down to you, and give you a cookie.

[iwn12]

Also, I know you might be thinking 'Player only!' But even the ZC Player uses the keyboard. Entering cheat codes and names. Oh, don't forget, ZC's menu system requires a mouse, unless you want to make a very complicated button-based menu.

But there are things you would have to let go of, sadly
I do have a button layout in mind:
O= A button
X= B button
[]=(programmable button)<-- maybe be "Mouse click"
^=(programmable button) <-- maybe be "toggle keyboard"
start= Start key (subscreen)
select= map
L= Toggle weapons left
R= Toggle weapons right
up,down,left,and right= up,down,left,and right (respectfully)
analog stick= mouse movement
L+R=Show menu

and this is pretty much the basis for the DS too, except analog stick is the touchscreen. Im only talking about the player because of these reasons

1)Don't think many people will want to "Edit quests "on the fly" "
2)lack of controls
3)would be too hard to use

the ONLY system I see an editor on, is the DS because of its possibilities with the touch screen. unless you use compatible Palm iRDA keyboard on the psp, then it COULD be possible.

I was reading some history on Allegro, and it was originally designed for the Atari ST.

Maybe a customized linux ZC and PSP-Linux(if it ever finalizes) MAY work too.

Im not saying, "Do this, make this, port this..." I just thought it may be a possibility. I would even take up the challenge of porting it. I'm gonna go take a look at Allegro now.

[Glenn the Great]

OK Mr. Wise-Guy, if you can give us a port to another system, or can make ZC not depend on Allegro, I'll bow down to you, and give you a cookie.

I don't know about porting it to another system, but I could remove it's Allegro dependency.

[Limzo]

Everyone, porting ZC to the PSP shouldn't happen, isn't happening, and won't ever happen. Capich&#233;?

[DarkDragon]

I personally believe ZC might benefit from converting to open source, but there are some good reasons to keep ZC closed:
1. As has been mentioned, quest compatibility is a big problem: if ZC forks, the different branches would almost certainly not produce mutually compatible quests. There are few enough new quests released as it is; splitting them among several different ZC versions would ensure they all die by creative starvation.
2. Opening the source would compromise the security of any old password-protected quests, a problem worsened by many user's habit of reusing the quest password elsewhere on the internet.


I'm a certified programmer.
But apparently neither a knowledgeable nor experienced one, judging from your naive claims above and your failure to even successfully compile ZC last time the source was stolen.

[Revfan9]

Keep in mind the simplest flaws to porting to another console: Controls.

The fallacy of porting to the PSP is that the PSP wouldn't have enough buttons for ZC; Remember, ZC has a LOT of keys that you use everywhere. A copy key, a paste key, a 'preview dark room' key, a 'switch drawing mode' key, a 'rebuild translucency table' key, keys to scroll through the combo list, bottom pane, delete the screen/tile/combo, switch screens... and not to mention, unless the PSP has a mouse...that would make things exponentially harder, the lack of a mouse. Plus, how are you going to input text strings?

Even ported to the Wii, it'd be hard to run; You'd need to make use of the onscreen keyboard concept. The DS would be much more merciful because the stylus could serve both as the mouse and as the keyboard; However, there'd need to be a button to switch the screen roles.

Also, I know you might be thinking 'Player only!' But even the ZC Player uses the keyboard. Entering cheat codes and names. Oh, don't forget, ZC's menu system requires a mouse, unless you want to make a very complicated button-based menu.


Umm... I'm pretty sure that they just meant porting the player to the PSP. Trying to port ZQ would be disastrous.

[Glenn the Great]

But apparently neither a knowledgeable nor experienced one, judging from your naive claims above and your failure to even successfully compile ZC last time the source was stolen.

I'll start changing an old beta over to Java, and we'll see what you think.

[koopa]

Let's for a moment presume we did remove allegro dependencies. What would we replace them with? Does libSDL work on the PSP?

[jman2050]

I would love to port ZC to PSP, and i considered doing so at one point. However, the problem extends far beyond simply porting the existing code. 32MB of memory is simply not enough with the current engine. Then there's the question of whether the PSP would be powerful enough, and so on and so forth. A Wii port would make so much more sense, but until it's cracked that's not feasible.

And ZC will remain closed source, 1) To protect quest security, 2) To keep things consistent, and 3) Because War Lord doesn't want it open-source.

[Glenn the Great]

I honestly think your time is better spent fixing bugs, making improvements, and adding features for PC versions rather than trying to put in on consoles.

[DarkDragon]

I'll start changing an old beta over to Java, and we'll see what you think.

Lol, using what graphics library? Swing? AWT? Sure, go for it :rolleyes:


I honestly think your time is better spent fixing bugs, making improvements, and adding features for PC versions rather than trying to put in on consoles.
I totally agree. Having ZC on the PSP would garner major "oh cool" points, but I don't think too many users would actually find it useful.

[Eliwood]

Lol, using what graphics library? Swing? AWT? Sure, go for it :rolleyes:

Swing and AWT are not graphics libraries. They are GUI libraries. Java2D is the standard graphics library right now, but most good Java gamedevs use LWJGL or JOGL, both which are OpenGL bindings. I personally use LWJGL even though it's not the officially endorsed library, and most hobbyists agree. Performance is good. I get over 2000 FPS with my project as opposed to 100 FPS with Java2D, which is CPU limited rather than GPU limited.

In the Java realm, the closest equivalent to Allegro would be Slick (http://slick.cokeandcode.com/), a game library that provides OpenGL graphics, sound playback through OpenAL, a game loop, a timer and few other things.

Not that I encourage such a move, but I'm just clearing up the technical side of things. To me, it would make a ton more sense to redo the editor in Java or something else than to redo the player.

[Glenn the Great]

Swing and AWT are not graphics libraries. They are GUI libraries. Java2D is the standard graphics library right now, but most good Java gamedevs use LWJGL or JOGL, both which are OpenGL bindings.

Right. I have no idea what DarkDragon was thinking when he said that. My plan was to use Java2D, but I will look into LWJGL and JOGL. Thanks for that suggestion.

[Majora]

OK, so I am now actually trying to learn C++ on my own. And I have the ZC Code, just so that I can look at it, and try to apply what I've learned to it. Is "C++ for Dummies" a good way to start? Thats just to start off. I will eventually buy an actual guide when I know ebough.

I hope/aspire* to be a ZC Dev someday. :reading: :shrug: :thumbsup: :computer:




*is "aspire" the right word? w/e, in any case, you get what i mean.

[Glenn the Great]

I'd suggest you try this page on Wikibooks (from the people who bring you Wikipedia)

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%2B%2B_Programming/TOC1

[Stungun]

Glenn, can you make up your mind? At one point you're saying 'It's easy, I would gladly port it to Java' and then a couple of posts later you tell them 'Your time is better spent fixing bugs'. Not only are you telling the developers what to do, but you make it sound like you're more capable than them or something. Leave the developing up to the developers.

From the way it sounds, you apparently don't like ZC or the organization behind it. You don't need to stay here if you don't want to. In fact, instead of trying to hint that the developers need to leak the source code to you, perhaps it would be easier just to write something with your own two hands instead of demanding a closed-source project becomes open-source for you.

In fact, why don't you get back to your Hyrule and Beyond project, if it even still exists? Last time I checked I got a server error from your website.

With what you're trying to get you might as well be trying to seek out the source code of Ocarina of Time (which is, admittedly, a concept I daydream about.)

EDIT: I also noticed that wikibook you linked to seems to be taking things from a dictionary perspective. It's highly intimidating even in the introduction; Most people would probably stop reading when they read all the technojargon on the first page and lie down, their heads hurting. He asked for 'C++ for Dummies' not 'C++ for Absolute Techheads'. Though it might get easier with time, and I could probably use this as a reference, I don't know if it's right for him.

[Majora]

Well, just to clarify, I was just asking if "C++ for Dummies" the book, is a good way to start. I recenly got a copy. As for the Wiki Book, I'm not goin near that for at least 3 months of actual.... (for lack of a better term) studying of C++. I've read the first couple of Chapters and so far I know what int, float, variables, strings, char and bool means/are. And some things associated with them (like how integer values are rounded off, which is why using float values is sometimes better, but their accuracy is limited to 6-15 decimal places.) I've started on the "performing Logical operations" part. :bouncy: :shy: :kawaii:

[DarkDragon]

Swing and AWT are not graphics libraries. They are GUI libraries.
I'm not sure I appreciate the distinction; as far as I'm concerned an API to draw primitives on a canvas => graphics library. Whether or not the library has additional functionality is entirely irrelevant.

Pointless semantics aside, I didn't know those two libraries existed, and am quite intrigued; one of my current research projects is a rapid prototyping framework whose server makes use of Java's dynamic class loading to allow users to replace simulation rules on the fly (much like Second Life). However the client has become unacceptably sluggish; I'd been thinking I'd need to port it to get back reasonable performance. I take it these Java OpenGL libraries have performance comparable to C++ implementations?

[Eliwood]

I take it these Java OpenGL libraries have performance comparable to C++ implementations?

They have identical performance to their C counterparts given that they are just Java-wrapped calls to the actual library thanks to JNI. The same goes for a host of other native libraries such as OpenAL, FMOD and more. Hobbyists and myself prefer LWJGL because it caters slightly better towards game development and also adopts a minimalist philosophy, but both end up doing the job equally well.

What has your profiler said about any potential bottlenecks in your code? Although Java2D is a major processor hog, it may not be the entire reason for the sluggish performance you are perceiving.

- Eliwood

[DarkDragon]

Approximately 70% of execution time is spent inside rendering methods. Of the remaining 30% the majority is in networking code that I can't really optimize further.
Turning off alpha blending helps a lot, but is not an acceptable long-term solution.