A Swordless Quest(late beta)

[AmazingAmpharos]

Okay, I'd been working on this for quite a while(well, a while in my book at least), and it's at the point where I need external feedback. It's a quest that's meant to be in the style of the 1st/2nd quest in many ways, though I exceed that at times. Notably, only 1st.qst and 2nd.qst items and enemies appear and a slightly modified classic tileset is used, but I was a bit more liberal with stuff like flags and did use a few of the newest features in subtle ways. There's also a postgame dungeon full of custom stuff, but I won't say anything more about that.

http://rapidshare.com/files/59858118/Swordless.qst.html

This was last saved in build 584.

A few notes to those who intend to play:

1. Once you get some bombs, always try to keep a fewwith you. If you get eaten by a Like Like, this will be your only way to escape (Like Likes are rare, don't worry).

2. I strongly advise you to do dungeon 1 first, but I worked to try to make the quest as non-linear as possible. It will, of course, be easiest if you do it in order.

3. The difficulty curve is my biggest concern about this quest. I tried to make it start fairly easy and get gradually harder. The first dungeon should be really easy even without much in terms of means to fight, and dungeons 8 and 9 should be fairly rigorous. I'm constantly looking for ways to improve the quest in this regard.

4. Buy Arrows before you get the Bow.

5. You could consider leaving Zelda there in the end; there may be some sort of hidden 10th dungeon.


So, play away, and be sure to point out any problems be they bugs in the quest(there shouldn't be many) or general problems in the game design. I hope you all enjoy it!

(By the way, I'm pretty sure this version was left unpassworded. If you want it to be any fun, I wouldn't use that fact to cheat, but if you wanted to look at the design in more detail, it's there for you)

[_L_]

If you're going to make a Classic tileset quest, there's one thing that you must do: edit the palettes! C'mon, we all know the default colours. Mix them up a bit!

Okay, now for problems:
* Lanmolas are generated right in front of the door.
* Lanmolas do 2 hearts per hit. (Maybe you should edit them? Except not quite right now because I'm... (http://www.armageddongames.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96042))

Other comments:
* Do you give the Magic Bomb Bag at some point?

[AmazingAmpharos]

Yeah, that reminds me that another boss will end up spawning right by the entry too. Bosses have such weird spawning mechanics... I'll be sure to fix that.

Is 2 hearts really so bad? It's a slow, powerful enemy, and it has a way of dropping hearts as the fight goes on. It would be a simple task to power it down to 1 heart of damage, but is it for the best?

There is no Magic Bomb Bag in this quest. My least favorite part of the original swordless quest was the way that a certain few dungeons were just entirely about managing a wholly inadequate bomb supply so I just didn't really put many Wizzrobes in and tried to downplay the nessecity to have bombs in combat.

I didn't leave the pallettes completely unchanged(try heading west from the starting area), but they didn't see a whole lot of change true. I figured that it really didn't matter for dungeons(color A + color B...), and I can't think of better colors for most of the overworld than the greens and browns. I suppose if I felt like making changes for change's sake I could pretty easily mix and match the color As and color Bs in the dungeons, but would it really make the quest any better?

EDIT: Hmm, it seems Lanmolas always spawn in the same spot even if you set the enemy flag to say otherwise. Well, I guess the only option is to mirror the top half of the dungeon since that is really bad. I don't know what I'm going to do about dungeon 8's boss though; I'll have to flip around something clever.

EDIT2: I wonder if anyone's still reading this... Still, I'll refrain from the multi-post I guess, and I'll just post the latest update to this:

http://rapidshare.com/files/17177046/Swordless.qst.html

In this, I flipped around the top of dungeon 1 so the Lanmolas would no longer spawn right next to Link, and I cleaned up the way the dark room in that dungeon worked as well so it should be a bit more natural. I also fixed the candle so the fire animates which should be a nice enhancement to the experience. This was last saved in build 224 so I guess I'm pretty much promoting the use of the latest alpha builds. Of course, this isn't so bad at all since by playing this quest you are simultaneously helping me out by testing and reviewing my quest and helping ZC as a whole out by testing the build.

[Han]

I have a bug in level A. If you enter the last chamber before the topchamber ZC 2.11 will block and you have to start over again.
Also have a question. Where do I find level 4?

Han

[sctmorgan]

Nevermind, found it.

[AmazingAmpharos]

(wow, a post!)

Hmm, so level A is blocking you from progressing in the second to last room? That door should open when you kill all the Keese and did as such in all my previous tests, but I'll look into it. A version change might have mucked it up. Don't worry too much about level A though since the only prize is a heart container; there's nothing in there you need to progress the game.

Level 4 is in the graveyard in a fairly conspicuous location(no, not the staircase you can see; you can't get into there for a while). You're going to have to solve the maze path in the forest to get there. You should be able to find a hint as per the solution somewhere around the starting area, but if you can't find it, it's not too hard to just trial and error. I'd advise you to search around the area north of the graveyard a bit before you save and quit afterwards since you might find something that could save you the long trip through the forest to get back there every time and would generally give you easy access to most of the world.

EDIT: Alas, build 229 won't run on my computer so, yeah, no checking out that bug until the next build...

EDIT 2: Um, I can't replicate the Level A thing; it works perfectly fine for me. Can you elaborate on what happens? If you mean the way the game warps you out of the dungeon after you leave the boss chamber, that's intended behavoir. That heart container the boss drops is the only point of the dungeon(I decided just having heart containers sitting on the overworld was overgenerous). However, I must say that I'm impressed if you managed to clear Level A before going into Level 4. While Level A is technically beatable anytime after level 1, it's not really a very friendly place for that early in the game. However, some good did come out of me trying to track down problems with Level A as I noticed how awkward those statues over the water look, and an annoying bug in the quest involving the Wooden Sword in a passageway in Level 2 was revealed to me to have not gone away.

[AmazingAmpharos]

Sorry to bump, but I'm really wondering if anyone made it into the depths of the quest. As far as I know, I'm the only person who has ever seen dungeons 6-9 or the endgame extra dungeon, and that would be too bad if it were true as I focused my efforts on the lategame for sure. I'm feeling like the quest is mostly complete, but I would hesitate to call it as such without some sort of review by someone else who has finished it(because I'm biased in favor of my own work). Of course, I'd be happy to hear about the progress of anyone who is playing it.

I have made a new version of sorts based on a good number of minor problems I noticed replaying it(minor bugs, etc.), but if there's no interest, there's really no reason to release it. Hmm, I guess I didn't do that whole screenshot thing, but I figured that I wasn't going to be winning any points with graphics(and that everything cool felt like a spoiler) so I abstained. I could show a few if people think it would be interesting though.

[elise]

it's always a good thing to show screens , that way people get more interested in downloading a quest .
I haven't play it yet but noticed this one

1. Once you get some bombs, always try to keep at least one with you. If you get eaten by a Like Like, this will be your only way to escape.
If there are more then one like likes on a screen then there is your first bug ;)

[AmazingAmpharos]

Thinking over the quest, I can only think of one room that would be a problem like that, but the only enemy that's really a workable replacement for Like Likes in the context I use them(slow moving, low damage tanks) is the Ghini which I'm lax to put in large numbers due to their lack of homing(which actually makes them more annoying to fight). Hmm, I'll have to think over the whole design around that; only careless players are going to find themselves stuck without means of escape(I don't start trying to knock you in until lategame when you have the Wand), but it can happen.

As per screenshots, well, I took a good number of them. Most are early game, but I slipped in a few later ones. I hope this excites people, though I warn you that this is pretty basic classic tileset stuff:

http://i19.tinypic.com/4hua1l4.jpg http://i16.tinypic.com/2pyp455.jpg
Ah, beautiful Lake Hylia. . . . . . . . . . . Those Zols are serious buisiness.

http://i16.tinypic.com/4gzjbki.jpg http://i15.tinypic.com/2vxn7sp.jpg
Oh man, that's a scary first boss, but that's a great prize!

http://i19.tinypic.com/2i2683a.jpg http://i18.tinypic.com/2jez5o4.jpg
The Dark Woods are scary, but there just might be a dungeon here!

http://i16.tinypic.com/2q30var.jpg http://i19.tinypic.com/2n99l07.jpg

Gels and fireballs are scary, but perhaps they're nicer than the Goriyas.

http://i15.tinypic.com/44gssnd.jpg http://i16.tinypic.com/2lctg6b.jpg

This screen is important. . . . . . . . . . The Darknuts won't take your bait.

http://i19.tinypic.com/4i487ya.jpg

What could be the meaning of this screen?

Well, that's it. There's a lot of fairly cool things I could show(like what's east of the "important" screen), but I want to keep the secrets of the quest for people to discover as well.

[Gleeok]

This quest is great and i'm really diggin it sofar. I'm trying to find lv4 at the moment, but rest assured I will will see lv 6-9. Is there a 2cd swordless quest in the works? Maybe like 1st, 2cd , 3rd etc. as it seems worthy of being an alternative to the LOZ quests we all know fairly well by now. Did I mention I love this quest? Nicely done ;P

[AmazingAmpharos]

You just made my day. My day will probably be made again whenever you reach the end of dungeon 6.

I don't think my overworld lends itself to being re-arranged into a 2nd quest type format. I have a few clever places for extra dungeons, but I don't think that I have enough to really totally redo it. I tried once actually, but I just couldn't make it work. I currently don't have any active projects on ZQuest, but I have something fairly radically different planned. However, I can't go forward at all (not even really do anything) until _L_'s new enemy editor and the ability to have multiple of the same item family are added (I think both are just a matter of time).

Level 4 shouldn't be hard to find, and once you do reach the place that it is, the overworld will really open up to you. The difficultly does start to ramp up starting with Level 4, but I figure that that's about when the player should be ready for it!

The version posted here is a somewhat older version than what I currently have, but it's bug free to my knowledge (there might be a misaligned tile in the NE corner of the world; I can't remember if I had fixed that at that time). If you run into major issues such as an item not working, it's probably from version mixing problems, and I can easily supply a fix. Otherwise, what you have is fine, and I'll hold back what I have as I continue to keep it updated awaiting the release of 2.5 (which is going to be the final version for it).

Of course, if you find problems that are not bugs but design flaws, please let me know. I tried to make the gameplay interesting and progressive in difficultly, but as the only tester who is also naturally biased toward his own work, I can't be 100% sure that I didn't have some rough spots. This was my first quest and still my only one so learning from it is always good!

[Gleeok]

Ah! Just finished beating it! Whew, I didn't realize Ganon was so hard with only the wooden sword. Man, that just ganked my red potion from me. I think i'll write a short review of it in a couple of minutes. This is the first quest i've actually played all the way through in some odd months. I'ts the balanced gameplay i think, it keeps picking up momentum all the way through, and thats something that even the "best" quest designers sometimes have trouble with. Good stuff. ;)

[AmazingAmpharos]

Awesome, that was pretty fast to beat the whole thing. I'm interested to see what you have to say about it in hindsight of completion.

Did you find everything? Every item from Zelda 1 was in there somewhere, though the bomb capacity upgrades are things I wouldn't expect many people to find, and the Red Ring was in about as difficult of a place as I could devise. Did you check out Savage Labyrinth? Did you find and complete all the lettered levels? It would be too bad if you rescued Zelda without seeing everything; Zelda Classic frustratingly ruins your file after you do that.

So yeah, it's really cool that someone else has beaten it, and I'm happy that you liked it. Balanced, progressive gameplay was my biggest focus designing it; it makes me happy to hear that I succeeded.

[Gleeok]

Heh, well i wasn't able to find any bomb upgrades, didn't get the red ring, missed lv E, and the silver arrow was a nightmare(I missed something obvious), probably some other stuff as well. I'll get to the "bonus dungeon" later, but i'm comfortable with the blue ring and white sword for that.

Just some quick questions; Is there going to be a second quest-custom items-A,B item thing-pallete upgrade?

[AmazingAmpharos]

If you beat it with the Blue Ring and White Sword, I'll be amazed. Actually, there's nothing but a whole lot of fighting in said optional dungeon, and it's designed to kill you. As I said, literally every item that was in Zelda 1 is in this quest, and nothing is in there. You might be able to use that to logically conclude where some stuff is, maybe not.

Heh, gogo Silver Arrow. I have a feeling that I know what got you stuck on finding it; that room was meant to be misleading after all. Well, at least I think I know what was the tricky part about finding it; I doubt a little block pushing puzzle would snag someone for too long. I guess I'll just say the bare minimum things about the locations of those things, if you care to find them:

Red Ring - It's somewhere in Level 9. Be suspicious.
Level E - It's behind a bombable wall.
Bomb Upgrades - The 2nd quest inspired some secret hiding too.

Those aren't quick questions at all, but in the sake of making them into quick questions, I'll give quick answers that don't begin to explain everything I should need to explain about them:

second quest - not unless I get a sense that there's a greater demand than indicated by one person beating it 4 months after I post it
custom items - I think that's outside the scope of the core design of this quest
A/B - maybe, depending on whether I can resolve myself to the previous concerns about it
palettes - If someone can explain what better means in a way in which the definition of better is not tied to the concept of being different for the sake of being different, then sure I'll spruce it up. If different for the sake of being different is really the whole concern and if it's an overwhelming concern from everybody but me (noting that you're not the first to take issue with the palettes), I'll make a second version with random different colors. It will take me 5-10 minutes, and I would never personally play it. I swear that I will be honest when I say random; dice rolls will be involved in it.

So yeah, I guess I can't overstate how... surprising it is that someone went and beat this so long after I left the topic to die, and it's double cool to hear a positive impression. Now I guess I'm just waiting for the final review of the thing; I'm interested to hear about opinions on the different specific elements/dungeons. I'm also curious about your final death count (I'll be sad if it's a legitimate, no reset 0), but that sort of thing depends more on your general skills at Zelda than at what I did in the quest.

[Gleeok]

Stupid ZC making me start over at 3 hearts.....But i saw it's not passworded so I just checked off everything I ended with and started anew...then I died.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/77b6fe0b545d637baee590bdaa5f941a4g.jpg

Damn, thats not even halfway....grrr....i'm gonna get you...right... white sword...blue ring...no problem.....yep.....Just collecting my thoughts....

So uhh...wheres the master sword at? ....no wait, dont answer that...give me a couple of days then tell me...I can do it..no problem!

whew...hehe. I always like a challenge.

[AmazingAmpharos]

You bought the BOOK! HAHAHA! I thought no one would ever actually buy it. Well, I guess it's partially preference, and that's why I included it for sale. I do imagine that it's making your life harder rather than easier right about now.

I didn't expect the unpassworded to be used like that, but hey, its always good. Just don't use it to cheat and find where those other items are or, even worse, cheat and just give yourself those items!

You're going to be very angry once you make it a few rooms farther if you don't have 200 rupees. No, it's not a money or life room or anything that will block your progress, but you'll still be very angry. Just take my word on it.

You missed the two bomb capacity upgrades, the Magic Key, the Red Ring, a heart container, and the Magic Sword. That's quite a bit really, and unless you are insane or something with turning back at ridiculous times, you missed both Feed the Goriya rooms. The Bait really isn't in there just to distract enemies (however valuable that may be...). Well, at least you found the Magic Boomerang... I already dropped a few hints about where some of the things you missed were so if you decide that your Blue Ring, White Sword, LEEROY JENKINS assault plan isn't so great, feel free to check that out and try to find them.

[Gleeok]

Hah, yeah... I thought I needed the book to trigger a screen flag. Kinda like JQ2, but i didn't after all. It has, amazingly enough, proven quite useful in certain places. It's funny that way.

I
didn't expect the unpassworded to be used like that, but hey, its always good. Just don't use it to cheat and find where those other items are or, even worse, cheat and just give yourself those items!

Actually haven't even looked at it yet, maybe later though. As for my Leeroy Jenkins strategy, i've gotten to the end of row 6, (only 2 more to go) and now that the bosses and those pesky patra's are kaput, and i've restocked on the essentials, i'm poised to finish it off at some point. Sofar my death count is at 6, that's including a couple retry's.

You may laugh at me all you want, but I do not believe it is beyond my ability to ascend this dungeon with only the white sword, and the blue ring. I've actually been meaning to make another "combat training" type quest, but this ones just as good. Keep up the good work! I look forward to playing another one of your quests, should you make one, ;P :)

[The Enigma]

oh hey, this must be the quest u mentioned to me on the lttp forum, cant seem to download it though, it seems those old rapidshare links dont work anymore. this quest sounds like a good challenge though, but i guess its not totally "finished" yet as i cant find it in the quest database list. ill wait for the finished version i guess.

"Sorry to bump, but I'm really wondering if anyone made it into the depths of the quest. As far as I know, I'm the only person who has ever seen dungeons 6-9 or the endgame extra dungeon, and that would be too bad if it were true as I focused my efforts on the lategame for sure."

heh, dont worry i do intend to make it to the final dungeon. though i see gleeok has already done so, but i plan to be the next!

[AmazingAmpharos]

Haha, good timing since I just finished testing the final version (well, final before 2.5). Digging up this thread saves me some time making screenshots, but I do have to figure out how to handle submissions to the Quest Database (that whole "direct link" thing seems a problem; does someone have a free uploader that actually lets you do this?). Do note that I added an extra postgame dungeon to this new version, one that hopefully would give even Gleeok a bit of trouble (just don't do it before Savage Labyrinth the treasures would destroy the Labyrinth).

http://rapidshare.com/files/59858118/Swordless.qst.html

This is completed for build 584 which can be downloaded at www.shardstorm.com. It probably works on later builds, but I can't promise anything. Definitely don't use earlier builds.

There's a link to the completed quest; I could use another file uploader if people don't like that one just someone give me one. I'm pretty sure it's bugfree as I was very careful, but it's possible that there might be an issue. If you encounter any problems, just post and let me know.

[erm2003]

I just tried sending you a PM so I could fix a small issue, but since you can't receive them I will just post it here.

I have processed your submission. Just two things I wanted to make sure you know:

1. Make sure you directly link to the quest file or zip file next time. I am fortunate enough to have webspace to upload to but not all the staff may have that so not everyone can process your submission the way it was.

2. One of the screen shot links was broken. If you can figure out which one is missing and send me the direct link I can add it in.

Thanks for the submission!

[AmazingAmpharos]

Sorry about the direct link thing, but I was having a lot of trouble finding a place that would let me direct link to arbitrary file types for free without having to sign up for anything/pay. I'll try to find something for next time.

Upon further reflection, I've realized that the specific screenshot that got deleted was one that is a screen that is not the same in the version I submitted so, um, good fortune. By send I assume you mean post so here's a fixed version:

http://i24.tinypic.com/ic4nza.jpg

Thank you for processing it; I'm sure that having this on the qdb will be a real boon toward getting people to play it!

[Gleeok]

Do note that I added an extra postgame dungeon to this new version, one that hopefully would give even Gleeok a bit of trouble

For me? Aww, you shouldn't have. :rolleyes:


Also there is a bit of a delay on the screen shot, but I assure you it will get added. In the meantime I added the first rating of five stars because it's a blast to play. So it's temporarily the #1 rated quest. ;)

[erm2003]

CK added the screenshot in for you so the submission should be complete now.