If any of you like cool science topics...

[Toolie]

I'm alive and well and it's good to see that this place is still kicking, too.

I've been spending a lot of time as of recent working on a novel experimental calibration for our photomultiplier tubes for the florescence detectors at the Pierre Auger Observatory (http://www.auger.org) in Argentina.

If you go to "About the Observatory", there should be a link to a local site here at PSU with a good amount of Google Earth data you can view. It's really quite a massive array that's nearly finished being set up down there.

Anyway, I thought I would share what's going on with me recently and see if I can spark up some interesting physics or science conversation if anyone is interested.

Oh, I've been registered here for six years, I've just noticed. Wow-ee.

Ciao

[The_Amaster]

Sooo.....whatcha guys workin on down there, anyway?

[Toolie]

Well, in short, very high energy particles, many many times faster and more energetic than anything that we can create in the most massive particle accelerators, appear to be running through the universe at near light speed.

These high energy particles might cross into the path of Earth and will interact with atmospheric nitrogen nuclei to produce extremely energetic secondary particles. These secondary particles will pair-produce and interact with other atmospheric nuclei, in effect causing a giant cascade of particles to rain down on an area of a few square miles. When this happens, it emits ultraviolet light (in very small amounts) and most of these secondary particles end up making it to the surface.

By analyzing the intensity of the light emitted, we can determine the energy of the incident particle. By analyzing the particles which make it to the ground (which is what the ground array detectors are for), we can analyze what secondary particles were produced and what their energies were.

What's the sense in all of this? Well, these particles seem, at the moment, to be isotropic in origin - that is that they are coming from pretty much random directions. However, we don't have nearly enough data to be sure of that. Hopefully, experimental evidence will concur with new theories being developed to explain where these particles could get such tremendous energies from. However, if it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it is isotropic in origin, then we have a strange problem on our hands that will require theorists to rethink some fundamental universal processes.

[Pineconn]

I've been spending a lot of time as of recent working on a novel experimental calibration for our photomultiplier tubes for the florescence detectors at the Pierre Auger Observatory (http://www.auger.org) in Argentina.

Uh-huh, is that so. Those are some big words. ;)

~~~~

That actually sounds pretty interesting. Due to my being 15 years old, I'm not too educated in that field, but I'm always fascinated with outer space.


These high energy particles might cross into the path of Earth and will interact with atmospheric nitrogen nuclei to produce extremely energetic secondary particles. These secondary particles will pair-produce and interact with other atmospheric nuclei, in effect causing a giant cascade of particles to rain down on an area of a few square miles. When this happens, it emits ultraviolet light (in very small amounts) and most of these secondary particles end up making it to the surface.

So is that a bad thing or a good thing (or even both)? I suppose it could be both: bad because of UV contamination, good because you'd get to study them.

[The_Amaster]

Yeah.......I got kinda the gist of it, mainly because I watch Nova every chance I get. I mean, I know what your talking about, I've heard of it before. I just have no idea what the implications of such data is.

[Toolie]

The health effects from being impacted by a cosmic ray are negligible, I would say. We're studying specifically particles with energies above 10^20 electron volts (1 with 20 zeros after it volts of potential would be required to accelerate an electron to that kinetic energy). Particles with such extreme kinetic energies are not predicted by current theories and look to impact an area of one square kilometer about once a century or so. That's one of the motivations behind such a massive detector site; another being that the size of the air-shower cascade when it reaches the surface is a few square kilometers in area. With a detector this size we should be getting a couple of detections of the high energy cosmic particles per week.

However, less energetic particles, say 10^16 electron volts (eV) or so pass through the earth fairly regularly, and it's safe to say you've been impacted by a cosmic ray fairly recently, even today. More likely than not, you were hit by the secondary particles, but the effects would be the same. These things are moving with such extreme kinetic energy that they will only interact with a handful of nuclei in your body before exiting. The biological effects are marginal at best.

To get an idea of what kind of kind of kinetic energy we're dealing with here, let me cite a famous example observed in Utah. Dubbed the Oh-My-God particle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-energy_cosmic_ray), a proton was observed having a kinetic energy of 3 * 10^20 eV. That quantity is sort of hard to analyze, so converting to a human level this is roughly 50 joules. That is equivalent in kinetic energy to a baseball moving at 60 miles per hour. But what we're dealing with here is not a baseball, not something made of trillions and trillions of atoms and even more nucleons. No, this is the energy of one single proton.

So basically we're trying to figure out, where the hell does this stuff come from? And hopefully it's from somewhere specific, like colliding black holes or from rapidly changing magnetic fields of colliding galaxies. If it seems to be coming from everywhich way in the universe though, such as coming from the vacuum of space itself somehow, then we have a serious theoretical problem on our hands to explain.

[Pineconn]

There's something that truly makes my brain hurt - the black hole. An object so dense, it bends light, or so it is theorized.

Nah, a single atom being able to move a baseball 60 mph isn't that impressive... Ridiculous. Just ridiculous that these particles are created in the middle of nowhere and we can't come close to creating them. Well, I wish you luck in your studies to find the cause and/or origins of these particles.

[Toolie]

Actually an object with mass bends light to a degree, even you, though the effects are ridiculously minuscule. The sun does bend light to a measurable degree and that's how Einstein's theory of general relativity was proven around a hundred years ago during a solar eclipse. It was known that certain stars would be seen as near the edge of the sun during the solar eclipse, and that during the eclipse the sun would not be normally as bright as it is to drown out these stars, so they could see them. If relativity was correct, then the stars should not be seen where we knew they would be but instead we should see them in an incorrect position by a predicted amount. Indeed, that is what was observed and it laid to rest any remaining doubt in the scientific community and with the public of the validity of Einstein's bold claims.

A black hole, on the other hand, is something that has enough mass that light is bent into it and that's where it goes permanently, never to escape.

[The_Amaster]

Interesting...this just occurd to me...does that mean that the light actually feeds the black hole, as energy can't be destroyed? Unless the black hole somehow converts it and emits it another way...

[Pineconn]

Yikes, that is interesting. Number one, that light would theoretically feed a black hole, and two, that I used the word yikes.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

I've been spending a lot of time as of recent working on a novel experimental calibration for our photomultiplier tubes for the florescence detectors at the Pierre Auger Observatory (http://www.auger.org) in Argentina.

So, cyborgs?


Actually, it sounds like very interesting stuff. Pioneering sort of research, even, if I understand you correctly. You're not so much as investigating and studying these particles, so much as you're just trying to figure out where they come from, right? Studying them is a part of the research, but the main goal is to establish where they are coming from, and if possible, what is generating them. If you can find a source, such as black holes or the other stuff you mentioned, all is well in the universe (pun intended). If not, however, you'll have opened up a new debate in the world of physics. Correct?

This doesn't necessarily mean much to the everyday man, but as I understand it, you seem to be on the cutting edge of modern science. Cool.

[Lilith]

Sup Toolie, tell us about your life

I don't know science but :)

[Rainman]

That's awesome. I wish I had your work ethic because you are getting into a lot of interesting things. Of course you're in Physics so that's bound to happen.

[Toolie]

To Amaster42:
I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to gravity (and black holes) to be honest. I'm almost certain that in the vicinity of a black hole (where the matter that surrounds is falling in) called the accretion disc radiates an enormous amount of energy through electromagnetic waves/radiation and through maybe gravitational waves/radiation (see avatar). However, I'm not sure what exactly happens to the black hole when the energy enters it. It might increase the mass of the black hole. A black hole must have a definite mass in order to have a definite effect on space time around it. So the more massive a black hole, the more powerful. Or perhaps it could add to the angular momentum of the black hole, causing it to spin faster and faster. I think it's also possible to change the overall electrical charge of the black hole, too, but I'm not really sure how this works if it happens at all in practice.

To {DSG}DarkRaven:
You're pretty much right on, as far as I understand. From what I know, we don't really care so much about the particles, as they are average nuclei or protons which are pretty well understood. What is of interest to us is the possible origins of these particles and what processes gave them their energies. But also, the interactions of these particles at such extreme kinetic energies are probably causing things to happen that we have limited understanding. We frequently study high energy interactions in the few giant particle accelerators you've probably heard of around the world. These high energy interactions have helped us discover what exactly makes up matter, basically by busting it up into more fundamental pieces. What is very interesting is that these cosmic particles that are interacting in the atmosphere are interacting with energy levels millions of times more powerful than what we can create at our most powerful accelerators. So there could be some really neat stuff going on up in the sky every day that we have no idea how to observe. It'd be nice to work out a theoretical model of this.

To Lilith:
I'm doing pretty well actually. I'm looking to graduate next year from Penn State. After that, I'm not sure what I'm going to be doing. Physics is fun and everything, but I'm not sure if I'm really ready to be making a serious commitment like graduate study for a PhD yet. Part of me wants to keep flowing down this stream of life that's gently pushing me around, go to graduate school, earn my status symbol, make some dollars, and be content. But a big part of me cannot settle for content. So as of now, I think I'm going to apply for graduate schools, and if I get accepted I'm going to defer enrollment for a year or so and spend time traveling and getting to know myself and making sure it's something I really want to get myself into. I hope I find out I'm a great actor or writer or something, as if I had the capability I think I'd much rather be doing that.

Ryan / Rainman:
You'd be surprised how not-awesome my work-ethic is. You really should get a hold of me. My email address is mvertuli(at)gmail(dot)com and I'd really like to know what you're up to.

[Lilith]

Damn son. I've been dicking around downtown Chicago (and by dicking I mean working in a law firm) for shit pay but the boss has fake boobs and leaves interesting porn sites on the history so it's cool for the moment. Also moving back to the inner city soon to an awesome apartment/neighborhood so life is no longer going to suck. The neighborhood is a hub of creativity and bookstores and lit geeks and such so I am gathering my bearings ~ writing-wise ~ and getting ready to plow through...something. Yeah :D

School is on hold though due to shit pay and moving stuff. So idk. I'm like 3 years behind everyone my age (you) and not sure what to do about it other than maybe try and English tutor (I want to teach it) while doing online classes. Any info on loans/help/etc? If I recall you were ~ economically disadvantaged ~ like me so uuhhh, info plz.

[Beldaran]

I'm like 3 years behind everyone my age (you) and not sure what to do about it other than maybe try and English tutor (I want to teach it) while doing online classes.

I'm 25 years old. Last year I started working on my bachelors degree. There is no "life schedule" that we all have to be on. It's a ridiculous idea that your "behind" everyone. If you'r e not pregnant, on drugs, voting republican, or using food stamps to pay for your third abortion, you're not behind anyone. As long as you are working hard, improving yourself, learning things, and heading towards a goal, you're doing fine.



Any info on loans/help/etc? If I recall you were ~ economically disadvantaged ~ like me so uuhhh, info plz.

I'm economically disadvantaged in the sense that I have to pay for college by myself and I have zero dollars. I am borrowing 70% of my tuition from Bank of America's student loan program. It's easy, fast, and eternal.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

I went to college immediately after graduating high school, Lilith. I survived for a year before I realized I was in the wrong place, so I dropped out and moved back home. It was a tough time for me. And guess what I got in the mail two years later? That's right, an invitation to my graduation (it was a three year program). If there's a better way to feel like an academic loser, I haven't yet heard it.

It's almost been a year since that even happened, and I'm just now in a good position to start going back to school. Sure, I could've kept going all along, but I'm not too keen on being several thousand in debt while still living at home with my parents. It may be a necessary evil I'll have to face someday, though.

If you want to get back into school, student loans are some of the few truly justifiable debts these days. Go for it. Better to be making money and paying off debt than barely making enough to get by.

[Glitch]

Sup Toolbelt!

[Modus Ponens]

I'm looking to graduate next year from Penn State. After that, I'm not sure what I'm going to be doing.

I hear there's a research facility in New Mexico that's looking for physics buffs. They're called...uh...Black Mesa or something. I don't remember. Anyway, can you fire a gun?