Sorely needed Lens fix -- rule to turn off secret combo visibility

[Radien ZC]

The Lens of Truth is a great item concept, but the way it is currently implemented in ZC is NOT good.

As it stands, you can use the Lens of Truth to see any secret combo. It doesn't matter whether it's a puzzle, or a "trigger perm." used to remove a cut scene: the Lens always treats it as something the player should see. It's very messy.

This suggestion is simple: have a quest rule to disable visibility for all secret combos EXCEPT those that have the "lens marker" flag. Or at the VERY least, have a quest rule that removes all secret combo visibility, so questmakers can work solely with flag #14.

Example of how it might work: a combo is assigned flag #14 as an inherent flag, and flag #16 as a placed flag. When the Lens is used, this would show the secret combo for flag #16 rather than the actual combo. Without flag #14, the Lens would see nothing out of the ordinary about the combo.


I think this pertains to the beta because inherent flags open up new possibilities.

[ShadowTiger]

So no screen flag then. Perhaps even a "Toggle" sort of thing, for those rooms where you'd use the .. well, your example. I can see what you mean. Does sound a bit dire when put like that.

[Radien ZC]

So no screen flag then. Perhaps even a "Toggle" sort of thing, for those rooms where you'd use the .. well, your example. I can see what you mean. Does sound a bit dire when put like that.
If the "lens marker" flag were used to show which secret combos should be visible, it wouldn't matter much whether it's a screen flag or a quest rule. Because if you want secret combos to be visible on a given screen, you could just assign flag #14 to whatever should be visible.

But yeah, either Quest Rule + flag #14 implementation, or just a screen flag version of the quest rule. Either would work well. Actually, come to think of it, the screen flag idea sounds better, and simpler...

[Nimono]

Well, what if someone wanted to make the "fake walls" that OoT's Shadow Temple had? Remember, those walls showed what was behind them, but your idea would virtually DESTROY THAT. The Lens Marker Flag simply shows a flashing yellow square. I can understand about the secrets thing, but, if you took that away, you'd destroy the purpose of the Lens. The Lens is SUPPOSED to show the secrets, whether you want it or not. That's what it's SUPPOSED to do. Still, I don't know whether to agree or disagree with it... Hmm...

[beefster09]

Well, what if someone wanted to make the "fake walls" that OoT's Shadow Temple had? Remember, those walls showed what was behind them, but your idea would virtually DESTROY THAT. The Lens Marker Flag simply shows a flashing yellow square. I can understand about the secrets thing, but, if you took that away, you'd destroy the purpose of the Lens. The Lens is SUPPOSED to show the secrets, whether you want it or not. That's what it's SUPPOSED to do. Still, I don't know whether to agree or disagree with it... Hmm...
Perhaps a rule- no flashing lens squares. Best used in conjunction with other lens rules... including this one.
We also need a "lens works on layers" rule.
EDIT: Why not add a flag- no lens secrets.

[Radien ZC]

Pikaguy:

Dude. Quest rules and screen flags can be unchecked. My idea wouldn't "destroy" anything.

As for what it was "meant" to do, the developers didn't invent the Lens of Truth, they interpretted it.

I think you need an example of the problem:

http://bluecrescent.rpgcafe.net/zelda/examples/lens1.gif
Here's a screen before playing the Ocarina.

http://bluecrescent.rpgcafe.net/zelda/examples/lens2.gif
Here's what happens after you stand on the symbol, play the ocarina, and then step off. It warps you to this screen: a version of the original where it's raining, thus raising the water level. It's on a different DMap, hence the palette change.

http://bluecrescent.rpgcafe.net/zelda/examples/lens3.gif
Here's what happens when you use the Lens on the original screen. Note that it is ignoring the combos on layer 1 which are supposed to cover up the "Pit" combos. The end result is pretty ugly. Even if I used blank tiles for the pit combos, you would still be able to "see the strings." This problem with the lens applies to dozens of screens in my quest.

Do you understand the problem now?

[Nimono]

I understood it from the start, but I don't like the yellow flicker appearing over turn he secret combo. Having flags to turn off Lens functioning for each individual flag is a good fix, but VERY annoying to use, on account of the fact that there's a ton of trigger and secret flags...

[Radien ZC]

I understood it from the start, but I don't like the yellow flicker appearing over turn he secret combo. Having flags to turn off Lens functioning for each individual flag is a good fix, but VERY annoying to use, on account of the fact that there's a ton of trigger and secret flags...

Ahh.... earlier, I tried using inherent flags to test what you're talking about. When you place, for instance, flag #14 and flag #16 on the same combo, the secret combo overrides the lens marker, and it doesn't flash.

Now that I understand what you're worried about, I agree. But in any case, I think a screen flag would be better, like ShadowTiger suggested.

[Nimono]

O_o That's not what I meant. Let me rephrase that: I just plain DON'T LIKE THAT YELLOW FLICKER. It was SUPPOSED to be used for those invisible walkways, so you'd know where to walk. It wasn't meant to be used as a secret marker.

Oh yeah, and sorry for that big spelling mistake in my last post. I finally got my wireless router working after FOUR DANG DAYS, so I'm posting from my laptop now. Unfortunately, it's very hard to type using this tiny keyboard. Oh well. And just so you know, what I meant to post where I put "appearing over turn he secret combo" was "appearing over the secret combo". Which doesn't make sense when you take into account the fact that you can't have both flags working on the same combo... XD

[Radien ZC]

O_o That's not what I meant. Let me rephrase that: I just plain DON'T LIKE THAT YELLOW FLICKER. It was SUPPOSED to be used for those invisible walkways, so you'd know where to walk. It wasn't meant to be used as a secret marker.
Okay, okay. ^_^; My suggestion wasn't supposed to involve forcing anyone to use the yellow flicker... If you think flag #14 isn't supposed to be used as a "secret marker," however, that's a technical reason. A valid one, though.

I don't THINK your typo confused me... however, yeah, currently only one flag will work at a time, but you CAN place both on one combo with inherent flags, as I'm sure you knew.

...But we still have no choice about which secrets show and which ones don't. Do you agree in saying this is a major problem for the Lens?

[Nimono]

Okay, okay. ^_^; My suggestion wasn't supposed to involve forcing anyone to use the yellow flicker... If you think flag #14 isn't supposed to be used as a "secret marker," however, that's a technical reason. A valid one, though.

I don't THINK your typo confused me... however, yeah, currently only one flag will work at a time, but you CAN place both on one combo with inherent flags, as I'm sure you knew.

...But we still have no choice about which secrets show and which ones don't. Do you agree in saying this is a major problem for the Lens?

Yes, I do. (STUPID LAPTOP KEYBOARD MAKING ME PRESS THE "I" KEY THREE TIMES JUST TO GET IT TO WORK.) But the only idea I have to fix that is to make a seperate screen flag for each secret the Lens can show, and I think that'd just be too much for the devs. And trust me, having a quest rule that keeps the Lens from showing Secret Flags 16-31 won't work, as people WILL use those for normal secrets. What if people don't want to use that cool rule that allows items to be used at the edge of a screen? They'd need to use secret combos to create Bombable walls if they use LA/Oracles-style dungeons (One layer of wall (no "inner edge")), like I used to have to do. Meh. Whatever. But while my idea is VERY tedious, you have to admit, it's one of the few ideas that'd work.

[Radien ZC]

I think you've lost me. ^^; Anyway, I don't see why a simple screen flag wouldn't work. If you dedicate secret combos to the task of having invisible objects, chances are you aren't going to want to trigger those same secrets, at least not usually. So consequently, there's very little overlap between the two functions on any given screen.

[Nimono]

I think you've lost me. ^^; Anyway, I don't see why a simple screen flag wouldn't work. If you dedicate secret combos to the task of having invisible objects, chances are you aren't going to want to trigger those same secrets, at least not usually. So consequently, there's very little overlap between the two functions on any given screen.

Well, let me put it this way: People will make secrets they want shown, and those they DON'T want shown. One screen flag/quest rule turns off ALL of them regardless of whether or not the player wanted them to be shown by the Lens. The only logical solution I can see to avoid that is to make a seperate screen flag/quest rule for every single Secret Flag, and who wants that? :p

[Radien ZC]

Well, let me put it this way: People will make secrets they want shown, and those they DON'T want shown. One screen flag/quest rule turns off ALL of them regardless of whether or not the player wanted them to be shown by the Lens. The only logical solution I can see to avoid that is to make a seperate screen flag/quest rule for every single Secret Flag, and who wants that? :p

I think you need to think a little bit more about this:

If someone has secret flags #16-31 on the screen, and checks this hypothetical screen flag we're talking about, they'll be using those NOT as the combos that Link will actually trigger to appear. They'll function as alternate tiles for the combos that are actually there. If you had an invisible bridge, for instance, you'd still have to have walkable ravine tiles in addition to unwalkable, even though there are bridge combos assigned to the Secret Combos dialog.

Now, if the secret combos are representing a bridge that is already there, there is no reason to activate the secret and make it appear. All that'd do would make it visible without the lens.

The one exception to this would be if the player is using the Singular flag on the same screen. Frankly, I think questmakers can learn to do without singular flags on those screens, because programming in an added feature for Singular flags would be MANY times more complicated for the developers. The feature would change from a simple screen flag to a complex individual combo property.

Personally, I have no desire for such a feature. I don't need two separate puzzles on a Lens of Truth screen.