I'm sorry to say this, but I can't continue

[jman2050]

Yeah, it seems like the most inconvinient time to do so, what with ZC 2.5 nearing and all, but I have to confess: this isn't satisfying anymore. It was pretty cool programming ZC, don't get me wrong, but now it's become a tedious bottleneck for me. I have other interests I want to pursue, including one thing in particular that will take some time and effort on my part to accomplish. Thing is, I can't continue doing this.

I've been trying to be amicable and understanding to the needs of the fanbase, but the truth is I've been wanting to quit this since October/November. That's the reason I wanted 2.5 to come out by the end of the year, so I can finally have some sort of closure when I leave the project. However, it's becoming increasingly clear that 2.5 won't be out for at least another month, if not more. Part of me would like to finish this, but most of me says 'no way'. I do feel bad about "betraying" the fan base, but I'm not the only dev here, and this does not signal the death of ZC. Other devs will come to replace me if DN has his way, and the current devs (yes, _L_ included) will do their best to get 2.5 out in a timely manner. Also, I won't disappear completely. I'll still be here for consulting purposes, and will still have accss to the source code. And perhaps, if things turn out the right way, I'll return to finish what I came on here to do... actively develop ZC to the point of stability.

I expect some kneejerk reactions, but I hope that at least some of you will understand where I'm coming from. I apologize again.

[_L_]

Thank you for all that you've done to help Zelda Classic!

[Sephiroth]

:< Sad to see you leave, jman. :< As _L_ said, Thank you for all you've done for ZC!

[C-Dawg]

Sad to see you go, man. You were one of, if not the, most responsive dev. Thanks for your work on the project.

[Dark Nation]

I second C-Dawg's comment.

[Saffith]

And third. Can't say I don't understand, but you'll certainly be missed.

[Lotus_Eater]

Best of luck with all your projects, and I will never harbor any feelings of ill will towards you about this. You helped out as best you could I an personally thank you for all the time and such you spent on this project.

Have a great day,
Lotus

[Limzo]

Goodbye Jman, and thanks for all you've done to ZC./

[rocksfan13]

I hate to see you go but, you do what you must. Thanks for everything you've done for us.

[redmage777]

I was shocked... when I say that it was you. When I first saw the title, I though it was another tester fallowing Freedom's lead. Sad to see you go, I sort of got the Impression that you were the one doing all the work too.

[KJAZZ]

It's a shame, but I suppose it can't be helped. You've done a really good job, Jman. Thanks for all the work you've put into ZC. You shall be missed.

[CastChaos]

A sad accident... I always (or rather in the late time) thought for Jman as the lead developer of ZC... ZC wouldn't be the same without him... I hope everything will be superb with you as time passes... ...and I also hope that you will once return but only after everything is well and you feel that you can do it... (come on, I need to say this).

Thank you jman2050!

[DarkFlameWolf]

Good luck in whatever you do Jman. I'll go bug Koopa from now on with all bug reports! XD Best of luck.

EDIT: Furthermore, I've received word from Petoe that this bit of news might just shut down LI as well. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Petoe]

:(

Well... This is like the worst possible news. jman was the best and the most hard working dev ever. Without him I would have lost faith in ZC a long time ago...

But now, I guess this is the end then. Thanks a lot for abandoning us jman. Without you, there will never be a stable ZC... unless Dn and the other devs become more active again. But anyhow, what a devastating loss and day for ZC.

I better log off now to cool off before I overreact and announce the cancellation of Lost Isle.

[ShadowTiger]

A loss indeed. Quite the dire one. I've always loved jman's style, and this day marks more the appearance of that deep black hole of despair moreso than the bugginess ever did.

I don't think anyone could ever replace you, Mark.*





* - (Not his real name. ;) )

[Love For Fire]

Can't really blame you, it seems like every step forward forces you two steps back because of bugs. It really sucks because quite a few people here (myself included) see you as the leader of all the developers... and as some sort of hope that a stable release will one day come. With your departure, it makes me lose faith in stable ZC. But like I said in the beginning, I can't blame you.

Thanks for all of your contributions, and good luck with whatever you decide to do after this.

[elise]

Jman I am really sad to see you go ........

[ShadowTiger]

Let's just not forget to think about other people before ourselves. I know you're going to hate me for saying it, but think about jman's interests. He has a life too, and nobody should be chained to something they don't want to do when it was they who had originally volunteered for it in the first place. ... all without getting paid to do it.

He's given us everything (Features and bugs and all.) and hasn't gotten anything out of it except far more aggravation than he has amazement at what his innovations have brought forth.

[Petoe]

but think about jman's interests. He has a life too, and nobody should be chained to something they don't want to do when it was they who had originally volunteered for it in the first place.

Life is more important than anything on the internet, that's for sure. So there's nothing wrong in leaving if you just don't like what you're doing...

BUT... the way jman left... dammit. he could have warned us somehow that his interest was getting thinner and a stunt like this could be expected sometime in the future. That way we could have prepared for this bad news somehow and for example I wouldn't have used tons of hours now gone to waste to work on a quest.
Instead of preparing us for his departure, jman gave us (well at least me on AIM) false hope, constantly defending L and saying how he is so confident and sure that ZC will be stable soon and he will try to make sure that the devs make bugfixing their #1 priority...

..and now I see this, how am I supposed to feel?
"Yeah, it's okay that you lied to me and gave flase hope jman, take care"

Blah...

All I can do is hope and pray that the rest of the developers will pick up the pieces and make ZC stable. Koopa, DN, even L.. you guys can do it! There will be a stable ZC someday.

[Shoelace]

Well jman, I want to say thank you for everything. I understand everything that you said. You have done so much in your little time that you were developing Zelda Classic. I do think it sucks that you didn't stay until the stable version, because lets face it, you were the face of the stable version. Everyone that hoped for a stable version was counting on you, because they knew you wanted it badly. But with you gone, I don't know what will happen. I am still going to put faith in the other developers not because it is the only thing I can do, but because the community will fall apart if not.

But you will be missed. I thank you so much for doing what you did for Zelda Classic. I wish you the best of luck on everything, and hopefully you stay around here even if you aren't the developer. Thank you.

[Freedom]

because lets face it, you were the face of the stable version. Everyone that hoped for a stable version was counting on you,

I shared my thoughts about this whole thing in a PM to Jman... but yea, Shoelace's quote pretty well sums it up.

Like I said a couple days ago in another post, you can't fight from within and without, or put even better, by a guy 2000 years ago, that everyone on the planet knows...
"A house divided cannot stand"

[*b*]

Damn, man, that sucks. I know what you mean, though. Doing one thing for too long makes it lose it's appeal. At the very least, not I'll stop begging you for Z3 screen scrolling (yay)

Now who am I going to be able to bribe to add features for me?

[jman2050]

Also, just so everyone knows, I AM looking for a succesor to continue working on the project. Hopefully the person or persons I find will be suitable for the job.

[ShadowTiger]

*Wishes someone would ask itsyfox.*

...

*Wishes he had a more solid postcount and posting time to be chosen with more securely a mind*

[The_Amaster]

*Sigh* All we can do now is remember the good times.

Remember "A Revolution is Coming". Ah, so many memories. Jokes all around...friendly faces...mounting tension reaching borderline insanity...good time...good times.


Jman, ye shall be missed.

[Radien ZC]

Well, ya do what ya gotta do. If this really has been on your mind since October, you've certainly had time to think about it.

I'm going to hope that your frequent appearances on the message board are a clue that the rest of the devs would rather spend more time working on the program itself. :) In any case, you did a great job.

I hope you'll stick around the forums to "impart your wisdom" indirectly. Good luck with everything else you hope to accomplish.

[Revfan9]

I'm sorry the community did this to you Jman. Godspeed.

[erm2003]

Thank you for all your contributions jman.

[beefster09]

Awww! You're leaving! Well good job with all of what you did. Well, Jman, you did good things to ZC. But I bet some people think that hope for a stable release is gone. Well, I think you did the right thing. I'd quit too if I were tired of it.

[C-Dawg]

Life is more important than anything on the internet, that's for sure.

Hey now, the internet is SERIOUS BUSINESS, I hear.

[Nicholas Steel]

noooooooo, if freedom's right about _L_ being glenn the great then were all doomed.... no one but none could fix what _L_ has done like you have been jman -.-'

ah well enough sarcasm and sorry _L_ (no hard feelings?) im sad to see you go jman but yea like everyone says... if you gotta go, you gotta go.

[itsyfox]

*Wishes someone would ask itsyfox.*

WOW. o_O

Yeah, I haven't been here that long. And, while I program things (and am working quite hard AND eagerly on Rope), I don't think I'd fit well as one of your devs, much less match jman.

1) I didn't start with C, and I'm still quite unfamiliar with it. If Allegro's a C library, I can probably learn it, (especially now that I've learned more about the things that stumped me before) but I'd be slow and perhaps not the best/most efficient coder.

2) I get excited with projects like Rope because I have the idea for them and my brain just comes alive. I LOVE doing stuff like this, and this isn't my first big project I've contributed to a community. But I'm not neccessarily dependable. I have periods of being all fired up, and then I run into a problem, and work myself into a rut trying to fix it. This usually results in a break of variable length. Lately they've been shorter, and I've been more responsible, but that doesn't mean I won't give myself too big a headache any time soon and need a breather.

3) I don't know your code, and while I know all the other devs who signed on later than the originals had to learn it, it'd be a little different for me. From what glimpses I've gotten of what the devs are up to, from how they've responded to various questions/suggestions, and how they've talked about the issues involved in implementing new features or changing/fixing/removing/revamping old features, I'd take a gander the code is partly broken up (because of multiple devs over the internet), and partly really interdependant, so you can't just take a single 'feature' and remove or change it without fixing a bunch of other things that relied on it.

So, thank you for the support, but, I'm not who you're looking for. Right now, I'll just stick to Rope and see how that goes. ^_^

[Nick]

It was great having you around jman2050. You added new features that made me shout with joy and fixed bugs related to that, but more importantly, you were one of the only developers that I noticed with a more active involvement in the user side of the program as well (no offense to the other developers meant... I'm also biased because I beta tested RH for a little bit :blah: ).

Anyway, good luck with what you plan on doing in the future. :)

[Modus Ponens]

jman, I'm sorry to see you go. Your contributions have been numerous and invaluable. I wish you well, and hope that you find happiness and success in your endeavors. Remember that you're always more than welcome here.

Also, I'm honored to have you on my Wii friend list.

[Master_of_Power]

Hey, thanks a lot for all that you've done for us, but do you think you can do us one last favor? Can you please tell us what all the misc functions are in the enemy editor? If you don't... well... I guess we'll all figure it out eventually.

[Imprisoned]

This is very sad... a huge loss for everyone of us, and mostly... Zelda Classic.

Your name shall hang forever in my Hall of Fame.

Nobody shall ever forget you. For what you have done for Zelda Classic, and
most of all, the fans.

Live in peace. Live in peace, Jman.

I hope we see you someday here... again.



This might be the end of my quest too, if 2.5 isn't released... the bugs... are preventing
me to continue.

[bluedeath]

Do what you gotta do man, I know its sad you see you go, but im sure ZC will be fine, 2.5 wont exactly be as good without you helping, but it will be the best version yet.

[koopa]

Jman, it's a shame for ZC but it's what you want that ultimately counts. I wish you much luck in your future and hope that you get the kind of job you're hoping for - with your programming skills, you deserve no less. Thanks from me too for all you did for ZC.

When I joined up to help ZC, it was at first just DN, him and me. Although I try my best jman's skills are far superior than mine and I won't be able to replace him. That said, I'll still stay with ZC and do all I can. I'm glad he's looking for someone else to join us, though.

Even now, ZC is far from dead - perhaps the stable release will take longer again, but I refuse to believe it'll never happen.

[Noli]

Oh no!! Jman I wish you would change your mind and stay, but I can't because I believe the time has come for you for another chapter. :cry: Good luck.

[Radien ZC]

This is very sad... a huge loss for everyone of us, and mostly... Zelda Classic.

Your name shall hang forever in my Hall of Fame.

Nobody shall ever forget you. For what you have done for Zelda Classic, and
most of all, the fans.

Live in peace. Live in peace, Jman.

I hope we see you someday here... again.

Jeez Leweez, Imprisoned... you talk like he's DEAD already. :P

I should remind everybody here: remember the person who achieved the miraculous feat of turning Zelda 1 into a quest editor? Known as "Phantom Menace?"...

Well, he's been gone for many years now. And yet the project lives on.

Good programmers come, leave their mark on Zelda Classic, and then eventually they leave. It's the Circle of Life, 'n' stuff.

[Revfan9]

This might be the end of my quest too, if 2.5 isn't released... the bugs... are preventing
me to continue.

"OMG! The Cane of Bynra doesn't work so I have to delete my quest!"

-_-

[Love For Fire]

It's more the warp crashes, broken wand flag, aquamentus bug, and copy screen bug that makes it difficult to build quests...

[Revfan9]

Note: Stop building quests in the builds...

Also, you can easily work around a player bug by just continuing to make areas in the editor. In 16c, it seems to me that all of those bugs are in the player.

[Love For Fire]

You're absolutely right. That's why right now I'm only developing in 2.10.

[jovo]

It seems to me Jman was the most ambitious and important devveloper. Like everyone else I am going to say this is a big blow for zc.


"OMG! The Cane of Bynra doesn't work so I have to delete my quest!"

-_-

You're a stupid retard -_- why dont ya do everyone a favor and break your wrists?

[bluedeath]

Wtf jovo?

[Freedom]

You're a stupid retard -_- why dont ya do everyone a favor and break your wrists?

I completely agree with and support this statement.
Revfan has NEVER built and released a quest, yet he tells all those who have what they need and don't need to do it.
Calling him a stupid retard was being very kind in my opinion.

[Petoe]

Hehe, well Revfan usually has no idea what he is talking about and he constantly talks out of line showing his lack of respect for veteran quest developers, but no need to get offensive here... though I can't help but fully agree with Freedom's statement once again. :P

[Freedom]

I stand corrected, It seems he did release 1 quest, and since it wasn't in the database I missed seeing it.

from the thread,


Clippy Chronicles-Director's Cut, NOEZ NOT AGAIN!!!!!

How bad is this quest (10 being the worst)?
How bad is this quest (10 being the worst)?
1 [1] ** [11.11%]
2 [1] ** [11.11%]
3 [0] ** [0.00%]
4 [0] ** [0.00%]
5 [1] ** [11.11%]
6 [0] ** [0.00%]
7 [0] ** [0.00%]
8 [0] ** [0.00%]
9 [0] ** [0.00%]
10 [6] ** [66.67%]

My appolgies revfan, for not crediting you with your accomplisment, but the rest of my post above still stands.

[Revfan9]

Freedom, just because we have never released a full quest does not mean we do not build quests. That does not mean we do not put up with bugs. That does not mean we do not feel the same way you do. ShadowTiger hasn't released a quest either, and yet I don't see anyone flaming him for it. Me and _L_ are nothing but enemies that has been created by this current, mild psyche of panic. No matter what we do, people are just going to hate us because of who we are.

[Freedom]

ShadowTiger doesn't make ignorant post after ignorant post, which is why you get flamed and he doesn't.

[ShadowTiger]

Yes I do.

I don't build quests like you do, Freedom. I only really understand half of your point, .. half of how it feels to spend 1000+ hours on a quest only to have it fail due to a bug the devs left in. I can appreciate half of it though, at least, as Almost all of my effort goes into tileset building, and being generally creative. I don't try to "finish" anything, because the things I have to "finish" are composed almost entirely out of things like installing a lengthy series of combo aliases into a quest, Dungeon Carving setups, drawing a new dungeon and getting it set up, ... ... ... basically any of my tiles in Pure's database. So no, I've never finished a quest, only because I think that me drawing and setting things up for other people is a better use of my time.

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with the conversation at hand, but still, anyone can say that thousands of hours of work going down the drain would be a very negative thing for a person to experience. That just stands to reason.


Now, um, ... there's a lot of flaming going on in this thread. I'm not really one to administer warnings, but I do have the ability to edit peoples' posts. While I can honestly say that I hold you all in very high regards, despite what's being flung around, but it really needs to stop, (Or at least be toned down significantly into something more of a heatless debate.) before the higherups (Who are watching this thread right now, so I've been told.) start banning people for disrupting the peace on their forums.

You and I both don't want that to happen. Obviously. It just needs to end in as peaceful a way possible. You (In the general sense) have your own opinions, and they're just as valid as the next person's, but they NEED to be stated in a way that won't get people up in a heaval.

I don't care who's being a hypocrit. I don't care who's flinging insults. I don't care who wants what Developer to do what or why. It just needs to calm down so people won't see the Zelda Classic forums bringing down the community from the inside out.

First person to say the developers are the ones doing it after I said all that gets their post edited out for disrupting the peace. Not Zelda Classic. The Peace. I don't care if you think it's true or not. The Devs are people too, and they're doing their best to fix the program, whereas all you can do is test out the bugs that exist. They're the ones in control of the program. Either find someone more trustworthy to help out, or stop the flaming. It's not doing anything but making you look like an ass in front of everybody.

EDIT: No, this isn't directed at you, Freedom. :p I know you wouldn't want the forums to erupt into flaming.

[Freedom]

*digests ShadowTiger's post and puts revfan on his ignore list*

[jman2050]

Okay, that's it. This isn't General Bitching, this is ZC Beta Discussion. jovo seems to have some issues with flaming, but calling someone retarded, and agreeing with said assessment, is crossing the line.

Next person to start flaming in this topic or any topic on the beta forums for that matter is getting banned. No warnings, just a straight out ban. We clear?

[Dlbrooks33]

I understand, go on and live your life, but you will check in now and then right?

[Stungun]

Community tearing itself apart from the inside. People hurling insults around at each other and making rude, sarcastic remarks. The public getting angry at developers. Jman leaving. If this isn't the end, it's one of the rougest times Zelda Classic is going to go through... the way it's looking.

[Nicholas Steel]

er not EVERYONE will see your message in this thread jman2050 -.-'

[DarkFlameWolf]

and people randomly referring to themselves in the 'we' sense and thinking they are a dev when they are not. Weird times for ZC indeed. XD

[goKi]

Let's stop this right now, eh?

There's no reason for such bs. Jovo has been banned for 2 weeks for flaming. Freedom, you're not too far behind right now.

[DarkDragon]

I must say this has come as a great shock for me; I've always considered you as second-in-command of the project. I feel guilty having abandoned you guys this semester, but I'm returning to the states next week and will do my best to speed along 2.5.

Best of luck with the Sonic project and all of your other endeavors.

[Imprisoned]

Oh yeah... this flaming is my fault right?

[Dart Zaidyer]

Everyone's talking about how well JMan did and how everyone's going to miss him. Did I miss the part where he said he was leaving the community altogether?

Either way, he couldn't have picked a worse time to leave the dev team. Half the community is at each other's throats over every new beta that comes out, and it's become quite clear in less than a day already that he was the only one capable of listening to the masses. The rest of the team is figuring out how to add new bells and whistles (slowly, of course), while _L_ is eager to cut out features that already work. (None of which are the ones he added, by the way.)
JMan brought a sense of unity, direction, and most importantly, approachability to a team that seems to be incapable of it when left to their own devices.

[C-Dawg]

Half the community is at each other's throats over every new beta that comes out

More accurately, five or six individuals are doing the fighting. Over a video game. I've got a picture of a DRAMA LLAMA somewhere, and I'd post it up if I wasn't at work.

[Shoelace]

C-Dawg, it isn't just a video game to some people. Sure Dancing is just dancing, sports is just sports, programming is just programming, etc., however this is people's passion. It is more than a video game to me, it is my passion.

[Dart Zaidyer]

And it's these people you have to watch out for! Because as we all know, the Internet is Serious Business™. One minute you're happily plugging away at some project, ignoring the freakshow that's going on between five people over God-knows-what, and the next thing you know, some fanatic has gone and ruined it for everybody, including yourself. Was he right? Was he wrong? Who cares, the whole thing's gone up in smoke!

I've seen it about five or six times, as a matter of fact.

[Freelancer]

I wanted to thank jman for all his contributions to this program. I've really enjoyed working with it, and all the stuff. Without you, I'll bet that this program wouldn't be as powerful as it is now. I wish for you to enjoy your future which lies ahead of you.

Thank you so much for all your contributions. You programmers have made so many new features that can help satisfy the many creative minded users.

[The_Amaster]

He....on the plus side, we now get to split all the stuff we bugged JMan about between the other devs. L already has taken over the whole "Too many new features" mantra. Perhaps we give the "We need bugfixes comments" to Koopa?

[Petoe]

C-Dawg, it isn't just a video game to some people. Sure Dancing is just dancing, sports is just sports, programming is just programming, etc., however this is people's passion. It is more than a video game to me, it is my passion.

Indeed Shoelace. I've grown up with Nintendo + I am a very creative and artistic person, so making games is just a natural "hobby" for me. When I found out about ZC, it was a dream come true. I love ZC, and I am a passionate and hard working quest builder so naturally I am one of the guys who have been freaking out "too much" to maybe some of you guys. But come on, maybe you don't care about ZC that much or you have a real life ;) but it's not nice to see your favorite thing getting ruined, and ZC is that to me... a favorite thing getting ruined.

I'm not surprised at C-Dawg's comment at all because even though you are the greatest quest maker, you don't seem to care about bugs or unstabilty (both of your quests are just so dman buggy :p ), so I understand if you don't understand all of this drama.

[skateboarder11]

Good choice, jman. Don't put any unnecessary stress on yourself.

I'm still with 1.92, btw.

[CJC]

More accurately, five or six individuals are doing the fighting. Over a video game. I've got a picture of a DRAMA LLAMA somewhere, and I'd post it up if I wasn't at work.


I've been noticing this more and more lately... C-Dawg is usually right about these sorts of things. And Jman is right too.
This is a hobby. If you're so impassioned that you think the project is being ruined, or that someone else is ruining the project, then take a break and go do something else. Draw a picture. Paint the chickens. Mow the fence.


Jman is doing the right thing. Stress causes frustration and frustration hinders productivity... and everyone here should know by now that every moment of every day is precious.
And as for the other devs? Give them a break. They're working as hard as they can on something that's freeware. If the community keeps putting pressure on them, then they'll split and Zelda Classic will cease to exist.



So, my departing words of wisdom? Take a break. If you don't like bugs... go back to an earlier version. 1.92 was nice, and lasted us a real long time.
If you want to test new features, you're going to get your hands a little dirty. And the only way you can find the bugs is if you get down on your knees and look for them.

Do note that this was not directed at anyone in particular. I don't think it was abusive enough to be trolling, but if it was indeed offensive feel free to temp-ban me. I'm just sick of people taking a crap on our developers.


Good luck, Jman. I hope you don't take all the complaining too personally.