Religious Discrimination in North Carolina

[Beldaran]

A student in North Carolina (http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=43272&in_page_id=2) is being denied the right to practice his religion.

[Starkist]

If my religion involves naked chanting on my desk, can I get some lawyering?

I like their caption - "A man in full pirate regalia".

[Beldaran]

If my religion involves naked chanting on my desk, can I get some lawyering?

Naked Table Dancerists and Pastafarians alike should get the same rights a christian has when he wants to do something christian like wear a WWJD bracelet or a cross.

Of course, Christians are apparently better and can't be harassed for their crosses, jewelry, fish stickers, and WWJD bracelets. Because Christianity is somehow more "legitimate" than Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.

[redmage777]

What!? Its not about what those christians wear. Everybody knows that the Pasta Monster is made of Fetechine Alfraido with Chicken! this guys not a real Pastafarian, he's noth'in but a Hip-o-crit! That Pirate-dressed Spaghetti-with-meatball lot are nothing but a bunch of crazy lunatics.

[Darth Marsden]

If you're a Christian, you might wear, say, a necklace with a cross (Hmm, hasn't someone been in the news about that recently? Oh yeah. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6165368.stm)), or if you're a Muslim you might wear a veil (Wasn't that in the news as well? Yes it was. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6179842.stm)), but I'm sorry - a cult about a flying spaghetti monster that believes pirates are divine beings? No, that's just stupid. The line must be drawn somewhere.

[Daarkseid]

Because Christianity is somehow more "legitimate" than Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.

Number of adherents+tradition.

Its quite possible in some hypothetical alternate reality that the FSM is worshipped by 90 percent of Americans, and the idea of a carpenter born from a virgin, dying and in the process absolving us of our sins, is seen as ridiculous nonsense.

[redmage777]

Are you implying that the Flying Pasta Monster is ridiculous nonsense?

[Darth Marsden]

Implying? No. Flat out telling you? Yes.

[Beldaran]

Don't make fun of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He will smite you with his noodly appendage.

[Dechipher]

Number of adherents+tradition.

Its quite possible in some hypothetical alternate reality that the FSM is worshipped by 90 percent of Americans, and the idea of a carpenter born from a virgin, dying and in the process absolving us of our sins, is seen as ridiculous nonsense.

I just have to say I love your signature.

[Aegix Drakan]

0_o

P-p-p-PASTAFARIANISM?!?

0_o Sounds like something a friend of mine would've come up with. I'll go ask him if he's been to North Carolina lately.


I'm sure the guy who did this doesn't actually believe in this stuff, anyway. I think he's just trying to get attention and be funny about it.

And if a giant pasta monster tries to smite me, I'll just cover it in tomato sauce and eat it. Mmm...Spaghetti...

[redmage777]

Don't make fun of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He will smite you with his noodly appendage.

He tried that already... And I must say it tasted good. How else do I know he is really made out of Fetechine Alfraido?

[AtmaWeapon]

I do believe that for a religion to receive the protection of the Constitution it must be a religion that is acknowledged by the government, and even then there can be limitations placed upon worship if the method of worship is deemed disruptive or harmful to the general public. I have not researched the specifics of this but it seems most logical that there must be some criteria for what religions receive protection and what activities are protected because in reality we have no unlimited rights for good reason.

There is a logical basis on the limitation of freedom of religion based upon the government's limitation on freedom of speech. Profanity and hate speeches can be limited by the government to specific venues and times. It has been judged that, due to the offensive nature of some speech, the rights of those who may be offended are more important than the rights of the speaker to make his message known, therefore measures must be taken to protect the many at the cost of the few. Harmful speech (the cliched yelling "fire" in a crowded building when there is no fire) is limited as well and in many cases punished when done with malicious intent.

Based on this, one can assume that freedom of religion must have the same capacity for limitation. If your worship involves disruptive or dangerous conduct (the Holy Ghost People [snake handlers] come to mind) then the government reserves the right to restrict your ability to perform your worship services in public places. Furthermore, if the worship involves indecent or disruptive dress, I see no problems with the government (at the request of other citizens) having the ability to limit where this behavior can occur.

That said, I strongly question both sides of this situation. On the one hand, Pastafarianism is clearly an enterprise in satire and I sincerely doubt that any follower truly believes in the holy texts as much as they support the concept of using a completely ridiculous religion to explore exactly how religion is treated in law. From this viewpoint one can say that the student's claim that pirate regalia is a form of worship has no basis. On the other hand, I strongly question just how disruptive a man dressed like a pirate can be to the educational process.

Basically, I think it is ridiculous to suspend or even threaten punishment to a student for wearing a costume to class, so long as the student is able to provide identification in the event of attendance or security challenges. At the same time, I think it's seems more like this activity was performed deliberately to provoke a response, and I question the validity of whether the pirate dress should be protected as a form of worship.

In short, the student is a colossal prick who just effectively trolled his school. I have no doubt that in the future some important paperwork of his will get accidentally misplaced, and I'm not sure if a deity strong enough to overcome an angry bureaucracy exists.

[Beldaran]

the student is a colossal prick

Really, how do you know that? As far as I can tell, he's just really smart, disrespectful of idiotic authority, and has a good sense of humor.

[Darth Marsden]

In short, the student is a colossal prick who just effectively trolled his school.


Really, how do you know that? As far as I can tell, he's just really smart, disrespectful of idiotic authority, and has a good sense of humor.

You say Tomato, I say Tomato...

[SUCCESSOR]

This is nonsense. People seem to think they can just conure up their own religion.

The only true and holy faith is Tannenism. Spare yourselves anymore confusion and difficulties and just converts. It's preferred 3 to 1 over Christianity.

[The_Amaster]

The Great Pumpkin will kill you all for you're blatent disregard of his existance.

But seriously, the goverment endorses(maybe too strong a word) Christianity, because, well, lets face it, our goverment was founded by, and is mostly run by christiens

[Lilith]

Me and MY BOYFRIEND were talking the other day about how the flying spaghetti monster bullshit is even lamer than the Darwin fish. Join the 21st first century, Nietzsche!

[Majora]

I just have to say I love your signature.

Ditto, and I agree with the Sig one billion percent.

"The Decline in real pirates has led directly to global warming....."


Die hard christians, eat your hearts out

[AtmaWeapon]

Really, how do you know that? As far as I can tell, he's just really smart, disrespectful of idiotic authority, and has a good sense of humor.Because you like him :mad:

If there is still confusion I can draw a Venn Diagram to illustrate

[Beldaran]

Well, you can't just assume he's a colossal prick because you disagree with him anymore than I can assume he's smart and charming just because I like his style.

Draw all the Venn diagrams you want. I am not fearful of my faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster being damaged by set theory.

[AtmaWeapon]

I'm going to go with my assumption that he's a prick based on the idea that he is citing a religion that was created in satire to act as an aid to point out some problems with the "creationism in the classroom" clusterflop as the reason why he should be able to defy his school's requests to stop dressing as a pirate.

I would, however, retract my opinion if I had more information about the nature of these requests to stop trying so hard to avoid women. If the university asked him because some professor decided he didn't like it then I feel kind of sorry for the guy because it's pretty likely I could show up to class once or twice dressed like a pirate and honestly the professors would just kind of laugh and maybe ask me why but then just move on. If, on the other hand, the university asked him to stop at the request of students who felt uncomfortable being near such a gigantic nerd, then I continue to think he's a prick because someone's right to not believe the person next to them is mentally unstable is greater than his right to display his support of an internet phenomenon.

There's a pretty big difference between wearing a WWJD bracelet and dressing like a pirate. One is a piece of normal jewelry that just happens to be decorated with a religious emblem. The other is a gaudy costume that may or may not contain imitation weaponry and should only be worn on Halloween, when your Uncle Jake comes over, or porno flicks (see previous).

Also here is the Venn Diagram it has the added bonus of if you look at it on my laptop screen from my current reclined position, every color looks the same!
http://content.imagesocket.com/images/venn452.PNG (http://imagesocket.com/view/venn452.PNG) I don't know how Stephen J. Gould and the FSM got there I think it is my brain's clipboard leaking (we watched a movie with SJG in it today and he was fatter and nerdier than I thought :()

3rd edit ahoy! I think the diagram is a little inaccurate the FSM should more likely be the white background that is encompassing the entire set since we are all part of him or something

[redmage777]

Well, you can't just assume he's a colossal prick because you disagree with him anymore than I can assume he's smart and charming just because I like his style.

Actually he can... its same way you think all people who have a religion are idiots. Both of you are entitled to your opinon, no matter how narrow minded or steriotypical it may be.

I find this guys antics amusing, If you coulden't tell as much from my previous posts in this thread.

[koopa]

Even religions that are more "traditional" than FSM are subject to some restrictions, for instance one form of Sikh-ism requires male believers to carry a curved dagger at all times. That might work out in some wilder parts of India, but in inner-city London schools it's been banned, and I think rightly so.

Another big issue, at least here in Switzerland, is whether Muslim girls should be allowed to wear a headscarf, and whether their religion means they can't take part in compulsory sport and swimming lessons.

The list goes on ... basically, I think schools and the state should impose some rules on what is and what isn't aceptable; this should be done independently of religious views. If someone's religion requires them to act in a way that interferes with the ordinary running of the school (and a pirate costume would in my opinion fall in that category) then it shouldn't be allowed. Freedom of religion yes, but there are limits.

On the related issue of headscarves/veils, I think that in school and in public the veil or burqa - the one that covers the whole body except the eyes, or even versions that cover everything with no exception - shouldn't be allowed. This has nothing to do with being for of against Islam, more like "common sense".


A student has been suspended from school in America for coming to class dressed as a pirate.
If that's true, he wasn't exactly punished for his beliefs. If they'd forced him to convert to Christianity or leave, that'd be a a different matter - but I don't think they did.


The school, however, say that his pirate garb was disruptive.
Seconded.


His letter, also published on his website, demanded equal time be given to the teachings of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as was given to ID and evolutionary theory.

On this issue, I think it's only fair for religions with more tradition and followers to be treated first.


The school, in North Buncombe, North Carolina, remains adamant that their decision to suspend Killian for a day has nothing to do with his religion, and quite a lot to do with his repeated refusal to heed warnings against wearing pirate outfits.
Pretty much what I said.

[Icey]

That Venn diagram was fantastic... I really enjoyed it. Thanks for the laugh.

On the actual topic at hand, I like this kid's method of protest. It sure got his point across, right? He is in the news after all. However, I have no idea how wearing a pirate costume is disruptive to the learning process... perhaps other students reacted in an immature way, in which case THEY are the ones being disruptive.

[Darth Marsden]

I dunno, maybe his fellow students got fed up with him calling them 'wenches' and 'land-lubbers'.

And I have to agree with Koopa on the veil thing: it's pretty much common sense. As Jack Straw said, 'I felt uncomfortable about talking to someone "face-to-face" who I could not see.' (If you didn't know, Jack Straw is the leader of the Commons here in the UK, and his comments have prompted a rather large movement.)

[Beldaran]

its same way you think all people who have a religion are idiots.

I don't think all people who have a religion are idiots. I pointed out that Isaac Newton believed in god. I think all people who have religion are infected with a disease that does not change their intelligence in anyway, but rather allows them to accept spurious notions which can modify their behavior and cause them to behave like an idiot. Also, I think religion is idiotic.

Although I do happen to think most religious people are idiots, this is merely an extension of the fact that I think most people in general are idiots. Some of my best friends and a couple of influential people in my life that I really admire for some things are/were religious.

[The_Amaster]

I do happen to think most religious people are idiots

and


allows them to accept spurious notions which can modify their behavior and cause them to behave like an idiot.

Don't really seem to go along with


are infected with a disease that does not change their intelligence in anyway

[Darth Marsden]

I think (please do correct me if I'm wrong, Beldaran) when he calls people who are religious idiots, he's referring to die-hard fanatics who do nothing but praise God all the time or attack other countries for having different beliefs. People who happen to believe in God but don't let it rule their life would be what he means by infected with an innocuous* virus.

*Innocuous a. Not injurious, harmless (esp. of snakes); inoffensive; hence or cogn.

[AtmaWeapon]

this is merely an extension of the fact that I think most people in general are idiots.I am waiting on a published paper or formal proof because I too believe in this theory and I would be so stoked if I could start citing a paper about it!

[Beldaran]

My feeling on general idiocy is this:

If you can look around at the world around us and come to the conclusion that most people are not idiots, then you are one of the idiots.

Darth Marsden interpreted what I said correctly.

[Dechipher]

My feeling on general idiocy is this:

If you can look around at the world around us and come to the conclusion that most people are not idiots, then you are one of the idiots.

Darth Marsden interpreted what I said correctly.

Pretty much you need to put that shit as a disclaimer before you ever post anything, because basically I agree with you 100%, I just like arguing the other side, and I rarely get to do that in Oklahoma.

[The_Amaster]

Pretty much you need to put that shit as a disclaimer before you ever post anything, because basically I agree with you 100%, I just like arguing the other side, and I rarely get to do that in Oklahoma.

Ditto.

[AlexMax]

I don't think all people who have a religion are idiots. I pointed out that Isaac Newton believed in god. I think all people who have religion are infected with a disease that does not change their intelligence in anyway, but rather allows them to accept spurious notions which can modify their behavior and cause them to behave like an idiot. Also, I think religion is idiotic.

Sir Issac Newton beleived in a god. But then again, so did anyone else back then, and NOT beleiving in a god was probably quite dangerous to your continued existance on the planet. There are plenty of other famous scientists, especailly in recent centuries, who rejected arguments from religious institutions or refered to God from a Deist point of view, or even simply metaphorically (Einstien in particular), and those are probably the closest you can get to 'atheism' in their respective time periods.

I disagree with Bel's point about 90% of people being idiots. However, I generally find that most of the "Christians" I meet in every day to day life are simply going through the motions, maybe only occationally go to church, and simply haven't given it much thought because it was what they were brought up on and they don't really feel like moving out of their comfort zone of being assured an afterlife. In another couple of centuries, I presume these same people will probably consider themselves atheists for the similar reasons.

[AtmaWeapon]

I disagree with Bel's point about 90% of people being idiots. However, I generally find that most of the "Christians" I meet in every day to day life are simply going through the motions, maybe only occationally go to church, and simply haven't given it much thought because it was what they were brought up on and they don't really feel like moving out of their comfort zone of being assured an afterlife. In another couple of centuries, I presume these same people will probably consider themselves atheists for the similar reasons.This is actually really insightful and I agree 100% pretty much.

[Beldaran]

And I think it lends credibility to my theory that most people are idiots.

[SUCCESSOR]

I disagree with Bel's point about 90% of people being idiots. However, I generally find that most of the "Christians" I meet in every day to day life are simply going through the motions, maybe only occationally go to church, and simply haven't given it much thought because it was what they were brought up on and they don't really feel like moving out of their comfort zone of being assured an afterlife. In another couple of centuries, I presume these same people will probably consider themselves atheists for the similar reasons.


Yes, but these people that discard their religion, for the obvious idiocies they come to realize, quickly and easily conform to another practice or mentality equally as idiotic. Thus I must support the theory of Major Idiocy.. sorry The majority of the world are idiots.