Enemy Editor Discussion and Questions [Archive]

Linkus

01-05-2007, 09:32 PM

To help, I'll post the explanations I've posted over at the b16 topic:

-------------------------------------------------
Data 1
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Name: Name your enemy.(automatically organizes alphabetically if you save it)
O. Tile--Old tile. This is what ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is unchecked.
S. Tile--Special Tile. Certain enemies use this tile for special purposes; Darknuts use it as a "Broken Shield" tile, as well as a few other enemies.
E. Tile--New Tile. ZC refers to this when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is checked.
W: and H:The W and H values are basically X and Y; the correspond to the tile above them. Put the top-left most tile in the box if your enemy is more than 1x1 tiles large.
HP:--Enemy's HP. 1 makes the enemy defeatable to the Boomerang and all weapons; 2 does the same, but the boomerang stuns the enemy. (Wooden Sword does 2 damage to any enemy.)
Damage: Damage done to Link; goes by half hearts(and Link has the green tunic).
W. Damage: Damage done by a weapon; damage is measured as the same as above.
Random Rate:--The rate the enemy changes direction; the higher the number, the more the enemy changes direction.
Halt rate:--How long an enemy waits before firing a projectile.
Homing rate:--The enemy's "brain"--this determines how close the enemy follows Link.
Step Speed:--How fast an enemy goes.
Hunger:--Determines how attracted the enemy is to the Bait.
Weapon:--Determines what weapon the enmy uses. Note: you must have a Walker and Shooter or a preset enemy function that uses projectile as your type!
Type:--What your enemy does. Many types are here, including preset enemy functions(Keese, Darknut, Wizzrobe, etc.).
O. Anim: Old Animation. The animation ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is unchecked.
E. Anim: New Animation. The animation ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is checked.
Item Set: What the enemy drops when you defeat it.
BG SFX: The SFX plays when you are in the same screen as the enemy; set it to -1 if you do not want a SFX.
Pal Cset: Uses the palettes from the Sprites portion of Palettes. Set if to -1 if you want the default. (Yay!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data 2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Misc Attributes: Not sure at the moment.
O. Frame Rate: The frame rate for the enemy; it works the way as the frame rate for the combos. What ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is unchecked.
E. Frame Rate: Same as above, except that ZC refers to this when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is checked.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flags
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
they're all self-explanatory, except remember this: Invisible is when you can't see the enemy, invulnerable is where an item has no effect in some way on that enemy, and invincible means having no weakness.

Hope this helps!

sps999

04-12-2007, 03:17 PM

Im Making A AquaMentus That Shoots Fire But All I Get Are The Lame Easy Things I Want To Get One Like:Octorok (L3 Slow). Also My Boulder (Bigger Falling Rock) Has Tiny And Wierd Pictures Of Random Junk.I Keep Lowering The Size But It Still Stays There. And One Last Question.Is There A Way To Get The Fire That Fire Gleoks Shoot Onto A Enemy.
Also I Found Out What Some Misc Do. Misc 1 Determions For Gleoks How Many Heads They Have And For AquaMentuses Misc One Will Make It Go On The Left Side Of The Room.

DarkFlameWolf

04-12-2007, 03:33 PM

I Also Don't Like When Someone Capitalizes Every Word In A Sentence!

Regardless, I'd like to know what the misc. attributes do on page 2.

Master_of_Power

04-12-2007, 04:12 PM

they WERE explained...

DarkFlameWolf

04-12-2007, 04:21 PM

must have an old version since they all just read: Misc 1, Misc 2, Misc 3, etc.

Brandon

04-12-2007, 05:29 PM

http://www.armageddongames.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96008
A few topics above this one. Has most of the misc data explained. Hoping it's cleaned up a little in Zquest though.

_L_

04-12-2007, 10:03 PM

Petoe

04-12-2007, 10:38 PM

Don't forget that the "new" enemy editor that I'm still working on isn't going to be backwards-compatable with custom enemies made prior to it. Unfortunately, this is the price of progress! (More specifically, the price of custom death animations, multiple projectile-firing options and other such stuff.)

Awesome news... now Lost Isle is ruined, unless one very friendly developer will help out and fix som beta 254 bugs so that the quest would play perfectly.
_L_, Thanks alot you evil evil bastardo. You just couldn't at least release beta 18 before making all your goddamn changes? I wanted to believe something good would come out of ZC, but I should have just done what Freedom did and forget about ZC when you started ruining ZC... :(

Majora

04-12-2007, 10:44 PM

Petoe

04-12-2007, 10:47 PM

Jesus man, calm down! I'm sure that it can be salvaged. Unless ALL your enemies are custom (or something similar that would be affected by the enemy editor DIRECTLY), you shouldn't get all worked up and pissed off. :shakeno::poke::shrug:

*waits for Peteo to flame the crap outta me*

Ok, I'm an emotional guy and maybe I overreacted and did go a bit too far, but really, why did it take so long for him to announce that the old custom enemies won't work in the new build? Yeah yeah i know these are betas and things constantly change, but I've been politely asking if the developers would make sure Beta18 would be compatible with b254 so that all my work on LI wouldn't go to waste.

I just wonder what else won't be backwards compatible than the custom enemies... and I'm not gonna apologize unless I misunderstood _L_'s post somehow or if he (or someone else) will release beta 18 that is backwards compatible with b254. Otherwise I've got shitloads of things to fix in the quest, and since I don't have much time to work on LI anymore, it would mean it would never get released. I think that's good enough reason for my frustration...

DarkFlameWolf

04-12-2007, 11:41 PM

And he's got a lot of custom enemies already implemented too deep into the quest to simply take out now. So its kinda make or break for LI just based on betas alone. Beta 254 seems to be quite stable for Lost Isle to play on, but Petoe has the specifics on what needs fixing currently to make it perfectly playable. So maybe a willing dev might step in to assist Petoe with this project so that this 2 year quest doesn't get tossed into the can.

Pineconn

04-13-2007, 12:11 AM

AH! I've been waiting for the release of LI since it was first announced! No need for a cancellation. I'm sure--what was it... ah-- "one very friendly developer" will be able to salvage it.

And, no need to pull a Freedom, either. Y'know, Freedom signed the QDB petition, so he has obviously not completely abandoned ZC.

And a piece of friendly advice for devs: Zelda Classic should be a project for the fans made by the devs, not a project for the devs made by the devs.

AmazingAmpharos

04-13-2007, 12:33 AM

Is the new enemy editor really going to be in the next build? I haven't seen that announcement, and he's always said that whenever it's finished that the old enemy editor stuff will be reset. Unless I completely misunderstand how it will work, it will probably still have stuff like e203 as an enemy in room 21 on map 12 so it would just be going through and reassigning attributes and stats which, while tedious, shouldn't completely ruin you. From what I gather, most of this forum is looking forward to said quest too so, if you don't have the time, I'm sure you could find someone to do the mildly tedious task of going through and manually converting your custom enemies just by comparing the b254 version to the whatever build version. It's mindless work so I think you could trust it to someone else.

I suppose it should also be asked exactly what is getting reset with the new enemy editor. Misc. Attributes are an obvious thing, but would stuff like step count and HP go as well? Most importantly for someone looking to convert an old quest, are the custom enemy names going to be retained? If that alone is retained, even converting a massive epic quest to the new editor could be done in under 2 hours, and that's assuming you have to change the stats on hundreds of enemies which is very unlikely for a two-year-old quest. While I know it's hard to get excited over "just" a few hours of tedious work, I don't think that's the end of the road for a quest that had been in development for a few years. If I'm completely misunderstanding how this will work, my post is void I guess.

Pineconn

04-13-2007, 01:09 AM

Plus, it's not like you have to use custom enemies. :shrug: I mean, take MMDWR and IotW: two great quests, but they (of course) use regular enemies.

Ah well, we learn from our mistakes. Next time, let's release far fewer, more stable betas for 2.6 or whatever.

4matsy

04-13-2007, 01:25 AM

but really, why did it take so long for him to announce that the old custom enemies won't work in the new build?

and he's always said that whenever it's finished that the old enemy editor stuff will be reset.

Indeed. This (http://www.armageddongames.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96042) 2-and-a-half-month-old thread says:

...so it's likely that your Enemies will revert to the defaults in a coming build. Just so you know.

And there's NO way to convert the current custom enemies to the new format?

Not unless you guys want to change all the Misc. Attributes for all of the enemies in your quests by hand...

Incidentally: my custom enemy changes aren't going into the builds until they're all done. So, your quest's custom enemies aren't going to be erased yet.

...I stopped messing around with custom enemies when I saw the thread title, really. :p

...Then again, I have to wonder if this idea didn't work out...

Well, okay, maybe I could make a routine wherein it takes the old enemies and automatically reassigns their types and misc attributes based on their misc10 and their enemy type... I'm just not entirely sure how complex it will get. Apart from changing the meanings of misc. attributes and shortening the number of types, I've also fixed some default data bugs (such as Darknuts being immune to hammers.)

...actually, now that I've written it down, it doesn't sound as difficult as I thought.

Nimono

04-13-2007, 01:41 AM

I beginning to think that _L_'s not listening to what the fanbase wants, but instead what HE wants. I bet he won't even TRY to get backwards-compatibility with older custom enemies if it means more work he doesn't want to do.

_L_, PLEASE listen to us. Either make backwards-compatibility with custom enemies from previous betas/builds, or just drop the whole thing altogether! (Or maybe I'll just have to go in that code myself to get that darned backwards compatibility! I mean, if you won't do it, someone else should!)

_L_

04-13-2007, 03:56 AM

Oh... very well, then. It seems that once again my hand has been stayed. Evidently I have been too long in producing these changes. Thus, I must add backwards-compatability.

But in my defense, here is my reasoning: the "current" enemy editor only really allows you to edit six numbers, the projectile, the item drop, and the enemy's sprite. Nearly all of the copious Flags are useless, and the Misc. Attributes (http://www.armageddongames.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96008) are so tremendously limited in their possibilities. I was under the assumption that any custom enemies produced under such limitations would thus be easily and quickly reproducible under a new system. But... I suppose I'd be too greedy to ask that of ZC's beta testers.

I humbly apologise.

Petoe

04-13-2007, 04:28 AM

Let's just say I were to move my quest to use the new build with this new enemy editor. What would happen to my current custom enemies that were made with the b254 enemy editor? Would they all get erased/completely reseted, or would only their misc attributes get reseted? If I have set custom enemies to a screen, would they disappear from the screen? What exactly would happen?

But whatever the case is, it still doesn't feel right that you just do stuff behind everyone's back and try to make ZC the way you want it to be, not the way us quest developers want it to be. :(
And in this custom enemy case you could have at least warned people that after b254 all your custom enemies will go useless. I really was in the belief that Beta18 would be backwards compatible with b254, and then suddenly I see all these changes to the next upcoming build and learn that my custom enemies won't work anymore. But I'm positively surprised that you said you would add backwards-compatibility. Though I don't think that would be necessary if you could somehow remove/hold back all your recent additions from the upcoming build/Beta 18 and that way making the next few versions compatible with the best build ever, b254. After that I really don't care what happens.

And to prevent any confusion I'll sum up my thoughts once again about all the new features and ZC developement:
_L_'s ideas are mostly great and this new enemy editor sounds kick arse, but not for ZC 2.5. I know, it's the same old song that everyone has heard from me and Freedom, but what would be best for ZC would be to stop with all the new features and just get b254 (or whatever good beta) fixed. Why don't any of the developers realize that it has been too long without a full stable ZC. We were so close to it somewhere around christmas, but then _L_ went crazy with all his additions. Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with his additions, but the community needs a full stable ZC before all these cool new features. Sigh. Right now the developement is in a never ending cycle...
let's fix these few bugs, yeah, now ZC is almost stable!
Oh wait, let's add these few little changes, oops, more bugs were born!
Repeat...

_L_

04-13-2007, 04:46 AM

DarkFlameWolf

04-13-2007, 08:45 AM

So exactly how much time would that be invested to re-creating the enemies if say we had oh.....15 custom enemies already? Would this new enemy editor changes/fixes also bring back the mirror robe's ability to get killed by its own magic when reflected by mirrors OTHER than the mirror shield?

Nicholas Steel

04-13-2007, 10:23 AM

But whatever the case is, it still doesn't feel right that you just do stuff behind everyone's back and try to make ZC the way you want it to be, not the way us quest developers want it to be. :(
And in this custom enemy case you could have at least warned people that after b254 all your custom enemies will go useless. I really was in the belief that Beta18 would be backwards compatible with b254, and then suddenly I see all these changes to the next upcoming build and learn that my custom enemies won't work anymore. But I'm positively surprised that you said you would add backwards-compatibility. Though I don't think that would be necessary if you could somehow remove/hold back all your recent additions from the upcoming build/Beta 18 and that way making the next few versions compatible with the best build ever, b254. After that I really don't care what happens.

read the stick'ies, and documentation, they clearly say
WARNING: THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC ALPHA BUILD
It is work in progress, released without careful inspection by the developers. It may be unstable, contain missing, partially implemented, or broken features, or corrupt your quests. Active development of quests on this build is not recommended.

***THE DEVELOPERS TAKE NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR ANY DAMAGE THAT THIS BUILD MIGHT DO TO YOUR COMPUTER OR YOUR QUESTS.***
you went against developer's advice and now your whinging that your quest is screwed. as such your case is i think different to freedom's.

YOU are blaming the developer's when it's the developer's that should be blaming YOU.

EDIT: i also would love to play LI, but i am just saying that you are IMHO being way too harsh towards the developer's.

Petoe

04-13-2007, 10:28 AM

Wolfie it doesn't matter how much time it takes. It takes a lot of time in any case if all the enemies in the quest go to default and I have to set all the enmies up again and place them on screen. I have literally hundreds of custom enemies all around LI already, so it's either backwards compatibilty for Beta 18 (which seems to be possible because _L_ mentioned it) or then some friendly developer to come and help us get a LI specific beta done.

All would be well if _L_ would just ask people first what to do... or even warn them that "oh by the way, there's going to be a new enemy editor in the next build so beware!!!"
But no... With a few bug fixes b254 could have became a great Beta 18. But the devs just had to get all those changes in there and there's still no sign of a new build... >_<
I really want to release Lost Isle before this summer, but this custom enemy issue doesn't help amtters at all. Since the custom enemies work perfectly in b254 (no matter how limited they might be for _L_) why such a rush to get that new enemy editor in?

Petoe

04-13-2007, 10:37 AM

YOU are blaming the developer's when it's the developer's that should be blaming YOU.
Heh. Well I've never denied that I'm a stupid prick, and yes, part of the blame is on me but even though you prbably can't put yourself into my position, at least try:

I want to get LI released before it's too late (soon I will have not much time for ZC).
Here we have a great beta, b254 and it has a great and perfectly working enemy editor. I realize the risks fiddling with an unfinished feature, but it was stable and good enough to make enemies on. And since the developers have hinted that a Beta 18 release is near and I've been asking/sugesting constantly that Beta 18 would be compatible with b254 quests and by the responses I got I understood that only small fixes will be made and a beta 18 should be ready, therefore how could have I expected that _L_ just goes and adds and changes shitloads of stuff right after b254 release and therefore ruins b254 quests?
I HAVE seen these warnings about the possibility of these current custom enemies not probably working on some upcoming builds, but why the fuck had _L_ ruin the backwards compatibilty so fast and without even warning?

EDIt - and can anyone really deny that me and Freedom have been right the whole time? There just will never be a full stable 2.5 if things continue to go like this. My posts may seem selfish and Li centered, but believe me, every time I whine I have the best interest of ZC in my mind. I can't help it, I've become too attached to ZC and it kills me to see how the developers are killing a great thing (and it doesn't help that AGN can't get shit done about the main site...)

Pineconn

04-13-2007, 01:48 PM

EDIT - and can anyone really deny that me and Freedom have been right the whole time? There just will never be a full stable 2.5 if things continue to go like this. My posts may seem selfish and LI centered, but believe me, every time I whine I have the best interest of ZC in my mind. I can't help it, I've become too attached to ZC and it kills me to see how the developers are killing a great thing

I can definitely not deny you. I think that there is plenty enough in 2.5. Save everything else for a future beta. If you put everything in 2.5, there won't be anything to put in the next one, and it would therefore be boring. I personally would have been more than elated if a Dialogue Editor, the FFCs, the room state carryover, and maybe a few other minor features (like a fixation of 2.10's conveyors) would have been bundled into 2.11/2.5. I was overwhelmed when multiple tile warps were introduced. Now there are custom enemies, custom items, SCRIPTING... I feel that I need to take a few classes of C++ in order to keep up with everyone. And boss flag triggers were hard enough to learn.

So, I echo many people by saying: Do not add any more features to ZC. If you do, 2.5 will never get done. Set a reasonable release date, and let us beta test ZC for bugs and backwards-compatibility issues.

splattergnome

04-13-2007, 04:11 PM

beefster09

04-13-2007, 05:59 PM

Exactly! Let _L_ do his own thing. Remember his list? That's all he'll be doing after updating the editors.

Please, before you beat _L_ with sticks, think: would you rather just have ZC released now, despite all of the incomplete code and bugs? He's pretty much the only dev that's active in actually working on ZC most of the time. If it weren't for him, it would take at least 3x longer to get 2.5 out! In other words, you can either leave _L_ to his work or wait until Christmas 2008. From the way I see it 2.5 should be out by the end of September unless you keep bludgeoning _L_ to frustration.

Master_of_Power

04-13-2007, 06:00 PM

-L- is not at fault, Peteo, and he's definitly not ruining anything, Zelda Classic may have quite a few bugs, but it comes with the territory. Considering this is, infact, a free program, the developers are spending they're free time on it, and you should be glad that this program is around, and that they are putting such time and effort into that. Stop whining, or buy a professional program you need to waste 3 years to fully understand. Theres my two cents.

Pineconn

04-13-2007, 06:38 PM

EDIT: And just think, the more complicated, the more difficult it would be to revise the built-in tutorial! ;) Which really needs to happen.

Okay. Stop the [albeit] minor flaming. Petoe has his right of frustration, _L_ has his right of freedom. End.

~Back to the Topic~

That really did help with the custom enemy making. I made a stupid green Keese that moved about 1 mph! :p

Petoe

04-13-2007, 10:22 PM

Since betas were always meant to help discover bugs and solicitate feedback from users on new functions, I think that -L- did no wrong when changing in-progress systems in order to add new functionality and flexibility which will benefit the program and future quests.

I agree that it's not wrong what _L_ did, but what's wrong is the way HOW he did it and WHEN he did it. Once again, what happened to beta 18? Why did he had to go on in insane mode again and change craploads of stuff before a new Beta release? Was it really so hard to udnerstand that since b254 is so stable that maybe some people who are tired of waiting are actually building quests with it? I guess you all think that quest developement should just stop during beta testing? Well if that's the case, when will we see any new quests? Sigh.

I'm stupid for trusting the devs and building Lost Isle with the current betas, but what else could I have done? Wait for 2.5 and then continue building the quest? Well I don't feel like delaying the quest indefinitely so I had to use the betas/builds to build the quest as the developers are not cacapable of getting out a stable ZC release.

All you smartasses who tell me to shut up: It's oh so easy for you who build no quests for ZC to spit out such comments. Yeah, thanks to _L_ there are many new features, but thanks to _L_ there never will probably be a ZC 2.5. I know I'm not going to be popular by constantly bashing him (though I've never been popular :P ) what else can I do? I guess nothing. It's very nice to see that finally some people are starting to see what me and Freedom sees, but I guess that's not enough.

Unless this madness with ZC doesn't stop, I'm officially done as a ZC beta tester and as a quest developer. I will try to get LI released no matter what, that's a promise, but oh boy it won't be easy, lol.
If _L_ is really being such a good sport that he is going to make the new builds backwards compatible, then I guess there will be no problems, though I really cannot ask or demand anything like that from him no matter how disappointed I am with him. Oh well, we'll see what happens.

Freedom

04-13-2007, 10:43 PM

Gee Whiz, I haven't graced these boards since

Last Activity: 01-21-2007 11:25 pm
Now all you noob wannabee's want to rag the Petoe for telling the truth.
The truth is Zelda Classic used to be a cool free program, but now that "L" has started on it, it's way over priced at free.

TIME is money, and completely redoing progress you've made in a quest because some guy wants to feed his ego by having noobs tell him how cool he is for overstuffing an already unworkable program with bloat, is TIME.

What do you noobs know about spending a year or more on a quest only to have it destroyed by a guy who could care less what the people who USE the program think?

What do you noobs know about waiting SEVERAL YEARS for a stable release, and then being promised one last year, only to realize your quest has been destroyed and a stable release is STILL a year away IF IT EVER COMES?

Petoe needs to speak his mind, it's you noobs that need to STFU.
The truth is... Petoe has forgotten more about the program than you noobs have ever learned.

Defend "L" and it will ALWAYS be this way, and you will NEVER see a program worth wasting you time with.

Thank God I've found more worthwhile things to do with my time, and the more time I spend away from here, the clearer it becomes, that it will never change, and there will never be a Zelda Classic program that is really worthy of anyone investing any serious time in building quests with.

Pineconn

04-13-2007, 10:44 PM

Petoe. Or Peteo. Depends what mood you're in.

You are one of the best quest makers and one of my "idols" when I was a... new bud at quest designing. I played through Mega Man and was in freaking awe when I saw some of your tricks. Same with IotW, same with Link to Tortuga, same with Hero of Dreams (though it's newer), etc, etc. There aren't too many quality quest makers out there. I was (for lack of a better word) devastated when Freedom left, and expect the same if you leave.

Now, being a fairly rational person, I can see it in your and Freedom's way, but also in _L_'s way. I agree that 2.5 will never be released with all these features, which leads to bugs that we may never predict; I agree that it's great that we have all these features.

According to _L_'s checklist, there aren't too many more things to add. And they seem to be easy (in a dev's POV) to implement. So I say let's allow the dev(s) to finish off with these features. Then, we can beta test the crap out of the programs so that we don't get another buggy release (cough, 2.10).

Would you look at that, Freedom is viewing this thread.

EDIT: Would you look at that, Freedom beat me to posting. :D

EDIT 2:

What do you noobs know about waiting SEVERAL YEARS for a stable release, and then being promised one last year, only to realize your quest has been destroyed and a stable release is STILL a year away IF IT EVER COMES?

I felt the same way about Twilight Princess. Oh, I hope it isn't too early for brazen humor.

The truth is... Petoe has forgotten more about the program than you noobs have ever learned.

(I don't remember who said this, but...) Quoted for truth. That sum's it up perfectly. I feel that Zelda Classic is no longer classic.

Petoe

04-13-2007, 11:28 PM

Well I guess I don't have to post here anymore as Freedom's post said it all I have wanted to say...

Freedom is a respectable ZC veteran and more people should listen to him. he really knows what he is talking about.

And Pineconn, believe me, I don't wanna abandon ZC and all the great fans, ZC is my favorite hobby and I'm a creative person and feel ZC is the best way to express myself. But what can I do if this inanity will not stop? AS I said, LI will get released, that's a promise, but after that, I don't know what to do really... we'll see what _L_ does I guess...

beefster09

04-13-2007, 11:42 PM

Freedom

04-13-2007, 11:55 PM

Let me clarify that I am defending both sides of this issue. I want to get my money's worth. (despite the fact that ZC is free) I like that _L_ is adding the features I always wanted way back when, (over 2 years ago) I remember the days of the 184 player, (in fact I didn't use 2.10 after I found out how buggy it was) and about a year later, out comes b10. If you think of where it started bugwise, there have been a lot of bugfixes. You'd be surprised how little harm _L_ is actually doing. I like stability too, and you'd probably be amazed of how many bugs _L_ has fixed. (although DN probably fixed the most bugs out of all the devs, despite him being the oldest dev) _L_'s the second-newest dev. Every dev has made their own fair share of improvements and bugfixes. I can truly see 2.5 released by September 30. I can think of it as my birthday present. I really don't mind the fact that the updates and whatnot are taking so long because the devs must devote their free time to work on ZC.

I have to re-iterate:

If you don't like where ZC is going, use an older version! There's no point in complaining about features you wont use. If you don't like it, dont use it! You can either deal with it or pointlessly whine. Or you can enjoy what you already have. If you bludgeon _L_ he'll just get unmotivated leading to an unfinished ZC.

I remember a while back when I said that I bet that nobody could say anything constructive. Well, everyone's attempts failed except mine, ST's, pikaguy500's, (I think) and even Revfan's. (I think)

Some philosopher (or someone) said that for every destructive criticism, you need 5 constructive criticisms. You better get to apologizing, guys!

EDIT: Has anyone noticed that _L_ has sat out the debate for the last 10 or so posts? I think you scared him away.

Yea well, ride that fence for all it's worth, you'll be coming down off of it soon enough.
This is the exact same discussion that was going when I left 3 months ago, and it will be the same again when I look back in 3 months from now.

IF they would release a stable bug free version, these conversations would NOT be taking place, the point is there ISN'T a version worth building a quest in.
192b182 the debug keys were in there.
192b183 the map crash
192b184 the boss enemies
2.10 the shop bug.
EVERY one of those versions gave players serious problems.
2.11b10b was the best of all of those up to that point, and it COULD have been fine tuned and released, instead they went back the other way and destroyed the quests that would work in that version.

NOBODY has ever complained about the progress, it's not having a stable version available that people have complained about.
GET a stable version, THEN add more with the builds, DON'T just keep adding bloat to something that doesn't work already.
Has common sense just left the building, or what?

Nimono

04-13-2007, 11:57 PM

Let me clarify that I am defending both sides of this issue. I want to get my money's worth. (despite the fact that ZC is free) I like that _L_ is adding the features I always wanted way back when, (over 2 years ago) I remember the days of the 184 player, (in fact I didn't use 2.10 after I found out how buggy it was) and about a year later, out comes b10. If you think of where it started bugwise, there have been a lot of bugfixes. You'd be surprised how little harm _L_ is actually doing. I like stability too, and you'd probably be amazed of how many bugs _L_ has fixed. (although DN probably fixed the most bugs out of all the devs, despite him being the oldest dev) _L_'s the second-newest dev. Every dev has made their own fair share of improvements and bugfixes. I can truly see 2.5 released by September 30. I can think of it as my birthday present. I really don't mind the fact that the updates and whatnot are taking so long because the devs must devote their free time to work on ZC.

I have to re-iterate:

If you don't like where ZC is going, use an older version! There's no point in complaining about features you wont use. If you don't like it, dont use it! You can either deal with it or pointlessly whine. Or you can enjoy what you already have. If you bludgeon _L_ he'll just get unmotivated leading to an unfinished ZC.

I remember a while back when I said that I bet that nobody could say anything constructive. Well, everyone's attempts failed except mine, ST's, pikaguy500's, (I think) and even Revfan's. (I think)

Some philosopher (or someone) said that for every destructive criticism, you need 5 constructive criticisms. You better get to apologizing, guys!

EDIT: Has anyone noticed that _L_ has sat out the debate for the last 10 or so posts? I think you scared him away.

It's "pikaguy900". ;)

But yeah... Quoted for awesomeness.... That is... I'm kinda surprised anyone has the guts to go up against Freedom... I've seen what he's like....

The way I see it is this:

_L_ wants to combine certain enemy types together as one so people can have more customization and to make things a bit easier in making custom enemies, right? Yet isn't this what he said was gonna keep him from maintaining backwards-compatibility? If so, then here's the oh-so-obvious solution:

Get _L_ to return the enemy editor back to the way it was, when nearly every enemy type was seperate from the rest.

I don't really see the point in combining them all much. Also, I was under the impression that backwards-compatibility HAD to be maintained bewteen versions, whether full releases or not.

Now, uh... That's the against-_L_ part, now for the semi-against-Peteo part.

Here's a suggestion, Peteo & DFW (And I'm being totally honest here): If _L_ DOES go through with his ideas and breaks backwards-compatibility with older custom enemies and thus, breaks the custom enemies in LI, why not look for someone who wouldn't mind setting the enemies back up for you? Like, say... Me? I've got PLENTY of time on my hands, and I honestly wouldn't mind setting them back up for you if _L_ breaks them. 'Sides, it's the least I can do if I can't find some way to get _L_ to stop his madness. ;)

There's my two cents. I'm neutral here. I don't like that _L_ plans to break custom enemies from previous betas JUST so his plans can be finished, but yet, I think that if Peteo and DFW don't have the time to fix up all the enemies, they can always ask someone who DOES have the time (like me) to do all that for them. See? There's almost always a solution. :)

Pineconn

04-14-2007, 12:15 AM

(For the record, I'm neutral too. Luckily I didn't start making a quest since I have my 2.10 quest to finish.)

I've got PLENTY of time on my hands...

You are so lucky. ;)

2.10 the shop bug.

Oh, and you can't forget about the "Map->Secrets" glitch. How nasty that one is.

And Pineconn, believe me, I don't wanna abandon ZC and all the great fans, ZC is my favorite hobby and I'm a creative person and feel ZC is the best way to express myself. But what can I do if this inanity will not stop? AS I said, LI will get released, that's a promise, but after that, I don't know what to do really... we'll see what _L_ does I guess...

I'm glad that you'd be reluctant to... leave. And that LI will come out.

Has anyone noticed that _L_ has sat out the debate for the last 10 or so posts? I think you scared him away.

I have a feeling that he might be making some major changes to 2.5, either "good" or "bad."

(Hm, I suppose I could have organized that jumble of quotes... Mm, nah.)

Nimono

04-14-2007, 12:23 AM

You are so lucky. ;)

For my response to this, I'll quote the terrible CD-i Zelda game, "The Faces of Evil".

You've GOT to be kidding.

I have plenty of time on my hands, but 'tis true, I have things to do, also... Mainly at the whim of my parents, though. >_>

All who vote for getting rid of _L_, say "pancakes"! :p

(...I'm not gonna say it. I say, give the guy a few more chances...)

Pineconn

04-14-2007, 12:47 AM

Well, then you're lucky you don't have my teachers. I have to make a bumper sticker, a T-shirt, a button, and a poster along with 8 100-word essays for a teacher. Due Tuesday. (Well, it was assigned a little bit ago.)

Argh, CD-i! You actually played a CD-i Zelda game?! ...I am very sorry. :(

Yeah, devs actually are pretty under-appreciated. I think _L_ just got a little too carried away. No biiiig deal. (That last sentence may be controversial. Great, now I'm like Imus. :p)

The_Amaster

04-14-2007, 12:55 AM

It's all about the tradeoff. Freedom, Petoe, and people like you: think about it. If we release 2.5 now we may have saved a few months, but than are you willing to wait the possibly 2 years or more for the next version of ZC, if the past is any experiance. I am just as impatiant as you, and that's why I want this, so that the next version with all the as of yet non-implemented features I want isn't years off.

I would like to resuggest at this point my idea of "1 feature" builds, where 2.6 has a feature or two and is completely stable, 2.7 has a few more, etc.

Back on topic, L, did you say most of the flags were going away, or obsoleting, or somthing. Only some of them(especially the "invulnerable from [dir]" ones) I was planning on using for making really cool custom bosses(Once we have larger enemies, of course)

Petoe

04-14-2007, 01:11 AM

It's all about the tradeoff. Freedom, Petoe, and people like you: think about it. If we release 2.5 now we may have saved a few months, but than are you willing to wait the possibly 2 years or more for the next version of ZC,

May have saved a few months? :) You gotta be kidding me with that comment, right? Unbeliveable...

And yes, if 2.5 would be released now, or would have been released around Christmas as it was supposed to, I would happily wait even more than 2 years for that next stable ZC. At least we would have a stable ZC, right now we don't have anything to be happy about. Why it is so hard for you non-quest develoeprs to understand it's much easier and desirable to work on a stable and bugfree environment than in a buggy and unstable one?

Even though some seem to understand me, it feels like I'm talking to a wall/walls here. Where's all the logic in your posts, guys?

Anyways, all this arguing is going nowhere. I've said all I have to say and now I'll just sit and watch what the develoeprs are gonna do. I'm hoping they would do the right thing, but that's most likely wishful thinking... ... ...

Pineconn

04-14-2007, 01:22 AM

Though I may be considered to be quite gassy at the moment (metaphorically speaking), I have a feeling that 2.5 may be "finished" within a few months. (If anyone quotes me on that, I'll kill ya. :tongue: (Yeah, not really.) The more people that beta test, the sooner it will get "done."

Even though some seem to understand me, it feels like I'm talking to a wall/walls here. Where's all the logic in your posts, guys?

I've let ZQuest run, and it does not crash randomly like 2.10's editor does (to me). Now, I am curious to why you think 2.5 cannot be stable. Bugs? They can be sorted out. Too many features being added too quickly? As long as _L_ stays true to his words (view his checklist), this will stop. I would like to reiterate that I am not disagreeing with you; I'm very neutral.

Majora

04-14-2007, 09:32 AM

This only applies if only you (Petoe) and DFW are the only ones actually working on Lost Isle:

Only 2 people (as far as I know) working on LI? That's like Nintendo putting 2 people to work on OoT. Sure it can be done but The frustrations will be greater because not only will everything take longer, but any little mishaps will be amplified greatly. I have a feeling that if from the beginning, you had say, 5-6 people total, your {insert synonym of "Complaints" here} would be less frequent and less desperate (for a stable ZC) sounding.

Now, I am neutral, but I'm trying to put some logic out there (although I'm probably failing at it). I am defending the program's (and the Devs too I guess) integrity. Remember the topic I made entitled "The Betas are slowly getting worse for some reason..."? Take a look at that thread, and then take a look at this one. It's the exact same thing: Someone is concerned with ZC so he makes a thread about it. Granted the circumstances of the creation of this thread were different, but in the end, it's still the same. Peteo came in here and said "Stop all this (feature adding/changing) madness!" and basically turned this topic into what I made.

I'll finish this post later cuz I gotta go.

sps999

04-14-2007, 09:58 AM

How Can You Tell The Enemy ID. I Want To Make A Wizzrobe That Spawns One Of My Custom Enemys (Floor Master) But I Dont Know His ID Number.:eek: :cry: :toast: :scared:

Luigi

04-14-2007, 10:19 AM

How Can You Tell The Enemy ID. I Want To Make A Wizzrobe That Spawns One Of My Custom Enemys (Floor Master) But I Dont Know His ID Number.:eek: :cry: :toast: :scared:

Enemy ID's are contained within std.zh.

beefster09

04-14-2007, 11:43 AM

As crazy as _L_ is driving ZC, you guys have to remember that he's really the only diligent dev right now. Let him make signpost combos and call it ZC 2.40. I'm pretty happy with the features right now. I want a stable ZC just as much as anyone else.

_L_, just for the sake of pleasing everyone, finish signpost combos and call it a day. AND DON'T FORGET TO FIX THE BUGS!

_L_, how many bugs have you fixed?
I choose to be on both sides by defending _L_ and pleasing everyone at the same time. It's not impossible.

BTW: Has the custom Moldorm bug been fixed?

sps999

04-14-2007, 11:49 AM

Thanks Luigi But What Does std.zh. And How Do You Tell What That Is,Sorry.

Luigi

04-14-2007, 04:35 PM

Thanks Luigi But What Does std.zh. And How Do You Tell What That Is,Sorry.

You only need std.zh if you intend to make a script.

Nicholas Steel

04-14-2007, 05:59 PM

Only 2 people (as far as I know) working on LI? That's like Nintendo putting 2 people to work on OoT. Sure it can be done but The frustrations will be greater because not only will everything take longer, but any little mishaps will be amplified greatly. I have a feeling that if from the beginning, you had say, 5-6 people total, your {insert synonym of "Complaints" here} would be less frequent and less desperate (for a stable ZC) sounding.
they were pretty much asking for help from the get go imho.

Pineconn

04-14-2007, 06:14 PM

Not really. At least over here at AGN, they've been pretty silent about it. I don't know about PureZC. And that's all I know.

Nicholas Steel

04-14-2007, 10:24 PM

well, they asked people to PM them if there interested in building/designing parts of LI and they ask for help in music and the credits, i wouldnt exactly call this being silent at AGN....

Pineconn

04-14-2007, 10:37 PM

I never knew that. :shrug:

sps999

04-15-2007, 09:55 AM

You only need std.zh if you intend to make a script.

So Youre Saying My Floor Master Cant Be Spawned By My Wizzrobe Unless I Start Scripting:shakeno:

ShadowTiger

04-15-2007, 10:08 AM

I think it could actually work. :shrug: I mean down to the very last drop, except for one thing. I'm not sure if you can combine the properties of the zooming (Towards you) Rope, and the Grabbing/Holding Like Like in one enemies. It may be either-or. (Though Do NOT quote me on that. It's only a hunch. I hope to dear god that I'm wrong, because _L_ is a bloody genius with his work.)

To make a Summoner enemy summon things, place the enemies he'll summon on the layers of that screen. That's how it works by default now, at least. Then, you can create a new floormaster enemy which splits into a different enemy. (Place their ID in the misc box, as directed in one of the pinned threads up there.) Then give that little floormaster enemy all the properties you'd like, and you're set.

sps999

04-15-2007, 10:19 AM

Shadowtiger I Know How To Do All That But The Problem Is I Cant Find The ID Number. Does It Go By Like How You Can Have 255 Or Something Enemys So If I Use Say Custom Enemy Number 172 Will His ID Number Be 172? Terribly Sorry Im New At Builds.

Sir Bob

04-20-2007, 10:54 AM

This is actually a suggestion for a miscellaneous option for enemies. How bout when attacked by a it slows Link down. I looked at the sticky, and no "slows link down" option was in there.

DarkFlameWolf

04-20-2007, 01:01 PM

Medusa, that zooms at you like a rope, but freezes your movement for a second or two like a redead.

_L_

04-20-2007, 11:50 PM

I think it could actually work. :shrug: I mean down to the very last drop, except for one thing. I'm not sure if you can combine the properties of the zooming (Towards you) Rope, and the Grabbing/Holding Like Like in one enemies. It may be either-or.

Well, look for yourself. (http://www.armageddongames.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97010) A Walking Enemy can have both a Movement Pattern and a Touch Effect. The Rope's dashing is a Movement Pattern, and the Like Like's engulfing is a Touch Effect. (Admittedly I forgot to list the Like Like's engulfing until two minutes ago, but there it is.)

The_Amaster

04-21-2007, 09:05 PM

Fah-weeet.(Try saying this phoneticly, and it makes more sense.)
I'm telling you, add larger enemies, and we will usher in an era of custom bosses the likes of which the world has never seen. For that matter, we can now make Rupee-Likes from MC. Ohh, or Magic-Likes. What about Equip-Likes. How'd ya like to lose you're Roc's Feather and Master Sword. Umm...on second thought, that may not be such a good idea. L, does another Misc. Att. specify which equipment it engulfs? If not, hwo do Like-Likes go after only Shields?

_L_

04-22-2007, 04:39 AM

I added an Edible flag to item data. Like Likes will try to remove all edible items when they devour you. (The precedent for this is in OoT, where both tunics and shields can be eaten.)

Majora

04-22-2007, 09:11 AM

Edible Heart Containers!!!!! :mischief::mischief::evil::evil:

ShadowTiger

04-22-2007, 10:07 AM

Bastard! :blah:

I added an Edible flag to item data. Like Likes will try to remove all edible items when they devour you. (The precedent for this is in OoT, where both tunics and shields can be eaten.)So right now, this operates by a means of "ALL edible items are eaten in one go" sort of system. There's no "Most recently acquired edible item is eaten" or "One random edible item is eaten?"

I suppose the theory is that it'll simply digest them all in one go. You could also then make the argument that Link's pitiful hylian flesh is stronger than the magical properties of his ironwood shield, but not stronger than the weaker of the shields. :blah:

The_Amaster

04-22-2007, 10:18 AM

So "edible" is item specific, not family based? So I could make it so that the Mirror Shield is inedible? Cool.

Perhaps Like-Likes have special "magic" devouring acid, that ignores all normal organic matter?

ShadowTiger

04-22-2007, 10:48 AM

Then Hylians would be farming them for this acid and using them in potions and Molotov cocktails and acid bombs.

Perhaps that's one reason why they're so rare. Then again, where are all my bombs, bytch? ... lol.

Acid bombs would be cool. We could probably script something like that, assuming we have custom counters affected by scripts. (And Custom Subscreen Elements affected by scripts.)

DarkFlameWolf

05-11-2007, 05:01 PM

The Regen Patra

Have two rings of bugs around it like a Patra 2 or 3, the inner ring, as usual isn't vulnerable until the outer is destroyed. For each inner patra bug you destroy, the outer ring regenerates, forcing you to destroy the outer again before going for the inner. Defeat both rings finally and the boss starts to regenerate its inner ring at a very slow rate. (like 1 inner bug per 10-15 seconds.) Its evil, I know.

ShadowTiger

05-11-2007, 06:29 PM

I'm actually more interested in the train of thought behind such a creation, DFW. :p What had inspired you to such a thing?

4matsy

05-11-2007, 11:21 PM

Speaking of inspiration...

*changes avatar*

:p

DarkFlameWolf

05-12-2007, 06:59 AM

that'd be about right Hypercrash. XD

Majora

05-12-2007, 10:27 AM

You're lookin at the Mini-Boss in the Final Level of my quest.

ON the subject of evil enemies, a Death Knight that is ONLY damaged by the candle flame, and shoots swords in 4 directions constantly.

The_Amaster

05-16-2007, 02:15 PM

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, so I thought I'd ask here, but to Tekites and Peahats use the Z axis now, or are they still the old "temporary invincibility" thing? Oh, and the "no jump" combo type doesn't seem to stop Tekites. Is that because it's for Roc's feather?

DarkFlameWolf

05-16-2007, 02:27 PM

the new X factor makes the tektites and Vires more annoying than ever. Its harder than hell to hit them now, probably because they are usually 'never' on your playing field for more than a second or two.

Gleeok

06-07-2007, 06:01 AM

Is there currently a way to give Diggdoger weapon abilities? I can't get the damn thing to do anything but float around and look pretty. It occured to me that THIS is the next best thing compared to the 2x2 enemies everyone wants to get their hands on. Actually, much better based on movement. I hope to further customize this badboy in the future, and already have pages of 2x2 tiles ripped, and waiting to tear link a new one.

...and L, how long is it gonna take to get a enemy ID list. Of course i'd like to know the ID of newly created enemies as well. I'm guessing your hard at work getting all this stuff ready for the next beta and all.

DarkDragon

06-07-2007, 11:05 AM

I'm not sure why this topic was dredged up, but let me make a few points perfectly clear:

1. We strive for compatibility when making new features. If a quest from a full public release (1.90, 1.92, 2.10, etc) no longer runs on the ZC player, that is a bug and will be fixed.
I am very sorry that some of you will have to remake your custom enemies, although doing so will luckily take a relatively small amount of time. However, though every effort will be made to ensure that builds do not break quests from older builds, no compatibility is guaranteed - with builds coming out as often as they do, we have to be allowed to change our minds if we add a feature only to realize later that we were smoking crack at the time. Moreover, some bugs, such as the recent spate of item property problems, simply cannot be automatically fixed without user intervention.
It's been said time and again, and is found in the text file that comes with all alpha builds, but alpha builds are intended to help us find bugs, NOT for quest building. Build quests on these builds AT YOUR OWN RISK. If you have been building quests on the builds, 99% of your quest still works perfectly. But you have entirely no grounds for complaining about the other 1%. If this misunderstanding persists, we will stop publishing alpha builds and beta testing will be closed to the general public.

2. You are welcome to vent frustration about the pace, scope, bugginess, etc. of ZC development in this forum; we are not fascists and we will listen to criticism. However, no further flaming of L or any other member will be tolerated. If you have a problem with a specific developer, I urge you to PM that developer or Dark Nation, the project lead.