ATT CHG : Combo Type vs. Flag

[C-Dawg]

FFC changers used to be combo types... now they are flags. I understand the logic of making them flags, but I preferred them as combo types.

The advantage of making ATT CHG a combo type instead of an FFC flag is that you can set your chosen combo, once, to be an ATT CHG FFC. Then, when you set it up in a quest, you don't have to go to the flag tab and click anything; you just set the location of the FFC, and the new movement for FFCs that pass over it.

As it stands, setting up complicated trap or boss paths now requires an extra three clicks per ATT CHG FFC (click tab, click radio box, click tab). This sounds like not so much, but it adds up over time, and we've already shown its unnecessary.

And, of course, those of us that were tinkering with ATT CHG FFCs before the change was made now have FFCs that don't work AT ALL. Instead, I have ATT CHG FFCs floating around the screen.

[Freedom]

Jman told me in a PM that the combos would be put back in. ;)
I've left all of mine just set in my quest, waiting for the next beta, it would take days and days to try and fix them all.

[C-Dawg]

Yep. Nice to see that such a prolific quest maker is taking advantage of the new features, by the way.

[Freedom]

well....
I'm trying, but more often then not I just find myself dazed and confused when I open ZQuest now.
Makes me want to drag out the old Zeppelin CD's and just veg out.
;)

[_L_]

Counterargument!

Making Att.Chg a Combo Type is a case of incorrect scope: combo types should always have an effect on the mobility of the sprites. Att.Chg serves no purpose when placed as a combo. Its only effect is when it's assigned to an FFC. In effect, it's functionally identical to applying a flag for that FFC.

Something I value highly is making ZQuest as intuitive as possible. For example, I've just implemented something that replaces all of those "level 0" special cases for DMaps (such as guys, caves, whistle whirlwinds etc.) with DMap flags which allow you to set each of those in turn. (Backwards compatable, by the way.) And a combo type doing the work of a flag is just not sensible.

And, to convince those people who are now twice shy about the Changer flag, I vow to do the following in either the next beta or the next:
* Make Changer flag backwards compatable with FFCs made in betas <16.
* Fix that one bug with Changers.

In closing: Vote L.

[Freedom]

That's all fine and good.... BUT
From my side I've seen my freeform combos trashed twice now in these betas is my Robinhood quest that I've been working on for over a year, and I'm to the point I'm ready to rip them all out and be done with it, not to mention the fact they got trashed in Castle Haunt III too, which I went back and finished up and released in the b10b just to be done with it.

That's why I've been calling for a STABLE release, so builders wouldn't have to keep redoing things, and players wouldn't be forced to download obscure versions of ZC every time they want to play a quest.

[Nicholas Steel]

and if you backed up your quest freedom prior to using the beta's you would fined that nothing would have permanent effect on you... (excluding loss of work done in a beta)

[Freedom]

and if you backed up your quest freedom prior to using the beta's you would fined that nothing would have permanent effect on you... (excluding loss of work done in a beta)

Of course I back my quests up Franpa, but who wants to go back and redo months of work that was done after the change up to a newer beta, they are ALL betas.
I went through this exact thing with Link to Tortuga, it was built up to 95% completion in 192b184, and then 2.10 came out and it was finished in that which introduced new bugs into it.
My tileset was built in 2.10, otherwise at this point I'd go back to 184, since it's the most stable, even as buggy as it is.

Truth is, Jman and "L" just aren't reading from the same book, Jman assures a stable release, and "L" keeps adding more and more making that impossible.
Jman assures the FFC combo's will be put back in, and "L" says no they won't.

I'll just wait for a stable release, and the in fighting between developers to stop before I do any more with ZC.

[C-Dawg]

I'll vote for _L_. Preserving the tinkering of a few quest makers isn't worth the hassle of stifling the development of ZQuest. That said, I hope this backwards compatability thing works. And I still sorta liked the combo implementation, cuz it saved clicks.... ah well.

[Freedom]

I have to disagree with the "few quest makers" part of your comment.
ALL the best quest makers have stopped production waiting for a solid release.
DFW, Petoe, Shoelace, and more.
I might be the only one openly calling for a stable release before more more more is added, but I can assure you I'm not the only one that feels that way.

If there was a version available right now to actually build and release quests in, how much more is added to betas wouldn't be an issue, but there is nothing from the 192b184 up that can be used since the 2.10 has the quest crippling shop bug and every beta since has even worse problems.

Nobody wants to stifle development of Zelda Classic, but at the same time, who wants to be a "professional" beta tester for a program that can't even be used at this point to build and release a quest with.

[Petoe]

Once again Freedom says it so well.
But Freedom, you're not the only one being very frustrated and calling for a stable release. There has been many times when I have been very close of stopping/quitting Zquesting because of the damn eternal instability and I've been crying and whining all the time that the developers should get 2.5 done ASAP before they screw something up badly with some of those new features and we'll never see a stable release again. What is so hard in fixing the current bugs and adding all these "awesome" features later?
Dammit... Don't wanna sound rude but I just have to say it: Without L and all the problems he brought with him I'm quite sure things would be looking much better for a stable 2.5 at this point. Sure he is adding cool features but it seems like he is ruining everything. Jman keeps telling us that a stable beta is coming soon and that certail deveLoper has to take it easy with these new features, but that deveLoper keeps coming up with his stuff and CHANGING how stuff works causing major problems and unstability.

Call me whatever you want now but after working fewereshly on a quest during the whole year and no stable release in sight I just get all pissed off... :p

[jman2050]

The combo *itself* will most likely not be put back in cause _L_ is right. It is a problem of scope. What does NEED to be done is make it so that FFC attribute combos are converted correctly to the flags. THAT is the main issue here, and will be made so in beta 16.

[Freedom]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't even get the flags to work period.
The ffc either disappears at the change or the flag itself takes off across the screen.
I've tried every way I can think of, and guess I'll just do what Petoe said he is doing.
I'll remove all of them from my quest, close the program, and wait for the day there is a stable release.

How can I report that as a bug, I don't know if it's it or me, I just know after hours of trying, it don't work, and months of my time is now lost as a result.

[jman2050]

Report it. The flag should, for all intents and purposes, work just like the combo type. If it doesn't, there's a problem.

And yes, unless you're testing, I would no longer suggest working on quests in the beta versions. The stable version is coming very soon though (January, see the Crunch Time topic for more details) so hopefully this won't eat up too much of your time. Again, sorry for the problems this has caused.

[Freedom]

Jman,
the betas are really the only thing there is to work on quests in.
I quit making quests when the 2.10 came out, in case you hadn't noticed.
The last two quests I did, CHII and Link to tortuga were almost complete in 184, and the last couple levels were done in 2.10 and released, only because I couldn't go back to 184 once I upgraded.
It was the same with CHIII, I actually started it in 184, then because my tileset I built was done in 2.10 I upgraded to that because I figured I could get that quest done without the need of shops which don't work in 2.10, and then I upgraded it to 2.11b10b because It looked like that was going to be a good stable release.
All the problems started with 2.11b11, and have gone downhill ever since.
Before that I honestly believed that a stable release was coming.
When b12 came out, I quit for 2 months, and only started back up again with b15 because you said there would be a stable release and I figured I should help beta test, but now I'm seeing the time was spent on new features instead of working towards stability, and no release is forthcoming and the bugs are worse that ever.
Getting this thing stable by Janurary now would be a miracle.

[Petoe]

It really hurts me to see what Freedom has gone through with ZC. He tests his arse off in hopes of seeing a stable release, and how he gets rewarded? He gets to witness the release of the most buggiest betas ever. :(

Oh well, why do I even keep posting here? No one takes me or Freedom seriously. Maybe it's because almost everyone else seems to think it is awesome to get all these new features and wait another year or two for a stable release. I'm very saddened to see that the developers seem to share their opinion as well that features are more important than bugfixes. Oh well, nothing left to say on my part other than goodbye, I'm off of these beta forums. I'll withdraw somewhere and keep dreaming of a stable ZC... though I could return to bugtest if I just could see the desire of getting the betas stable.

[Freedom]

Nobody really needs to take us serously Petoe, the proof is in the pudding.
Look at how many really decent quests have been released in the last 2 years.
I can count them on one hand.
One good stable release now would change all of that, even if it doesn't have all the features in the world.

I've noticed something here in the last few days.
Even though there have been all of these new additions, the suggestions forum is getting more action then the bug forum is.
So it's plain to see, that more more more is desired over something that can be actually used to build quests with.
I've also noticed that the people calling for more more more either haven't released a quest, or haven't done so in ages.

[jman2050]

Fortunately, the only people who actually matter in ZC development is us. I wish that people would actually test the betas out rathr than ask or new features, but hey, can't do anything about that.

We're working on it though, so please try to be patient just a LITTLE longer.

[Freedom]

That was towards my point that a bug free release in Jan. would be a miracle.
Everyone with the exception of a small few are playing with new features, and suggesting more to go with them, and other bugs are being overlooked.
I can't think of any of the new features that "L" added that aren't bugged, so then testing those takes time and effort away from testing other areas for bugs.

Having to try and figure out how stuff is supposed to work isn't helping, then we don't know if it's a bug or if we just don't know how to use the new feature.

I believe the only way that the program can be tested is after new features are no longer being added.
It took months for the bugs in 2.10 to come out, after it was released, so any release next month can only be expected to be the same, and it will only be a crap shoot if one of those bugs turns out to be a quest killer like the shop bug was with 2.10.

I believe there's really no need to talk about a stable release until after the adding of new features has stopped, because not only does that introduce more bugs, but people also aren't looking back to other functions that may have stopped working right.

Promising a stable release in Janurary is opening yourself up for a lot of peoples disappointments, that's exactly why I have become so disallusioned with ZC, because I expected it long ago and it never came.

[Nicholas Steel]

Fortunately, the only people who actually matter in ZC development is us. I wish that people would actually test the betas out rathr than ask or new features, but hey, can't do anything about that.

We're working on it though, so please try to be patient just a LITTLE longer.
lock and/or remove the suggestion forums in all zelda classic areas.