Excuses, excuses...

[Darth Marsden]

OK. I've got an email that I'd like to share with you. But first, a bit of backstory.

I ordered Zelda: Twilight Princess via Amazon.co.uk near the end of November. Upon checking my account the other day, I noticed that it was supposed to have been dispatched on December 22nd - which it hadn't. So, using the automated process, I sent them the following message:

'> Your name: Darth
> Order No: Removed
> ITEMS:
> The Legend of Zelda: The Twilight Princess (G...
> Comments:I have yet to hear anything regarding this order. Any
update would be appreciated.'

What I got in return had me laughing my nuts off. I invite you to take a look and join me. Remember - I wasn't upset or anything, merely curious as to what was going on, and this was my first enquiry into the order.


Dear Customer

Thank you for writing to Amazon.co.uk with regard to your order Removed.

I can only imagine how frustrated you must be with us at this point,
and after reading your pleas for resolution, I appreciate the
admirable restraint you exercised in your message.

My sincere apologies for the time you have spent dealing with this
issue.

I am really upset to say that the item is still in back order.

When this order was placed, we have ordered the items from our
supplier. Unfortunately, when we contacted the supplier for an
update, we found that the item is no longer available with them.

When you placed your order, we believed we had access to more
copies - we then discovered that every one of our distributors had
rapidly sold out.

In an effort to compensate the inconvenience caused, I have upgraded
the shipping method for this order to First Class Delivery option,
at no additional charge.

The revised estimated Delivery Date is January 04, 2007

I know that this upgrading will in no way compensate for the
inconvenience caused, please understand that we do care for our
customers and do all we can to avail this item for you, in spite of
all the efforts our reliance on suppliers and manufacturers for
information about their stock, has caused this disappointment. I am
extremely sorry for this situation.

Please note that the above mentioned dates are simply stated in your
Account as stand-in dates. I can assure you that we are working hard
to obtain this item for you and we will ship it as soon as we are
able to obtain it

I have checked our records and found that this item is currently
listed as out of stock with us, but we have placed an purchase
order with our authorized suppliers who deliver this item to us.

Please note, this item is hard to find title. I hope you would
appreciate that being the retailers we are totally dependant on our
suppliers for the supply, and the latest information from our
suppliers shows that they are facing unexpected delays in obtaining
this "The Legend of Zelda: The Twilight Princess (GameCube)".

Please understand that as a retailer, we rely solely on the supply
from our supplier.

May I assure you that we are trying to procure it from a number of
suppliers and we are not limited to only one supplier for fulfilment
of this item. At this moment, the supplier extended the time to
notify us regarding when he exactly obtain this item.

Please rest assured that they are working on this issue with high
priority to dispatch your order without further delay as soon as we
receive a copy from the supplier.

Order status will change any time even between the time I send this
mail and the time you read it. We are expecting this item from our
supplier's and any moment it will ship.

To keep you fully informed on the progress of your order, we'll send
you an e-mail when we receive the item from our supplier and ship
it from our Fulfilment Centre, confirming the date, contents and
method of delivery. You won't be charged until we ship it to you.

We would understand if you'd prefer to cancel your order. You may
cancel unshipped items through the "Your Account" page, accessible
at the top of any page on our web site. To cancel your order,
simply click "Cancel items or orders." After signing in with your e-
mail address and password, you will be able to view your order
history and cancel your order for any item that has not yet entered
the shipping process.

If you change your mind and wish to cancel an item that has not
entered the dispatch process, you may cancel it yourself via Your
Account, located at the top of any page of our website.

Complete information on your statutory rights or cancelling an order
can be found in our Help Desk at the following URL:

Removed

For reference, I've listed step by step instructions on how
to cancel items or complete orders below.

1. Visit the URL: Removed

2. Click on "Cancel items or orders", then enter your e-mail address
and password and click "Continue (using secure server)".

3. Select the open order that you wish to modify, then click "View or
change order" and "Need to cancel an item?".

4. Then select the check box next to any items that you wish to
cancel and click on "Cancel checked items".

We will not debit money from your bank account until just before your
items are dispatched. Your bank account is charged approximately 24
hours after the items in your order have entered the dispatch
process.

If an order is sent out in more than one delivery, we will charge
only for those items that have been sent out, and you should find
the transaction recorded on your bank statement three days later or
on your next monthly statement.

We pride ourselves in being focused on customers like you who make
our company successful. I apologize that your experience with this
order has not been consistent with that philosophy.

I hope that you will consider this delay as just an aberration and
give us another chance to serve you better.

Thank you for choosing Amazon.co.uk.

...:D

[Warlock]

Yeah, I tried to order the Twilight Princess Prima CE Guide (the cool hardcover one with the cloth map) from Amazon.com awhile back, in fact a few weeks before release, and it was always scheduled for a Dec. 21st/22nd delivery. Then like a week before that I get an e-mail "Oh sorry, you won't get it until the end of February now".. absolute BS. I went to GameStop, picked up their last copy, and cancelled my Amazon order. Screw them. Wasn't worth waiting TWO MONTHS to save $10.

[DarkFlameWolf]

I also heard that Nintendo is no longer making any more copies of the Gamecube version of Zelda. So you might be out of luck.

[Orion]

Out of curiosity, is that spiffy hardvoer Zelda guide worth getting? Does it have a lot of art and such?

[DarkFlameWolf]

hmmm.....just as much art as any other guide out there, but it does happen to go insanely indepth detail on every section of the entire game. So you'll basically not be missing a single thing.

[mrz84]

I also heard that Nintendo is no longer making any more copies of the Gamecube version of Zelda. So you might be out of luck.

Dood! That would suck so much, because I don't have a Wii (yes, I know I walked right into that joke...) and that I planned on getting Twilight Princess for Gamecube ASAP. Now I wanna hit something with a hammer! :gavel:

[Thunderbird]

I would be really surprised if Nintendo stopped producing the GCN TP, since it has only been a month since its release. Wouldn't make much business sense, IMO.

[ShadowTiger]

Although the fact that I even saw ONE copy on the shelves of my local GameStop was amazing. (Like seeing a giraffe with a rainbow striped hippo napping on its forehead.) ... ... How incredibly surreal. I should've gotten it. ... but man, Fifty Dollars. :shakeno: I'll be getting a Wii for Brawl, so I may as well get it later anyway. BFD etc. You can use the GCN controller on the Wii to play TP, right?

[Warlock]

I would be really surprised if Nintendo stopped producing the GCN TP, since it has only been a month since its release. Wouldn't make much business sense, IMO.

They didn't. They only *under* produced it to drive Wii sales of the game up. They'll probably kick out a ton in the next month or two once Wii mania starts to die down a little :P

[Modus Ponens]

You can use the GCN controller on the Wii to play TP, right?

Yes, if you're playing the GCN version on the Wii. The Wii version requires the Wii Remote and Nunchuk to play, no exceptions--not even you, ShadowTiger.

[Pineconn]

Heh heh, I gots my GCN TP! (Yes, I said "gots" on purpose.) I got it December 13, the earliest I could have gotten it. Pre-order is a good thing. Anyway...

That e-mail is seriously funny. Your e-mail was 159 characters long, and Amazon's is 4102 characters long. :D I think they said "this is a hard item to get" / "we put our customer first" about five times each. I think I might order something from Amazon, ask about its status, and see if I get a response as long. :p

[DarkFlameWolf]

local game and electronic stores both said the same thing, that GCN Zelda was not being produced anymore, how odd.

[Warlock]

local game and electronic stores both said the same thing, that GCN Zelda was not being produced anymore, how odd.

Yeah game stores tend to be dumbasses about that stuff. Half the time they'll tell you rumors they read on the interweb as facts.

More than likely they look at their computers and see they aren't getting any more TP for GCN and assume it isn't being made anymore.

Trust me, Nintendo is just keeping stock low to push the Wii version. It's really their fault for doing it cross platform in the first place. The problem is, a Zelda game for Wii's launch is basically a system seller. But with Wii being able to play GCN games, and especially now with supply so low of the system, a lot of people would just pick up the GCN version now, confident that if they ever actually want to buy a Wii, they can still play it. But if Nintendo keeps supply low, then the extremely plentiful Wii version may be the only playable one. Of course, with the system shortage this is a bit of a moot point right now, but I'm sure Nintendo's supply will eventually catch up to demand (though I'm amazed it hasn't yet with Christmas over).

Another thing is that GCN is basically a "dead system" at this point, so Nintendo is never going to produce as many copies as the Wii version. But certainly they would not *stop* producing it when there is still some demand (that's just lost money).

[Darth Marsden]

Update! And a much better one as well.

Me: I've enquired about this before, but the response I got
was the most wonderful automated response that I've ever had. While
it was entertaining to read, I'd prefer it if I got a more human
response this time!

I very much appreciate the free upgrade to first-class delivery,
and was wondering if you could give me an update as to the status of
this order? Thanks.

Them:

Dear Customer,

Thank you for writing to Amazon.co.uk with regard to your order
# BLAH

We have found that there is a delay with The Legend of Zelda: The
Twilight Princess

Sometimes unexpected fluctuations in supply can add time to our
original availability estimate. We have learned that it is out of
stock and do not have a new date for delivery.

We have removed the dispatch costs from your order.

To check the status of your order, view estimated dispatch and
delivery dates, or cancel an item or order, please visit "Your
Account" at the top of any page on our website:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/your-account/

Please contact us again using the link below if you have any further
questions:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/email

Thank you for your patience, and for shopping at Amazon.co.uk.


Warmest regards

James O' Connell
Customer Service
Amazon.co.uk
'Warmest regards?' Who the hell says that? Still, much better response this time round, hmm?

[AtmaWeapon]

local game and electronic stores both said the same thing, that GCN Zelda was not being produced anymore, how odd.I'm agreeing with Warlock and also adding that these stores tend to fearmonger any chance they can get. They'd rather you buy a Wii + Twilight Princess than Twilight Princess, or abandon Nintendo entirely and help their buddy Sony out. The "Oh god every game is underproduced and if you don't preorder you won't get it for WEEKS" attitude is exactly why my game store of choice is Wal-Mart. :mad:

For maximum comedy you should go back and if they say it again mention you read on a Sony forum that Sony is halting production of PS3s after the next batch and planning on making all Blu-Ray players capable of playing PS3 games.

[Grasshopper]

I guess that means you hate me, right? Heheh You should go work at that store then for a couple years, especially around Christmas time, if you think they are like that.

Anyway, why not just cancel the order and buy if from a store. It's in stock around where I live. I don't see why it wouldn't be in stock around where you live.

[Warlock]

I guess that means you hate me, right? Heheh You should go work at that store then for a couple years, especially around Christmas time, if you think they are like that.

Anyway, why not just cancel the order and buy if from a store. It's in stock around where I live. I don't see why it wouldn't be in stock around where you live.

Not necessarily - high pop. places like New York and LA may not have any in stock - esp this long after release. Other places may just have not gotten big shipments. It kind of depends on where he lives.

[Lotus_Eater]

I work at Wal-Mart and the Nintendo Rep said we would only get one shipment as it was only being produced for a very limited time. However we did get another shipment. According to the rep that is it.

Later,
Lotus

[vegeta1215]

I haven't played the Wii version of Twilight Princess, but the more I read the more the controls seem like they're gimmicky and tacked on. I have the Gamecube version right now and was thinking about getting the Wii version too once I have a Wii, but unfortunately TP was a let down for me, so I don't know if I will or not.

Also, I understand they are pushing the Wii version in order to sell Wiis, but they shouldn't make the Gamecube version hard to obtain when there are people out there who want to purchase it.

[Pineconn]

People out there who really wanted it so badly should have placed a preorder on it, then. Just do what I used to do: grab a GCN controller, watch a video of gameplay (like the 30-minute E3 '05 video, for instance), and play along. It hung me over until I got it. ;)

[Orion]

Well, if you're that desperate for a copy of Zelda, they have a brand spankin new copy of it at the GameStop at the Mall of America in Bloomington, MN :P

[mrz84]

I didn't preorder because I was short on cash. I only work when they say I can. I can't take overtime unless it's "scheduled" (my ass!) and this limits how much I make. So my problem about not pre-ordering the Gamecube Twilight Princess is because my job sucks.

[AtmaWeapon]

I guess that means you hate me, right? Heheh You should go work at that store then for a couple years, especially around Christmas time, if you think they are like that.Well whether I hate you or not depends on whether you agree with this guy:
People out there who really wanted it so badly should have placed a preorder on it, then.Time was, game supply wasn't so horribly limited and preorders had to come with goodies to convince people to buy. Suppliers loved it because it helped them accurately judge how many expensive cartridges they needed to produce to meet demand.

Now, we stamp games on media that costs a dollar or so a copy (and that's if they were purchasing DVD-R media at retail) yet there isn't enough to go around? No matter what the game is, if I walk in my local Gamestop on the day after launch (remember, "launch day" means "ship day" now), I am told one of two things: either they only got enough copies for the preorders, or there is just ONE left and if I would preorder next time blah blah blah.

I get pretty tired of being chastised by a retail employee. Let's compare how things happen in game stores and in the real world:

Game Store
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Customer Um hey I'd like the new Zelda please.
AtmaOh really? What's your preorder number?
Customer Oh I didn't--
Atma Mmmmm hmmm. Well you see I have some copies but it happens to be exactly as many copies as there are preorders. You might luck out though; sometimes people decide not to pick them up.
CustomerOh hey can I leave a number and you call me if someone cancels.
Atma Ahhh I'm going to have to say no. Next time preorder buddy!
Customer Screw you jerk I'm going get my game at Wal-Mart.
Atma Yeah whatever kid they don't have it.

*10 minutes later Customer is seen walking by with the game in hand*

Atma Yep looks like Wal-Mart fails to deliver again. If he had only pre-ordered he could be playing it today. Instead he's without the game.

Real Store
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Customer Uh yeah I called and someone said you was getting a door truck today and I need a door
Atma Oh yeah? Did you place an order for a door?
Customer Look man the door I need is right there
Atma Yeah but you see yesterday 3 people called for similar doors and I am holding it for them; if you had called earlier I could have maybe held one for you.
Boss Man Hey Atma could you come see me back in my office for a minute?
Atma CRUD

So no I don't hate you, the employee but I do hate the establishment you work for and the Sony fanboy jerk of a manager that is at my local store.

[vegeta1215]

I can only presume that Atma has also read this great Penny Arcade strip from a few weeks ago: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/18

I had Zelda on pre-order since October 2005, so there was no way I wasn't getting a copy.

[Darth Marsden]

I pre-ordered a couple of weeks before it came out - end of November, IIRC - so maybe I just didn't get in there fast enough.

I live in England (as I seem to constantly be telling people) and it's a bit of a trek to the nearest game store. A half hours drive, which I don't, so I have to take the bus which is, as with everything these days, bloody expensive, so even if I did get over to the store and buy a copy, it would be £40 + £6 bus fare which isn't nice. The alternative is to wait a couple of weeks and get it for £30, and given that I don't mind waiting and have been given free first-class delivery to make up for the wait, I'm more inclined to do that.

As I say, I don't mind waiting. I'm going through the other Zelda games because of my obsession with playing games in order (see my estimated timeline (http://homepages.tesco.net/steveemarsden/Zelda.htm)), so by the time I get TP, I'll have actually reached it chronologically (Is that actually a word?). Plus I've been picking up the Bond books I haven't already got (and wondering why the John Gardner/ Raymond Benson paperbacks don't have a universal cover design) so I've got those to kill time with, as well as that re-edit of The Man With the Golden Gun I'm working on, as well as other stuff I've no inclanation of mentioning here.

So it's not like my whole life has stopped because I haven't got a game I ordered a while ago and knew I might have problems with.

[Grasshopper]

I can only presume that Atma has also read this great Penny Arcade strip from a few weeks ago: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/18


I like that one. Our manager printed it out, and we put it up in our store.



So no I don't hate you, the employee but I do hate the establishment you work for and the Sony fanboy jerk of a manager that is at my local store.

I don't really like any large corporation; "Foodstop" nor Wal-Mart. Often times I hear the dumbest comments from people that heard something from Wal-Mart, which leads me to think that the employees are making this stuff up just to see if they will believe it. I'm sure its funny on their end, but not on mine. Our store has a Nintendo fanboy as one of the managers, but he isn't a jerk. He just happens to like Nintendo. None of the people I work with seem like jerks. I guess there are those places. I could go on, but thats a different thread.

[vegeta1215]

As I say, I don't mind waiting. I'm going through the other Zelda games because of my obsession with playing games in order (see my estimated time line (http://homepages.tesco.net/steveemarsden/Zelda.htm))

With the release of Twilight Princess, I've seen more and more crazy time line theories. TSA used to have one that made sense, but now it's just ridiculous. He even had a whole gigantic forum post at The Hylia about it, but I didn't even bother to read it. A time line shouldn't require that much explanation. The fact that people are still trying to piece one together with Zelda it silly.

Really, an easier way to look at thing that takes a lot of the complexity out of trying to piece together a single time line is to have multiple time lines. There is already a "split" time line theory as a result of Ganondorf's origin in Twilight Princess (the split comes from the time travel stuff from OoT), but I think it's easier to just have more than that. For example (just off the top of my head):

1. Original Time line: LoZ -> AoL
2. Imprisoning War Time line (Ganondorf sealed in Sacred Realm):
OoT (Adult) -> LttP -> LA
3. Alternate Imprisoning (Ganondorf sealed in Twilight Realm):
OoT (Child) -> MM -> TP
4. Four Swords: TMC -> FSA -> FS (not sure of the order for FSA and FS)

The Oracle games could fit anywhere, so all the really leaves is Wind Waker. The only thing that ties WW to a certain game is all the "Hero of Time" stuff, so presumably it fits somewhere after one of the OoT splits. I can't remember much about WW in terms of how Ganondorf came back. I may have to play that again soon.

[AtmaWeapon]

Or you could go with the theory that TP clearly supports in both action and game quotes (which I can provide after the next playthrough).

"Link" is not necessarily a specific person born in a specific family. Previous games have established Link is always a descendant of Hylians, but it isn't really stated whether that is exceedingly rare or not. Consider the number of Jewish people today, all descendants of the initial 12 tribes (and, depending on your creation beliefs, of Adam and Eve) and you see that "descendant of _____" doesn't place a significant constraint on the population of candidates.

I swear I remember being told by one of the gods in-game that when evil rises, a Hero is chosen, and this game's Link is that hero. I take this as canonical support of the multiple Links theory, and I think any attempts to place the games in chronological order (aside from the ones like ALttP, OoT, and Majora's Mask that clearly refrence each other) is destined to fail. Obviously some of them had to happen before the others, but I've seen Ganon and Ganondorf stabbed in the head, turned to stone, reduced to dust, and several other unpleasantries yet he still exists in other games.

I have another theory concerning Ganondorf/Ganon and a possible analogy to the Castlevania series but it's time for class so placeholder ahoy!

[Grasshopper]

I swear back when Ocarina of Time came out, Nintendo said that every game had a new Zelda/Ganon/Link. My memory is hazy, but wasn't a male Gerudo suppose to be born every 100 years, and he was Ganon. Or was it just that male Gerudo ended up being Ganon. I thought I remember hearing that when everyone started talking about how Link was a little boy, thinking that was the first game in the series. (Or maybe that was Wind Waker came out) I can't remember exactly what was said or when it was said. I hadn't really bothered to keep up with the time line.

[Darth Marsden]

Grasshopper - Spot on with that observation. One male Gerudo born every hundered years, which leads to the big question - how the hell do they survive? Does that one male get a lot of tail, or are all the gals just really old cows?

...yeah, that's what my 12 year old brain was thinking about. I'm a very disturbed ickle boy.

Until Nintendo (or rather, Miyamoto) give us an official timeline, I'm going with multiple Links. Hence the 'Hundereds of years pass'. And I'm not saying this is right. It could well be bollocks. It's just my theory.

And since I'm drunk right now, I would love to hear your Zelda/Castlevania theory, Atma. C'mon, lay it on me!

[AtmaWeapon]

OK I am back from class so here is an observation I've made with respect to how Dracula is handled in the Castlevania series.

In the early days, both the players and the games were younger and things like "coherent timelines" weren't really needed. There weren't any really big conflicts, either; Zelda II surely had to have taken place after Zelda I and so forth. Programmers didn't have much space available for setting up long dialogues or complicated cut scenes, and what games did display large amounts of plot did not display expensive translation efforts.

Then, somewhere towards the late SNES era, sprawling plotlines were available and developers had to do a little better than they had before. Games that were obviously not related (like the Final Fantasy series) had no troubles, but working a new Zelda in took some work (it was explained that this Link was one of the original Link's ancestors, I believe). Still, it wasn't until the N64 era that troublesome timelines started to creep in.

Castlevania has handled the issue of Dracula's multiple resurrections quite well, in my opinion, and I think this theory is workable for the Zelda series. The recent CV games Dawn of Sorrow (and the one that came before it that I sadly have never played) depict a post-1999 world where Dracula has been truly destroyed, yet attempts to raise the Dark Lord in a new body are underway. The game's explanation is that with no being of evil, it is impossible for good to exist. When the world lacks evil, the Dark Lord is incarnated in Dracula's form. When Dracula is finally defeated, the Dark Lord has to find a new vessel.

This explains why Dracula always comes back, and even when his body is destroyed his influence still has power. I think Ganon and Link have a relationship similar to Dracula and the Belmonts. Even if Link is able to totally destroy Ganon, the absence of a truly evil presence causes the world to eventually reincarnate him. If no Hero is around to fight Ganon, the world selects a Hero to balance good and evil. The Hero defeats/destroys Ganon, and the cycle begins again.

*edit* Wait... "12 year old brain" "I'm drunk right now" http://www.atmaweapon.org/images/emot/psyduck.gif

[Pineconn]

Well whether I hate you or not depends on whether you agree with this guy: {Me, btw.}

Sweet, I was put between a love ya/hate ya situation.

My timeline theory is that there is none. Every new installment screws over every single previous timeline. Heck, Twilight Princess added the whole new Light World/Twilight Realm, unless that is supposed to be similar to LttP's Light World/Dark World, which I doubt. ...:sweat:

[Orion]

So, is it crazy for me to want to go buy the GCN version, even though I have the Wii version? I picked up a copy and looked at it yesterday, and part of me just wanted to blow the $50 and play it again. After all... it *is* backwards.

[mrz84]

[QUOTE=Darth Marsden;1107502]Grasshopper - Spot on with that observation. One male Gerudo born every hundered years, which leads to the big question - how the hell do they survive? Does that one male get a lot of tail, or are all the gals just really old cows?
QUOTE]

The answer is right there in OoT. In pre-Ganondorf-getting-the-triforce-of-power Hyrule Castle Town, there's a villager who mentions Gerudo women sometimes coming to town looking for boyfriends. Those the answer is there. :kitty:

[Darth Marsden]

Well, tickle me pink and call me an anchovy. Funy how I missed that. Much obliged, Mr Minstrel.