Zelda Classic 2.11 Beta 16

[jman2050]

Another day, another new beta. Many of the bugs from beta 15 are still unfixed, but we're releasing this beta anyway to get a head start on the fixing of the new features. From here on out the only new features that should be appearing are the completed string editor and the ability to select any item in the subscreen. Unless DN plans something else, that should be it for new features. The rest is augmenting or fixing existing features. Also, for the new items listed below, they probably won't be listed if you have a newer beta quest because of the way custom items work. You'll have to emulate the item by putting in the appropriate data yourself. Anyway, have fun with this.

Windows:
Zelda Classic 2.11 beta 16 for Windows (FULL) (http://jman2050.armageddongames.net/ZCBeta/zc211b16w.zip)
Zelda Classic 2.11 beta 16b for Windows (FULL) (http://jman2050.armageddongames.net/ZCBeta/zc211b16bw.zip) - Fixes several crippling bugs both reported here and that i found on my own.
Zelda Classic 2.11 beta 16c for Windows (FULL) (http://jman2050.armageddongames.net/ZCBeta/zc211b16cw.zip) - Fixes more bugs and optimizes the scripting engine

Linux:
Coming soon.

OS X:
Coming soon.

Incomplete list of changes:

Fixed the Magic Shield bug
Link now has charging sprites
Disabling items actually works this time
Link can no longer move around when charging the hammer
Fixed spinning hammer bug
Fixed can't get items while charging bug
Hurricane Spin added
New items: Whisp Ring L1 and L2. L1 causes permanent bubble curses to be temporary, while L2 makes you immune to curses overall
Some ZASM fixes related to the Z variable
Fixed bug where some Link sprites wouldn't save properly
string editor is semi-complete. Normal strings should still work. Ask _L_ for all the options you can do *currently*
Added CLEARSPRITESR and CLEARSPRITESV to ZAsm and ClearSprites() to Zscript
Raft bug is fixed
Docks not working properly is fixed
Fixed the bug where chnging sfx data wouldn't allow you to save if that was the only change you made
Fixed bug where you could use the sword to change the hammer
Fixed bug with jumping in sideview gravity
New items: Peril Beam scroll, charge rings 1 and 2, and magic (infinite) versions of the bomb bag, quiver, and wallet
Fixed red potion always disappearing
Fixed freezing during Dmap intro
Tweaked hammer physics. Quest Rule: Slow Walk While Charging. Quest Rule: Book Magic Uses Magic (Fire) Sprite. Quest Rule: Wand Can\'t Be Used As Melee Weapon.
Work has begun on drowing Link. Not yet complete I think.
Sword jinx and Item jinx getters and setters added to ZAsm and ZScript
Fixed crash when there are no enemies for summoner to summon
Fixed shadows flickring even when quest rule is unchecked
Four-way ladder added. Kinda works
Fixed the script commands that return map, screen, or dmap numbers so they return integers intead of floats. Work done on the LINKCHARGING command.
Work has been started on script strings
Enemy Editor is a go I'll explain all the details of the enemy editor later, but for now this is what you need to know: Anything with an O. prefixed refers to its behavior WITHOUT the 'new enemy tiles' rule checked. Anything prefixed with an E. refers to behavior with the rule checked. The invulnerability and weakness flags DO NOT WORK. Enemy weaknesses are still hardcoded. Misc. Attributes refer to enemy specific attributes, and these values are different for each enemy. That'll be explained later. Finally, the animation styles are still being worked on, so it's HIGHLY RECOMMENDED that you do not change animation styles for a particular type of enemy.
Item code has been fixed to accomadate the custom items, for the most part. Still have some loose ends to tie up.
Weapons code tweaked a little
The dmap and level count has been upped to 512. This will no doubt please many of you.
Older quests now convert FFC changer combos to FFC changer flags
Quest Rule: Lens Sees Invisible Enemies.
Quest Rule: Can Select A-Button Weapon. Yes, the time for a selectable A-button slot has come. With this rule checked, the subscreen selector won't automatically equip the selected item - you must press either A or B to assign it to a slot.
Fixed charging tapping bug (unreported).
Fixed enemy tapping bug.
Fixed missing MISC: entries bug.
Fixed strings so that 0 can be used as an argument for control codes.
New items: Wealth Medal 1 (75% rate at shops), Wealth Medal 2 (50% at shops), Wealth Medal 3 (25% rate at shops).
New FFC flag: Script Restarts When Carried Over.
New FFC flag: Visible Only With Lens.
Here's another major one: Scripting Drawing Commands. They'll be explained in the scripting forum in a bit, but now with scripting you are able to draw primitives like rectangles, circles, and lines, as well as a group of tiles or combos, onto any layer, using any color, with full scaling and rotation. Head over to the scripting forum a little later to see what I mean :P

Please Verify Quarantined Bugs
I think save games from b15 will work, but just in case, back them up!
BACK UP YOUR QUESTS BEFORE YOU USE THIS ON THEM!

[koopa]

Disabling items should work (only for items you cast via A/B. They remain visible in the subscreen even while inactive and Link tile mods don't change back either)

Manual for Item and Enemy Editors will follow soon.

[Revfan9]

Script drawing functions...

...I love you. In a heterosexual sort of way.

[*b*]

The dmap and level count has been upped to 512. This will no doubt please many of you.


Oh yeah, you'll add more DMaps, but not maps? You're just lucky you add such fucking awesome fetures, or there'd be a chance that I might be slightly annoyed on a totally unnoticeable level

(Yes, there's praise in there somewhere)


Quest Rule: Can Select A-Button Weapon. Yes, the time for a selectable A-button slot has come. With this rule checked, the subscreen selector won't automatically equip the selected item - you must press either A or B to assign it to a slot.

Sweet. Time for an extention on this: Bomb Arrows. A quest rule would be the way to go for this. If Bombs and the Bow and Arrows are equipped to either A or B, pressing A and B at the same time will fire off a arrow with a bomb, which explodes upon contact, dealing splash Bomb damage

Of course, unique sprites for the Bomb Arrows would be a must

[jman2050]

A small test quest for you all

http://jman2050.armageddongames.net/test29.qst

:)

[DarkFlameWolf]

Enemy Editor = AWESOME
except, all drop down menus when viewed crash the editor every time.

[jman2050]

like I said, I'm not getting that crash except in the weapons menu (cause of a stupid error on my part. It's really kind of annoying me :(

[CastChaos]

Wonderful!!!

I rarely post here, but it can't be leaved without comment. Far better than anything that I expected. I was astounded the most at the dmap count raising... ...this is so, so wonderful!

Enemy editor is also a thing that I didn't expect.

As far as scripting... uh... I know what a script is, but I need to look at that scripting thread to know whats going on...

I will download it and the starter quest tomorrow.
This is too much goodness to list (but Jman did it anyway, lol) so I mention just one more: immunity against bubbles! Now if a player whines about too much red bubbles, the questmaker can say: "Lolz, didn't you get the immunity ring, nub? :)".

[blue_knight]

Well I see what you mean jman. Now I can update my smooth sideview scrolling script and make it even better! I'll see what I can come up with later.

Anyway thanks for the timely release!

[beefster09]

That reminds me. Last night I had a dream where somebody had Z3 style scrolling in their quest. Then I looked at it in ZQuest, and it was a screen and a half that you could scroll along. What baffled me was that it didn't use any scripts. :D

EDIT: All of the dropdown menus spaz out, the string editor doesn't work, What has B16 come to? Well at least the Heart Container Pieces thing doesn't show junk tiles anymore!

[*b*]

So, is it possible to link custom items with weapons yet, to be able to make new swords and stuff?

[Freedom]

Anyone want to give a rundown on what some of the things mean and do in the enemy editor?
Looks pretty confusing to me....
for instance the sizes, width and height, don't seem to reflect what the enemies are.

[DarkFlameWolf]

From what I understand some of it doesn't work yet, like all of the second tab.

[The_Amaster]

All I need now are generic item classes, and my quest will be perfect(hint)

[Freedom]

In the enemy editor, what are the 0. tile and S. tile boxes for?

[Linkus]

In the enemy editor, what are the 0. tile and S. tile boxes for?

My Guess: the O tile is for the Old Animation style, what the tile refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is not checked. The S tile is Special, used for the such as a darknut with a shattered shield or when the digdogger splits into the kids.

[jman2050]

Once I nip this string bug in the bud, I'm gonna build a new version for everyone to enjoy. Just be patient.

[Linkus]

For those who wonder what a majority of things do in the Enemy Editor, here's what I've figured out:

-------------------------------------------------
Data 1
-------------------------------------------------
Name: Name your enemy.(automatically organizes alphabetically if you save it)
O. Tile--Old tile. This is what ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is unchecked.
S. Tile--Special Tile. Certain enemies use this tile for special purposes; Darknuts use it as a "Broken Shield" tile, as well as a few other enemies.
E. Tile--New Tile. ZC refers to this when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is checked.
W: and H:The W and H values are basically X and Y; the correspond to the tile above them. Put the top-left most tile in the box if your enemy is more than 1x1 tiles large.
HP:--Enemy's HP. 1 makes the enemy defeatable to the Boomerang and all weapons; 2 does the same, but the boomerang stuns the enemy. (Wooden Sword does 2 damage to any enemy.)
Damage: Damage done to Link; goes by half hearts(and Link has the green tunic).
W. Damage: Damage done by a weapon; damage is measured as the same as above.
Random Rate:--The rate the enemy changes direction; the higher the number, the more the enemy changes direction.
Halt rate:--How long an enemy waits before firing a projectile.
Homing rate:--The enemy's "brain"--this determines how close the enemy follows Link.
Step Speed:--How fast an enemy goes.
Hunger:--Determines how attracted the enemy is to the Bait.
Weapon:--Determines what weapon the enmy uses. Note: you must have a Walker and Shooter or a preset enemy function that uses projectile as your type!
Type:--What your enemy does. Many types are here, including preset enemy functions(Keese, Darknut, Wizzrobe, etc.).
O. Anim: Old Animation. The animation ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is unchecked.
E. Anim: New Animation. The animation ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is checked.
Item Set: What the enemy drops when you defeat it.
BG SFX: The SFX plays when you are in the same screen as the enemy; set it to -1 if you do not want a SFX.
Pal Cset: Uses the palettes from the Sprites portion of Palettes. Set if to -1 if you want the default. (Yay!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data 2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Misc Attributes: Not sure at the moment.
O. Frame Rate: The frame rate for the enemy; it works the way as the frame rate for the combos. What ZC refers to when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is unchecked.
E. Frame Rate: Same as above, except that ZC refers to this when the Quest Rule "New Enemies" is checked.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flags
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
they're all self-explanatory, except remember this: Invisible is when you can't see the enemy, invulnerable is where an item has no effect in some way on that enemy, and invincible means having no weakness.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: cought something; if you put the top-right tile of your enemy into one of the boxes, and it didn't work, it's my err. It's the top-left. Sorry!

[The_Amaster]

Ummm..for some reason, whwnever I download it, it automaticly unzips, giving me a completely emety folder....?

EDIT: I tried to manualy unzip it, and it told me the data was corrupt. Argghhhhh, I want my enemy editor.

[Solair Wright]

I really hate it when ZC/ZQuest is rushed, and it appears it was rushed again. It's buggy, buggy, and buggy. I can't use B items and the only thing worth noticing: the wealth medals and the enemy editor. Nothing gets done when games are rushed, and it's barely playable. I said to take it easy, and it's barely playable. :shrug: Last thing I need is Zelda Classic is as buggy as the Atari 2600 version of E.T.

[ShadowTiger]

It's not a full version.

It's a Beta.

It's meant to be tested to get these bugs out so when the full version comes around, it's going to be bug free.

If nobody wants to use it because it's full of bugs, don't expect all the bugs you could have found to be ironed out because you were too afraid of a real quest being bugged up. Don't build a quest for serious use of its new features. Build a test quest to test those new features, rather than showing them off in a real quest environment.

So instead of complaining about how all the betas are buggy, the more bugs we actually find, the more likely it is that future versions, "Full" or not, will not be as buggy.

Considering that the Devs actually stated that these are the last new features to be implemented, we may as well start to expect a full version sooner than later, and test our butts off to ensure that it's not another 2.10.


We need to work on a test quest; something quick and dirty that actually goes right through every possible feature and tests all facets of it. Replaying old quests is a great way to get it done, assuming it doesn't crash.

That said, it'd be nice if the devs themselves could play test these versions for five or ten minutes before release. Some of these bugs are just extremely obvious. (Though I'll admit jman not finding that scrolling bug in the enemy editor is just plain luck.)

[The_Amaster]

I already have a test quest I use. You start with every item, and it has screens with every feature and boss in the game.(Except scripting, I cant script yet) It took a while to compile, but it's great for debuging. Only problem is sometimes I still can't tell if the bug is a bug, or a mistak due to my incompetance.

Oh, anyone have an idea why b16 is corrupt for me?:banghead:

[Solair Wright]

It's not a full version.

It's a Beta.

It's meant to be tested to get these bugs out so when the full version comes around, it's going to be bug free.

If nobody wants to use it because it's full of bugs, don't expect all the bugs you could have found to be ironed out because you were too afraid of a real quest being bugged up. Don't build a quest for serious use of its new features. Build a test quest to test those new features, rather than showing them off in a real quest environment.

So instead of complaining about how all the betas are buggy, the more bugs we actually find, the more likely it is that future versions, "Full" or not, will not be as buggy.

Considering that the Devs actually stated that these are the last new features to be implemented, we may as well start to expect a full version sooner than later, and test our butts off to ensure that it's not another 2.10.


We need to work on a test quest; something quick and dirty that actually goes right through every possible feature and tests all facets of it. Replaying old quests is a great way to get it done, assuming it doesn't crash.

That said, it'd be nice if the devs themselves could play test these versions for five or ten minutes before release. Some of these bugs are just extremely obvious. (Though I'll admit jman not finding that scrolling bug in the enemy editor is just plain luck.)

Well, I know it's a very hard task to work on betas, and there will be betas buggier than others. It's okay, no one can help it at times, and that's why we have a beta testing forum to pinpoint bugs the developers missed.

[The_Amaster]

I think some bugs are really hard to predict, possibly because they don't directly relate to the feature, and are mistakes in the code based off of other stuff. (A great example is the raft bug. I don't recall any feature in the last beta that would have required deliberate editing of the code)(But than again, I'm not a dev)
Oh, BTW, anyone figure out why my b16 is corrupt yet :banghead:(Yes, I'm going to keep saying this)

[_L_]

Fixed the script commands that return map, screen, or dmap numbers so they return integers intead of floats. Work done on the LINKCHARGING command.
Actually, I intended it to be called LINKCHARGED, and would return true only if Link was currently performing a spin attack, quake hammer or something. This is so that the spin attack and quake hammer are "visible" to scripts.

DN seems to have changed it to LINKCHARGING and made it a getter/setter for Link's "charging" variable. Giving scripters control of this variable is, in my opinion, neither good nor useful, as I coded it under the assumption that it would only ever increase when Link's action was "attacking" and his attackclk was frozen at a certain value.

[jman2050]

16b is out.

[CJC]

Figures, 12 seconds after I download 16a. Oh well, at least I hadn't unzipped it yet.


Oh, and Koopa? What did you mean when you said 'Inactive' tile modifiers? (It was in the middle of your post, next to the Link Tile Modifier and about the A and B item selection. I'd quote you, but I'm too lazy to go find the post.)

[Stungun]

May I also suggest a quest upgrading thing, for when betas start to cut new items into the Z# slots? Cause if I make or modify a test quest from a beta using the first 'Z#' items and then a new ZC beta is released that takes up those slots, then I have to do a LOT of editing to get things working again.

Perhaps when ZC imports a quest from an older beta it shifts all Z# item references forwards a few?

[blue_knight]

Hey jman, is there anyway I can get a quick function and argument list for the new ZScript Drawing functions? Even a list would be fine if you don't have time for a full explaination. Thanks :)

[Revfan9]

I would really, really like a list of Zasm functions for the drawing features as well.

[Freedom]

16B is a whole lot better than 16 it looks like.
I ran around for 20 minutes in my quest with hardly a glitch.
Thumbs up guys!

[Deviance]

I really hate it when ZC/ZQuest is rushed, and it appears it was rushed again. It's buggy, buggy, and buggy. I can't use B items and the only thing worth noticing: the wealth medals and the enemy editor. Nothing gets done when games are rushed, and it's barely playable. I said to take it easy, and it's barely playable. :shrug: Last thing I need is Zelda Classic is as buggy as the Atari 2600 version of E.T.

Do you understand the concept of ZC 2.11 is a beta?

[Nicholas Steel]

i agree, 16B is actually usable to some degree.

[CastChaos]

I played for some time and haven't found any big deal.
A few minor things:
-Fairy (got from killing monsters) is stationary.
-Rope (enemy) drops clock too often (when clocks are enabled)
-Link can't use the sword in 0.1% of tries, mostly after hitting or killing an enemy.
-A and B items as as the hearths temporary disappear when getting the triforce piece.
-Hitbox of keeses is crazy! Sometimes they hit before touching them, other times they fly away above Link without hurting him.

Now onto trying ZQuest.

[Radien ZC]

Jman / _L_ / etc:

Hmm, are we going to get a quick summary of beta 16b's bug fixes so we know what to be on the lookout for, first and foremost?


i agree, 16B is actually usable to some degree.
Agreed. I practically ended up creating a bug topic which read "EVERYTHING". Well, that's obviously an exaggeration, but when every single B item did something completely different from what it was supposed to, it doesn't take much to steer them to the bugs.

Hopefully public beta testing will be more useful for 16b. Large bugs are sometimes easier to fix because the problem is more obvious; public beta testing is useful for finding the smaller, sneakier bugs.

[The_Amaster]

THERE we go! Finally! *cracks knuckles*
Sweet. The enemy editor is gonna make my day.

[DarkFlameWolf]

wow, every rupee I pick up gives me 3 rupees, 3 bombs and 3 keys. Woohoo! :P The shield graphics for magic and mirror when moving up or swimming seem to have changed yet again. -_- Everything else looks good so far though.

[Solair Wright]

What does the Charge Ring do? I hate to sound like I'm new to ZC, but I don't know what it does.

[ShadowTiger]

... ... Whoah, ... Okay, Whoah, this is really really weird. This has never happened before. I don't know what kind of bug this is but it's not funny. When I start up ZC or ZQuest in a window, (Parameters: ...zquest-w.exe" -windowed -scale 2 and ...zelda-w.exe" -res 512 448 big -windowed -fast for ZC.) it takes the appearance of the desktop or whatever the viewport displayed when ZQuest / ZC was opened, and won't change unless you manually drag the titlebar around. It may animate then while it's being dragged around rapidly. I think it still plays, but the visuals only display and it only reacts when drug around. What's going on here? This didn't happen with 16a.

... ... EDIT ... Oh crap. Now 16a is doing it to me too. I really have to get My display issue (http://www.purezc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25237) fixed. :sweat: Nevermind then.


But seriously, what does the Charge Ring (1 & 2) do? What does the worn out L1 glove do as well?

[idontknow]

I believe the Charge Ring cuts down the time it takes for Link to charge his sword to do the spin & hurricane spin moves. Charge Ring 1 cuts it down by 1/2 i think & then Charge Ring 2 is 1/2 the time of Charge Ring 1.

I'm still not sure what the Peril Beam scroll does though.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Well, Peril usually means when Link is in peril. So maybe when his health is like 1-2 hearts, the scroll comes into effect and he's able to shoot beams?

[Love For Fire]

In the Minish Cap, the Peril Beam Scroll allowed Link to fire sword beams when his life was low. I'm assuming this has the same effect.

[TheBestGamer]

I already have a test quest I use. You start with every item, and it has screens with every feature and boss in the game.(Except scripting, I cant script yet) It took a while to compile, but it's great for debuging. Only problem is sometimes I still can't tell if the bug is a bug, or a mistak due to my incompetance.

Oh, anyone have an idea why b16 is corrupt for me?:banghead:

A quest like that could come in handy for beta testing. Could you please share it?

[ShadowTiger]

In the Minish Cap, the Peril Beam Scroll allowed Link to fire sword beams when his life was low. I'm assuming this has the same effect.

Almost sounds to me as if there should be a damage modifier for the beams shot when under the influence of the peril beam. They should do a bit of extra damage if Link is under pressure. Or maybe perhaps less, considering that he's so weak.

[Turbon714]

I was just wondering... Will the devs still implement new enemies, now the enemy editor is out to some degree? Or are we supposed to make enemies to fit the needs of our quest(s) from now on?

[splattergnome]

I was just wondering... Will the devs still implement new enemies, now the enemy editor is out to some degree? Or are we supposed to make enemies to fit the needs of our quest(s) from now on?

Well, at the least there are still a few more "official" enemies from the Enemy Contest which remain to be implemented. I assume that the enemy editor will replace any supercharged versions "on crack", since they can be implemented by a quest maker now simply enough. However, I can still see more than enough reason for adding enemies with vastly different attack methods or even motions - for example, Zelda III type archers (moblin archers in the default tileset :tongue:) which back up away from Link to get out of his way, and try to shoot at him. Such new enemies would serve as a good template for new enemies with new behaviors - I am sure others can think of other good examples from the games which can't be simulated with the current editor (yet).

splatty

[The_Amaster]

3 things....
First of all, the new enemy I made doesn't appear on the screen in ZC
Second, where is the "New Enemies" rule. I can't find it.
3rd does the CSet thin in the corner of the EnEd work for regular pallets. That is, if I enter 15, will my enemy be colored as per pallete 15?

[jman2050]

I was just wondering... Will the devs still implement new enemies, now the enemy editor is out to some degree? Or are we supposed to make enemies to fit the needs of our quest(s) from now on?

The plan was to convert the enemy AIs into scripts. that way if someone wanted to make a new enemy they could simply script it. Not sure how well that'll work out before 2.5 though.

[splattergnome]

The plan was to convert the enemy AIs into scripts. that way if someone wanted to make a new enemy they could simply script it. Not sure how well that'll work out before 2.5 though.

I hope this will be done, since it will make things much more flexible, as long as slowdown can be avoided by having several -interpreted- scripts along with any existing FFC scripts. As long as new scripts can easily be assigned to the enemy editor, even anti-scripters won't have any reason to complain anymore. :)

splatty

[Sephiroth]

Hey guys.. What's the status on the Linux port? The latest version for Linux is B13.. Is there going to be an update so Linux users can use beta 16?

[Nicholas Steel]

well, erm the "worn out gloves" i assume do what they do in the BS-X zelda game... they let you only pick one stone up per screen... you have to walk back and forward between screens to pickup a stone on the original screen again... this can be used to reduce paths a person can take.

[CastChaos]

Hey, hey!
<ignorant whine>Slow down with that scripts! Making everything scriptbased can seem cool for first, but script and asm (what is asm, anyways???) needs programming knowledge! It's the same like telling the people that they only can eat fruit if they grow it, so they only get seeds in the first place... Drop down menus are the best, number spaces are also good, but scripting... Developers think that everybody who is interested in ZQuest learned programming? </ignorant whine>

Anyways, the latest version already surpasses my not-so-low expectations.
<joke>Only the editor-editor would be better.</joke>

[Nicholas Steel]

asm is just a language just like c and c+ and c++ and visual basic and all that jazz.

there working on implementing lots of things into the gui to increase whats available to a new quest designer.

[Revfan9]

CastChaos, you can easily do anything without scripts. There are only a few things that can only be done with scripts, but it can all be done somehow.

[The_Amaster]

Hey, is there any way to set the size for an enemies actual sprite. Only I have a custom boss that's 3x5.

[Master_of_Power]

yes, there is a way to set the size... I think

[CastChaos]

Yes, you can specify the lenght and width of an enemy. I remember for some X and Y data whiches refer to the size. Somebody said that this was implemented especially in favor of the (custom) bosses.

I know that almost anything or even anything can be done without using script now, but I want this to remain this way. If I had ever learned programming, I would have used nowadays that C++ program maker and possibly never find Zelda Classic. So, I don't want the enemy editor to be totally script based. Plus it's nice if the developers always adding more enemies, even when makers can create their own enemies.

[jman2050]

Even if *everything* were converted to scripts, they would all be available and working to the average user, allowing them to place them and use them without having a know a lick about scripting. BUt the option would be there for thoe wo know what they're doing.

Also, enemies are still 1x1. I have some more work to do if you want to change the size.

[*b*]

Also, enemies are still 1x1. I have some more work to do if you want to change the size.

Depends on how much work. It'd be VERY nice to have, but you guys have been working hard on 2.5, and there should probably be a limit of how much you can add before you release it... before you start leaking green stuff out your ears

But, if you can possibly manage, that'd be a awesome feature to have

[ShadowTiger]

If such a thing was implemented, what would happen with these "invulnerability" flags? What if one tile of this enemy was vulnerable to something while another is invulnerable to the same thing? Take Dodongos for example; The bomb goes in the mouth, not in the rear end, ( ... ) but you're clearly able to bomb the head and not the rear end, so what what is this flag doing? What if you WANTED to be able to bomb the rear end of something as it runs away from you, and not the mouth?

[Revfan9]

That's because a Dodongo has that specific enemy behaviour.

[The_Amaster]

Don't forget flags like "Ivunerable from rear" etc.

[Radien ZC]

That's because a Dodongo has that specific enemy behaviour.
Yes, the "Dodongo" enemy type apparently accounts for all the characteristics that we associate with Dodongos. That means it's probably not possible to make an enemy that eats anything other than bombs, nor is it possible to make a Dodongo-type enemy that is vulnerable to anything other than bomb-feeding (without scripts, anyway).

By the way, have you noticed that it's now theoretically possible to make a 5+ headed Gleeok? ;) I haven't tried it yet, but the first Misc. Attribute apparently controls the number of heads.

[The_Amaster]

Oh yeah, could a dev give us a comprehensive list of what those Misc. Attributs do? Only I don't have a couple hours to test them all out.

[4matsy]

By the way, have you noticed that it's now theoretically possible to make a 5+ headed Gleeok? ;) I haven't tried it yet, but the first Misc. Attribute apparently controls the number of heads.

Indeed, I tried making a 64-headed one last night. Gave the heads a bunch of health, too, like 64 apiece, or something in that neighborhood.

Took a while for all the heads to come out from the center even with vsync-off-fastforwarding, and then there was this big 3x4-or-so block of heads floating around.

Then, with invincibility on, and the master sword, I started doing hurricane spins into the cloud of heads.

After exhausting the whole magic meter (standard 8 containers long, and 1/2'd), there were still about 6 heads left. :odd:

It was awesome. :D

[Aranda]

ENEMY EDITOR! YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!

Damn, it's not 3.0 yet, and I oh Cjc and Alphadawg 100 bucks each.

:sly:

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

Amaster42, this is long overdue, because I don't frequent AGN as much as I used to, but your issue with the first beta 16 was probably a download error. Redownloading the file (likely corrupted) would have fixed the issue, if I'm correct. Happens with archives every so often.

I skimmed the thread quickly, and I can honestly say that I'm always very confused about the ZC development cycle. It happens so fast, and contains so many updates, bugfixes, etc., that I can't keep up. I can't wait for the full, stable version, but until then, I'm just excited to read. These posts are basically ZC hype, for me.

A question, though. Is it possible now for a player to fall into a hole and fall to another floor, BUT... still keep the X-Y position from where they fell? As in any Zelda since LTTP, you'd fall into a hole and land below on a spot relative to where you fell. In games such as Minish Cap, you could even see the intended landing area below you.

I know for certain that falling and using warps to simulate landing in a room below is possible, but I don't think exactly what I'm talking about can be done. Or can it?

If not, I suggest that a reference option be added to Dmaps. Similar to strings, where you could select which string came after, the new option would allow you to layer Dmaps vertically. A drop box would allow you to select a map that was positioned below the current one. This way, when you fell, you could keep your current X-Y coordinates, line them up with the map below, and fall exactly beneath where the hole was.

Keep up the good work, all of you.

[The_Amaster]

I don't know what it was, but I tried it four times with b16, and it never worked. I tried b16b, and it worked fine. Go figure.

[CJC]

ENEMY EDITOR! YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!

Damn, it's not 3.0 yet, and I oh Cjc and Alphadawg 100 bucks each.

:sly:

I'll be expecting that in cash, thanks.



With the right combination of the editor and scripting, I could have a lot of fun with this. Now... I've just got to learn scripting...
:D

Again, great work guys.

[Stungun]

If not, I suggest that a reference option be added to Dmaps. Similar to strings, where you could select which string came after, the new option would allow you to layer Dmaps vertically. A drop box would allow you to select a map that was positioned below the current one. This way, when you fell, you could keep your current X-Y coordinates, line them up with the map below, and fall exactly beneath where the hole was.



That would probably require a lot more work for a feature that can already be simulated very easily with direct warps, especially since we have 4 tile warps per screen. I would imagine the closest thing they'd make is an auto-set-warp feature. ...which I am going to suggest right away.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I think they are called pit warps.

[The_Amaster]

Acutally, with direct warps, don't we have as many warp tiles per screen as we want. Don't direct warps just put Link in his corrosponding position on a different screen?

[Radien ZC]

Indeed, I tried making a 64-headed one last night. Gave the heads a bunch of health, too, like 64 apiece, or something in that neighborhood.

Took a while for all the heads to come out from the center even with vsync-off-fastforwarding, and then there was this big 3x4-or-so block of heads floating around.
Ahaha...

The fact that ZC didn't crash speaks well of this beta. ;)

[Revfan9]

Acutally, with direct warps, don't we have as many warp tiles per screen as we want. Don't direct warps just put Link in his corrosponding position on a different screen?

Actually, they only warp Link to his same position if the warp leads to a different Dmap (unless something was changed without me knowing it). But even with that, having 4 to work with is useful for custom bosses. This way, you can send Link to a different attack depending on where Link is on the screen.

[Nicholas Steel]

o_O i have direct warps in my quest... check it to see how it works :P

[Master_of_Power]

Don't we have at least 36 warps now? Using scripted FFCs and regular combos together can have up to 36 warps, I believe.

I created a simple warp script that you'd walk up to it and press the "R" key if you are on top of it(Imagine moving doors now =P) to warp.

I'll get it later, sometimes it malfunctions, sometimes it works. FCC Script warps only use the A warp return flag, however

[DarkFlameWolf]

wondering if there will be a 16c. :)

[_L_]

I'm wondering, too. I'd just finished an excellent DMap flag or two, and got script control codes working...

[idontknow]

Hey _L_, any chance you can tell us what the "Dmap Flag or two" is? Or at least some sort of hint, please! :) I'm hoping it's Dmap Cycling!

[Petoe]

Can't wait to see those DMap flags! ;)

Oh and it seems like the bug involving the "refresh animation on room entry" combo option that screws combo cycling in the whole quest is finally gone. Now how awesome is that! We finally get to use that feature in quests. :)

[C-Dawg]

I'm wondering, too. I'd just finished an excellent DMap flag or two, and got script control codes working...

"Script control code?" Whazzat?

[The_Amaster]

And can someone PLEASE tell us what the Misc. Attributes are in the enemy editor?

[Master_of_Power]

I wouldn't be the least surprised if the Misc Attributes, like the Misc Data in the weapons/misc thing, goes widely undocumented.

I Really find it messed up that the misc types in the Weapons/Misc tab have been around for so long and NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE FOR!

[Stungun]

I have a theory, that if you change the Misc Type for boomerangs, they behave differently in their flight path. Because once I saw a boomerang that had sort of 'jerky' motion in a quest (a long time ago), and that's the only explanation.

But seriously. They are in DESPERATE need of documentation, along with several other things. In fact, zquest.txt hasn't been updated since 1.92...

[Master_of_Power]

I only know ONE Misc data number in weapons/misc

3 makes swordbeams have two frames of animation(the exploding end) Everyone knows this one, though.

[FIERCEDEITY]

ummm if you dont mind me asking.....when do you think the next beta will be out?

[ShadowTiger]

Why, do you have a time limit when you can't help test anymore?

[Freedom]

Why, do you have a time limit when you can't help test anymore?

With all due respect, I haven't seen any progress in the bug forum showing bugs being fixed and checked off.
Seems those of us that just want to use the program and build quests have been hung out to dry. and the interest switched to cool things that can be done with scripting.

So where do us quest builders go from here?
The b16b is too buggy to do much building with, there seems to be no hurry in fixing the reported bugs, and it seems that most interest has gone to scripting.
Are we supposed to add a bunch more to our quests only to have it trashed again in the next beta release, like happened in the b12, and again in the b16?

It's obvious that the developers have lost interest in a stable release, and that makes me lose interest in ZC as a whole, so I guess what comes around goes around.

[The_Amaster]

There has been a huge focus on scripting lately, which isn't all that good if you're like me, and cant script for crap. The scripting system is implementd, and it's not going anywhere, so let's get a stable release, and then theres all the time in the world to play around with scripts.

[Petoe]

Yeah Freedom, I wonder why all those bugreports in these forums haven't been edited to "fixed" status or "verified" status... It makes it seem like the devs are doing nothing, but that actually is very untrue.

I know for sure that at least jman is willing to see a stable release and is doing tons of work for that. I used to be a big doubter, and I can't deny that I still have some doubts because every time the devs add a feature or try to fix a bug, a new bug is born somewhere. That seems like an endless cycle and that way ZC would never be stable again, but the devs know the code and they are confident that they can get a STABLE ZC 2.5 out someday. But when? The more we test, the sooner.

[DarkFlameWolf]

and from last I heard, Petoe refuses to work anymore until a stable beta is confirmed. So no LI in time for 2.5, that's for sure. :P

[Petoe]

Wolfie, I will put most of my effort into testing the betas now (though I am not completely stopping work on LI either). The betas are still so buggy and the developers constantly keep changing how things work so I am afraid to work on the quest because I simply don't want to lose any work.
I have enough confidence in jman though so I hope I won't end up feeling let down like Freedom does after all that testing he did only to find out that the bugs just keep increasing instead of decreasing.
But jman really has been doing great job recently in getting ZC more stable. he is definitely concentrating on all possible bugs, not just script related issues so some of Freedom's worries are unfounded.

[Freedom]

so some of Freedom's worries are unfounded.

I wish I could say I believed that, but history and the b16b don't do much to add to my faith at this point.
I was kind of pissed off yesterday when I wrote that because I had just lost a bunch of time making the scrolls only to have it crash when I tried to put them in the subscreen.

I'm not doing any more with it until it's a whole lot more stable than it is right now.

[jman2050]

Crash on the subscreen? Was it the item selection bug? Thankfully, that's fixed.

Furthermore, to everyone else, expect beta 16c shortly.

[Freedom]

Crash on the subscreen? Was it the item selection bug?

No... actually I got in the habit of duplicating an item and then changing its attributes, because doing it like you said crashed before.
So I duplicated one of the scrolls I already have in, and the second I clicked on attributes, I was looking at my desktop.

[Sephiroth]

Crash on the subscreen? Was it the item selection bug? Thankfully, that's fixed.

Furthermore, to everyone else, expect beta 16c shortly.
Don't forget the linux build this time, like you've forgotten it for betas 14, 15, and so far, 16. ;)

[Nimono]

I have a quick question:

Since it's now possible to attach scripts to items, have you made a ZScript/ZASM command that activates the script only when the item is used? I'm asking because I believe I have figured out how to create the Cane of Somaria, but I need to make it only activate at the time of activation for the item. On a related note, do push flags work on Layers 1 and 2 as well as 0? Also, can you make a script spawn a certain weapon/misc. or combo ID?


One last thing: What in the world does the Worn-Out Glove do? Could it be the fabled "Pick-up-items Bracelet"?

[jman2050]

No... actually I got in the habit of duplicating an item and then changing its attributes, because doing it like you said crashed before.
So I duplicated one of the scrolls I already have in, and the second I clicked on attributes, I was looking at my desktop.

Noted. I'll work on this one right away.

[Nicholas Steel]

Don't forget the linux build this time, like you've forgotten it for betas 14, 15, and so far, 16. ;)
blame takayu or whatever his name is.... unless he does only the mac build....

[Revfan9]

Takuya only does the Mac build. Jman is the only developer with a Linux system (suprisingly) and cannot make Linux builds of the betas until his Linux system gets wired, which may not be for a while. According to him, beta 16c/17 should have a Linux build (hopefully).

[jman2050]

16c is out. We haven't fixed everything reported yet, but we're getting there.

Also, I'm not releasing a 17 because I have something special planned for 17. An experiment if you will...

[Revfan9]

Lolz. I knew about this a while ago... I like being the only one in the room knowing what is going on.

[Sephiroth]

lol.. Still no Linux port, eh jman? I think it's time you resized your Windows partition and dual-booted between Linux and Windows, just so the linux ports can actually be done like they should be. :shrug: *gets shot*

[Nimono]

Any new features in Beta 16c? I see an "underwater wave effect" DMap flag, but... Anything else? And what bugs were fixed?

[Revfan9]

From what I know (still downloading, 84% now), a good deal of the subscreen bugs were fixed, as well as some other things.

[jman2050]

Oh, and before I forget... te drawing primitives have been changed around. Not all of them work though under the new format though. Rectangle, Ellipse, Circle, and Putpixel should work for sure (the new format will be in the drawing primitives topic), but I don't think the others will.

[ShadowTiger]

By the way, I noticed that if you export a Subscreen as code, (Into a .zss format.) and try to import it, it's expecting a .sub format. Is this a bug, of a feature of some sort?

EDIT: Upon further experimentation, I went "Rebel" and named it not .zss but .sub. When I tried to import it, (Which it DID see in the subscreen file selection field upon choosing Import Subscreen, whereas the .zss did not appear.) it claimed to be an invalid field.

I'll try typing in its normal name now, and see if it recognizes it. .zss files just aren't showing up at the moment.

EDIT2: Nope. Didn't work when I typed it in manually.

[_L_]

Hey guys, the new marked-up strings work. Try them out! (http://www.greyfire.org/~l/dialoguetest.qst)


Also, I'm not releasing a 17 because I have something special planned for 17. An experiment if you will...I think I know what you're talking about, and I just have to say: You're crazy, man! You're gonna destroy us all!

[blue_knight]

Jman, I just wanted to let you know (and everyone else too) that the script speed is MUCH better now. I've seen cases where the performance literally doubled, now that's a nice improvement :)
Now can you tell me if the LoadNPC problem is fixed in 16c? Do DrawCombo/DrawTiles work now?

[raptorscyther]

This beta is awesome, I didnt get any crashes at all. This was after making a new enemy, mucking round with subscreens and playin with new items. I don't have a half finished quest to test on but starting a new one, no problems. Especially compared to 16b which desktop'd me frequently.
So yeah, keep up the good work =)

One thing though, are links jumping frames fixed at a certain number or change like everything else when you select animation type?

[Nimono]

Please tell me that he sidescroller ladder will be in 2.5. If it won't, I think you should just take out Sideview Gravity until it comes. It's no fun without the ladder. :(

[_L_]

Okay, I'll give it a try...

[Nimono]

Okay, I'll give it a try...

Thanks. But if you fail, don't feel bad. My whole "take out sideview gravityif there's no sidescroller ladder" is just an opinion. There are people out there who could probably find some good uses for the Gravity even without the ladder.

[Revfan9]

Hey guys, the new marked-up strings work. Try them out! (http://www.greyfire.org/~l/dialoguetest.qst)

I think I know what you're talking about, and I just have to say: You're crazy, man! You're gonna destroy us all!

I honestly don't think it's all that crazy. Aside, we can always revert to a backup of 16c and continue fixing bugs if the experiment doesn't work.

[elise]

yeah you can always turn back to 16 c that also doesn't work for me , I wouldn't notice the difference :)
Then you better return to 16 b that one is buggy but works for me ;)

[Nimono]

I honestly don't think it's all that crazy. Aside, we can always revert to a backup of 16c and continue fixing bugs if the experiment doesn't work.

Revfan, you're REALLY freaking me out. How come you seem to know about the progress of the betas when the rest of us don't? Are you like some sort of secret developer or something?

[Revfan9]

...Maybe... <_< *runs*

[jman2050]

Should I continue on with the experiment? It'll take a while, although with a rapid beta release schedule it probably won't be as bad. Thing is, while the feature is, for all intents and purposes, awesome, I'm not entirely sure it's neccesary.

And Revfan knows because he guessed it right off the bat :P

[Revfan9]

Jman, I'm pretty sure it is neccessary. And sure it'll be a while, but as long as we have beta 16c to test out bugs in, we'll be occupied plenty ;)

[The_Amaster]

urrrrARGHHHHH...STOP IT JMAN, you always do this. It's DRIVING ME INSANE. And you Revfan, consorting with him. I expected better of you than to leave your fellow quest makers in the dark when you have a tantalizing secret. Your both enjoying this, arent you? Argghh, JMan, you and your stupid little "A revolution is coming" fetish.

[Eliwood]

Jman, I just wanted to let you know (and everyone else too) that the script speed is MUCH better now. I've seen cases where the performance literally doubled, now that's a nice improvement :)

Ah yes, the fix to the execution speed of scripts. I can say that it took a whole night for him to work that one out (profilers are a must!), and hopefully that sort of performance issue won't crop up again.

[Revfan9]

urrrrARGHHHHH...STOP IT JMAN, you always do this. It's DRIVING ME INSANE. And you Revfan, consorting with him. I expected better of you than to leave your fellow quest makers in the dark when you have a tantalizing secret. Your both enjoying this, arent you? Argghh, JMan, you and your stupid little "A revolution is coming" fetish.

Sorry, I'm sword to secrecy :P

[Nimono]

Sorry, I'm sword to secrecy :P

Yes, "sword" :laughing:

While I like surprises, I hate being left in the dark for a while. Why do you always do this sort of thing to us, jman? Do you even ENJOY tormenting us like that?

[Revfan9]

Actually, I am sword to secrecy. He's holding it to the back of my neck right now. Send help.

And yes, we do like tormenting you like this. We did it for a whole summer with Beta 11, and we're gonna do it again.

*has no idea why I am reffering to the devs as "we"*

[Eliwood]

Yes, "sword" :laughing:

While I like surprises, I hate being left in the dark for a while. Why do you always do this sort of thing to us, jman? Do you even ENJOY tormenting us like that?

Because if he told the public about it, he would be committing to have it done (or risk disappointing the fans, knowing what that feature was), whereas keeping it secret just leaves you wondering what it could have been if he doesn't follow through.

A lot of developers do this, myself included, just to cover our backs in case something doesn't pan out like we'd like.

[Revfan9]

...And also for his own enjoyment...

[The_Amaster]

Keeping something big a secret, in case it doesn't work out I can understand.
But he deliberatly drops little hints just to drive us mad. :banghead:

[DarkFlameWolf]

I was told, but was NEVER sworn to secrecy so I guess I can blab it, but a disclaimer first: THIS IS IN NO WAY GOING TO BE ADDED FOR SURE. If it doesn't work out, it will get removed. So just because I said it here doesn't mean its going to happen! They are simply just experimenting. REALIZE THAT. Anyway, Z3 scrolling. Its a nice idea, but in all actuality, I'm afraid of the new bugs that could arise from this feature. But like everyone has said in this thread, if this totally gets nuked and fails and bugs the ZC engine to all holy hell, we're back to 16c and starting over again. So don't hold your breath over this feature.

[Revfan9]

Aww... Thanks for ruining the fun DFW!

[DarkFlameWolf]

I personally advocate the reasoning that its better for people to know what you're doing and then have it not work out, than be in secret. At least then we know you're still actually doing something to better the game engine. For example, I'd like daily posts by devs about the bugs they squashed that day. That would be a good POSITIVE thing contributed to these boards. That way everyone could visually see and get re-affirmed time after time that some thing was being done. And as for new features, let people know, that way people can discuss it and its potential ramifications with bugs introduced into the engine. Personally, Z3 scrolling is an excellent idea, but at the cost of many potential bugs thus pushing back stable 2.5 until late 2007? We have to weigh these consequences. Why keep that a secret?

[ShadowTiger]

http://www.purezc.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/icon_doh.gif









Let's just get back to fixing bugs so if another attempt is made at implementing it in 2.5, we won't have to worry about fixing every other bug at the same time. It's already swamped enough as it is.



I'm *VERY* interested in seeing Z3 Scrolling. Moreso than even I could've ever imagined. This is particularly due to that amazing Parallel Worlds hack in GGD quite a few forums up from here. (Not to mention the Z3 engine as a whole. Man oh man, what an awesome force they would be.) But we just really have to focus on fixing the bugs that are already present before doing anything major like this. Even if it could be reverted back to 16c, .. or even if it could be finished flawlessly, (Which would be as amazing as seeing a double-headed Unicorn kissing the moon from the other side of Neptune.) it'd still be taking time from bug testing.

[Revfan9]

...Because now, everyone will delete their quests so they can redesign everything to work with Z3 scrolling, then when it doesn't work out, they will have nothing. Great job.

[Nimono]

AH-HA! Why is it that my first assumptions are sometimes right? XD Seriously, I figured that's what it'd be, but... I NEVER THOUGHT THE DEVS WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO TRY MAKING IT! Thanks for telling, DFW. I'm sure that many people will be happy if it's made (even if it's super-buggy). But here's a good question: If Z3 scrolling is perfected, will ZC be renamed Z3C? I mean, think about it- Drowning and falling are being worked on, we have a ton of stuff from Z3, and jman's experimenting with Z3 Scrolling. If THAT gets in, we'd have just about everything we'd need to have an LttP Classic! O_o

Edit: By the way, Revfan, you're wrong. I, for one, won't use Z3 Scrolling much if it's implimented. Only times I'd use it in Realm of Mirrors is in dungeons. Seriously. Who would delete a ton of stuff they worked many days on in their quests just so they can use a cool new feature? ;) I know a lot of people who wouldn't do that, like Freedom. ESPECIALLY Freedom, that is.... :laughing: Then again, who LIKES building a ton of screens from scratch just because of a new feature?

[Revfan9]

See what you did DFW?

[Nimono]

See what you did DFW?

:p Read my edit. As my parents have told me time and time again: It's bad to make assumptions. That's because they're usually wrong and give you a pain in the neck if you act on them when they are. You honestly can't say that people will do that just because Z3 Scrolling is something a lot of people want.

And don't get onto me about what I just said, okay ShadowTiger? I'm just trying to make a point. (Besides, I find it odd how people can be rude to me and no one will say anything about it, but the minute I'm rude to someone, whether on purpose or accidentally, I get a big warning from you. Nice. That just makes me angry.)

[DarkFlameWolf]

I did nothing. From my perspective, if the devs are as smart as I know they are. People will not need to have to quit their quests to remake them for Z3 scrolling, but rather implement it already into quests already existing. That would make backwards compatibility AND the chance to update old quests a reality. No one has to trash anything should this feature even be executed flawlessly. You are worrying over nothing. And as I started earlier and must restate again: THIS IS NOT A SURE THING. So don't go freaking out that its gonna go in. Its just being experimented with.

[ShadowTiger]

AH-HA! Why is it that my first assumptions are sometimes right? XD Seriously, I figured that's what it'd be, but... I NEVER THOUGHT THE DEVS WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO TRY MAKING IT! Thanks for telling, DFW. I'm sure that many people will be happy if it's made (even if it's super-buggy). But here's a good question: If Z3 scrolling is perfected, will ZC be renamed Z3C? I mean, think about it- Drowning and falling are being worked on, we have a ton of stuff from Z3, and jman's experimenting with Z3 Scrolling. If THAT gets in, we'd have just about everything we'd need to have an LttP Classic! O_o

Edit: By the way, Revfan, you're wrong. I, for one, won't use Z3 Scrolling much if it's implimented. Only times I'd use it in Realm of Mirrors is in dungeons. Seriously. Who would delete a ton of stuff they worked many days on in their quests just so they can use a cool new feature? ;) I know a lot of people who wouldn't do that, like Freedom. ESPECIALLY Freedom, that is.... :laughing: Then again, who LIKES building a ton of screens from scratch just because of a new feature?

1) Diverts attention from Bug Fixing.
2) We don't know the code as well as the devs. We can't assume that just because we're not using the Z3 scrolling feature, doesn't mean that something else seemingly unrelated won't be totally screwed up because of its mere presence within the engine. (Not the quest file, as per the quest rule. The whole engine.)
3) There are more than enough bugs in ZC already without adding new features.
4) See #1 and 3, then read #4 again. That should cause an infinite loop within this list. The longer you read that, the more you will realize that this features is best left for 2.5.


[/Hypnotist]

[Nick]

I really didn't have to have DFW saying anything to tell that jman2050 meant "something big will happen that will break a lot of things." It's nice to know what it is, of course. ;)

But seriously... I'd rather something like that waited until after 2.5. I want to see it myself... but PLEASE wait on trying to do it. Please, please, please, please, please wait on it. I am so sick of this plea falling on deaf ears.

[jman2050]

-100 points to DFW for being pedantic about our last convo :P

Regardless, I don't think I'm gonna go through with this. Just the preliminary preparations seem to be causing enough problems.

[DarkFlameWolf]

yay -100 points for me! XD Oh well.

[Nimono]

-100 points to DFW for being pedantic about our last convo :P

Regardless, I don't think I'm gonna go through with this. Just the preliminary preparations seem to be causing enough problems.

Oh well. Easy come, easy go. ZC has lived without Z3 scrolling for a while, so who says the feature can't wait for a while longer? No hurry. But it would've been nice to have. You gotta admit that.

[Revfan9]

Thanks Jman. Seriously. You saved us from a long and grueling flaming session.

[TheBestGamer]

Hang on, I'm lost here. What's Z3 scrolling?

[DarkFlameWolf]

basically it'd be like attaching a multitude of screens together so that instead of transfering from screen to screen by exiting out their sides, the camera would follow Link across all those screens. Sorta like in LTTP where there were areas that were bigger than just 'one' screen.

[TheBestGamer]

Oh, I get it. That would be really nice to have eventually.

[The_Amaster]

I guess what some of it somes down to is: once we release 2.5, are we going to take a break for a few months, or are we jumping right into the next version.
I actually have a proposal that would be pretty cool, apease the masses tired of waiting years between versions, and actually may speed some things up.
What if after 2.5, we do single feature releases. For example, maybe 2.6 only adds Z3 scrolling. It only takes a few days/weeks between versions, and single feature focusing makes DBugging MUCH easier. The downside here is that people constantly need to download new versions, but I'm sure something can be worked out.

[Revfan9]

....If I had to download a new version every week just to play new quests, I would leave ZC, for sure. Again, think of the dial-up users.

[DarkFlameWolf]

@Amaster42... I wouldn't mind that at all really. And seriously, 4 megs isn't that bad to download, even on dial-up. So I say go for it. Besides, most cable companies charge high speed around 30-40 bucks now. So its more than affordable.

[Revfan9]

...It takes me 2 to 4 hours to download a 4MB file, and I cannot get a faster connection in my area. Again, think of the dial-up users.

[beefster09]

The only major problems that could come of Z3 scrolling are:

Enemies. How would they be constrained?
What if you want an irregular shape, such as a cross?
Rooms. How are they distinguished?
Warp returns. How will you be placed?

[Nimono]

The only major problems that could come of Z3 scrolling are:

Enemies. How would they be constrained?
What if you want an irregular shape, such as a cross?
Rooms. How are they distinguished?
Warp returns. How will you be placed?


1: They'd probably be loaded the moment you get within range of their screen.
2: Just keep people from getting to certain screens!
3: LttP's scrolling didn't have one big screen that scrolled- IT WAS MANY SCREENS LINKED TOGETHER! Fascinating, huh? In the dungeon maps, any free-scrolling rooms were shown on the map to be bigger than others. Granted, some scrolling rooms were actually one single room, but that was because of LttP's max room size and the size of the TV screen (Remember, this WAS a console game, after all) If you tried to fit the whole screen into the TV screen at once, every sprite and tile would be small. So the rooms are distinguished as normal rooms, but the bigger ones are (of course) bigger on the map.
4: See above. The rooms are individual, but you scroll between them, so even though it's one big scrolling screen, it's made of individual ones, so depending on what screen you're in, the warps are checked differently. However... This means you get MORE WARPS. Think about it. A 2x2 box of 4 screens that scroll together means that for the giant screen they make, YOU GET SIXTEEN WARPS. But still only 4 warps per screen? I already said how warps would be distinguished, so no need to ask. ;)

[Revfan9]

Well, this is how it was explained to me:

1. The enemies are all spawned within the same room, all at the same time.

2. Not possible, but why would you want a little cross as a shape anyway? Aside, you can just make 3x3, and make the rooms outside of the cross have ceiling combos.

3. You set one room as a "Z3 room" in screen data, then next to it is the number of screens to link, in length and width, with that screen being in the top-left corner. With scripting and x/y positions, they just carry over. Same thing with everything else: The x/y is merely expanded.

4. Exactly the same as always, except the camera would center around Link when he arrived. Screens still work exactly the same, it's just an x/y expansion and a camera.

[Shoelace]

Z3 scrolling would be awesome, but I don't see how cutscenes would work. I mean, we usually have to make an identical screen and it that way, but if the screen was centered around Link, it would be hard to warp to an identical screen.

I personally love the idea, however, with Z3 scrolling you would really need to add things like Global triggers and such, plus I can just think of all of the bugs this would bring. Even though I would love to see this, I would rather you guys wait after the stable release before you put this in. Because again, with Z3 scrolling, you would have to add a lot of other features for it to work out the way everyone wants. It seems it would take a long while to get it worked out too. And a lot of people just want to see a stable release. However, it is your guy's decision, and I will back you up either way but if you were to ask my opinion, then I would say stable release first.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I personally like the idea Amaster supplied about have 2.6, then 2.7 for each major feature. It would make things much easier to navigate. And if you don't want to download the new version just because you have dial up. Then DON'T. Wait until a later release has 'enough' of the stuff you want to use in your quest and download that.

[Nimono]

Z3 scrolling would be awesome, but I don't see how cutscenes would work. I mean, we usually have to make an identical screen and it that way, but if the screen was centered around Link, it would be hard to warp to an identical screen.


Not really. Just set the screen you warp to to also have Z3 scrolling. Granted, it wastes more screens, but... That's the price you have to pay for such a great feature. Besides, they're supposed to add more maps, so we'd be able to waste those screens.

By the way, since they increased the DMaps and plan to increase the Dmaps, do you plan on making a 2.5 "DX" version of your quest? If I remember correctly, you said you left out a lot of stuff in your quest because you ran out of maps and/or DMaps. With all the maps and DMaps we'll have...You could do everything you originally wanted to do with your quest, plus more! ;)

[The_Amaster]

My first idea was sane, so please don't disregard it due to the possible sheer complexity of what this may entail seeing as I know nothing about programming. For those of you with slow net, to reduce download times what if ZC was reconfigured so that all the basic data was in one file, and you would download much smaller files that went in and modified only what was new, instead of a whole new program. This may be really simple, maybe not. To use a Zelda analogy, in LttP, in order to store all the Light world and Dark world on one cart, they kept the basic data the same and only programmed the differences. (Most digital image files work on a similar concept.)Thus the space was drasticly reduced. If this is totally not feasable, feel free to tell me.

[Revfan9]

I personally like the idea Amaster supplied about have 2.6, then 2.7 for each major feature. It would make things much easier to navigate. And if you don't want to download the new version just because you have dial up. Then DON'T. Wait until a later release has 'enough' of the stuff you want to use in your quest and download that.

...Then a quest you have been waiting months to play is released in the new version the next day.

[Shoelace]

Not really. Just set the screen you warp to to also have Z3 scrolling. Granted, it wastes more screens, but... That's the price you have to pay for such a great feature. Besides, they're supposed to add more maps, so we'd be able to waste those screens.

By the way, since they increased the DMaps and plan to increase the Dmaps, do you plan on making a 2.5 "DX" version of your quest? If I remember correctly, you said you left out a lot of stuff in your quest because you ran out of maps and/or DMaps. With all the maps and DMaps we'll have...You could do everything you originally wanted to do with your quest, plus more!

I get that, but I mean things, like the invisible wall with strings has to go. What would that do in a cutscene in Z3 scrolling? What sucks is I usually make every screen have a secrets and secret combos are used. That is why I think Global triggers would have to be used, unless I am overlooking something.

But you have to admit, if there was Z3 scrolling a lot of bugs and features would have to be added. That is all I was saying. I don't mind that much, but I know a lot of people do because they are awaiting a stable release.

Also, I do plan on making a 2.5 version of HoD. It won't have that many differences and no I won't add things that I left out of the game, because I actually made the storyline different so I could take things out to fit it in. And I can't change the storyline now, after I released the game. So new things would just be a easier HoD, clearer storyline, and a new extra level most likely. Nothing big though, it is just basically for the easier gameplay.

[The_Amaster]

...which is why I'm suggesting my probably infeasable update method, which would reduce file sizes of around 4MB to probably less than 200 k.(For those of you bad at math, that's about 1/20th the file size)

EDIT: Dang Shoelace, you posted at the same time I did. Now my ... doesn't make sense. Just put my post under Revfans mentaly.

And Z3 scrolling does worry me for cutscenes, because up until this point most cutscenes I need to make I've been able to fake with warps and secrets, but with Z3 scrolling, I'd have to resort to *gasp* Scripting! which I totally SUCK!! at.

[Freedom]

Would all of this really matter IF there was a stable release that could be used right now to actually build quests in?

I don't think so... :shrug:

Edit,
I really meant for this post to go here "A New Beta Philosophy?" but I guess it fits in here too.

[Revfan9]

...which is why I'm suggesting my probably infeasable update method, which would reduce file sizes of around 4MB to probably less than 200 k.(For those of you bad at math, that's about 1/20th the file size)

EDIT: Dang Shoelace, you posted at the same time I did. Now my ... doesn't make sense. Just put my post under Revfans mentaly.

And Z3 scrolling does worry me for cutscenes, because up until this point most cutscenes I need to make I've been able to fake with warps and secrets, but with Z3 scrolling, I'd have to resort to *gasp* Scripting! which I totally SUCK!! at.

Umm... That is an easy problem with an easy solution: Put cutscenes on only one screen. The way I described it above is the way Jman planned to implement it, meaning that you CAN still use just one screen (in terms of size, anyhow).

Aside, 200K is still a bit to download, and I wouldn't want to have to make new downloads every day. On the terms of stable releases, I think it's working just fine as it is. Although I do agree that such a system would work for beta releases that wouldn't be seriously used for questmaking.

[The_Amaster]

I don't think it would be every day. I mean, you can't think of, implement, and totally DBug a feature in a single day. I was thinking along the lines of between four days to two weeks, or something.
Don't forget, this is still following under the assumption that A.) The devs actually decide to do this, and B.) That theres a way to reduce file size like I said.

[beefster09]

Revfan, you're bandwidth can't possibly be that bad. Isn't it 56k? So, four seconds for 200kb? I never remember a megabyte taking an hour to download back when I had dial up. (A LOOOOOONG time ago)

Anyway, I don't really care whether I use Z3 Scrolling or not, but it won't be used in AMN. It's just too much to take at this point. I might test it with a classic mini-quest, though. Unless you can just combine screens.

[Revfan9]

It's actually 24.6k, and that is Kilobits, not Kilobytes. So in Kilobytes that is 3KB, and that is only when the server is blazing fast.

To answer your only question: The way it was planned, yes. All you can do is "link" screens together in a rectangle, max size being 8x8.

[The_Amaster]

Actually, thinking back, the essence of my idea was only to concentrate on one feature exclusivly in a systematic approach. The only reason I suggested releasing them as stable versions was because, being presumably bug-free, there was no reason not to.

[redmage777]

The only major problems that could come of Z3 scrolling are:

Enemies. How would they be constrained?
What if you want an irregular shape, such as a cross?
Rooms. How are they distinguished?
Warp returns. How will you be placed?


I figure the Scrolling rooms would be a set of rooms grouped together and would share enemys, items and warps as if they were a single room. They would simply be acting as 1 Big room. Further more they would have to be constrained to a Square/Rectangle shape to prevent unused rooms from becoming an issue.

Example Range (0,0)-(2,2) are one 3x3 room, which all use the Data from room (0,0)

Given the fact that they would be sharing all this stuff, making the rooms too big wouldn't make much sense.

[Nimono]

Hey, jman (and the other devs), I'm working on a Cane of Somaria script (and it's almost perfect). If I can perfect it, will you put it in ZC? The way I see it: If it's possible with scripts, you can put it in ZC.

[The_Amaster]

Yeah, Pikaguy, I've sen the script your working on, and while I can't code myself, I know enough to tell what you have so far is pretty sweet. My only concern is the fact that your script requires an extra FFC on each screen. I'm sure that can be worked around, though.

All I'm really saying is for us to use a feature by feature aproach instead of the amalgam 3(or so) new features, a slew of bugfixes, and more bugs beta aproach we've had so far.

I'm not sure if I'd use Z3 scrolling if it meant being confined to rectangular rooms, though. That gets rid of a lot of the usefullness. My idea is to somewhere, in DMap data or somthing, have a blank list of 255 "rooms" and be able to define each room as a set of screens, for example, screens 25, 26, 27, and 37 for an L shaped room.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I'm still thinking the 56k thing is a crutch excuse for not wanting to wait a few minutes to download extra stuff. But personally, the editor is fine as it is, any more new features is asking for trouble. So as it stands, wrap it up, bug test the hell out of it. Release it before the end of the year and we're good to go!

[The_Amaster]

I agree. We need 2.5 now, because it's been far too long. Like I said, my idea was for after 2.5 anyway.
And DFW, I'm pretty sure no matter how long it took, at this point, 2.5 would be out at the end of the year.

[Stungun]

Seriously, I figured that's what it'd be, but... I NEVER THOUGHT THE DEVS WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO TRY MAKING IT!

The devs implemented the Roc's Feather. It was just a matter of time before they did something like this. At this rate, the devs are going to wind up making every hideously oversuggested, improbable idea we've all suggested, JUST to make us go 'WTF?!' :P Seriously, Z3 scrolling, spin attacks, and the Roc's Feather are three of those 'pipe dream stfu n00b' suggestions, asked 500 billion times...

[*b*]

The devs implemented the Roc's Feather. It was just a matter of time before they did something like this. At this rate, the devs are going to wind up making every hideously oversuggested, improbable idea we've all suggested, JUST to make us go 'WTF?!' :P Seriously, Z3 scrolling, spin attacks, and the Roc's Feather are three of those 'pipe dream stfu n00b' suggestions, asked 500 billion times...

And for the record, 499.9999 billion of those asks would be me bugging jman about it over AIM, which I'm sure he'll agree

Speaking of, it's been over a minute since I last did! I'm getting slow

[Revfan9]

I think I can honestly say that I don't care what happens anymore. I've downloaded and tested every beta I could get my hands on, to the point where I just want to finish my quests and be done with it.

[blue_knight]

Well in my opinion Z3 scrolling is a natural progression of the program and I would love to see it. However it may be a good idea to finish 2.5 first and make it the big new feature for 2.6, something very cool to look forward to. This would allow every aspect of ZQuest to be upgraded and tested for use with this powerful new feature without delaying 2.5 and a new "public" stable release.
However, I do think that in the current Zquest some limited scrolling is already possible through script and will be even better once the current features are fixed. Speaking of which, what is the status of the script drawing functions? Do DrawCombo/Tile work with the new format, and what is the new format?

[Petoe]

Would all of this really matter IF there was a stable release that could be used right now to actually build quests in?

I don't think so... :shrug:


Yeah... and after reading about these big plans for a Z3 scrolling... I just feel ZC will never be stable again. Even if the Z3 scrolling doesn't make it to the 2.5, some other "cool" feature will instead and likewise ruin everything. When do the devs stop? Apparently never?

Oh well, what can I do? Nothing but whine. Well whining is over for me. If even one new "revolutionary" feature is added to the 2.5 betas, I'm gonna join Freedom and go to a long vacation far away from ZC...

Jman did a great and convincing job at getting rid of some very annoying and longtime bugs just a while ago, but that's just not enough. Even though the newest betas seem to love Lost Isle (the quest works fine on those betas) I still am afraid that a new feature will come and ruin that wonderful feeling...

Well I'm gonna sit back and see what happens. Nevertheless, I still find the strenght in me to keep on testing aggressively no matter how faithless I currently feel. :P

[DarkFlameWolf]

well the main issue it seems with the current betas and Lost Isle is the subscreen and how items keep mysteriously disappearing when others are acquired. The rest of negligible or too small right not to focus on. (that and Like Likes eating your shield whole and LI set up the way it is, we don't have regular shields for sale, kinda sucks)

also, I've been playing quests on this version and other than the major issue mentioned above, so far, its been doing 'pretty good.'

[Eliwood]

The problem, from what I understand after talking with jman for a week or two, is that the bug list is huge, really huge and not well-organized right now, and when there are only 3 people actively and regularly developing ZC, it becomes off putting to see a bug list that large.

As I said to ShadowTiger in chat, it's like seeing an enormous meal put in front of you, and when you see all the food piled up like that, you pretty much know you're not going to finish that plate and "give up" on the prospect of finishing it right then and there. That's really analogous to what's going on here, and it's human nature, nothing more. Thus comes the idea of the incremental beta, or the snapshot release as I like to call it. Going back to that analogy, if you tackle that dish in small nibbles, you will have a better chance at finishing it than trying to take it in all at once. That's the premise behind these. They aren't meant to be normal betas. They are just there to make a few fixes in a short amount of time rather than a larger amount of fixes in a large amount of time.

Then there's the understandable issue that bugs are nowhere near as fun to fix as adding in new features, especially if the said bugs aren't even reproducible on the developer's platform. I've run into that a lot myself, and it's nerve-wracking and time-gobbling to fix bugs like those.

The root of the issue here is that the current devs (the 3 I was talking about) have too many bugs to fix and not enough manpower to fix them and would like to see another full-time developer join the team. Such developers are at a premium nowadays, but you never know when such people will pop up.

[Lotus_Eater]

Go Eli, I think you about nailed it.

Something else is that the engine is dated, and people are asking for more and more stuff, eventually we will get to the point where the engine cannot support more features.

While I think the crew is doing a great job, it might just be time to finish and fix what is there, than build something new and better.

[Freedom]

The problem, from what I understand after talking with jman for a week or two, is that the bug list is huge, really huge and not well-organized right now, and when there are only 3 people actively and regularly developing ZC, it becomes off putting to see a bug list that large.

As I said to ShadowTiger in chat, it's like seeing an enormous meal put in front of you, and when you see all the food piled up like that, you pretty much know you're not going to finish that plate and "give up" on the prospect of finishing it right then and there. That's really analogous to what's going on here, and it's human nature, nothing more. Thus comes the idea of the incremental beta, or the snapshot release as I like to call it. Going back to that analogy, if you tackle that dish in small nibbles, you will have a better chance at finishing it than trying to take it in all at once. That's the premise behind these. They aren't meant to be normal betas. They are just there to make a few fixes in a short amount of time rather than a larger amount of fixes in a large amount of time.

Then there's the understandable issue that bugs are nowhere near as fun to fix as adding in new features, especially if the said bugs aren't even reproducible on the developer's platform. I've run into that a lot myself, and it's nerve-wracking and time-gobbling to fix bugs like those.

The root of the issue here is that the current devs (the 3 I was talking about) have too many bugs to fix and not enough manpower to fix them and would like to see another full-time developer join the team. Such developers are at a premium nowadays, but you never know when such people will pop up.

With all due respect, this is a corner that the devs painted themselves into, there are many of us that asked them for a stable release BEFORE all the new features, well before this ever happened.
The 2.11b10b was actually a very good release with only a few minor bugs, and then from there they went wild and added a ton of stuff along with so many bugs that it is now IMPOSSIBLE for me to even test betas any longer, since I can't even get off the start screen without crashing.

Before that it was IMPOSSIBLE to test new features like items, that were there, but would crash you if you tried to put them in your subscreen, IF you can't get it in there, you can't test it.

How long are testers going to be expected to continually test without getting a stable release for their trouble?
WHY ELSE do you think they are doing it?

I know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but it's turning out just like I said it would, ZC is now so screwed up from additions, that trying to fix it is overwhelming and nobody wants the task of doing it.

Anyone wanting to build a quest might as well go back and build it in the 190, yea, it doesn't have all the cool new crap. BUT it works.

[redmage777]

Lotus_Eater

What you are saying is Perhaps they should call Zelda Classic "Finished" as of the next stable releace, and the perhaps start work on a whole new engine. One built from the ground up with the Quest Maker in mind, rather then recreating an old classic from 1986?

[Revfan9]

Lotus Eater: Well, you are correct that the engine is a modified Zelda 1 engine, but the engine can be modified to accomodate for new features, and it can be done again if neccessary. There was no Z-axis in ZC until the Roc's Feather came around (enemies that flew around used an invincibility trick). FFCs and Zasm/Zscripts were another modification, as well as custom SFX. A feature that requires a modification to the engine is possible to implement, but just more difficult, and causes more bugs.

[redmage777]

Technically the Z-axis came first, the Enemies were using it in Beta 11 or 12 if I recall. And the Roc's Feather was an eventual by product of it and scripting.

[Freedom]

from 2.11 beta 1


10. Sprites now have a Z variable. This allows for expansion for new enemies (and other things) that will be able to jump and fly. Although a few enemies already do this (tektites and peahats, for instance), the calculation for them is faked. The new method makes jumping/flying easier to do from a programmer's prospective.

[Revfan9]

Freedom: Exactly my point... Although I was wrong in that it existed before the Roc's feather... But the engine was changed in order to accomodate for this.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I personally say, get it stable enough for that 2.5 release and then take what coding there is left to save and start a new engine from the ground up. We've taken the engine as far as it can go without being ridiculous. Going any further and you might as well stop calling it Zelda Classic and just call it "Rpgmaker, the unreleased beta"

[Lotus_Eater]

"but the engine can be modified to accomodate for new features, and it can be done again if neccessary"

How many times can you modify it before it breaks. Fold a steel sword till all the impurities are gone, fold it some and it becomes brittle and breaks. Sometimes things can't be built upon anymore. I think Zelda Classic has hit that point. It should be finished as a Zelda 1 Clone. That is what it is. We have all been trying so hard to make it into something it is not, and we are seeing the effects of it. The engine is simply too strained to support much more. We have pages of rules in order to maintain backwards compatability, we are trying to add all these things that simply should be left out. Even I was clamoring for an enemy editor that would allow me to build an SD3 styled quest, yet, I realize that is not what ZC is for, nor will it ever be in it's current status. The engine is dated, it needs stabilized, it should get finished as it is. Then be final, then something new can begin.

[Revfan9]

So... You are saying that advancement should stop? That's a bit amish-wish thinking if you ask me...

[DarkFlameWolf]

name-call it what you will Revfan, but I agree. 2.5 should be the limits of what ZC can and should ever be reasonably able to do. Its already able to do much more than anyone ever dreamed it could do, but its reaching a point where it could very well break. Its best to just finalized what we have now, call it good and start off with something completely new. The new features in there alone could last us YEARS and YEARS with the new quests that could result from them. So be glad that these new features will usher in a new age of Zelda Gaming. RAther than just having 'more and more'

[jman2050]

I've decided not to do Z3 scrolling, at least not until 2.5 is released.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Would you like a foot massage Jman?

[Revfan9]

name-call it what you will Revfan, but I agree. 2.5 should be the limits of what ZC can and should ever be reasonably able to do. Its already able to do much more than anyone ever dreamed it could do, but its reaching a point where it could very well break. Its best to just finalized what we have now, call it good and start off with something completely new. The new features in there alone could last us YEARS and YEARS with the new quests that could result from them. So be glad that these new features will usher in a new age of Zelda Gaming. RAther than just having 'more and more'

Perhaps if everyone were like you, but sadly, you are the only person like you, and that is, simply, that. People will get sick of ZC within a year, 2 tops, without the new features. Maybe some of them will stay past that, but within 2 years I can easily see ZC starting to fade and die.

Maybe I'm just afraid of ZC to just stop, as pathetically it's the only thing really stopping me from putting a gun to my head, or maybe I just hate it when people preach to me, I've never been one to follow religion.

[Freedom]

So... You are saying that advancement should stop? That's a bit amish-wish thinking if you ask me...

That's nonsense Revfan, NOBODY ever said that.
They said get it stable BEFORE it gets to the point that it has to be ripped apart and started over with just to get it to work.

You can't continue to pile bug on top of bug and then expect to sort it out at some later date, and at the same time expect the people that USE the thing to hang around year after year and wait.

[Revfan9]

I was never reffering to advancement of features in the betas, I agree that stability is more important right now. I was reffering to the recent start of the topic that no more versions of ZC should be made after 2.5

[DarkFlameWolf]

never following religion, maybe that's why you want to put a gun to you head. But back to the topic: Of course there would be something other than ZC 2.5, but it won't be ZC anymore, but rather a different entity altogether and a fresh new take on something we all love so much. Rather than just more bugs heaped on an aging engine.
And it won't matter either way, people will either get sick of ZC within a year or so after its stable and leave, or they get sick of ZC sooner with all of its bugs and leave now rather than later, take your pick.

[Revfan9]

Not listening to reason and trying to push your beliefs on everyone else is just human nature I guess. Ah well.

[The_Amaster]

I have to disagree with ZC becoming an "RPGMaker". Game design is my hobby, and I have several RPG makers, and ZC is radicly different from anything I else I've ever seen. Almost all of them are standard Big Overworld, DragonQuest style battle makers. As for ZC ending, well, there are allways new features to be implemented, because Nintendo is still years ahead of us and still growing.

[DarkFlameWolf]

You're the one who is swearing off everyone who says advancement should stop and telling them that their opinion doesn't matter and its amish-thinking to you. Isn't that in a way forcing your beliefs on others? And when the heck did religion get involved anyway? I believe you brought that one up.

[Freedom]

Not listening to reason and trying to push your beliefs on everyone else is just human nature I guess. Ah well.

I've noticed that a bit about you, both here and at purezc. but that's ok, you'll grow out of it in time, but we all still all love you just the same. ;)

[Stungun]

Revfan, you are completely missing the point. We're not saying to stop ZC and then quit everything.

What we meant... was to Make ZC a finished state, BUT. BUT! But, turn the 'advanced version' of ZC into a different project. ZC would be the old expired version, used for old, Zelda-1 like stuff. This new project wouldn't have to worry about backwards compatability, and would be a lot less messy.

EDIT: To further clarify, in case people are still confused: We'd still have the ZC everyone is looking forwards to, with Z3 Scrolling and a billion and six different new features, just under a different name; Whereas the name 'ZC' would simply apply to a project that stops at ZC 2.5 or something.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Thank you Stungun, that's exactly the standpoint I'm trying to convey.

[Revfan9]

Revfan, you are completely missing the point. We're not saying to stop ZC and then quit everything.

What we meant... was to Make ZC a finished state, BUT. BUT! But, turn the 'advanced version' of ZC into a different project. ZC would be the old expired version, used for old, Zelda-1 like stuff. This new project wouldn't have to worry about backwards compatability, and would be a lot less messy.

EDIT: To further clarify, in case people are still confused: We'd still have the ZC everyone is looking forwards to, with Z3 Scrolling and a billion and six different new features, just under a different name; Whereas the name 'ZC' would simply apply to a project that stops at ZC 2.5 or something.

Ah. Thank you, stungun. I can die happily now.

[beefster09]

There are only 5 things that need to be done (other than stabilizing)

1. Finish string editor
2. Finish enemy editor (finish implementing all the flags)
3. Finish item editor (naming items! hello?!!)
4. Finish subscreen editor (or at least somewhat)
5. Optimize scripting engine.

Now do that, stabilize ZC and nothing more! If you just keep adding features, there will be more and more bugs.

[Lotus_Eater]

Which is also what I have been saying.

I think Zelda Classic has come to the point where advancing the engine further is a bad idea, fixing it is fine. But we'll want a new engine to continue with past this point. Yeah, we'll have a huge slump where we won't get all sorts of new stuff, but then we'll have something fresh. Without the piles of baggage that ZC already has.

[DarkFlameWolf]

well, we won't really be in a slump, there will be quest arising from all these new features in the meantime while we're waiting for a new engine.

[Nimono]

well, we won't really be in a slump, there will be quest arising from all these new features in the meantime while we're waiting for a new engine.

Plus, people will keep scripting, and thus, the devs might get some ideas for newer items in the new engine. Though, if you ask me, if a new engine was made after 2.5, it should be an LttP engine. If it's supposed to have backwards compatibility with the old (current) engine, just put all the features from 2.5 into it that aren't already in. Simple as that, right? (Figure of speech. I don't mean that literally.) The reason I think LttP is because most of the features people want come from it or its GBA remake (Like Hurricane Spin). But that's just my opinion. For all I know, it could be a TMC engine instead... XD

[Lotus_Eater]

Please note that I said where we won't be getting new features, I realize that people will be making their quests though. On the other hand, I actually forgot about scripting.

IF they build a new engine I imagine it will be able to do LttP and most likely Minish style as they are very similar.

[Nicholas Steel]

Revfan, you are completely missing the point. We're not saying to stop ZC and then quit everything.

What we meant... was to Make ZC a finished state, BUT. BUT! But, turn the 'advanced version' of ZC into a different project. ZC would be the old expired version, used for old, Zelda-1 like stuff. This new project wouldn't have to worry about backwards compatability, and would be a lot less messy.

EDIT: To further clarify, in case people are still confused: We'd still have the ZC everyone is looking forwards to, with Z3 Scrolling and a billion and six different new features, just under a different name; Whereas the name 'ZC' would simply apply to a project that stops at ZC 2.5 or something.

i agree here... its just too hard retaining backwards compatibility... and would speed up development of new features quite a bit if you finished and made a solid fully backwards version and then started anew on a new version from scratch.

[redmage777]

I think a new Engine should focus more on Action-Adventure style games LIKE Zelda more so then Zelda itself... So many awesome games have been "Zelda Clones" but brought intresting thinks to the table (Secret of Mana, Alundra) If a new engine is made I think the developers should not be tied to a particular game. "A Generic Action Adventure Engine that is more then able to make a Zelda game."

This also makes current legal grey areas ZC falls in a little less grey.

[Revfan9]

*coughRPGMakercough*

I half like the idea and I half don't. On one hand, it allows for more flexibility than something strictly for Zelda. On the other hand, that makes me fearful of ZC becoming like RPG Maker and it does nothing but bring in such an onslaught of n00bs who do nothing but make incredibly crappy games. One of the things I always liked about ZC is how noone really knew about it. Although this reduced the community to only a few hundred people, it did mean that people who became serious about making games that were worth a shit were capable of forming without being smothered by the constant wave of newcomers.

[The_Amaster]

we cud lwys hve R oWn LOCKED forum wr U hav to B a gd tiper und conribut to suff!!!!!!!!:):):):):):D:D:D:D




....

*Ahem*, sorry. But if you couldn't read that, we could always have our own locked thing where only those who can type in complete sentances with punctuation, and actually contribute rather than just ask questions and suggest outrageously complex features. The Beta forums have kinda been this way for a while, as most nOObs acess from zeldaclassic.com, but that could all change.

[beefster09]

we cud lwys hve R oWn LOCKED forum wr U hav to B a gd tiper und conribut to suff!!!!!!!!:):):):):):D:D:D:D

Yeah, grammar is undervalued here at AGN. There really should be rules against shorthand like at PZC. Abbreviations are okay, though. It makes everyone look bad when there are some lazy-as-heck typers. You pretty much summed it up in one sentence there, Amaster.
Really, look at my sig. N00bs are gonna make ZC look like crap even more if we don't do something.

Now something a little more on-topic.
No more features, please. Just minor nuisance fixes and 5-minute additions. Don't forget bugfixes! Those are just as, if not more important.

EDIT: Sweet!! My power is rising!! 300 posts!

[shadowfall1976]

I like ZC as it is, to remake the engine would mean that this community would
fall to the same fate as 2.5. in short it would no longer be ZC, just a knock off
of the many existing RPG making games, that are as impersonal as anything.

ZC may be aging, but it is Zelda, and to change now to a RPG clone, would lose
the feel of what made me come here in the first place. I like Zelda, as do many
of you. the engine has expanded far beyond it's original constraints to become
what you see today, I know there are a ton of bugs from trying to add too many
new features at a time, but as you can see though, new features still can be done.

why start a new engine now, when all you have to do is go get already
existing RPG making software, it would be no different. now if the new
engine was backwards compatable with old ZC quests, but feature the
LTTP / MC engine then that would be fine. but a full on full RPG making cloner
WHY?, when you already have so many available to you now... go use one of them and leave ZC alone.

ZC is ZC and always should be, even if you move along to the Z3 engine at
least it would still be in the Zelda realm, and you can make better quests
I know with Z3, but like I said Z3 is still Zelda, and that is what this
community is a ZELDA fan based arena.

I have been a ZC user for almost 3 years now, and I like it as it is, and I am
sure i'm not alone... I mean add new features YES!!!, by all means but YES
too no more until it has been made fully stable.

and I hope that it will be soon as I have put off quests to wait for a stable
release.

I know I don't post much here or at PZC, but after reading I thought I would
speak my piece as you all have done. but just because I don't post much don't mean
I don't use ZC or am some kind of newcomer or something...

and with the LOL nonsence please by all means NO MORE!!!!!!, that is what I have been
saying, learn to type and not be so damn lazy.

[_L_]

1. Finish string editor
2. Finish enemy editor (finish implementing all the flags)
3. Finish item editor (naming items! hello?!!)
4. Finish subscreen editor (or at least somewhat)
5. Optimize scripting engine.
6. Add bottomless pits and drowning. (Tbe presence of the Roc's Feather insists upon this!) Also make the stepladder work for the aforementioned.
7. We still haven't got a decent Farore's Wind sound effect. One that matches the "popping" animation.
8. Item Drop editor.
9. Finish the instruction manual.
10. Scrolling?!? (The thought of it makes strong men shiver...)
11. Oh, yeah, sideview ladders, almost forgot.

[The_Amaster]

Sounds pretty good. All I ask for should be pretty simple. GENERIC ITEM CLASSES. Jut make a few item classes with no properties, that's all I ask. Take about 5 minuites. And I thought Jman put Z3 Scrolling on hiatus until after 2.5. Also, we need to stay pure Zelda. I mean, other games can be made, but we shouldnt turn into an RPGMaker. Although, I will say I haven't seen an RPG Maker that can do live action like we have. If were lucky, 2.5 will inspire a 1.90-ish surge.

[Freedom]

Re: Zelda Classic 2.5 WILL be out before the end of the year
I guaranteed it, and so it will be.



Please note that he didn't say it would be stable, or even working. Just that it would be out. :D



Re: Zelda Classic 2.11 Beta 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by beefster09 View Post
1. Finish string editor
2. Finish enemy editor (finish implementing all the flags)
3. Finish item editor (naming items! hello?!!)
4. Finish subscreen editor (or at least somewhat)
5. Optimize scripting engine.
6. Add bottomless pits and drowning. (Tbe presence of the Roc's Feather insists upon this!) Also make the stepladder work for the aforementioned.
7. We still haven't got a decent Farore's Wind sound effect. One that matches the "popping" animation.
8. Item Drop editor.
9. Finish the instruction manual.
10. Scrolling?!? (The thought of it makes strong men shiver...)
11. Oh, yeah, sideview ladders, almost forgot.


We have a Prophet in our midst....
DN, When is Jesus coming back?
Enquiring minds want to know.
;)

[Mega Link]

6. Add bottomless pits and drowning. (Tbe presence of the Roc's Feather insists upon this!) Also make the stepladder work for the aforementioned.
7. We still haven't got a decent Farore's Wind sound effect. One that matches the "popping" animation.
8. Item Drop editor.
9. Finish the instruction manual.
10. Scrolling?!? (The thought of it makes strong men shiver...)
11. Oh, yeah, sideview ladders, almost forgot.
Does that mean that sideview ladders will or might be in ZC?

[Petoe]

6. Add bottomless pits and drowning. (Tbe presence of the Roc's Feather insists upon this!) Also make the stepladder work for the aforementioned.
7. We still haven't got a decent Farore's Wind sound effect. One that matches the "popping" animation.
8. Item Drop editor.
9. Finish the instruction manual.
10. Scrolling?!? (The thought of it makes strong men shiver...)
11. Oh, yeah, sideview ladders, almost forgot.

Umm... what is this scrolling you're talking about?

Oh and the most important "feature" of the ones L listed is #9 Finish the instruction manual!

[DarkFlameWolf]

Yes I agree....this scrolling should....not be considered...at ALL. Leave well enough alone until after 2.5 For a dev to go behind everyone's backs and add it in and causing millions of bugs will get personally stabbed by me a thousand times, chopped up, pissed on and fed to my wolves.

[Lotus_Eater]

That was . . graphic. Anyways, my thoughts have been added in their entirety.

[_L_]

Does that mean that sideview ladders will or might be in ZC?

Well, if we're agreed that a ladder combo:
* causes Link's sprite to change to a "climbing" sprite
* slows Link's movement
* prevents Link from using items and the sword
* prevents Link from falling

Then yeah, it sounds like a cinch. I'm just doing other things at the moment, that's all.

Also, I just noticed that scrolling's been taken off the list. Well, in that case I'll replace it with something else I forgot:


1. Finish string editor
2. Finish enemy editor (finish implementing all the flags)
3. Finish item editor (naming items! hello?!!)
4. Finish subscreen editor (or at least somewhat)
5. Optimize scripting engine.
6. Add bottomless pits and drowning. (The presence of the Roc's Feather insists upon this!) Also make the stepladder work for the aforementioned. This isn't as hard as you think.
7. We still haven't got a decent Farore's Wind sound effect. One that matches the "popping" animation.
8. Item Drop editor.
9. Finish the instruction manual.
10. Finish NewDefault tileset.
11. Oh, yeah, sideview ladders, almost forgot.

[Freedom]

_L_,

There are 17 full pages of bugs right now, and the list is growing everyday.

Jman would have long ago realized his goal and had a stable release out, had it not been for you adding things that are unfinished and bugged up.

yet....
You continue to add add add more more more.

When can we honestly expect you to actually get what you have added fixed and stop adding more?

The program has long since become totally unuseable, at best I might salvage what I had done in my quest, back in b15, and with a lot of repairwork possibly save.

I've long since come to the conclusion you are actually Glenn the Great, under the assumed name of _L_, come to put the last nail in the Zelda Classic coffin, by filling it with bloat that doesn't work and forever more corrupting it to its very foundation.

When can we expect a working Zelda Classic?

[Nicholas Steel]

I like ZC as it is, to remake the engine would mean that this community would
fall to the same fate as 2.5. in short it would no longer be ZC, just a knock off
of the many existing RPG making games, that are as impersonal as anything.

ZC may be aging, but it is Zelda, and to change now to a RPG clone, would lose
the feel of what made me come here in the first place. I like Zelda, as do many
of you. the engine has expanded far beyond it's original constraints to become
what you see today, I know there are a ton of bugs from trying to add too many
new features at a time, but as you can see though, new features still can be done.

why start a new engine now, when all you have to do is go get already
existing RPG making software, it would be no different. now if the new
engine was backwards compatable with old ZC quests, but feature the
LTTP / MC engine then that would be fine. but a full on full RPG making cloner
WHY?, when you already have so many available to you now... go use one of them and leave ZC alone.

ZC is ZC and always should be, even if you move along to the Z3 engine at
least it would still be in the Zelda realm, and you can make better quests
I know with Z3, but like I said Z3 is still Zelda, and that is what this
community is a ZELDA fan based arena.

I have been a ZC user for almost 3 years now, and I like it as it is, and I am
sure i'm not alone... I mean add new features YES!!!, by all means but YES
too no more until it has been made fully stable.

and I hope that it will be soon as I have put off quests to wait for a stable
release.

I know I don't post much here or at PZC, but after reading I thought I would
speak my piece as you all have done. but just because I don't post much don't mean
I don't use ZC or am some kind of newcomer or something...

and with the LOL nonsense please by all means NO MORE!!!!!!, that is what I have been
saying, learn to type and not be so damn lazy.
I and possibly ShadowTiger... maybe even DarkFlameWolf... would rather a new engine after 2.5 because it is just a massive pain keeping backwards compatibility.... YES it will have the exact same (maybe more) features as ZC 2.5 BUT will not play quests made in versions of ZC older then 2.5... as this would just allow the coders to clean the code up to an insane degree with a lot more ease and allows the coders to add and modify the code and fix bugs a hell of a lot quicker due to the code being organized better.

old versions will use a seperate bug free version designed to work with the old quests and there limited formats and many quirks... while new quests use a much less limited new quest format that just wont ever be easily ported to the old format...

i'd expect it would take the developer's who now know a hell of a lot more then when they first started zelda classic to take maybe a year to get a safe beta out the door... maybe even in less time.

[redmage777]

I think a new Engine should focus more on Action-Adventure style games LIKE Zelda more so then Zelda itself... So many awesome games have been "Zelda Clones" but brought intresting thinks to the table (Secret of Mana, Alundra) If a new engine is made I think the developers should not be tied to a particular game. "A Generic Action Adventure Engine that is more then able to make a Zelda game."

Let me clarify my position, there are a lot of cool features to be found in games that "clone" the Zelda formula. Some of these have been suggested, but shot down simply because they are "Not Zelda." Yet if incorperated into the engine, they could cirtainly improve the quest making experiance (Zelda or Not.) Perhaps its time this subject (The idea of a fresh Zelda Classic Engine) got its own topic for further discussion? It seems to have less and less to do with beta 16.

[Nicholas Steel]

my idea will allow for non zelda things to get implemented more easily aswell.

[DarkFlameWolf]

That's a pretty strong assumption there Freedom. I just pray you aren't right.

[Petoe]

Yeah Freedom...
_L_'s features have been ruining ZC for a long time, so sometimes I have to wonder about his motives. But I don't want to believe that his true intention is to harm ZC...

_L_, is it so insanely hard and impossiblefor you to concetrate on bugfixing only... I mean you have skill, but you use it in the wrong way. >_<

[DarkFlameWolf]

O.o EVERYONE STOP! GEEZ, STOP ATTACKING EACH OTHER! *asplodes*

[Nicholas Steel]

/me joins in on the asploding party.

[CastChaos]

The features _L_ mentioned are really needed to complete the next version. For example, it wouldn't be good if the many "Not yet implemented" text remains in the subscreen editor.
However, after every feature is fully implemented, an only-bugfix thing would hit the spot.
IThose harsh words about _L_... well... like a bad joke. (Yes, I know how buggy the nowadays versions are. Although, I found only few... Surely I played too few quests... (not))
*kinda joins DFW*

[Nicholas Steel]

we include finishing stuff not fully implemented as a bug fix... but just adding stuff for no reason but to add it... thats just not something a few elite quest creators desire.

[_L_]

Adding bottomless pits and drownable water solves several problems.

* Since drowning water must be walkable, it will no longer stop Octorok projectiles and other such things from passing across it. It also eliminates the not-so-logical dipping-into-water delay.
* It also allows the quest maker to use pit combos that both the Ladder and the Feather can cross. Or pits that require jumping off the Ladder!
* And thirdly, it eliminates the use of pit warps, damage combos and extra screens that are currently used to simulate bottomless pits.

In fact, I've already got the basics laid down. In the coming builds the "Can Drown in Walkable Water" quest rule should be available. (Note: I don't control the release of builds, so don't expect it tomorrow.)

[Nimono]

Adding bottomless pits and drownable water solves several problems.

* Since drowning water must be walkable, it will no longer stop Octorok projectiles and other such things from passing across it. It also eliminates the not-so-logical dipping-into-water delay.
* It also allows the quest maker to use pit combos that both the Ladder and the Feather can cross. Or pits that require jumping off the Ladder!
* And thirdly, it eliminates the use of pit warps, damage combos and extra screens that are currently used to simulate bottomless pits.

And Sideview Ladders solve the problems about going up in gravity rooms. So, instead of looking at them as more new features, perhaps you could either look at them as updates to old features or BUGFIXES? I mean, if you're going to look at finishing the "Not Implemented" items in the Subscreen Editor as bugfixes, then you HAVE to look at a few of _L_'s ideas as bugfixes, too. Drowning and falling have already been started, according to jman, and Sideview ladders have been REQUIRED since Gravity came into ZC, which TECHNICALLY could be considered an unimplimented feature! So at least let Falling, Drowning, and Sideview Ladders come into ZCV without arguement. You have to admit, with what's already been done, they HAVE to be put in, so why not just bury the hatchet right here and right now? It'll make everyone happy.

...And now I run away so I can stay out of this! :)

[Revfan9]

Yeah Freedom...
_L_'s features have been ruining ZC for a long time

...

-_-

[Nicholas Steel]

don't forget that removing unfinished stuff is like the biggest kind of a fix for bugs....

[splattergnome]

don't forget that removing unfinished stuff is like the biggest kind of a fix for bugs....

Not if its already so deeply entrenched and woven with the rest of the source - then it can be quite annoying to unhook it from the rest of it. Believe me, I'm currently having the fun converting a DirectX program to OpenGL, which means I am trying to unhook all of my "pure" game engine from my sprite engine and graphics code... :(

I agree with -L- that it is very important to finish what one has started. The before announced additions will finally round out weakspots that currently exist - and make 2.5 a definitive release. :)

splatty

[Freedom]

Not if its already so deeply entrenched and woven with the rest of the source - then it can be quite annoying to unhook it from the rest of it. Believe me, I'm currently having the fun converting a DirectX program to OpenGL, which means I am trying to unhook all of my "pure" game engine from my sprite engine and graphics code... :(

I agree with -L- that it is very important to finish what one has started. The before announced additions will finally round out weakspots that currently exist - and make 2.5 a definitive release. :)

splatty

Where that all may be true, the problem seems to be that _L_ hasn't been FINISHING things before moving on to some other new addition, and that seems to be the biggest underlying problem with testing then....
Knowing if it's a bug or if it was never finished to start with and as such THAT is the reason it won't work.

[Nicholas Steel]

also... you can remove access to the end user to the parts that are woven deeply into the code so as to not upset other parts of the code till a suitable replacement is made.

[doombadass]

i like the way it is set up so far but it is just a bata but it is still very asome. i cant wait for the full viershion comes out but the bata vershion i am useing of the 2.11 bata (16) is still the beast one out there.

[erm2003]

i like the way it is set up so far but it is just a bata but it is still very asome. i cant wait for the full viershion comes out but the bata vershion i am useing of the 2.11 bata (16) is still the beast one out there.

Glad to see your enthusiasm, but wow. I hope you proof-read your future posts a bit more before posting stuff like this. Get a spell checker, please.