Thoughts upon witnessing the TP... finally.

[Chibidia]

Finally got the chance last week. Played into the game about 3 hours, beat the first dungeon, experienced a good deal of storyline, ect. Then tag on about 5 hours of watching my friend play his game files... one of which he beat (watched the ending) and another dealing with events before, during and alittle after the Temple of Time. All this on the GC version. I have yet to witness the Wii.

So... I must say, some elements of the game are indeed impressive. But, thanks to hype and expectations, this game was a bit dissapointing. I mean... ok, I'll list the con's and pro's of my opinion.

Pro -
-Cinamatics are well directed, along with character emotions and what-not. Far beyond any Zelda to date (of course).
-Aiming system is the best yet. Not to fast or to slow. It seems like I can always sight my target quickly and it feels firm and all that jazz.
-Artistry of the game is very classic fantasy. Every tree, bush and all has that glow as if things were alive. It gives the world the right tone and feel of the genre that Zelda is classified as.
-Items are nice... I'll leave it at that.
-Villages seem alive. No more members of the community who just stand in the same place 24/7... well, not as many.

Con
-The shield being used in LoZ and LttP style is a bit ackward. I would of prefered the style I've been used to since Oot and WW. Plus, no ducking and crawling (reminds me of how Mario Sunshine pissed me off with that too).
-Link's look kind of annoys me. His nose and innocent looking face sometimes make me think he's some disney character or something. Now Link was never meant to seem this way, but I tend to think he should atleast have a drop or two of alittle bad-ass brutality added in... just to even it out. He just looks to... I guess "nice" would be the word.
-Hey, it's nice to fight the Ing again!... along with yet another "alternate world". Gah! This makes what, the 5th Zelda game to do this? 6th Nintendo game, jesus.
-Main villian of the game... come on. It's starting to make all Zelda games basically feel the same with different dungeons and styles. Meh, it worked for Mario.
-Basing this off of hype, the overworld is rather bland. Sure it's huge... but... yeah, it's pretty barren. Much like the WW sea, except you don't have to change the wind and all that annoying stuff. It's like a blown up Oot landscape... with as equal amount of stuff to do, just longer to get to each from the other.
-Epona... your personal transportation elephant. I mean, seriously, she's like twice the size of any horse I've ever seen!

Probably more... but, I'm to lazy right now to list. I don't hate the game, I just obviously don't think it's as great as people made it out to be. I had more fun playing Oot the first time, and still have more fun playing LttP or something.

Oh well...

[vegeta1215]

Yep. I pretty much agree with al the things you said. I forgot about Link's facial expressions. Sometimes they were great, but sometimes they were goofy, like when he smiled. I think they should have made him more hard looking closer to the anime-style sketches his character model was based on that you can find in one of the Nintendo Power features on the making of Twilight Princess.

The aiming is just the same as in previous 3D Zeldas - it's not really any better. I think the aiming is the one thing the Wii version probably has over the Gamecube version that I'm sure everyone will agree with, esp aiming on horse back.

btw, did you play through the whole game or just watch most of it?

[Chibidia]

Yeah, that was it. Link's smile was really... yeah. Especially the Triforce scene where he almost corrupts himself or... whatever.

But uhh, well, I played the game thru the beginning, watched all the cutscenes and then left off and haven't played my game since I got to the Goron temple and saved. This was my friends copy, so I only got so long to play it. But, we hang out from Tuesday to Thursday every week and he always trucks the system along. This week I just watched him re-play his second game (I guess to beat the game again faster and collect the poes), he mainly adventured to get special items and equipment... and played the Temple of Time temple a bit. Then, well, we got a power outage when he was about to beat the temple (I think he went into a temporary coma when that happened. Ha). The outage lasted the remander of the time over at our friends so, well, that's all I've witnessed to date.

Oh, and hey, just curious and I forgot to mention this in my first, but, is the Wii version really, completely mirrored of the GC version? And if so... w... why?

[vegeta1215]

They wanted to make Link a righty in the Wii version in order to make the game feel more immersive since you use your sword by swinging the Wii-mote. Making the Wii version a mirror of the Cube version accomplished this easily.

[Nicholas Steel]

yes but how is the game mirrored? is it just link himself thats mirrored or is the whole entire world reversed? or what? and why reverse the whole world when they can just reverse links appearance?

[Orion]

Reversing only Link's appearance would throw off everything as far as collision animations, intaractions with objects, items, doors, environments, etc.

[Chibidia]

Thought so... but like, wouldn't some things just look out of place? I mean, was there like, building text that was backwards or something... a majority of left hand usage on NPC's?

...

Something?

[Nicholas Steel]

well they didnt have to reverse it so north in the gamecube is south in the wii.

[erm2003]

Text I wouldn't worry about too much. Most of the stuff in the game is labeled in Hylian and you just get the translation when you talk to people or check something to make a text box appear. I don't remember seeing any actual signs in English and if there were I am sure they changed it or that would just look weird.

I really didn't take a close look at the NPC hand usage. It never really crossed my mind to do that. I may have to watch more closely next time I play to see how that ended up working out.

[vegeta1215]

C'mon people this is old news!

The whole world is mirrored. Like Orion said, if only Link were mirrored problems would likely have occurred. Yeah, signs and such are backwards, but they're in Hylian so it's not like you can tell anyways. I think the only thing they probably had to do was change all the text so "East" is "West", and visa-versa.

[Modus Ponens]

You can actually read the "Hylian" script on the dungeon maps--really it's just highly stylized Roman letters, and on the Wii version, it's backwards.

[Grasshopper]

But, thanks to hype and expectations, this game was a bit dissapointing.

Ah, you should know better than to buy into hype. Hype has done nothing good what so ever to anything. I'm having to manually reset my hype-o meter just so I can enjoy the game the way it should be enjoyed. :)



He just looks to... I guess "nice" would be the word.
But hes a Hero. In a Nintendo-universe they all look nice. Even Bowser doesn't look all that mean. :tongue:

[Pineconn]

Oh yeah, you can read a good majority of the text. All of the maps' words are readable, except Goron Mines reads "Golon Mines." That's because Japanese uses the same letter for R and L, and the translator didn't know any better.

The sign behind the clerk in the Castle Town Malo Mart reads "Welcome." The sign outside Barnes' shop reads "Bomb." Some signs in Hyrule read "Signboard of Hyrule." The door to the Sacred Grove in the past reads "Time Door," I believe. The STAR game tent reads "Star Circus." You get the picture. ;)

I also find it interesting that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east in the Wii version (I have GCN). Also, the constellation Orion and the one shaped as a 'W' would be backward.

[Chibidia]

Grasshopper, well yeah... I'd hate to think how the game would do if it wasn't a "major mainstream" franchise. As for the sun, I suppose it's a good thing Nintendo never wrote a Tolken like bible to the universe of Hyrule. I mean, you can't even accuratly connect most of the games to one another.

[vegeta1215]

Despite it's flaws, TP is a great game. I think compared to any other game it is definitely top notch, but compared to other Zelda games it disappoints.

It's a victim of it's own hype really. Zelda games are highly anticipated as it is, but when Aonuma and others say it's the best Zelda ever, that definitely changes things.

[Modus Ponens]

I just beat Ōkami last night. I started it months ago but put it on hold while I tackled Twilight Princess. After careful deliberation, it seems to me that despite my history as a die-hard Zelda-all-the-way fanboy, Ōkami is my favorite video game ever. I so wanted that honor to go to TP, but looking objectively, it just wouldn't be fair, after all the fun I've had playing Ōkami.

[Pineconn]

Of course, you say that since you just beat it. People always tend to think that the game they just beat is the best game ever.

[Modus Ponens]

Well, maybe you're right, but I didn't feel that way about TP. Still, I'll give it a good few weeks and then we'll see.

[Glenn the Great]

Twilight Princess was a wonderful game with an overwhelming number of very, very good points. The problem was that it had many incredibly poor design decisions which are just too hard to ignore. The one main aspect that completely failed was the money system. It was a complete unbalanced disaster. For a game that was delayed for a long time, it certainly felt extremely rushed toward the end.

There is one point about the dungeons that I have not seen anyone mention anywhere at all....

Have any of you noticed that there is never a single time in the game when you are carrying more than one Small Key in a dungeon? If you have ever given deep thought to Zelda dungeon design, or perhaps designed some dungeons in Zelda Classic, you will understand that only giving the player one key at a time results in the dungeon design being over-simplified and linearized. That is the critical weakness of TP's dungeons.

[ShadowTiger]

Have any of you noticed that there is never a single time in the game when you are carrying more than one Small Key in a dungeon? If you have ever given deep thought to Zelda dungeon design, or perhaps designed some dungeons in Zelda Classic, you will understand that only giving the player one key at a time results in the dungeon design being over-simplified and linearized. That is the critical weakness of TP's dungeons.I dunno. I see your point, certainly, but if you've ever played one of the ZC Quests where the quest designer gives you more than one normal key and -two- doors that you can unlock, one of which leading to a locked boss chest or door and another leading to another normal key, ... you start to get paranoid as hell about your keys. When you only have one door to unlock with your key, you don't need to worry that you missed a door or a key or an item or anything like that because you HAVE to go there sooner or later.

[Glenn the Great]

Yes, but it logically possible to give someone any number of keys, and then design the dungeon in such a way that it is impossible to use your keys in such a way that the dungeon becomes unable to be fully completed if you don't choose wisely.

Good design allows for safety, peace of mind, and complexity.

[Orion]

I noticed the same thing Glenn, and it bugged the crap out of me. I might have mentioned it before, but there was only one dungeon that I did not complete in one sit-through, just because I never got stumped at which way to go. I don't mind a puzzle of figuring out which door top open first. That is what the dungeons have always been based on, isn't it?

And I'd have to agree that the end seemed a little rushed. While the final level was pretty, the level before it (level 8, I believe) was so short and linear, and rather underwhelming considering all they could have done with it's location

[Grasshopper]

Yes, but it logically possible to give someone any number of keys, and then design the dungeon in such a way that it is impossible to use your keys in such a way that the dungeon becomes unable to be fully completed if you don't choose wisely.

Good design allows for safety, peace of mind, and complexity.

Link's Awakening. Several times in dungeons you were given multiple keys, and no matter which door you opened first, you always had the right number of keys.

[vegeta1215]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that the dungeons felt really linear. There were a few times where I was scratching my head wondering what to do, but that didn't happen often.

OoT and MM had terrific dungeon design (esp MM, which is amazing considering it's short development time). WW had good ones too, but I don't remember much about those dungeons - I have to play that again. The dungeons in the portable Zeldas have gone down hill ever since Capcom started making them.

[Glenn the Great]

I think something that helped MM's dungeon design was the fact that the dungeon count was so low, and thus the team was able to put a heavier focus on each one.

I'm going to list off the things that I see as poor design in Twilight Princess.

-Money System Issues
It is too easy to get rupees in this game. They are everywhere, and most of the chests have 50 or 200 of them. I'd say that 80% of the time I stumble upon a money chest, I am already full on rupees, and it forces me to leave the chest, which then stays on my compass, and I'll easily forget which ones I haven't gotten to yet, and which ones I have.

Agitha, the Golden Bug girl, rewards you with incredible amounts of money for turning in those bugs. My personal story was that I had a 600 rupee maximum. I was full on rupees, and I had just found the last of the golden bugs. I had about 14 bugs on me that I had not turned in, because I wanted to wait until I actually had room to store the rupees I would win. I turned in those 14 bugs all in a row, and was awarded 1500 rupees which were completely destroyed since I was full on rupees. Now that I finish doing this, Agitha decides to let me hold more rupees. I now have room for 400 more, and I'm having a hard time understanding why none of those 1500 rupees I just threw away could have gone into this new wallet.

-Dungeon Issues
Only one small key at a time.

Many of the dungeon items were either virtually or completely worthless outside of the dungeon you found them in.

The Temple of Time dungeon didn't seem to fit in anywhere in the game. The way you accessed it didn't make much sense, and the design was poor in general. I got the feeling that this dungeon must have been wedged into the middle of the game near the end just to meet a dungeon count quota.

Another problem I have is with the villain, Ganth. For almost the entire game, he was portrayed as a horrifying menace. He was incredibly mysterious, and there was always this horrific sound effect accompanying him. I finally felt like we had a serious villain. At the end of the game, it is revealed that he is a pathetic coward, and he fights in a very desperate and confused way, much like Majora did. I found myself feeling a little sorry for him by the time I killed him.

There were also some things that really didn't make sense to me either. After being annoyed to death a million times trying to transform while there are people around, and having to move somewhere else, I started to wonder why it was so important that my ability to transform into a wolf was something to be kept hidden. It didn't really have to be mine and Midna's dirty little secret. It wasn't like we were hiding anything from Ganth. He knew. I got the feeling that most of the NPCs would understand. Why couldn't I even transform around my brave crew of "very wonderful people" that were supposed to be helping me save the world?

I think I really noticed this when I had to go back to the hidden forest area to go to the Temple of Time. Midna should have let me hop along the tree roots like she did the last time, but now I had to use a chicken. Maybe it was because someone was standing there watching? Then I discovered that I was completely unable to perform sequence jumps in all of the places that I used to be able to.

I think that there is nothing about this game that makes it "worse" than any other Zelda. It just didn't realize its potential. In my eyes, it is still an incomplete game. I believe that Nintendo should take this game, spend another year or two making a new money system, improving the dungeons, making more items, more NPCs in the overworld, better things to put in some of the chests other than rupees. Arrows should drop more often. Items should have much more use. The Red Armor should do something else. Special things should happen for getting 100% completion, (especially with getting Poes.)

Once these things are done, the game could be re-released, and it would probably top Link to the Past and Ocarina. I really hope that someday Nintendo goes in depth as to the inner details of TP's development process in a similar manner that companies like Valve do for their games. It would make for a very interesting read.

[vegeta1215]

All good points Glenn.

I'm sure everyone will agree that the entrance to the Temple of Time dungeon (going from the through that magic door) was amazing. It's just so sad that the dungeon was the clunkiest of all of the dungeons, esp having to move that statue around.

Like you said, lots of wasted potential.

[Pineconn]

The only problem with the Temple of Time for me is that it was so easy. I never lost too much life. I mean, come on! Lizalfos and Beamos, assisted with stupidly easy Ghoma enemies. Same with the City in the Sky. Helmasaurs? Deku Babas and Deku Serpents? Those two are from the first dungeon!

Oh well. I guess the 3-heart challenge will be fun.

[Chibidia]

Or more appropriate. I can't believe the "supreme extreme" sword battle at the very end... your foe, for being so godlike... barelly takes any health away at all! I mean, in Oot, Ganon took 4 hearts with each swipe! And this was if you had the shield over your heart stock.

The Temple of Time... yeah, that door/time phase thing was really cool. The SFX that accompanied it was pretty sweet. Although... why would the legendary Temple of Time actually be... a dungeon/temple? That's like, the church from ALttP being a mighty labrynth.

...

Ok... it KINDA was. But still...

[Glenn the Great]

What really irritated me about many of the dungeons is that I would walk in for the first time, and the first thing I always do when I reach a new dungeon is look at the map screen to see how many floors it has. A lot of the dungeons had a whole lot of floors, and it would give you the impression that this would be a large and sprawling dungeon, and then you find that there are only one or two rooms per floor.

[Pineconn]

Yes, yes, yes! Many of the dungeons' bottom or top floors were designated for only the boss battle. Which were easy, too, but I know I needn't say that.

And what really bugs me is all the flickering shadows! Seriously, does this occur on the Wii version? The flickering shadows are especially noticeable in the Gerudo Desert and the Hidden Village. The camera needs to be 90 degrees at the shadow and they will commonly flicker.

Also, on the Wii version, someone please tell me if the Gerudo Desert looks BAD at night. You'd know what I mean if they do.

[Nicholas Steel]

why mirror the game tho? if he used his hands to point at things and or move his hand across text as he reads it... you can just position link to the right a bit and voila... fixed.

[Glenn the Great]

That won't always work. Think about other things, like opening doors.

[Nicholas Steel]

where he stands is based on whether the door opens inwards or outwards.... whats wrong with doors?

[Grasshopper]

I'm sure its much easier from a programmers perspective, to mirror the way objects are drawn on the screen then to make physical adjustments to models and such.

[Modus Ponens]

Frankly, I see the whole mirroring thing to be entirely a non-issue. Like, it's noteworthy because it's interesting, but it sure didn't adversely impact my experience with the game.

[Nicholas Steel]

er, grasshopper how did you know what i wrote o_O? it didn't make any sense to me haha so i changed it.