I'm going to be re-jiggering the custom enemy system...

[_L_]

...so it's likely that your Enemies will revert to the defaults in a coming build. Just so you know.

Anyway, my first improvement is combining the enemy types "Walking Enemy, Walker/Shooter", "Goriya", "Bubble", "Zol" and "Zol Tribble" into one single "Walker/Shooter" enemy type.

The misc. flags for this proposed supertype will look like this:

misc1: Attack Type. 0 = normal, 1 = fires weapon on each tile (i.e Fire Zol), 2 = fires weapons constantly (or has homing boomerang), 3 = fires three weapons, 4 = fires four weapons, 5 = fires five weapons, 7 = stream of weapons (Fire Octorok), 8 = fires eight weapons
misc2: Suicide Attack. 1 = splits on damage, 2 = splits on death, 3 = fires eight weapons on death
misc3: ID of enemy to split into.
misc4: number of enemies to split into.
misc5: ID of enemy to "grow up" into after 256 frames.
misc6: Affects how many times it will fire when it stops to fire. No effect if misc1 = 7 or 2
misc7: Status Effects. 1 = temporary jinx, 2 = permanent jinx, 3 = remove jinx, 4 = lose magic, 5 = take rupees, 6 = make Link "drunk"
misc8: Status Effect Strength. If misc7 < 4, then 0 = sword, 1 = item, 2 = both. Otherwise, the amount of magic/rupees to take away.

Also, all of the weakness and resistance flags will work. However, breaking an enemy's shields won't cause it to change tiles unless it has the "Darknut Walk" or "New Darknut Walk" animation types.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Why? Explaining the reasoning why you are doing this.

[C-Dawg]

Because he's making the thing work better? It's a beta, after all.

That said, lack of reverse compatability is a bitch, ya know.

[jman2050]

Are you sure you're gonna be able to redo the enemy code needed to get this to work?

[_L_]

I've done most of it already. All I need to do is get the shields to work correctly. Also, figure out why the Gel's movement system is seemingly completely different to the Zol's.

After that, I'll work at uniting Keese and Peahats...

[ShadowTiger]

They do seem to move differently. >.>'

I can see why this change would be a nice one. It combines the best and most frequently used attributes of all the enemies into one simple formula.

[Radien ZC]

I must say this could potentially improve the enemy system, since it would ensure that fewer enemy classifications have their own distinct rules, particularly with regards to the "weapon" each uses.

That is, if it's coded correctly. :P If what we have now is just replaced with a bunch of bugs that never get squashed, then of course no one will like it...

[jman2050]

Well, if you think it won't cause any problems, I'm okay with it. All the neccesary code is there, its just putting it all together.

[Dark Nation]

And there's NO way to convert the current custom enemies to the new format?

[_L_]

Not unless you guys want to change all the Misc. Attributes for all of the enemies in your quests by hand...

Also, I think I've figured out what the differences in the Gel's movement system are for - it's to make them initially move outward when they're created by a split Zol. So, I think I can bring them into the "Walker" type as well...

[beefster09]

I'd rather just have to change to accommodate, than to have to completely remake the enemy. But for all of the pre-made enemies, just reset the misc. atts.

[DarkFlameWolf]

don't like where this is going, its like you're assuming you know what the questmaker wants rather than leaving the decision up to the quest maker.

[redmage777]

For the likes of DarkFlameWolf, Why not just add this new "Super Walker" class in and leave all the old classes in? I personally don't care about having to reset the enemies, this new class will allow me to create more unique monsters so starting over almost make sense. Now I just wish Rope, Like like, and Wall Master were thrown into to the mix as well. Guess their arn't enough Misc Attributess.

[idontknow]

Question:
What does "Make Link Drunk" actually mean? Does it make the screen go dizzy so its hard to see? Does it reverse controls? Does it make him lose 1 heart per second?

[Master_of_Power]

reverse controls

[Beta Link]

So now, it'll be possible to make the Wind Waker Poes (or at least part of them) without scripting? :tongue: And I agree with redmage777 that there should be a way to use the Wallmaster, Like Like, etc. behavior using misc. flags. But only if it's possible.

[Radien ZC]

What exactly do you mean by "have to reassign all of the misc. attributes for all enemies by hand?" (or thereabouts)

In what situation would this be necessary, and to what purpose? I'm afraid I don't understand.

[The_Amaster]

I'm pretty sure that L wouldn't reset the attributes of ALL the standard enemies to be set by hand. Would you....Only I know a guy who knows a guy who can deal with people like you, if ya know what I mean.:whap:

[_L_]

Well, okay, maybe I could make a routine wherein it takes the old enemies and automatically reassigns their types and misc attributes based on their misc10 and their enemy type... I'm just not entirely sure how complex it will get. Apart from changing the meanings of misc. attributes and shortening the number of types, I've also fixed some default data bugs (such as Darknuts being immune to hammers.)

...actually, now that I've written it down, it doesn't sound as difficult as I thought.

(P.S: Another thing I've done is eliminate the "Rope 2 doesn't flash", "Bubble doesn't flash" and "1.90-style Tribbles" quest rules. For all quests where such rules were set, the appropriate changes will be made to their enemies.)


Question:
What does "Make Link Drunk" actually mean? Does it make the screen go dizzy so its hard to see? Does it reverse controls? Does it make him lose 1 heart per second?Well, it's a feature that's been commented out since before I arrived. What it does is make the screen wavy and randomly mess with the controls.

Although, maybe I'll add a "reverse controls" status effect as well.

[idontknow]

^Sweet! I've been waiting for a status ailment like that for a very long time! Maybe another ailment where it makes the entire screen, including all combos & sprites, shades of red (or perhaps a pallette of your choice) and Links health starts draining--a POISONed effect!

[Exdeath]

(P.S: Another thing I've done is eliminate the "Rope 2 doesn't flash", "Bubble doesn't flash" and "1.90-style Tribbles" quest rules. For all quests where such rules were set, the appropriate changes will be made to their enemies.)

I don't like this at all. It will make it more difficult for people who want that behavior but don't want to edit enemies. I'm all for adding new features like the enemy editor, but please don't take away features.

[_L_]

Whattaya mean, "people who don't want to edit enemies"? It isn't programming, it's a checkbox labelled "Is Flashing" in the editor. Next you'll be telling me that I shouldn't remove* the "Starts with 999 rupees" quest rule because some people don't want to use the Init Data box.

(At the worst, there will be two-step tutorials for these things!)

*Retaining backwards-compatability, of course!

[DarkFlameWolf]

YAY, now my rope 2's that look like non-flashing rats will NOW FLASH NOW! OMEG, Super radiation exposed rats that flash because I can't do a friggin thing via quest rules that are taken out and we are forced to use the enemy editor to fix things!

[Nimono]

_L_, leave the quest rules IN. You're making everyone angry at you. AGAIN. I could care less about where I have to edit that for the enemies, but please, for the sake of everyone here, LEAVE THE QUEST RULES IN, but also put in those checkboxes. Let me give you an example of what the rules could instead do:

These rules would instead simply auto-check the boxes for the enemies the rule apply to. They could uncheck it at will (So they could have enemies that apply to the rules go against the rules and those that go with them, like having Ropes that flash and those that don't), but if the rule was off, they'd have to MANUALLY check the enemies' checkboxes for the rules.

[The_Amaster]

Geez. It takes all of 10-30 seconds to open an enemies data and check a chck box. You can do ten of them in, like, five minuites.

[Petoe]

It would be nice to get the enemy editor working 100% before taking out any quest rules. *sigh*

[ShadowTiger]

I'm sure there's some sort of logic in _L_'s actions that is inherently difficult for people to see. Very understandable, really, ... I'm having some trouble seeing the rationality behind them myself, but I think I'm at least a little closer than I would've hoped to seeing it.

Okay. While _L_ just said that backwards compatibility would be maintained, (Which I assume would be accomplished through having a checkbox automatically checked in the enemy editor for those select enemies, similar to how some quest rules were automatically checked when you opened up the rules pages.) so you wouldn't have to worry about that, as it'd take the status from your quest in its previous beta / version of ZC and compare it to its status in the enemy editor, and maintain the toggled state between both. So you really wouldn't need these quest rules at all, as you're basically having more control over what the quest rules exhibited, but in a somewhat less IN YOUR FACE way.


Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to fantasize about making a stone golem that moves at half the rate of a darknut but has six times the hit points. <3

I SERIOUSLY wish we could alter knockback though. =/ I mean if you slash your sword through goo, (Zol/Gel) it does not get pushed back. > <.

[Love For Fire]

It really isn't that big of a deal to edit behaviors such as rope 2 flashing in the editor, provied there is a part of the tutorial that explains how it is done. I think getting rid of some of the obsolete quest rules can help cut that page down from 8 pages of rules.

Although Petoe does make a good point as well.

[jman2050]

Personally, I hate the quest rule system so anything that'll force people to stray away from that is okay in my book. I do worry about backwards-compatibility though.

[idontknow]

Instead of having misc. attributes, can we get rid of them altogether & replace them with drop down menus? It'd be almost like the flags--a giant list of drop down properties, perhaps even a couple pages of them.

Take the 'Bubble' property for example. Instead of choosing Bubble type & then putting in a 0, 1, or 2 for temporary, perminent, or remove jinx, there would be the word "Jinx:" followed by a drop-down menu with the following options:
-Temporary Jinx
-Perminent Jinx
-Remove Jinx

Other properties & their available options could be:

Attack Type: a. Normal b. Trail c. Constant d. Triple weapon e. quadruple f. 8-Way g. Stream

Jinx Type: a. None b. Sword c. Item d. Drunk e. Sword & Drunk f. Item & drunk g. Sword & Item h. All

Take Rupees--this would be a box with up to 3 digits in them (so a max of 999) and you put in a number from 0 to 999. If 0, then this enemy takes no rupees--this way, it can take rupees in addition to doing a jinx.

Take Magic--similar to above, you enter in amount of magic & that's how much it takes. Perhaps only ranges from 0 to 9. This way, an enemy can take rupees, magic, & jinx you all at once!

Suicide Attack: a. Split on Damage b. Split on Death c. 8-way weapon upon Death

Enemy Splits Into: This would be followed by a small text field to enter in an enemy I.D. of the enemy to split into (as in tribbles)

Copies: Enter in a number from 1 to 9--this is how many copies of the above enemy this enemy splits into.

I think you get my drift by now--my point is that all these options are feasible with drop down, or text-field menus so that you don't have to memorize what each misc. attribute does.

[ShadowTiger]

Either that, or include some sort of intra-ZQuest documentation for the possible values and translations of these misc entities in case people don't know to check the pinned thread to get those values.

I'm still totally in favor of that rollover help system. :p

[Dark Nation]

How about a compromise...

Take the quest rules out...

but ...

Make a new dialog with buttons (matching those quest rules) that, when clicked, set the appropriate enemy flags on the appropriate enemies. That way, you can set them pretty much as you did before, or edit enemies manually.

Best of both worlds.

Also, I'm betting that if I, jman, or koopa had made the same suggestion (changing some quest rules to something else, which, by the way, has been done before), not as many people would have had a problem with it. It's just that L suggested it, so it must be bad. :rolleyes:

[Brandon]

Well, this topic is the one that really stirred the beehive. Everyone is paranoid now due to it. :)
http://armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=95953

[Radien ZC]

Personally, I hate the quest rule system so anything that'll force people to stray away from that is okay in my book. I do worry about backwards-compatibility though.

I don't want to sound like a bandwagon (fillinblank) here, but jman basically said exactly what I was thinking.

The important issue isn't whether users are required to open up the enemy editor and make a small (and very simple) change. This issue is whether the requirement to do so makes it impossible to play a version 1.92 quest (for example) in the version 2.5 ZC player, without opening it up in ZQuest 2.5 to manually update it.

I don't know TOO much about programming, but it sounds like this conversion could become a big problem unless you specifically address it. So just make sure you address it when you do it, that's all.

Personally, I agree that it isn't unreasonable to ask questmakers to open the enemy editor when they want to edit the friggin' enemies. :P Just so long as it doesn't require them to mess with the confusing "Misc. Attributes" that for the most part can't be used without an attribute reference chart (in their current state, at least).

[The_Amaster]

You know, whats the big deal with backwards compatability. If you want to play1.90 quests, just keep a copy of 1.90 along with 2.5.

[_L_]

Something I didn't realise at all until today: the Ghini 1 uses a completely different movement system to the Ghini 2.

Hence, I can merge the Ghini 1 into the Walker type, and the Ghini 2 into the Floater type (along with Keese, Keese Tribble and Peahat.)

[redmage777]

Is the Floater type going to have most the special attributes of the walker type (Shooting, Jynxs ect?) and Do you have plans to do a Jumper Type as well?

[_L_]

Yeah, pretty much. Take the Walker's misc. atrributes and change misc6 to the following:

misc6: 0 = Keese, 1 = Peahat (invulnerable in flight), 2 = Ghini 2 (same as Keese, but doesn't cast shadows and "fades in" when created)

Also, the "Ghini 2 Flickers" and "Ghini 2 is Translucent" rules are departing as well - and in their wake comes two enemy flags which allow any enemy to be flickering and/or translucent.

Doublealso: if I can, I'm going to merge the Like Like with the Walkers as well. Engulfing will be another Status Effect. And yes, before you ask, a Rupee Like effect will also be possible.

Triplealso: The "Rate", "Halt Rate", "Homing" and "Step" variables are now used by the Floaters. Here's what they do:

* Rate: How often it changes direction in flight... I think. 2 for Keese, 4 for Peahats.
* Halt Rate: How long, in frames, it rests on the ground. 0 for Bats.
* Step: 5 for Keese, 8 for Bats. Influences flight speed.
* Homing: The comments call this variable "graduality". The smaller it is, the faster the floater accelerates and decelerates. 0 for Bats, 16 for Keese.

[Brandon]

If you are going to do this, it's best to make it as error free as possible.
Such as making the boxes dropdown instead of typed in. Also have what the misc attribute does next to the number. Right now it is confusing and I hope you at least consider this.

[Radien ZC]

I like the additions and changes being made. Like I usually say, though... "as long as they are stable..."


You know, whats the big deal with backwards compatability. If you want to play1.90 quests, just keep a copy of 1.90 along with 2.5.
As far as the ZC player goes, it'd mostly be a big deal for the casual gamers who download ZC just to play quests. Questmakers are more willing to download and install multiple versions of ZC, for various reasons. Casual players want one version to handle all .QST files.

And I certainly hope you didn't mean to refer to ZQuest, because not being able to open older quests in ZQuest would quite piss off some questmakers... And yes, I know a handful who have quests in 1.90 because they think it's more stable.

But I dunno... the best answer is because that's what Zelda Classic does. That's what makes it "Classic."

[idontknow]

Wow! This is gonna be awesome now! Think of the possibilities...

01. Fire Peahats: Peahats that shoot fireballs at Link
02. Poison Keese: Keese that make Link "drunk" when they hit him
03. Rupee Like Like: Like Likes that steal Rupees from Link
04. Magic Like Like: Like Likes that steal Magic from Link
05. Super Bubble: A bubble that perminently disables both the sword & b-item.
06. Fire Ghinis: Ghinis that breathe fire.
07. Shielded Peahats: Peahats that are invulnerable from the sides so they must be hit from the front or back and they have strong HP and Damage.
08. Super Goriyas: Goriyas that throw extremely harmful boomerangs and throw them rather often and walk really fast.
09. Super Zol: A Zol that not only "poisons" Link (drunken effect as described by _L_) when he touches it, but also splits into 8 gels when defeated.
10. Bombdo: A gibdo-like enemy that shoots bombs at Link and also explodes when defeated.

[_L_]

I'm fairly certain that all of those will be possible. As for whether they ought to be made...

[Radien ZC]

Heh, I ditto that.

The enemy editor, like everything in life, is best when used in moderation.

[redmage777]

Doublealso: if I can, I'm going to merge the Like Like with the Walkers as well. Engulfing will be another Status Effect.

Would wall masters be considered an engulfing enemy? If so could draging Link off be set up as an engulfing option? (All I need now is the "Rope Charge" to be made into an enemy flag and I'll be happy, and promise to tell everybody what genius you are next time they start bashing you like a piniata.)

[_L_]

Latest news: I'm going to make the Walker's misc9 confer special movement patterns. 1 = Rope charge, 2 = Vire hop, 3 = Pols Voice leap. Thing is, some these movement patterns will require some internal tinkering to make them compatable with halting_walk...

Also: Tektites are crazy, and will probably remain as their own enemy type. Maybe Wallmasters also.

[ShadowTiger]

As would be expected. ^^. Perhaps alter the height of the Tektite's jump, but in the form of a "Minimum" jump and a "Maximum" jump? ... ... Then there could be a randomness factor to set the randomness of alteration between the two, in that a 0 would be an exact one to one alternation, and a 10 would be a completely random and unknown pattern of jumping from anywhere between minimum and maximum jump height.


This may mean that my dreams of a randomly jumping Coffee Darknut can finally come true!!!1!!1161

[CJC]

As would be expected. ^^. Perhaps alter the height of the Tektite's jump, but in the form of a "Minimum" jump and a "Maximum" jump? ... ... Then there could be a randomness factor to set the randomness of alteration between the two, in that a 0 would be an exact one to one alternation, and a 10 would be a completely random and unknown pattern of jumping from anywhere between minimum and maximum jump height.


This may mean that my dreams of a randomly jumping Coffee Darknut can finally come true!!!1!!1161


Remind me never to play one of your quests.

...Oh, and his eyes should be really big and bloodshot. Like he hasn't slept for days.



Other Custom Monster Ideas (For the cruel at heart):
A gleeok that spits out bombs. Even worse, make it a gleeok2.
A Ghoma that shoots a constant stream of enemy magic when it's eye is open (Possible?)
Octorok on Crack + Blue Wizrobe Movement + Invulnerable to Sword = Doom?
A zol that 'tribbles' into two Deathknights

And many more evil ways to torture your player. For more information, contact your local malicious advisor :sly: .

[Love For Fire]

Heh... instead of making just more cruel enemies, I'm also going to make some enemies easier; such as making the Death Knight weaker so you can actually use him in a quest without a red/gold ring. The Mirror Wizzrobe's attack power shouldn't be as high unless you have a red ring. It's really cool that we can do things like this now.

[Nimono]

Plus, you can also make enemies like they'd be in LADX and the Oracles. Remember, in those games, the defense increases were optional, and even then, it only halved damage. LA didn't have the Blue Tunic, though.

Speaking of LADX, using the Enemy Editor, I'm going to seriously tone down on the enemies. All enemies will stay, but they'll be weaking, like they are in the Oracles games. Anyone know a link to a website that tells how much HP and stuff each enemy has?

[The_Amaster]

I'm using it to totally mess up the boss system. This way I can make tough Ghoma's for later on, or maybe a weaker Gleeok in the beginning.
*Sigh* Now all we need are custom enemies that can be bigger than one square.

[_L_]

Other Custom Monster Ideas (For the cruel at heart):
A gleeok that spits out bombs. Even worse, make it a gleeok2.
A Ghoma that shoots a constant stream of enemy magic when it's eye is open (Possible?)

I haven't reached the bosses yet, but rest assured that such a degree of weapon customisation will be possible.

Also: I'm at a bit of a quandry regarding equipment-eating Like Likes. As I have it now, if you set a Walker's misc7 to 8, and its misc8 to an item class (see the IC_* values in std.zh), then it will eat any and all items in that class that Link has. The only items assumed to be inedible are Mirror Shields and Small Shields (unless the "Like Like eats small shield" rule is set.
Do you think maybe I should instead, I dunno, add an "edibility" checkbox to the Item Editor?

[Dlbrooks33]

Plus, you can also make enemies like they'd be in LADX and the Oracles. Remember, in those games, the defense increases were optional, and even then, it only halved damage. LA didn't have the Blue Tunic, though.

Speaking of LADX, using the Enemy Editor, I'm going to seriously tone down on the enemies. All enemies will stay, but they'll be weaking, like they are in the Oracles games. Anyone know a link to a website that tells how much HP and stuff each enemy has?

LA had the blue tunic and the red tunic. You had to choose at the end of the color dungeon. OoA/S didn't have those tunics at all, but they had rings, a Red Ring for x2 STR and a blue ring for x2 DEF.

[CJC]

I haven't reached the bosses yet, but rest assured that such a degree of weapon customisation will be possible.

Also: I'm at a bit of a quandry regarding equipment-eating Like Likes. As I have it now, if you set a Walker's misc7 to 8, and its misc8 to an item class (see the IC_* values in std.zh), then it will eat any and all items in that class that Link has. The only items assumed to be inedible are Mirror Shields and Small Shields (unless the "Like Like eats small shield" rule is set.
Do you think maybe I should instead, I dunno, add an "edibility" checkbox to the Item Editor?

Well, which would be easier? Setting a checkbox in the item editor or specifying which levels of the item class the Like Like could eat.


...Actually, nevermind. The checkbox is easier. Add 'edible' checkboxes and remove the quest rules regarding Like-Like's shield treatment.
Of course... this would need another 'redirect' code to maintain reverse compatibility, so whether or not you want to do it is entirely up to you.

[Nimono]

LA had the blue tunic and the red tunic. You had to choose at the end of the color dungeon. OoA/S didn't have those tunics at all, but they had rings, a Red Ring for x2 STR and a blue ring for x2 DEF.

I know that. The Tunics and Rings are two different items, thus the "they are optional".

_L_, make checkboxes for eatability. Some of us would like to have Like Likes eat Mirror Shields, too.

On that note, think you could make a single Item for shops that would be a Small Shield if you no shield or a Small Shield, but turn into a higher-level Shield if you collected the appropriate Shield? Think the shields you could buy in OoA/OoS....

[Dlbrooks33]

you can already do that. Go to init data and uncheck the small shield. Then make a shop and put in a small shield for 20 rupees like in the games. You now have yuor buyable small shield.

[shadowfall1976]

that's not what he's talking about

he means the shop sells the small shield if you don't have a shield
or have the small shield

if you find the Magic Shield the shop no longer sells the small shield
but carries the shield you currently have. and then on.

but then you would have to have shops that resell the other shields
so that for example if a Like Like eats your Mirror Shield, you would
need somewhere to reclaim it, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense,
then you would have lost your shield, thus making the shop revert back
selling only the small shield. making you screwed...

[Nimono]

that's not what he's talking about

he means the shop sells the small shield if you don't have a shield
or have the small shield

if you find the Magic Shield the shop no longer sells the small shield
but carries the shield you currently have. and then on.

but then you would have to have shops that resell the other shields
so that for example if a Like Like eats your Mirror Shield, you would
need somewhere to reclaim it, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense,
then you would have lost your shield, thus making the shop revert back
selling only the small shield. making you screwed...

It's not supposed to revert back to Small Shield. Once you get the Magic/Mirror Shields, the Shield item is permanently stuck to selling THEM. Not the Small Shield, not the shield of a lower level, but the last Shield you had (Or the Small Shield, if you never got a shield). But I guess I'm rambling.

Edit: Oopsy. Didn't mean to post it all.... XD

[redmage777]

Come to Think about it, perhaps a "Class Restore" Item level, Set the Item Level to "0" and it will always be the most current level of the Item. This way it could be applied to any Item you care to let the Like-Like eat. This would also work if you want the Red Potion to Replace all the the Blue ones once it is obtained. Another Idea could be a "Last item lost" item, this would go well in the Like-Like's Drop List if you want to make it possable for Link to get Items back if he kills the Like-like.

It is very likly that these can be accompleshed via Scripting, but I figued I would throw it out there anyway.

Oh, one more thing, Since we have Tribble Enemies, can we have "Cling on" (Pun Intended) Enemies as well? It doesen't seem that enemies that cling to Link and slow him down would be much different the the enveloping ones.

[shadowfall1976]

well ok then sheez............ :eyebrow:

no, but I knew where you were going, man... I was actually trying to infer
to someone else what you meant... and all I get for it is.......:)

[_L_]

Oh, one more thing, Since we have Tribble Enemies, can we have "Cling on" (Pun Intended) Enemies as well? It doesen't seem that enemies that cling to Link and slow him down would be much different the the enveloping ones.
Good idea...

As for shops, well... once signpost combos and "give item" control codes are mastered, you can make entirely custom shops using just those. Once there, you can use room state carryovers to modify that custom shop's contents dynamically based on Link's progress...



EDIT: I'm extremely thankful for the existence of the S-tiles. Currently they do nothing. But henceforth, their application shall be thus:

* For Walkers with Shield flags set, the S-tiles will be used for their broken shield sprites. (Remember, only Walkers have breakable shields.)
* For Patras, the S-tiles will be those used for the outer eyes.

[Dark Nation]

Um, the S tiles ARE already used (or, at least, I designed them to be). The 2 examples you gave should already be in use, as well as Zoras (for the submerging/surfacing tiles) and the Gleeoks (for the neck and head tiles).

And how about this idea for shops (maybe for ZC 2.6 or something)... Add a new variable to each item. Call it "Next Shop". Basically, when you buy that item, the shop number for that room is permanently changed to the shop number listed in that variable. By default (and for old quests), this number would be set to the current shop number.

Examples:
A shop from an old quest (this is the actual shop data of shop 0 from 1st.qst) would be converted to this:

Shop 0
Item Price Next
Magic Shield 160 0
Normal Key 100 0
Candle 60 0
or possibly this (the -1 means "whatever the current shop number is"):

Shop 0
Item Price Next
Magic Shield 160 - 1
Normal Key 100 - 1
Candle 60 - 1

Suppose you wanted a shop that sold a Blue Ring, then sold a Red Ring once you bought the Blue Ring, then sells out of rings completely:

Shop 3
Item Price Next
Normal Key 80 - 1
Blue Ring 255 4
Bait 60 - 1

Shop 4
Item Price Next
Red Ring 999 5
Normal Key 80 - 1
Bait 60 - 1

Shop 5
Item Price Next
Normal Key 80 - 1
Bait 60 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Notice that the items don't always have to appear in the same places. Also, note that the shop is dependent on if you buy the item from that shop, not just if you happen to already own it.

Or, suppose you wanted to recreate the bean seller from Ocarina of Time (but with Keys, since ZC doesn't have beans):

Shop 2
Item Price Next
Normal Key 10 3
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 3
Item Price Next
Normal Key 20 4
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 4
Item Price Next
Normal Key 30 5
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 5
Item Price Next
Normal Key 40 6
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 6
Item Price Next
Normal Key 50 7
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 7
Item Price Next
Normal Key 60 8
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 8
Item Price Next
Normal Key 70 9
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 9
Item Price Next
Normal Key 80 10
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 10
Item Price Next
Normal Key 90 11
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 11
Item Price Next
Normal Key 100 12
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 12
Item Price Next
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1


Or, you want a shop that sells Magic Shields at a discount if you ever bought one from them before:

Shop 0
Item Price Next
Magic Shield 160 1
Normal Key 100 - 1
Candle 60 - 1

Shop 1
Item Price Next
Magic Shield 20 - 1
Normal Key 100 - 1
Candle 60 - 1


Finally, a shop that sells Shields and Rings and upgrades to the next level of item if you purchase one:

Shop 0
Item Price Next
Magic Shield 160 1
Blue Ring 255 2
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 1
Item Price Next
Mirror Shield 780 3
Blue Ring 255 4
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 2
Item Price Next
Magic Shield 160 4
Red Ring 999 5
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 3
Item Price Next
Blue Ring 255 6
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 4
Item Price Next
Mirror Shield 780 6
Red Ring 999 7
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 5
Item Price Next
Magic Shield 160 7
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 6
Item Price Next
Red Ring 999 8
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 7
Item Price Next
Mirror Shield 780 8
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1

Shop 8
Item Price Next
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1
(None) 0 - 1


Yes, we would definitely increase the number of shops from 15 to something like 255 or even 65535. Thoughts?

[idontknow]

AMAZING IDEA! (refers DN"s to previous post about Shops)

[Nicholas Steel]

in your last example DN does it downgrade the item in the shop if for instance... your magic shield gets eaten?

[Dark Nation]

No. It's based on what you buy, not what you have. If you set it to sell a blue potion, then a red potion the next time, it doesn't matter if you use up the blue potion before you return or not.

[_L_]

Um, the S tiles ARE already used (or, at least, I designed them to be). Then why does "grep s_tile guys.cpp" return only one line?

(Not when I'm done with it, it won't.)

Also, I find the "Next" shops to be somewhat seductive...

[Dark Nation]

Perhaps, 'designed' is the wrong word. 'Intended'. Yeah. I 'intended' them to be used for just that purpose. :D

Also, if we had room scripts (that ran once just after the room is loaded into memory), you could do this exact same thing through scripting, without sacrificing so many shops. And, you could have custom shop text, too. ("So, back again?" "We just got a new item in stock! Check it out!" "Sorry, we're all out of medicine right now." etc.)

[_L_]

Hence "currently it does nothing". Also, I'll use it for Zoras, Leevers and Gleeoks as well.

Progress list: currently I've merged Walker and Shooter, Ghini, Gel (Tribble), Zol (Tribble), Vire (Tribble), Rope, Goriya, Bubble and Like-Like into the Walking Enemy type, and merged Peahat, Ghini 2 and Keese (Tribble) into the Floating Enemy type.

That leaves the following re-jiggerings and/or jiggerings:

* Getting Floating Enemies to fire projectiles
* Pols Voice (to merge with Walking Enemy)
* Blue Leever (to merge with Walking Enemy?)
* Armos (to merge with Walking Enemy)
* Tektite
* Red Wizzrobe (to merge with Teleporting Enemy)
* Red Leever (to merge with Teleporting Enemy)
* Zora (to merge with Teleporting Enemy)
* Wall Master
* Blue Wizzrobe
* Trap (Thinks: another Misc. Attribute could do away with the Multi-Directional Traps, Mean Placed Traps and Floating Traps rules.)
* Aquamentus (Thinks: Implement BS-Aquamentus?)
* Moldorm (Thinks: Implement Z3 Moldorm, whatever that is? I presume it's where only the tailmost segment can be damaged.)
* Dodongo (Thinks: Maybe even implement Fire Dodongo? Just add a halt rate and...)
* Manhandla
* Gleeok
* Digdogger
* Gohma
* Patra
* Lanmola

[Nimono]

Wow...

That shop idea is weird, though. Nothing like what I had in mind....

_L_, I'm also not sure exactly what the Z3 Moldorm is, but it's probably NOT the boss Moldorm. If you remember, in LttP, Moldorms bounced away if they tried to move into an area that they couldn't walk on normally (like pits and solid objects), and the moved in an almost circular motion. Z1 Moldorms don't do that. They just.... move. They also don't get knocked back when you hit them, like Z3 Moldorms, which are also a bit smaller. So I believe the Z3 Moldorm is not the Boss Moldorm, but instead is the smaller Enemy Moldorm. Though, the Boss Moldorm would be nice to have, if possible...

Say, when are we going to get the combo editor? And is there a plan to allow us to attach scripts to enemies?

[Dark Nation]

Wait, I remember now. I implemented it for use with the tile editor (for tile overwrite protection). With the protection turned on (in the options menu), try to paste something in the tile used by a Gleeok's head, or the surfacing/submerging tiles used by the zoras and leevers. And yes, the Z3 Moldorm is the smaller version that bounces around in arcs/circles.

[redmage777]

* Dodongo (Thinks: Maybe even implement Fire Dodongo? Just add a halt rate and...)

Please Do, Otherwise, Dodongo is more or less static, Bosses need to have the absolute highest degree of customability. The days of "Fought one Fought them all" could very well be coming to an end.

[AmazingAmpharos]

About the Next Shop, would it work for individual locations or for all shops of that type? For instance, if you have two places with that example Magic Shield discount and bought a Magic Shield from one of them, would it become cheaper in the duplicate shop as well? That is, would the next procedure be activated as a part of the shop data or the screen data?

Zelda3 Moldorm's biggest feature is his continually decreasing size along his length. His head is his biggest segment, and then each segment is progressively smaller. His head and tail look different from his body segments as well. The bouncing off the walls is a part of the movement procedure, probably the biggest difference. It should be noted that adding just that lets you have the generic enemy Moldorm, but making him only be able to be damaged in the tail, putting in the unique animation whenever he got hit(where he curls up inside of his head and is immune to damage until he starts moving again), causing him to about double in movement speed when he's down to one hit remaining, and causing a bounceback upon striking the head with a melee attack would cause the boss Moldorm to exist as well, though pit type warps would be needed to actually simulate the original battle conditions. It might be a bit much to add, but that's about what Z3 Moldorm would be.

For reference:

Boss Moldorm:

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda03/BossGuide/Moldorm.PNG

Generic Moldorm:

http://www.nintendoclub.it/enciclopedia/zelda/alttp/img/al53.jpg

[Dark Nation]

It changes what shop number a screen uses. So, if 2 screens use shop 3 and you buy a shield at one that changes it to shop 4, the other room will still use shop 3 until/unless you buy a shield there.

[punkonjunk1024]

Personally, I hate the quest rule system so anything that'll force people to stray away from that is okay in my book.

Quoted for truth.

I haven't been involved in the ZC scene in a few months, and I have no fricking idea who _L_ is, but it seems to me like he's really doing a lot for one of the features we've all been drooling about since 1.84 - an enemy editor. So he takes out the quest rules relating to enemy status? Well, it doesn't make sense to have them in there. Think about if you were just picking up this game, and editor. For some reason, rope2's flashing or whatever can't be changed in the enemy editor, and after hours of searching, you find it in... quest rules? That would piss me off.

[Grayswandir]

It changes what shop number a screen uses. So, if 2 screens use shop 3 and you buy a shield at one that changes it to shop 4, the other room will still use shop 3 until/unless you buy a shield there.

Personally, I'd rather have it attached to the shop type and not the specific rooms. I think that that would be a lot more versatile. Maybe you could have a quest rule, or (Since you all don't like quest rules) when choosing room type have a Shop: Generic choice and a Shop: Specific, where all of the generic types would affect each other, but the specific keeps track of its own status.

[Nicholas Steel]

when did re-jiggering enemies appear here? hmmm?

http://www.armageddongames.net/forums/showthread.php?t=95877

[_L_]

Well, I'm technically counting this as a "fix", based on my belief that the previous system was far more limited than it ought to have been. Also, the person who was originally going to do it has retired.

[Nicholas Steel]

fair enough :)

[_L_]

As you know, there are two types of fireballs - ones that are blocked by the Magic Shield, and ones that aren't. So, I'm adding a "Fireball 2" enemy weapon, so the latter can be used by any enemy. I might also add a quest rule allowing people to give a different sprite to Fireball 2's, for visual differentiation!

[Dark Nation]

A long time ago, there was talk of making/segregating 4 different types of fireballs.

Weak. Any shield will block it. Mirror Shield will reflect (thought there was the idea to let the Magic Shield reflect it, too). No current enemies use this.
Average. Magic Shield will block. Mirror Shield will reflect. Zoras, for instance, use this.
Strong. Mirror Shield will block. I don't think any current enemies have this kind.
Very Strong. Nothing blocks. Ganon, for instance, uses this.

[_L_]

Well, after some detours I've got BS-Aquamentus's five-fireball arc working, in both orientations. It can now be attached to any Walker by setting its weapon to Fireball (2) and its misc1 to 5. Now, how are those Floater shooters doing...

[redmage777]

Cool... Glad to hear you've been working on the Aquamentis fire paterns. Is he still going to shoot non-fire ball projectiles in 3 directions? or do you plan on adding a way for him to shoot other projectiles in a 3/5 spread? As it is the Aquamentis seems a little TOO wimp when he shoots magic or swords like a stalfos 3 would.

[_L_]

I'll see what I can do with regard to the 3/5 spread.

Incidentally: my custom enemy changes aren't going into the builds until they're all done. So, your quest's custom enemies aren't going to be erased yet.

[Majora]

Are enemies bigger 1x1 in the works? (or, WILL they be?)

[_L_]

Okay, here's how the Floater's shooting will be set up:
misc1: 0 = normal (fires while flying). 1 = fires while resting. 2 = rapid firing. 7 = stream (Fire Gleeok head). Other values have identical functions as Walker's misc1.
Something that'll be annoying, though, is the firing animation...

2x2 enemies? Uh, not at the moment.

[CastChaos]

Will the enemy attibutes' name remain "misc1", "misc2", etc. or they will get some meaningful name, like "fireball type", "fireball speed", etc.?

Also, now can we make a 2X2 enemy if we choose an enemy's type "aquamentus" or such? So, if we edit an already 2X2 enemy, then it remains 2X2, not?

[_L_]

Hmmm... looking more closely at the behaviour of Red Leever, Zora and Red Wizzrobe, it seems that they contain enough subtle differences such that they ought to remain as separate enemy types.

On the upside, today I decided to have some fun by seeing if, by adding a few extra lines, I could implement the Jumping Stalfos of post-1992 fame. The results of this experiment will be available as another misc9 option.

Also, in response to your first question, the default labels for the Misc. Attributes will read thus:
"Firing Pattern"
"Death Pattern"
"D. Pattern Attr. 1"
"D. Pattern Attr. 2" (usually the number of enemies to split into)
"Grow Into Enemy"
"F. Pattern Attribute" (used by Lynels)
"Touch Effect"
"T. Effect Attribute"
"Movement Pattern"
"Special CSet" (used by Blue Leevers)

[Love For Fire]

Concerning the enemy editor... as long as it's not a problem, can we allow enemies to do 1/4 heart damage?

[The_Amaster]

I'd still like the option for custom enemies of any size.
....

....
And of course custom item classes....

[CastChaos]

Will there ever be something like... ENEMY SCRIPTS?


import "std.zh"

enemy script trinexx

void run(trinexx head, trinexx ice, trinexx flame)
{
//here comes the behaviour of the main head plus tiles, CSet
//here comes the behaviour of the ice head plus tiles, CSet
//here comes the behaviour of the flame head plus tiles, CSet
}
WHEN (trinexx ice hp = 0, trinexx flame hp = 0)
{
//here comes the behaviour of the naked trinexx plus tiles, CSet
}


You could say that the enemies are already customizable enough, only items need scripts, but i'd like to see how you make a Trinexx or LttP style Like Like or such... without a horde of tricks, of course.

[_L_]

For Zoras: misc6 will be the Combo Type ID (see the CT numbers in std.zh) on which it can appear (default is 3, water). This will allow easy creation of Sand Zoras and other things.

Some Misc9 options will allow Zoras to move around a bit when surfaced.

Also, I'm going to make a new flag, "Doesn't need to be defeated", which makes the Enemies->Secret and other screen flags ignore that enemy (as Zoras and Bubbles currently are.)

[beefster09]

Sweet! We can make moles now!
Enemy scripts would be useful for just movement patterns, but any more complicated would be too much for now.

[ChocoHearts]

Sweet! We can make moles now!
Enemy scripts would be useful for just movement patterns, but any more complicated would be too much for now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/ChocoHearts/050_Diglett.png

Seriously.

[_L_]

Also, I've added homing movement for floaters (Homing Rate now does something) and an option for diagonal movement for walkers.

I suppose I could implement an approximation of the Z3 Guards' movement by making their homing rate and speed double if Link is in their line of sight...

[CastChaos]

This sounds so, so awesome!
When making a big quest you encounter the problem of too few kind of enemies, but with this all maybe even some LttP bosses will be very possible!

Will there ever be "enemy carry overs"? Enemies whiches follow you through screens unless you get 2 screens distance away? Not like it couldn't be faked right now, just curious...

Now I miss only one thing: can a "bounce" be added? Like in LttP, where the Tower of Hera boss (Big Moldorm) bounced Link away when Link touched it's head or when Link attacked with a sword/hammer.

[ShadowTiger]

Yeah, I'm amazed there's no knockback customization feature yet. Enemies don't really push Link when they harm him. Bullets don't make people fly backwards when they strike, and swords tend to slash skin and draw blood when they slash.

Of course, how often is it that a Darknut just walks around the room randomly in real life? :p

[The_Amaster]

I still think that custom bosses are going to be really difficult without cusotm enemy sizes. As for bouncing, well, that should be a pretty simple/moderate change to the tekite system. Actually, wait, what if you could modify the wait time between jumps for tekite behavior, thus if you wanted, you could set it to 0, and have it bounce. Throw in some kind of "Follows Link" flag, and voila.

[CastChaos]

I still think that custom bosses are going to be really difficult without cusotm enemy sizes. As for bouncing, well, that should be a pretty simple/moderate change to the tekite system. Actually, wait, what if you could modify the wait time between jumps for tekite behavior, thus if you wanted, you could set it to 0, and have it bounce. Throw in some kind of "Follows Link" flag, and voila.

I didn't mean that the enemy bounces around the screen, I meant that when Link hits the enemy, Link gets bounced back and the enemy shivers for half a second. Like the Big Moldorm and those "living switch"-like things in LttP.

[The_Amaster]

Ohhh...ok. Yeah, that's a recoil/knock back thing.

[_L_]

Hrmmm... the problem with the Bat 'robe is that I need a misc slot in which to put the ID of the enemy it summons, and the quantity of enemies it summons. I'll do this by overloading misc3 and misc4. So, Bat 'robes with the splitting attribute will have to split into their summonlings when hit.

[The_Amaster]

That doesn't make any game sense, as in "Hey, that summoner just split into his minions. WTF", but I can see a lot of creative ways to use it. BTW L, how's those string editor things comin along. Haven't heard on thsoe in a while.

[_L_]

Well, I'm thinking of making a Quest Rule that adds an extra fourth row of text to the dialog boxes (and resizes the box appropriately)...

Oh, yeah, and I have to fix the Ending Text bug.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Well, I'm thinking of making a Quest Rule that adds an extra fourth row of text to the dialog boxes (and resizes the box appropriately)...

Oh, yeah, and I have to fix the Ending Text bug.

How many bugs would this new feature introduce?

[_L_]

Ideally, zero!

(I can't imagine very many places in the code that assume three rows of message text...)

The idea for this came about because, in implementing the control code system, I doubled the capacity of strings (to make room for the codes.) Then I thought, well, if you aren't using too many multi-argument codes, you might as well make use of that capacity for display purposes...

Also, the Mirror 'robe's invulnerability is now captured in an enemy flag called "Not Invincible to Reflected Magic/Beams."

[_L_]

Okay! After days of deliberation, I've had to conclude that the Pols Voice's movement algorithm is completely irreconcilable with standard Walker movement, so it'll have to be a separate enemy type.

[AmazingAmpharos]

Hmm, you've been willing to divulge what's going to be customizable on regular enemies so I was wondering about bosses. What will we be able to change on them? Will they get as much flexibility as regular enemies(I.E. making boss type enemies into splitters and letting former non-projectile enemies like Moldorm fire them), or are they complex to the point of needing to be fairly restricted? On especial note, are spawn locations something a player might be able to mess around with? I know you're probably not onto bosses yet, but I was rather curious about your intent with them.

Also, how much of Ganon is stuck as just being a part of Ganon? There's the special scene when you enter the room, the way he becomes weak to a weapon he used to be invulnurable to after taking so much damage, and the way he has a special death animation and leaves behind an item after dying. It would be pretty neat if those became general possibilities. Being able to remove the first one makes the Ganon type enemy a lot more flexible(like being able to use it to be something other than the final boss), and being able to play with the last one would just be incredibly cool(it would make bosses dropping heart containers be a lot more exciting). Of course, there's still the concern that the only way to get a Ganon type enemy to appear currently is to use the Ganon room which means that only one Ganon type enemy can exist per quest, and you can't have the player fight multiple Ganons at once(on that note, how much of the stuff that happens during the Ganon boss fight is a part of Ganon and how much is a part of his room?).

I must say that all status reports indicate that this new editor is going to be pretty awesome when it's completed. Being able to edit enemies to this extent should allow for some very interesting quests to say the least.

[_L_]

Well, I'm trying to give projectiles to as many creatures as possible. There's a bit of a difficulty, though: if a Moldorm has sword beams as a weapon, does it shoot the sword in the direction its head is facing, or "toward" Link?
Also, in what direction should a Tektite breathe fire?

(A slightly bigger difficulty is boomerangs - the current boomerang code assumes that the enemy using the boomerang remains still while the boomerang is flying. My current plan is just outright preventing non-Walker enemies from using them...)

As for Ganon: If Ganon is editable (which he is), then he can also be selected in a room's Enemies list. So, you don't need the Ganon room to create him. Thus, the Ganon entry cutscene will only be present for the Ganon room type.

Giving Ganon's disintegration animation to bosses? Now that's an idea I can get behind. Thanks!
(But couldn't the Heart Container be attached to bosses using "Enemy carries item"?)

[Tygore]

I like the idea of other bosses having a Ganon-style death, with the flashy lights and the item resting in the ash.

Overall, I do realize that Bosses are rather unique- the LoZ developers didn't exactly have us in mind when they designed them. Some degree of manipulability would be nice, but isn't an immediate necessity. It's better to take it slowly, one step at a time, and get things down right.

[redmage777]

Even If the loz bosses can't be flexable, New enemy types that are intended as bosses could be a viable solution. I don't think that itwill be a big problem so much as _L_ hasn't gotten around to doing them yet.

[AmazingAmpharos]

Hmm, Moldorm could be really evil and fire a sword beam toward Link out of every segment... When I mentioned Moldorm, I was honestly more thinking of fireballs, but that is a bit of a conundrum. I'd think Moldorm would be toward Link which would leave Lanmolas firing out of the head, establishing another big difference between them, but that's just how I'd do it. Moldorm would certainly be improved either way; he's not a very imposing enemy currently no matter how you look at it.

I thought of the possibility of having a boss carry the item with enemies carry item, but that has a few problems. The biggest one is that bumping into the boss would grant you the heart container, and the only way to prevent that is to use a quest rule which removes neat possibilities like having Bubbles carry keys and such and generally makes generic enemies carrying items a whole lot less notable. There's also the problem that Digdogger will drop the item if you just kill the right kid without finishing him completely, though I suppose the problem of Digdogger doesn't really go away no matter how you do it(unless it were possible to just have the last kid explode like that or if you just used a 1 kid Digdogger and gave the kid that property).

[_L_]

I'm contemplating taking the "Tribble-up" effect (where, after some frames an enemy becomes another, often stronger enemy) and tying it to a misc2 effect, for extra versatility. For example, you could specify how many frames would elapse before it would transform, and maybe also allow it to transform into more than one enemy.

This comes at a price, though: as a misc2 effect, it would be mutually exclusive with the "splitting" effect. But, I think it makes more sense this way.

[Dark Nation]

It wouldn't have to be mutually exclusive. Imagine an enemy that, every 5 seconds, changes into a harder enemy. So, you have a time limit to kill it before it gets too strong to fight.

Or, an enemy that keeps regenerating its hit points every so often (keeps changing into a new version of itself).

[DarkFlameWolf]

and my question is, how far back would this set a stable ZC?

[_L_]

It wouldn't have to be mutually exclusive.It would be mutually exclusive with the splitting effect, though. You couldn't make a splitting Zol that grows into a stronger splitting Zol. Fortunately, no such enemies exist in ZC 2.11.

Also, such a change is really just a few lines of code here and there. Nothing major.

Doublealso: to unite Armos with Walker, I'm making it so that the "Spawned by Armos combo" flag also makes the enemy "flicker in" like an Armos or phantom Ghini does.

[The_Amaster]

Me likey, me likey. And hey, heres a question. If the flickering thing is an actual trait, is there a possibility of an enemy flag "Flickers"? How about "Transparent"?

[_L_]

But of course!
Also, the "Ghini 2 Flickers" and "Ghini 2 is Translucent" rules are departing as well - and in their wake comes two enemy flags which allow any enemy to be flickering and/or translucent.

More Armos news: I was originally planning on splitting up the Armos into two enemies: Armos (slow) and Armos (fast). By altering the Armos combo type's enemy spawn code, I'm able to make it generate either of those enemies, chosen at random. However, what I didn't count on was the possibility of older quests generating Armos from a room's Enemy List, where the random selection of slow and fast Armos should also be present.

So, I think I'll make another enemy flag. I think I'll call it something like "Randomly replaced with other Armos enemies". An offshoot of this flag's addition is that it allows the neophyte quest-builder a small degree of randomnity in enemy generation, outside of scripts.

[4matsy]

An offshoot of this flag's addition is that it allows the neophyte quest-builder a small degree of randomnity in enemy generation, outside of scripts.
...It's not just another enemy flag.

It's got RANDOMNITY.

[_L_]

From the same Internet that brought you "vodcast" and "polymascotfoamalate" comes... "randomnity".

Okay, here's how it's finally implemented: it's now called "Randomly Substituted At Screen Init" and when a screen's enemies are created, those with this flag are randomly replaced with another type of enemy that also has this flag. If only one enemy out of all enemies has this flag, nothing happens.

EDIT: Hmm, here's a quick and harmless idea: two flags called "Damage increases speed" and "Damage increases homing." I'll add them now.

[_L_]

I've been wondering when the Pols Voice should use its weapon, considering that the enemy can appear in both Sideview and Topdown. I've just realised the most obvious solution: a Pols Voice will shoot whenever its Z (sideview: Y) is about the same as Link's.

Also: Traps that shoot projectiles = the cannons from Zelda 3?

[CastChaos]

Genial idea with those Z3 cannons!
I was fearing that I need to ask it in a script format.

Also, remember the gargoyles in Z3? Those little chipmunks whiches would turn into stone upon hitting them and then turn back into their original form? Could that "gargoyle ability" be also an option?

Also, will it be possible to bounce enemies into holes and deep water?

I'm crazy about new enemy additions.

[_L_]

If I'm implementing drowning, I'd better be implementing drowning enemies to boot.

Also: enemy flag "Shields are Mirrored" is coded. With this, you can make those Mirror Shield Darknuts that everyone's been asking for.

[CastChaos]

This enemy editor will be better than I ever imagined!

I'd like only a tiny few more things into it...
1.Enemies which bounce Link back when he hits them. (LttP switch monsters and Giant Moldorm)
2.Enemies electroshock Link. (LttP Agahnim, electromedusas and greenies)

I think I would be quiet after these added.

[ShadowTiger]

If I'm implementing drowning, I'd better be implementing drowning enemies to boot.Some should be able to drown in Shallow water too. (Or at least dissipate. Gels, for example. Suppose they had contact with a pool of water, and their gelatinous substance broke down for some reason. This may not be true for (the already fictional.) the Gel's consistancy, but this is something to be left for the individual quest designer's imagination, rather than them having to be limited to the Gel as we all know it.


Also: enemy flag "Shields are Mirrored" is coded. With this, you can make those Mirror Shield Darknuts that everyone's been asking for.What will these be mirroring, exactly? Sword Beams? Magic Beams? Fireballs? (Yours or the enemies'? Both, perhaps?)

[Dark Nation]

It would be mutually exclusive with the splitting effect, though. You couldn't make a splitting Zol that grows into a stronger splitting Zol. Fortunately, no such enemies exist in ZC 2.11.

Why not? Zel Tribbles grow into stronger Zol Tribbles after a few seconds.

[_L_]

What's a "Zel Tribble"?

Anyway, my point stands: Gel Tribbles cannot split into enemies, and Zol Tribbles cannot grow into a stronger enemy.


What will these be mirroring, exactly? Sword Beams? Magic Beams? Fireballs? (Yours or the enemies'? Both, perhaps?)It ought to match Link's own Mirror Shield in behaviour. So, yeah, both.

[Majora]

as long as were on enemies, is it possible to make a "Shadow/Dark Link" enemy? Basically it would have these characteristics:

When you enter the room he's in, the Shadow Link will have the exact same sword, shield, and Ring Link has, it walks toward him and actually "slashes (or stabs)"

In the misc properties,


I have to go, but I'll finish this post later

EDIT: continuation from the last sentence:

In the misc properties:
Each number would represent 1 usable item, for example, Misc 1 would represent the boomerang, a 0 would mean no Boomerang, a 1 means L1 Brang, 2= L2 etc

Misc 2 would be Bombs, 0 = none 1 =only reg, 2 = reg + super 3 = only super

Misc 3 = Bow; 0 none 1= short 2= long (if if misc 4 = 0, then changing the number here will do nothing)

Misc 4 = arrows (if Misc 3 = 0, then changing the number here will do nothing) 0 none, 1= wooden. 2= silver, 3= golden

Misc 5= shield 1= small, 2=magic, 3=mirror (the enemy flags (invulnerable in front/back etc wont do anything if thes misc # is greater than 0)

and some more, I'm just slight;y brainstorming here

[CastChaos]

as long as were on enemies, is it possible to make a "Shadow/Dark Link" enemy? Basically it would have these characteristics:

When you enter the room he's in, the Shadow Link will have the exact same sword, shield, and Ring Link has, it walks toward him and actually "slashes (or stabs)"

In the misc properties,


I have to go, but I'll finish this post later


:odd: I'm speechless! I was thinking about in on the bus 3/4 hour ago!

So, supported. I add only the followings:
1. If it's hard to make the exact idea of MW, then at least an enemy with Link behavior would be nice. (Walks around, stabs/slashes, has shield in front, etc.)
2.Is it possible for Shadow Link to have the exact same items that Link currently has?

[splattergnome]

One attribute that I would like to see would be a "moves opposite of Link" to simulate Goriya (the guys who copied your movement patterns - a red version also shot at you if they saw you).

And how can one simulate the archers from Zelda III who tried to make sure that they were always outside of sword distance? A negative homing rate?

[_L_]

2.Is it possible for Shadow Link to have the exact same items that Link currently has?

Thinking about this gives me an idea: a "Weak shield" flag that renders the enemy's shield equal to Link's - as in, it only blocks arrows and magic and sword beams and such.

As for the main concerns, which are:
* An enemy that stabs (or even slashes) with a sword
* An enemy that has more than one weapon
I can but say: maybe, maybe not.

[Din]

That would be an awesome thing to have! Talk about one heck of a quest!:) :)

[_L_]

Certain Z3 shooters only fired when Link swung his sword. You will be able to make your own Shooters do that by setting dmisc9 to 1.

[_L_]

Concerning Traps... since you should be able to limit their directions, the following numbers can be input into dmisc9 to specify how a trap will lunge at Link:

1 = up
2 = down
4 = left
8 = right
16 = up left
32 = up right
64 = down left
128 = down right

For combinations of these, add the appropriate numbers together. Vertical is 3 and 4-Way is 15. (Of course, combinations don't work for constant-moving traps.)

These numbers also work for limiting the directions of projectile shooters. To make the shooter constantly face Link, as per the current shooters, leave dmisc9 as 0.

[TheBestGamer]

Any chance we'll be able to change the sizes of custom enemies? It's the one remaining feature I need for my quest.

[The_Amaster]

I'm tellin' ya devs, as soon as 2.5 goes public, we're gonna get a huge number of threads in the vein of "how do i change eneny sizez???" People are going to see the enemy editor, and the first thing they're going to think is "OMG, custom bosses"

[Majora]

And a gigant flood (of biblical proportions, pun semi-intended) of incredibly noobish questions. an example I can think of is when someone asked "How do I save besides dying?" I answered them, but I was thinking "you know, pressing some buttons WILL NOT BLOW UP YOUR COMPUTER"

I think the beta forums are scaring people :P

[_L_]

Okay, I've gotten the diagonal traps working. Yee-hee-hee! Also, traps will always fire perpendicular to their direction of travel, as per the "cannon" effect described above.

[AmazingAmpharos]

So, what's the status on these custom enemies? It was sounding like they were getting pretty close to completion, but then things dropped off for a few weeks. Has progress halted, or is there just nothing noteworthy to report?

About those moving traps being able to simulate the cannons from lttp, they sound pretty cool, but I forsee a few problems. If memory serves, the cannons fired a linear projectile that pierced every shield. I don't think Zelda 1 had any such projectile. There's also the concern that you only have so many different projectiles, and you might not want to use something valuable like sword beams on cannonballs(in terms of appearance). Is there going to be a way around this issue?

[_L_]

Currently, my workload resembles a stack containing the following items:

* Item editor (pretty much "done")
* Enemy editor
* To-do list
* Quite possibly an item drop editor (that is, if none of the other fellows get it made first.)

Also: the Fireball 2 can be used as a cannonball if you want. Options exist for the trap to fire it in a cardinal direction.

[_L_]

With the item editor in the film canister, I shall now attempt to unite the Vire/Pols Voice (who have been somewhat united by DN, thank you) and halting_walk - and possibly make their jump heights customisable.

[_L_]

I've had another idea: while one can currently select an enemy's weapon type, I'll also provide the ability for each enemy to use a different weapon sprite. This'll be done by selecting a Weapon/Misc entry from a drop-down menu.

[_L_]

Okay! Maybe, maybe, I can unite the Wallmaster's walking system with that of the Walking Enemy. Then, I guess I can permit Walking Enemies that drag Link away when he's hit by them.

[redmage777]

Okay! Maybe, maybe, I can unite the Wallmaster's walking system with that of the Walking Enemy. Then, I guess I can permit Walking Enemies that drag Link away when he's hit by them.

Gerudos, Castle Guards, WW Moblins... Cool. And customs weapon sprites arn't that bad either.

[_L_]

Ah - but note that such enemies will typically drag Link away through a wall, as is the Wallmaster's custom.

[ShadowTiger]

Ah - but note that such enemies will typically drag Link away through a wall, as is the Wallmaster's custom.Perhaps there could be a flag that'd just have them not walk through any walls or anything, and just have them wander around for a second or two, dragging Link with them wherever they go on their usual wandering pattern, and just walk out of there as if they had gone through a wall?


... Because ... you know... real guards don't like to disobey the laws of physics when they don't have to. Usually. ;) :blah:

[_L_]

Change of plans: the Wallmaster will remain its own family, but its dragging-away aspect (which isn't very complicated at all) will be available as a misc7 option to Walkers and Leevers (thus producing Oracles-style Floormasters).

[Majora]

Any predictions for when the next build is out? All these enemy editor additions (and additions in general) are getting me restless for a new build!

[_L_]

Well, the enemy additions won't be integrated into the source until all of them are finished, for compatability reasons.

Not sure when the next beta will be released, though.

[bigjoe]

Well, hurry it up already. You're practically begging for people to go psychotic. :scared:

[_L_]

In light of my newly released item/weapon editing capabilities, I have replaced the "invulnerable" enemy flags with a series of 16 defense variables corresponding to boomerangs, bombs, super bombs, arrows, fire, wands, magic, hookshots, hammers, sword strikes, sword beams, reflected sword beams, reflected magic, reflected fireballs, spin attacks, and quakes.

An enemy is immune to a weapon if its defense variable is greater than the weapon's power. To make an enemy that cannot be harmed by a sword with power 1, set its Sword defense to 2. To make an enemy that is immune to the stunning (level 0) boomerang, set its Boomerang defense to 1. To make an enemy that can be harmed by spin attacks but not slashes, set its Sword defense to 255 and its Spin Attack defense to 0.

Also! Every enemy, not just bosses, will have the option of a damage sound effect.

[ShadowTiger]

Perhaps the whistle as well? Multiple variations of digdoggers or Pols' Voices could hear different frequencies, perhaps.

Hm. It probably wouldn't be possible to be vulnerable to a lower weapon but invulnerable to a higher one, would it? (I.e. being vulnerable to the wood in the wooden sword, but steel doesn't affect it.)

[_L_]

I've been looking over some of the bosses (in particular, Gohma) and I must say, these guys are a cinch. If I put my mind to it, I could quite possibly implement sideways and south-to-north Gohmas.

[C-Dawg]

Simple movement patterns are equally easy to script. What is more challenging is multiple-stage boss behavior. I guess there's no easy way to build that sort of thing into the editor that would be any simpler than scripting, though. I'm talking about stuff like: move in a circle, then stop and animate, shoot at link, then continue moving, speed up at low health, etc.

[_L_]

I've already given enemies a "speed up at low health" flag, for what it's worth.

Incidentally, right now I'm figuring out how to make a Moldorm that goes faster without its individual segments becoming a little detached.

[The_Amaster]

I'm talking about stuff like: move in a circle, then stop and animate, shoot at link, then continue moving, speed up at low health, etc.


My idea for non-scripted like this(post 2.5) would be a series of fields, aranged in a 2 x X grid. The first field of each row is how many seconds into the battle it preforms the action, the second is what action is preformed at that point, from a pre-made list of stuff like "Movement Pattern A(Oval)", "fire Weapon", etc. And it would probably loop.

[AmazingAmpharos]

Oh, I see you've updated the enemy editor misc values topic since the last time, and the changes look promising. Notably, it seems like you're revamping all of the bosses to be able to appear anywhere in the room which is a major improvement and really improves flexibility. I also have to note the addition of z3 Moldorm which also happens to be listed separately from the tail weak point. What properties do z3 Moldorms have as implemented in Zelda Classic?

Also, am I correct to assume that all the listed enemies, except Moldorm who is currently being worked on, are finished? So that would leave Dodongo, Gleeok, Digdogger, Patra, Lanmolas, and Ganon to be done after Moldorm is finished. Putting it that way makes it sound like the final release of this isn't too far off, though I know that there are doubtlessly many unpredictable factors influencing that.

[_L_]

Z3 Moldorm is a combination of 2 (only tail is vulnerable) and 3 (all segments die simultaneously).

[Pheonix]

If you haven't already thought of doing so, here's an idea for Manhandla:

Body Width

For example, the regular Manhandla would be 1, while Manhandla would be 2. Don't know how what how many tiles the body would use, though. Maybe use 1x1 body tiles for odd-numbered sizes and 2x2 body tiles for the even-numbered? (If that is too much, you could just use a Misc. box for this purpose)

Of course, we would also have to include my next suggestion as well:

# of heads
And my next one:

&#37; to speed up by when head is killed

I don't know if this is possible, but think of the possibilities...

16-headed Manhandla that doubles its speed every time a head is killed. I think I'm scared

[Gleeok]

Holy moly batman! I think that would take up the whole screen. Try increasing Manhandla2's hp x10, i'm already scared. I also remember something about being able to change the nember of Gleeok heads also, but that's probably dated as well since you can just up enemy hp. I do have a question though. Will all the enemies have all the updated weapon capabilities such as rapid-fire and stream of weapons once the re-jiggering is done, or just some of them?

More specifically, any plans to make non floating enemies have rapid fire, and bosses to have both options?


EDIT: Oh yeah, it's misc1 for the heads. just dont set that to more than 150 or it will crash horribly...

[The_Amaster]

Actually, the number of Gleeok heads is completely unrelated to the HP. I think it's a misc. attribute. (Just look for whatever one corasponds with the number of heads) Heh, I remember someone making a 64 headed gleeok.

[Pheonix]

Holy moly batman! I think that would take up the whole screen.

That's why it would be so scary.

[_L_]

Good news! It turns out that deep down, Moldorms and Lanmolas are exactly the same. So I'll be uniting them into one customisable enemy type.

[_L_]

Stable release, you say? Well, if you insist, but I'll have to withhold the New Enemy Editor until afterward*. Good thing I've been working on that backwards-compatability functionality, then!

EDIT1: (Who knows, maybe with this extra time I might be able to add 2x2 enemies. It's easier than it first appears...)

EDIT2: *Unless... nah.

EDIT3: Reinstated EDIT1. Why am I so dishonest?

[Freedom]

well, since you edited it, and added the bottom part it doesn't sound so much like a little mad kid taking his enemy editor and going home after his six month run on the playground at adding features without thought of a stable version, so instead of commenting on that I'll say that's a good plan, it needs to support 2x2 enemies, that WOULD be worth waiting for.
;)

UH OH....
You edited it back out...
Well I guess the first part of my post still stands anyway then. ;)

[_L_]

Sorry!
I am sometimes indecisive.

[Freedom]

Roflol

[The_Amaster]

(Who knows, maybe with this extra time I might be able to add 2x2 enemies. It's easier than it first appears...)

Yes! YES! YES!