Crunch Time

[jman2050]

Can we make it before the end of the year? Now I'm not so sure. I'll o the best I can though, though it's hard since my family is preparing a move. Expect a new beta sometime soon that addresses some of the more prevailing concerns.

Meanwhile, for everyone, NO bug is too small. If it's an inconsistency in gameplay, a tiny glitch that won't be noticable to anyone else, or whatever, REPORT IT. We want ZC 2.5 to be as polished as possible, and that won't happen until we can get all the little kinks out. And remember, the important part in quest compatibility is compatibility with 2.10 quests, NOT with beta quests. So make sure that your 2.10 stuff works exactly as it does in 2.10, and if not, report it AS A BUG in the appropriate forum. We're running out of time, so make sure to start testing aggressively, and hopefully the end-of-year deadline will be met. If not, then we're certainly not gonna wait till February or March to release a new version if that's what you all were thinking :P

[_L_]

Hey, other developers, here are some long-standing bugs that I have no idea how to fix:

* Smart scrolling walkability detection bug!
* NES movement move-while-charging bug.
* Charging Link sprites don't animate in-game!
* Script bug #1: 'this' can't be used in functions (solved by making it so that 'this' always points to the FFC running the script.)
* Script bug #2: multiple instances of one script causes problems with variables.
* Mac OS X tile paste crash.
* Mac OS X fullscreen->windowed crash.

Also, the following features are unimplemented:

* Cane of Byrna's orbiting magic.
* L2 Amulet.
* When "More Sounds" is checked, the Lens of Truth sound effects play when the Lens is toggled on or off.
* More String Editor stuff. (I'm doing this.)

Also, we're going to need to have:

* Default jumping and charging Link tiles in the appropriate dat file.
* Default enemy tiles in for all of the new enemies in the appropriate dat file.
* Default item tiles for all of the new items.
* Default effects tiles for Nayru's Love, Cane of Byrna, Hover Boots and Fire Magic.
* Default sound effects for WAV_ZN1DINSFIRE and WAV_ZN1FARORESWIND.
* An updated zquest.txt.

P.S: What a coincidence... I'm moving house this week as well.

[Dlbrooks33]

Default jumping and charging Link tiles in the appropriate dat file.
Radien took care of that.

Default item tiles for all of the new items.

I took care of the Cane (Slashing and All) and the Feather.

[*b*]

Can we make it before the end of the year? Now I'm not so sure.

I'll say it again: TAKE YOUR TIME. Focus on making 2.5 the best release ever, and not on pressuring yourselves to do as much as you can as quick as you can with a deadline you yourselves set. I seriously doubt it's even possible you'll get all the bugs before December 31, 23:59:59. Just don't even try

That said, I'd be happy to help with any graphics you may need for the upcoming release

[Shoelace]

I say take your time. Now that you said you were making the dialogue editor, I want it bad. Really, really bad I mean. Like so bad that I would throw a fit if it was not in 2.5 as I stopped EotM because I am waiting for it. Anyways, I promise that next time you make a beta release I will test the whole game of HoD and report any small bug. I couldn't test it on this beta because of the raft and mirror shield bug.

Anyways, take your time, I think February is a good looking date if there isn't anything big after the dialogue editor added. But I know you will release it before then. And I will be bug testing like crazy as I am almost done with my graphics update in EotM, so now I have time to test. :P

[_L_]

I say take your time. Now that you said you were making the dialogue editor, I want it bad. Really, really bad I mean. Like so bad that I would throw a fit if it was not in 2.5 as I stopped EotM because I am waiting for it.

Well, there's really 2-4 parts to the dialogue editor as we imagine it:

1) The dialogue editor.
2) The combo type that displays a message when you press A next to it.
3) The as-yet unimplemented ZScript command void ShowMessage(int m).
4) The item property where you choose the string that is displayed when you pick up the item.

Right now, I've jiggered up the normal String Editor such that, by inserting obscure numerical codes and backslashes* (for example \1\5\12) within the string's text, you can change the text colour and text output speed of portions of the string itself. Also, some codes allow you to dynamically set Link's HP, magic and rupees, and play sound effects of your choice. Furthermore, you can pick the upper-left tile of a 2x2 frame for the string, and toggle the translucency. Additionally, you can pick the sound effect (normally SFX_MSG) that plays as each letter of the message is "typed".

What I have yet to do is make "If"-style codes that switch to another string if Link has or has not got an equipment item, some rupees, or something else. Also, decisions (yes/no choices) might be a bit too much work.

Also, fonts. Because many of the fonts have different widths and heights, you can't switch fonts within a string itself. (For what it's worth, I doubt any Zelda game allowed this either.) So, you can only choose one font for the whole string. Also, because many of the fonts have different widths and heights, it's likely that the number of characters per line will change if you use a different font. Thus, it's going to be a bit tricky to implement.

I have decided not to implement scrolling textbox text on the basis that only four Zelda games have it: Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, and the Oracles. In all of the others, the textbox text never scrolls. You may not immediately believe this, but see for yourself!

Lastly, positioning. There doesn't seem to be any point to altering the X position of a string, so only the Y position of the string can be altered.

* This is because I wanted the markup codes to take up as little space within the string (as it is being edited) as possible. Rest assured that these codes will be copiously documented.

P.S: What does EotM stand for? "Eyes of the Medusa", a quest that blends Miyamoto's Hyrulean mythos with the legends of ancient Greece? Or "Egg of the Monkey", a retelling of Journey to the West in Zelda format?

P.P.S: I, being both youthfully energetic and highly ambitious (http://www.armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=58441), would quite like to break the "2.5 in time for Jan 1" promise that someone made.

[Petoe]

I'm a bit torn here... :p

I don't want you guys to rush it, but I don't want to see it delayed by any more months either. A new stable ZC is just needed so badly.
Is it necessary to add a dialogue editor in to 2.5? Can't that wait? Or any other new features? Just finish the features that are unfinished and fix the bugs and there we have a perfectly fine and fantastic ZC. Sigh... can it be so hard??

[Imprisoned]

Yeah, please don't rush it! We don't want a ZC 2.10 with just some new features, but still all the bugs!

*b* is right, take your time.

I would like to see ZC 2.5 on February 23, because that's my birthday :D

I recommend focusing on smashing the bugs, for now.

[Shoelace]

Yeah, awesome I love you now because of the string editor. *drools* Anyways, about the font size in the same string, I don't mind, I don't think it is that big of deal, however, you it doesn't change font in any Zelda game. Wind Waker does though. :P Don't mind though. As long as you can change the color in the same string. So we can do OoT clues where the key words are in red and such.

[Imprisoned]

Changing the colour would be alright to me...
When you open the string editor, it would say something like

"BUY SOMETHIN WILL YA!"

Then you could select a color from a small dropdown menu with colored lines, then just click to a letter and it will change the color. Then just click a button or something with "Return to string writing". Just my thoughts.

BTW, could it be possible to create strings with 4 lines?

[beefster09]

Please don't cram. When it's out, it's out. Deadline = BUGS, BUGS, BUGS.
All I have to say is "stop adding new features by a deadline so you can zero in on the bugs, but still finish what you're working on."
I'm mostly willing to wait. Plus, Neofirst needs more time.

[ShadowTiger]

I still don't really see a reason to have this released by December. People can wait. They've got other things to do in the meantime. This is crunch time for schoolgoers as well, as this week is finals week for a lot of people, or midterms week. Conversely, it's also potentially a winter vacation (Christmas break?) for a lot of people, so they have time to test or build as well while others don't. Still, the point here is, there's no valuable purpose in rushing other than to say "Christmas = ZC's All Important Release!" If you released it in March or something, the only difference would be the date, a distinct lack of bugs, and people having more content in their quests to upgrade.

[Nimono]

2.5 Released by Dec. 31 = Disaster

:( That's about as good as I can put it. Seriously, you've only got about 2 weeks left before the end of the month. That may seem like plenty of time, but get this: EVERY SINGLE DAY GOES BY VERY QUICKLY THESE DAYS. It may SEEM like enough time, but when you factor in that 24 hours is up really quickly these days, you're left with one thing:

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO FINISH 2.5 THIS YEAR. Speed is NOT of the essence this time. Quit rushing yourselves. Give the people what they ask for, like the Dialogue Editor. By the way, if you DO put a limited enemy editor into 2.5, please allow us to select what tiles the enemies will use when the rule "Use New Enemy Tiles" is checked. You don't know how much it bugs me that I can't use that rule in my CGBZ quests because I'd have to do a TON of moving tiles and combos because most of my tiles are on pages 6 and up... That, and Pure requires some movement, too. What's going to happen when the enemies require pages 6-100? People would have to do a WHOLE LOT of scrolling in certain tilesets just to get to their dungeon and overworld tiles if they decide to use all the enemies ZC has to offer.

[Eliwood]

As a fellow developer, I'm going to take the middle around and say that both sides have merits. It's good to set deadlines, and I set deadlines for myself all the time to keep the project going. At the same time, I think that deadlines should be targets for completion, and not something your life depends upon. I too am planning to issue a major release of my project around Christmas, and while I am on schedule, I still treat it like a target deadline. I won't die if I don't meet it, and instead, I just push it back by a little, let the people know what's going on (just like you are doing right here), and that's that. As long as the people are informed, there's no harm done.

So in the end, I think that you should strike a balance between taking your time to ensure quality and meeting personal deadlines. Nobody's entirely right or wrong here.

[Tygore]

I still stand by my previous statement of setting the new goal to be the Chinese New Year.

[The_Amaster]

I say, like all the others, to take your time. There really isn't any rush(Although I'd like to see it before, say, April) Quality trumps speed. I would also say that you should implement the new featurs BEFORE debugging, only because you may spend time wiping out bugs, only to discover that the new features open up a whole load of new ones. Best to do it all in one shot.

[Lotus_Eater]

I just want it to work, that's it, while it would be nice to see it soon, if it doesn't work right, then what the hell is the point, besides, I am sure everyone who can is playing Twilight Princess anyways, and if they aren't well shame on them.

[Nicholas Steel]

if you look at how jman worded it you will see he worded it so as to make the situation look drasticaly worse then what it really is and as such most people posting here in this thread are purely making him laugh... nuff said.

[Imprisoned]

By Lotus_Eater
Besides, I am sure everyone who can is playing Twilight Princess.
I agree, after christmas many many people have a Wii (except me, they're all sold out :() and possibly, Twilight Princess. You could put "ZC 2.5 Released" in everywhere on the forums, but the thread would be empty. Just don't rush it... and not even Chinese new year is a good goal... just calm down, and take your time.

[beefster09]

I still stand by my previous statement of setting the new goal to be the Chinese New Year.

I say St. Patrick's day at the latest possible deadline, though. How about we use Chinese new year as a feature deadline. Then until St. Patrick's day, we (devs?) focus solely on bugs.

[Petoe]

Lol, just let the developers decide the deadline okay? :p

I still have to wonder what's the obsession with all these new features. Am I the only one who wants to see a full ZC release ASAP? What's wrong with ZC at its current state? Just fix the unfinished features/fix bugs and there's a brilliant new ZC for this year's end... or if still bugs remain at that time, then for beginning of 2007. Sigh...

[DarkFlameWolf]

Well, all I have to say here is, the more time they take, the more Lost Isle will be postponed. As it stands, Lost Isle is meant for the next generation of ZC versions, but cannot be played at this present moment in time with all these bugs. You'd have to cheat at this point just to play it completely because of inherent ZC bugs. So if 2.5 is being held off because of adding all these 'cool new features,' and bugs are still present, then Lost Isle must be held off too. Its unavoidable if that's the case. Lost Isle could technically be done by early next year, but if there isn't a solid bug-free ZC to run it off of, then we have no choice but to sit on it until there is one.

[Imprisoned]

Wolfie, this is an important thread and all you talk about is LOST ISLE!?!?

[Lotus_Eater]

Actually the Mana tileset I am working on is also dependant on the release of 2.5. Ah well. It's best to have it stable than have your game crash every 5 minutes. Now I am off to figure out how the heck to make a good custom subscreen.

Later,
Lotus

[Petoe]

Imprisoned, Wolfie's post may seem like a selfish "I wanna see a release quick so I can release my quest" but I'm sure her point is that Zc is fine the way it is currently, so why add all those new damn features because that results in even more bugs and even more delays. hate to be so repetitive and I apologize for that, but even though the dialogue editor and features like that are awesome, why can't they wait? Just fix the current bugs and features and we have the best ZC release ever. There will be plenty of ZC versions after that so all those features that wouldn't make it to the 2.5 would surely make it to the next Zelda Classics.

I'm sure we all have our selfish agendas... some say "no need to hurry, take your time, I dont care when the new ZC is out because my quest wont be out in a long time" and then there are poeple who may say "hurry it so my quest can be released!!" but the most important reason I am crying for the stable ZC asap is that I just think ZC community badly needs one. If the devs decide to announce "okay, we will still add some features and release the full ZC whenever it is ready" it starts to seem like there will never be a stable Zc then, lol. :p

[The_Amaster]

I think they should implement all the new features before releasing 2.5 not because I want them, but because it rather defeats the purpose of a stable version to release it and then immediatly launch into beta testing/bug squashing for the next one. I thought one of the points of this was to have a version that could just sit for a while and be, give us all a breather. My opinion is to get the new features over with, release it, and TAKE A BREAK.

[ShadowTiger]

@ & With Petoe: Lots of stuff to agree and disagree with. Overall, I'd love to agree with you, but on nothing that's been said. Really, I think that now that some sort of release date has been introduced, it's no longer an issue of just adding more and more features to be all bugged in. (No offense. No grammar either. :blah: ) Since there's a release date set on the table which can be moved back as necessary, there actually -IS- a focus on bug squashing this time. Eliwood's post is a very good indicator of some sort of progress, as he stated a basic summation of the process. Hopefully the bug squashing will become the priority now that a release date is set. The more new features are introduced, the less likely that date will be met, so I'm sure we all know what the focus will be now.

Hopefully.

[beefster09]

Okay, finish what we've all been waiting for, (dialogue, enemy and item editors) and then focus on the bugs.
And PLEASE, push back the deadline! I don't want a lame/buggy ZC.

[jman2050]

The thing is, I am confident enough in my abilities and the abiliies of my companion developers to have a stable version of ZC out before the end of the year. I also have another reason for setting such a deadline, though many of you will probably be very unhappy at said reason.

Moving and vacation has been difficult for progress, but starting with he release of beta 16 (which will be soon), I'll ramp up my side of the development to incredible proportions. _L_ is doing he best he can, though I'm sure he wants an extended deadline (which right now, isn't happening). DN will also be doing the best he can once his hiatus is over. We're gonna be clicking on al cylinders, and though I can no longer GUARANTEE a New Year's release date, I can say it's pretty likely.

We need your help too though, which is why I made this topic in the first place. Instead, it became a place of petty bickering, with no one paying attention to said purpose of the topic. So instead of arguing about release dates, let me and DN and _L_ and every other developer argue about the merits of a New Year's release, while you all do what you're here to do and find some bugs and make sure quest compatibility is maintained. Doing anything else doesn't help us any.

Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I'm slightl stressed out right now

[Zelda_Warrior]

I say leave out the enemy and item editors for a long time. They'll make a lot of bugs because those are almost editors inside of editors. The dialogue editor would be ok, though. I really think bugs are more important than features though. Sure the smaller features can be added but adding item and enemy editors is way to much to ask for while still asking for no bugs.

EDIT: You posted 6 minutes before me and my post wasn't showing up until just now

[Freedom]

The thing is, I am confident enough in my abilities and the abiliies of my companion developers to have a stable version of ZC out before the end of the year. I also have another reason for setting such a deadline, though many of you will probably be very unhappy at said reason.

Moving and vacation has been difficult for progress, but starting with he release of beta 16 (which will be soon), I'll ramp up my side of the development to incredible proportions. _L_ is doing he best he can, though I'm sure he wants an extended deadline (which right now, isn't happening). DN will also be doing the best he can once his hiatus is over. We're gonna be clicking on al cylinders, and though I can no longer GUARANTEE a New Year's release date, I can say it's pretty likely.

We need your help too though, which is why I made this topic in the first place. Instead, it became a place of petty bickering, with no one paying attention to said purpose of the topic. So instead of arguing about release dates, let me and DN and _L_ and every other developer argue about the merits of a New Year's release, while you all do what you're here to do and find some bugs and make sure quest compatibility is maintained. Doing anything else doesn't help us any.

Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I'm slightl stressed out right now


Doesn't sound harsh at all to me.
I've wanted just one thing since the release of 2.10, and that's a stable version, but every time one of these threads gets started you have a handful of people wanting stable and the rest wanting more more more.
It got to me to the point I made an ass of myself bitching about nothing but bug filled betas, I'm wondering what's kept you from pulling your hair out.
The truth is, the devs just need to ignore what everyone says, and do what they do, and the rest of us will have to live with it.
I agree Jman, I think everyone should just STFU and beta test.

[Petoe]

I agree Jman, I think everyone should just STFU and beta test.

Yeah, agreed. I will be doing tons of testing once b16 is released.

I will definitely shut up now because after readin jman's comment I am confident that he knows what he is doing and that he won't be influnced by people's opinions and cries for more features/quick release date.

[jman2050]

Well *looks at developer's log* I might get this done before the end of the year if certain deveLopers stop adding new features that wiLL need to be debugged and tested thoroughLy before reLease...

Looks Like me and this deveLoper need to discuss some things :P

[Lotus_Eater]

Did I sense a hint in that post jman?

[DarkFlameWolf]

Do I sense inner turmoil? :P

[Freedom]

Well *looks at developer's log* I might get this done before the end of the year if certain deveLopers stop adding new features that wiLL need to be debugged and tested thoroughLy before reLease...

Looks Like me and this deveLoper need to discuss some things :P

another bug....
You missed two in the first Line ;)


oops...
bug in the bug report... make that three

[Moresco]

you are correct about multiple height fonts. even games that i know have multiple fonts in them, do not use them in the same line or in a dialogue routine. what would be the sense of starting this sentence in courier and ending it in times new roman? that would look stupid, imo.

oh and the text doesn't "scroll", the first row is cleared, the rows after are copied back a position vertically when the "more" code is encountered. pretty much anyway. or basically what i mean is, it's all rewritten before another video update occurs. it happens fast and makes you think things are "scrolling".

[koopa]

Wolfie, this is an important thread and all you talk about is LOST ISLE!?!?

Speaking as a developer, Lost isle is important ... not least because getting it to run as smootly as DFW and Peteo would like would be a strong sign of a stable ZC. It's one of the largest and most complex quests I've ever seen and being able to run that is a good benchmark.

My suggestion: we release something anyway, if it's not ready then we call it beta xxx, if it is we call it "2.5". At least the raft bug will be gone again, the HCP item will animate properly, ...
I'd personally say there's nothing wrong with regularly releasing betas, we developers should together perhaps agree on a time of "no new features until we've debugged the old ones". I'd say the currently under development ones (item, enemy, and dialogue editors) should still be included though.

[Nicholas Steel]

another bug....
You missed two in the first Line ;)


oops...
bug in the bug report... make that three
its ok to exclude the L's with in *

[C-Dawg]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm starting to think it's time to just get things stable and not sweat the additional features like a dialouge editor. Why? Because, with a stable scripting system, users can take over some of those tasks and take the burden off of the developers. We havn't got a really robust scripting community yet, but we're training the first generation. Hopefully we'll start building up such a community soon enough.

[koopa]

Yes and no. When scripting came out, the point was raised that ZC should remain something the average non-programmer can use. I agree there, and I'm all for a dialogue editor. Besides, the actual coloured/sized fonts will take the same code to implement in ZC whether they're selected via a push-button in Zquest or via a script.

I'm sure large parts of the community would prefer a dialogue editor to script-only strings.

The question, once again, is which features should have which priorities. Perhaps making scriptable strings first and then designing the editor? But it's not me that's doing that part or ZC and I think it's only polite to leave the decision to those who are putting in the work there.

[C-Dawg]

Right Koopa, but a well-written ZQuest script can be as easy for users as something in the game. For instance, if someone scripts up a code that displays a string when the player presses A in a particular screen location, or close to the FFC, then the user doesn't have to know how the code works; they just specify the string as an FFC D0-7 variable, and place the FFC on the screen.

I don't think that ZScript can currently display strings, and THAT should be added, but you see what I mean? ZScripts, once written, are pretty user friendly already.

[Lotus_Eater]

I'd really like to see a Dialog and Enemy Editor, as well as a perked up Item editor, but if that means we can't get a stable release than what is the point. (Though I'd really really like an Enemy Editor)
Also if we can do it with scripting, and someone will write and distribute that script and help people like me (scripting retarded) to use it and make it do what I want, then I don't see why it is imperative that it be present.

[Freedom]

I'd really like to see a Dialog and Enemy Editor, as well as a perked up Item editor, but if that means we can't get a stable release than what is the point. (Though I'd really really like an Enemy Editor)
Also if we can do it with scripting, and someone will write and distribute that script and help people like me (scripting retarded) to use it and make it do what I want, then I don't see why it is imperative that it be present.

I prefer scripting-ly challenged ;)

BUT, You're right, what's the point of all the bells and whistles in the world IF there isn't a STABLE engine that you can actually release a quest with.

[Lotus_Eater]

Actually they can screw the enemy editor as long as they allow me to extend the enemy tiles and specify my own enemy tiles. Heck even if you have to extend all the enemy tiles to extend them. That'd work good for me.

Yeah and stable would be good. Anyways, I think jman has made up his mind, so I wait for the next beta with beta'd breath :)

[Moresco]

As long as I can use script to edit whatever, write my own routines to give my game design a little more freedom, I'm happy. A dialogue editor is nice, but I can code a dialogue routine with the right script access as easy as pie.

The great thing about that, I think, like a few of you have said, would be that the developers would then be free to work on the real meat and potatoes while scripters like myself can crank out scripts/functions that plug-in and do what the masses are asking for.

At least it would give me something to do. Anyway all of this makes me think of this topic, seems like a similar idea:
http://www.armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=95169

[Aranda]

Don't forget, if you need a extension, you can use the chinese new years day.

[koopa]

C-Dawg, I see your point and that sort of thing I'm fully ok with. But for instance adding the roc's feather, ice rod, etc. as an item instead of having it solely as a script is in my opinion a difference.

Also, if you can add a "sword 5" in a list, "edit" and then set "damage done: 100 HP" like that that's a lot easier than a script and it's this sort of feature I wouldn't like to miss.

And again, whether we add a sword 5 over scripts or over a dialog is the same coding work (plus the dialog in quest in one case, the script parsing code in the other) and that coding in ZC is where I see the greatest bug potential.

[_L_]

Hey guys, sorry about being away for a week.

There's been a bit of a problem with my Internet connection recently. Let's just say that my ability to work on Zelda Classic is going to be a bit ...crimped, for awhile. I'll be doing what I can, but something tells me that the release version is not very likely to make it out this year.

[Nimono]

Well, _L_, people seem to be right in what they're saying about you. We're most likely not going to get a release this year because you're adding more and more new features into ZC (Not that I hate that- In fact, I LOVE that! I could care less about WHEN 2.5 comes out as long as it has a lot of new features as is stable.). Then there's the fact that you're going against the words of other developers (or so I've heard...)...

Guys, why in the world are you talking about things from YOUR abilities? You say "We don't need a dialogue editor because I can make a script to force a string to come up.". That's just plain rude. You need to stop thinking about yourselves for once. Most of us (myself included) CAN'T SCRIPT TO SAVE OUR LIVES! So what good is it going to do if you have to SCRIPT in order to do what the planned dialogue editor is supposed to do? That'd break up ZC users EVEN MORE. There'd be the eliteists who can script and think they're better than those who can't, there'd be the people who can't script who get tormented by those who can, and then there'd be the people who can script, but actually try to HELP those who can't script (though not they way they'd want). These days, you guys are getting SO into scripting, that you're forgetting that NOT ONLY CAN SOME PEOPLE NOT SCRIPT, BUT SOME PEOPLE CAN'T LEARN IT OR SIMPLY REFUSE TO LEARN IT! Because of this, when someone asks for a simple script that they have no clue how to make, all they get is a message telling them to learn ZScript and make it themselves. What kind of people are you? That's the kind of attitude that could push people away, because that's not exactly helping.... If I knew how to script and someone asked for a script, I'd find out if they knew how to script. If they didn't, I wouldn't tell them to learn how to script and make it themselves, no matter how easy it would be to make. No, I'd do what I always do and actually help the person out.

Enough of that ranting. I don't want you people to hate me. But I DO what my point clear- Not everyone can script, so making all planned editors be scripting-specific wouldn't be the right choice. Now, if they were made as actual editors, then THAT would be the better idea, because then EVERYONE can use it. And that's what you want- Accessibility for EVERYONE. (Scripts are the only exception because they're supposed to do stuff that's HIGHLY advanced...)

[DarkFlameWolf]

So not even a semi-stable beta 16 coming out?

[Rakki]

Well said, Pikaguy. Of course, I don't see focusing on scripting as such a big problem, as long as regular Joes are able to use them, too. You know, some way to export items, FFC scripts, etc. would be nice. And I don't simply mean, exporting the script to a text file and passing that around. Being able to contain an entire FFC or Z item in a little package would be perfect, because then people could code items that'll never get put in, like Roc's Feather (before it became a real item, finally), and then give a graphic for the item, set what Link looks like while using it (even if it's a new graphic), etc. Exporting it would copy the script and specific tiles it uses and put them into a single file which could then be imported into another quest. The end-goal for Importing that I have in mind is that it would just add the tiles one-by-one to wherever you specified in the tiles page and then link the script to that. Of course, some dynamicism would have to be added to scripts referencing specific tiles on the tiles page, so, that might be a bit difficult.

(Note: What I mean by adding tiles one-by-one isn't simply asking you where to put every single tile that a script uses, since it could be possible for a script to use hundreds. What I was suggesting was that you specify where to start, and then it just overwrites all the blank tiles in-a-row that it can, until it comes across a non-blank tile, at which point it'd prompt you for where to continue placing tiles. Of course, one-by-one in its true sense could be a useful way to add the tiles from a script too, so, maybe that could also be possible.)

[Dark Nation]

Don't worry; a beta 16 will be out before 2.5 comes out.

[C-Dawg]

Guys, why in the world are you talking about things from YOUR abilities? You say "We don't need a dialogue editor because I can make a script to force a string to come up.". That's just plain rude. You need to stop thinking about yourselves for once. Most of us (myself included) CAN'T SCRIPT TO SAVE OUR LIVES!

Stop whining. Scripts, once written, can be loaded and used by anyone. They don't have to know how to code themselves, just how to apply the code, and that's just as easy as doing anything else in ZQuest. Can you set up a DMAP? Then you can apply a ZScript.

[Shoelace]

Hey I don't know the first thing about ZScript and doing that, but I think it is fantastic. I agree with C-Dawg on this. You can just use the scripts that other people use, if you really want scripts in your game.

But I do think the Dialogue Editor is needed for 2.5. I don't want them to wait for another version after that because that would be a while. Ever since Jman wrote that thread about the Dialogue Editor back in August I wanted it so bad and even stopped my game progress to await it.

[The_Amaster]

You know, you guys all say that scripts can just be passed around, but of all that talk, most(not all) of you than say a varient of "script it yourself"
(A quick aside, I could learn to script if I had an example, but my browser doesnt display scripts right, and I dont know how to view them in ZQuest.)
I gotta agree mostly with Pikaguy on this one, minus the maniacal ranting.
As for the whole "L is adding too many features" thing, well, Jman did the same thing when he came in. It was only after the promise(Jman's, I might add) for a 2.5 by the end of the year that all of L's features became a bad thing.

[Shoelace]

I know, I sort of feel sorry for _L_ because he is just trying to make ZC better. He has been working his butt off giving people what they want and he has done it in a short amount of time. If _L_ and others continue after ZC 2.5, I know ZC 3.0 will be off the charts, jaw-dropping. But yeah, I really want _L_ to do his thing, but I do want to see 2.5 finished by at least the beginning of February.

It is just everyone has been waiting for a stable version for years. And that is why everyone is at each other's throats. They are thinking if _L_ adds new things, it will never come out, and maybe that 2.5 will not be stable.

But I trust that it will be stable. And I do what _L_ to continue his thing, because he is doing an amazing job.

[_L_]

It is ironic, isn't it? My induction into ZC developer-hood a mere few months before the big feature freeze-up was scheduled?

For the record, most of the new features I've added since b15 are small trinkets, like the Peril Beam scroll, the Four-Way Ladder and the Charge Rings. I still intend to implement drowning and bottomless pits, because I feel that Roc's Feather implies their existence. And the foundation of the dialogue/string editor is in place, bugs notwithstanding.

[Lotus_Eater]

So you're going to give us a nice new beta tomorrow right, so I can play with new features :)

I like new features, they make me happy, especially when they help me reach my goals.

[Rakki]

Don't forget to put in a combo type to counter gravity in sidescrolling rooms too, _L_, otherwise those'll be useless.

[Petoe]

I should just shut up but my blood is boiling right now. >_<
It was obviously a huge mistake to accept L to the developement team before 2.5's release. He has done amazing job with those awesome features and items, sure, but what's the point in adding them if it causes so much instability and makes the 2.5 release seem like a far away dream now? Sigh, oh how I wish L would just take it easy for a while and let the developers release a stable beta so we all can breathe a sigh of relief. Yeah, ZC is a free project you guys do on your free time for us "progmrammingly challenged" game builders so you devs really owe nothing to us and no oblications to do anything, but just sit down for a while and think about it: There has been no real stable release in YEARS. That has to hurt ZC, and it is making some respected questmakers frustrated and ready to leave, like Freedom for example, and I'm starting to be on the same boat too.

It may sound like I don't have faith in your (developers) abilities, but every time something new is added, loads of bugs appear. And with all these additions that still are planned for 2.5 everyone with brains surely realizes that a STABLE 2.5 is not possible in a long time, and I mean STABLE.

And you Shoelace, can't you just keep building your quest and add those dialogues later? And if it would take too much time for the editor to be added, well just live with it and use scripts or good old strings! Don't make it all about your quest and "oh how I cant build my quest unless there isn't a dialogue editor, sniff".

[The_Amaster]

Petoe, I agree with you on several points, and dissagree on others, but one of the things you said was the reason for MY personal wish for the new features to be put in now.
There has been no real stable release in YEARS.
And there may not be a stable release for year/s to come. Which is why I think we should get these (reletivily) simple features out of the way, rather than wait forever.

[Freedom]

Petoe, I agree with you on several points, and dissagree on others, but one of the things you said was the reason for MY personal wish for the new features to be put in now.
And there may not be a stable release for year/s to come. Which is why I think we should get these (reletivily) simple features out of the way, rather than wait forever.

Yea right, let's just all wait for a few more years in hopes we get a stable release, cause we might not get all the features we want otherwise.

Just like the dog that raced by the first bone he saw in hopes of getting a bigger one, and ended up with none.

I've been beta testing these betas for two years waiting for a stable release, and the betas coming out now are the worst I've ever seen.
I'm not building quests or beta testing any more until I see the focus change to working towards a stable release over adding more more more.
Other folks can do what they want, but I've had enough of it.
I didn't get involved in this because I wanted to beta test, I got involved to build quests, and it's gotten to the point that is no longer possible.

That might sound like a bad attitude, but it's also FACT.
It doesn't matter how many cool features a program has, if it doesn't work to serve it's basic function, and ZC hasn't done that for a good while now.
It's way past time to stop adding more more more and FIX what is there.

[Shoelace]

And you Shoelace, can't you just keep building your quest and add those dialogues later? And if it would take too much time for the editor to be added, well just live with it and use scripts or good old strings! Don't make it all about your quest and "oh how I cant build my quest unless there isn't a dialogue editor, sniff".


I am not making it all about my quest, I am just telling my side of the story. I was writing the reason why I want the Dialogue Editor so badly. I didn't mean to get you mad, but I feel strongly about this.

Since you asked, I will answer. I have restarted my quest over 3 times because 2.11 kept getting upgraded. I want this game to be good and use all of the features in 2.11. And since my game is almost 100% storyline driven, when jman mentioned the Dialogue Editor, I knew right away I would restart my things again. So I decided to stop making my game until 2.11 or now 2.5 is released so I wouldn't have to deal with redoing things. Again the main reason was the Dialogue Editor and because I got sick of upgrading my quests. So I stopped making it.

I still think it is needed and I will stand by it.

But of course I am a huge supporter of a STABLE release. I disagree with Amaster42 when he said that a stable release was years to come. I think it is more like months (1-3) to come (which I know doesn't make a lot people happy either, but it is realistic). But yeah, the goal of the new years may not be met, but the devoplers are doing a great job and getting all of the features out before the big bug testing. I think all of their resolutions for New Years is no more additions. Get the ones that you are doing right now out, but after New Years, that is it. The Cut off date. I think that would be a good way to do it.

But I think this debate won't be over until the devolpers shut us up with the STABLE release.

[Nicholas Steel]

But of course I am a huge supporter of a STABLE release. I disagree with Amaster42 when he said that a stable release was years to come. I think it is more like months (1-3) to come (which I know doesn't make a lot people happy either, but it is realistic). But yeah, the goal of the new years may not be met, but the dev

that was what everyone was told months ago... IT SHOULD BE F!#@ING OUT BY NOW!

[The_Amaster]

I'm not saying we add any new features now. That would be insane, I must admit. But the ones that are already in progress should be completed.

And for the record, I agree that our focus now needs to be de-bugging. I think somewhere along a 70-30 split focus on bugs-features would be ideal.

[Shoelace]

franpa, will when they said a new years release date, I was thinking it wasn't going to happen. So I actually thought they were going to release it in January because I know how releases dates are. They aren't like official Video game deadlines, they are goals. Goals that they try to reach. I was hoping for a stable release in December but I was realistic thinking it would be January if not February.

[koopa]

It was obviously a huge mistake to accept L to the developement team before 2.5's release.

There I must disagree.

I don't think you meant it "like that" either Peteo - but, EVERYONE,
yes there are things that could have been done differently in ZC development but you can't blame it all on _L_ .

[elise]

Look whats happening at this moment with ZC .......The zelda questbase is down for almost a year .........the 2.10 bugfree version everybody asked for and could be done in only a short time ( that was what was told ) never heard from it again ...............the beta releases are filled with bugs and new features constantly.............. so questmakers stop making quests .......what will we have at the end ...........maybe sometime there will be a new stable release but no questmakers around to make a quest and no players cause there is never a new quest in the questdatabase .........We can't blame the developers they do it all in their free time .........we can't blame the questmakers everytime they work on a quest they can throw half away what they made because of a new release that messes up all the work they have done till then............we can't blame the players they found other games to play because there is nothing new to gain here ..............No we can't blame nobody but it's still a sad process to see happening :shrug:

[Lotus_Eater]

Perhaps you are right Elise, but it is rather hard to say, some people will come back and play with ZC again after a couple years. It has happened to many people. I think the developers are just doing the best they can, but I also think that maybe they are shooting for targets that are too far out of reach just now. They've got a hookshot, but keep aiming for the Longshot target. And maybe they'll hit it. I'll stick around for a while and see, but I also have other projects I am working on alongside of this one, so we'll see what happens

[Shoelace]

Yeah, I know Elise. I was really mad that 2.10 wasn't stable. I was madder at myself that I switched to it, and couldn't go back. Same thing with 2.11. I switched to it when it became semi-stable, but then it went downhill from there. But I was okay with it because it is a beta and that is what happens. But I was just mad at myself for moving to it, because now there are bugs that prevent me from doing things. The Bugs and the constant upgrading made me finally stop as I couldn't go back to 2.10. But I do believe that their goal is a STABLE 2.5 release, and I believe there will be. Because if there isn't, there will be a major backlash. Probably even me being one of them.

[The_Amaster]

Well, you can't really say that our fan base is declining so much. Sure we've lost some people, but were getting new members almost constantly, and those are just the one who bother to join the forum.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Shoelace, you can still upgrade your quest without starting over. That's what Lost Isle is doing. Hell, it started off as a beta 183 quest! It transfered overly nicely to a 2.11 quest and right now its running off of a (albeit EXTREMELY BUGGY, CAN'T FINISH QUEST WITHOUT CHEATING) beta 16. But it seems the quests can survive the upgrades to each new beta. (unless they decide to totally change the way the quest is loaded/is read/or wahtever in Zquest. In which case Lost Isle is screwed and you're never going to see it.) But you don't have to quit because 'oh, I want a dialogue editor! *pouts*' As proven by my quest, it can survive the rigors of upgrading, you just have to roll with the punches. What it can't stand though....is the bugs. >_>

[Shoelace]

No, you aren't understanding what I meant... I mean, my game is 100% storyline driven. Meaning if there are new ideas, new features, they will be added to the storyline which will change the game. New features = me redoing things. So I kept redoing things as the features came. Then when I heard about the Dialogue Editor I stopped because I knew I would change the storyline to fit things. Roc's Feather came in too, so there is another change that I may do (I am iffy about that one as it is limited right now).

All I meant was if the Dialogue editor didn't make it, It would make me sad and mad at MYSELF for stopping to wait for it. But this is all so I don't have to redo things again and again.

[DarkFlameWolf]

If you want to postpone your quest because of that, its your choice. Just worried by the time you start it up again, you'll be worn out from waiting. :P

[Moresco]

Well for me, I script things for people because I like helping out. If someone wants something, and I believe I can get it done, I'll do it. Not everyone feeds you the "go learn to script yourself" crap. Scripting isn't easy, and not everyone gets it, but to be able to "plug-in" a script is just as good as having it hardcoded into the software IMO so long as it compiles efficiently. Why, you could get many more scripts out of scripters than you could get features programmed by busy developers who should be making things stable instead of scripting in "Link does this this this etc..with his sword now!"

Just my thoughts, I'm sometimes wrong but that's what I'm thinking at the moment.

[Freedom]

Shoelace, you can still upgrade your quest without starting over. That's what Lost Isle is doing. Hell, it started off as a beta 183 quest! It transfered overly nicely to a 2.11 quest and right now its running off of a (albeit EXTREMELY BUGGY, CAN'T FINISH QUEST WITHOUT CHEATING) beta 16. But it seems the quests can survive the upgrades to each new beta. (unless they decide to totally change the way the quest is loaded/is read/or wahtever in Zquest. In which case Lost Isle is screwed and you're never going to see it.) But you don't have to quit because 'oh, I want a dialogue editor! *pouts*' As proven by my quest, it can survive the rigors of upgrading, you just have to roll with the punches. What it can't stand though....is the bugs. >_>

Then I have two questions about this....
Where did you get beta 16, I haven't seen it.

And how many FFC's have you got in your game, because I have dozens and dozens and they are all screwed, and the new flag system doesn't even work to repair them.
How many times should I redo these, they are quite a lot of work, just to be wiped out with a next beta, and I've already had to completely redo them before, only to have them trashed again now.

Link can fly, but he can't even walk.

[Nicholas Steel]

Yea right, let's just all wait for a few more years in hopes we get a stable release, cause we might not get all the features we want otherwise.

Just like the dog that raced by the first bone he saw in hopes of getting a bigger one, and ended up with none.

I've been beta testing these betas for two years waiting for a stable release, and the betas coming out now are the worst I've ever seen.
I'm not building quests or beta testing any more until I see the focus change to working towards a stable release over adding more more more.
Other folks can do what they want, but I've had enough of it.
I didn't get involved in this because I wanted to beta test, I got involved to build quests, and it's gotten to the point that is no longer possible.

That might sound like a bad attitude, but it's also FACT.
It doesn't matter how many cool features a program has, if it doesn't work to serve it's basic function, and ZC hasn't done that for a good while now.
It's way past time to stop adding more more more and FIX what is there.

sorry, i should read more... um... the more we wait the more requests appear... and i fully agree with freedom... i wouldve done a bit more towards learning stuff in zquest and continued working on my quest (which i admit is pretty crappy) but nothing works as intended or just doesnt work or will corrupt the quest or something.

DFW... the problem lies in them changing ques formats and having a bug in the parser that updates old quest formats to newer quest formats... its normally nothing to do with loading and/or saving... its normally to do with how a quest is updated. (altho i think it gets parsed as part of the loading process... it gets parsed before it stores it in memory for working on...)

[Petoe]

Freedom, I'm sure Wolfie meant beta15, not beta16 like she accidentally typed.

And we've tried to not add many FFC combos to Lost Isle because that one damn developer is constantly changing how things work and that would screw things up like it has screwed up for you. :( So what I am doing now is to wait for the final 2.5 release to add the rest of the FFC combos because it's a FINAL release and then I know nothing will change and the quest will be all right.


Oh and sorry koopa, maybe you're right, maybe I didn't mean to blame it all on L like that but his actions, some people's comments on this thread and everything else related to ZC makes me very sad and angry at the moment. I know I am not making many friends with my furious comments but understand me, I am a passionate quest designer who hates unstability more than anything. Now if you still decide to go and add those features you plan to add, I know for sure tons of new bugs will be born and it will take forever to sort those out and at that point I am starting to fear that 2.5 will never happen especially if something goes horribly wrong adding those new features and admit it, it may happen.


Oh and Freedom, just hang in there. I know you are very frustrated but don't quit just yet. The ZC community needs your great quests and it would be a shame to see a questmaker like you leave. But you can be sure if all our cries are going to waste and the developers screw something up by adding those new features to ZC 2.5, I and probably many more quest developers will be gone for good. Yeah, I'm that close of just giving up as well, can't stand this anymore, but I will still try to patiently wait and see what happens because I haven't given up hope just yet.

[ECNM]

Elise: There will always be someone to play ZC and make quests. There are hundreds, no, millions of Zelda fans, and someone will stumble on to ZC even if everyone who's here now leaves. ZC isn't the kind of project that can just die. I feel confident in saying that ZC has reached, if not surpassed, the level of widely respected development tools like rm2k and Game Maker (both of which I used to use before finding ZC).

Petoe: Hey, there was a time Roc's Feather was a pipe dream, right? There'll be a stable ZC soon enough. 'Sides, I'm sure the developers keep backups of old ZCs just in case something does go horribly wrong.

Everyone: Let's try to calm down, okay? It's Christmas time! Even if you don't celebrate Christmas, New Years is soon. So you have no excuse not to be happy. Get happier. Now. I demand so. If you don't, I'll have my army of Iron Knuckles poke you with their axes until you get happier. ;)

(Off-topic-ish, but the scripting system uses C/C++ or is quite similar, right? If so, I can try to contribute some scripts and stuff, though I'm only a student programmer. Of course, I'm horrible with ideas, so if anyone has a script suggestion I can try my hand at it *hint-hint*. I might never finish a quest... but I'll try my hardest to help in other ways.)

[Lotus_Eater]

Check the script request forum, I know some are in there.

[Freedom]

Freedom, I'm sure Wolfie meant beta15, not beta16 like she accidentally typed.

................


Oh and Freedom, just hang in there. I know you are very frustrated but don't quit just yet. The ZC community needs your great quests and it would be a shame to see a questmaker like you leave. But you can be sure if all our cries are going to waste and the developers screw something up by adding those new features to ZC 2.5, I and probably many more quest developers will be gone for good. Yeah, I'm that close of just giving up as well, can't stand this anymore, but I will still try to patiently wait and see what happens because I haven't given up hope just yet.

There are several things that have gotten me to the point I am now.
For one, right now my time is kind of precious, and I feel the time I've put into beta testing is being wasted since it isn't a stable release they seem interested in.

Also when "L" first started he said there was NO freeware program that could be expected to be bug free, and if that's his attitude then my attitude is then why should I waste my precious time with zelda classic.
I have several other freeware programs that haven't given me a minute of trouble, like my Eudora email program just to name one.
It's attitude and persistance that get a bug free program, and the drive to do what isn't the fun part, like fixing the bugs, instead of continuing to do the fun part of adding more and more.

I built industrial machines for years, building the machines was always a lot more fun than working out the bugs and tweaking them, but in that business, when a bug came up people lost body parts, so it HAD to be done.
Here it doesn't HAVE to be done, so there seems to be little interest in doing it.

I'm not getting paid for this either, so that excuse seems pretty shallow to me, but yet several have mentioned it.
I've been careful not to blame any one certain developer for the problems here, but I guess if I had to I'd have to say DN is the CEO of the developers, and they should be taking their lead from him.
All we need to know in that case, is what is DN's vision for ZC from here on out.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Yes, I mistyped, beta 15 is the correct beta. But you're right, Lost Isle is going through the updating process quite smoothly, probably because we aren't using any features that get changed every single time a beta rolls around, so it doesn't nearly effect us.

[jman2050]

This sucks. I won't have internet hooked up at my house until December 29th. I'll keep working on ZC, but without proper version control along with _L_'s predicament pretty much kills any chance of ZC coming before the end of the year. January is the new date I guess :/

[Solair Wright]

Take your time with ZC. Rushing through projects isn't a good idea. We'd rather have a comprehensive, working version of ZQuest and ZC than a buggy and incomplete version. Good luck, folks.

[Nicholas Steel]

if they are not going to rush through they should disable the suggestion areas of this board so that they can focus on bugs and whats already been suggested.

[The_Amaster]

Actually, at this point, I don't think turning off the suggestion board would do any good. All the ideas are wither wayyy to unreal, or else things the dev's have already decided to do, and this theres not point in giving the medicine after the sickness(Not that new features are a disease or anything, I just needed a good metaphor.)

[Nicholas Steel]

Actually, at this point, I don't think turning off the suggestion board would do any good. All the ideas are wither wayyy to unreal, or else things the dev's have already decided to do, and this theres not point in giving the medicine after the sickness(Not that new features are a disease or anything, I just needed a good metaphor.)

its always easier to treat someone already sick then to prevent the sickness from occuring in the first place.

as you said... suggestions are pointless thus why have that board segment anymore?

[Saffith]

This sucks. I won't have internet hooked up at my house until December 29th. I'll keep working on ZC, but without proper version control along with _L_'s predicament pretty much kills any chance of ZC coming before the end of the year. January is the new date I guess :/Heh, I didn't know you were down, too. I'm recovering from a hard drive crash, myself. Shouldn't keep me down more than another day or two, but still. Clearly, we're just not meant to get it done this year.


as you said... suggestions are pointless thus why have that board segment anymore?Well, this version should be pretty much finished, feature-wise, but we can always have suggestions for the next version. The Beta Suggestions board would still seem to be the appropriate place for those if they're related to features introduced in 2.5.

[_L_]

Well, this version should be pretty much finished, feature-wise, but we can always have suggestions for the next version. The Beta Suggestions board would still seem to be the appropriate place for those if they're related to features introduced in 2.5.

Don't forget the really easy suggestions which only take an hour to implement. Like the Peril Beam scroll. Or the "Don't show Link's position on subscreen map" Screen Flag.

[The_Amaster]

Well, I don't know the specifics of ZC's programming, but I know some basics to think(keyword: THINK) that certain features like an enemy editor wouldn't be too hard, like in the case of said enemy editor, I can only assume that the behavior for each enemy is hard-coded into the program, and an editor would just be acess to said hard-coding.

[Nicholas Steel]

Heh, I didn't know you were down, too. I'm recovering from a hard drive crash, myself. Shouldn't keep me down more than another day or two, but still. Clearly, we're just not meant to get it done this year.

Well, this version should be pretty much finished, feature-wise, but we can always have suggestions for the next version. The Beta Suggestions board would still seem to be the appropriate place for those if they're related to features introduced in 2.5.

i never said to STOP people from making suggestions... i said to make it so you cant suggest TILL the new 2.5 is out... then re-enable the suggestion areas.... or atleast this is what i meant.

[rocksfan13]

Look whats happening at this moment with ZC .......The zelda questbase is down for almost a year .........the 2.10 bugfree version everybody asked for and could be done in only a short time ( that was what was told ) never heard from it again ...............the beta releases are filled with bugs and new features constantly.............. so questmakers stop making quests .......what will we have at the end ...........maybe sometime there will be a new stable release but no questmakers around to make a quest and no players cause there is never a new quest in the questdatabase .........We can't blame the developers they do it all in their free time .........we can't blame the questmakers everytime they work on a quest they can throw half away what they made because of a new release that messes up all the work they have done till then............we can't blame the players they found other games to play because there is nothing new to gain here ..............No we can't blame nobody but it's still a sad process to see happening :shrug:

elise has a strong point here. Much of the interest in the site has dwindled. With the main site in shambles, the quest database not active anymore and not being run. Why should anyone be interested in it anymore. When I first came here and started messing with ZC, the main site was perfectly fine. In fact, it's WHY I joined. Now it's a total shame. Does anyone know what happened to Eckels? He WAS fixing it, then he disappeared again before he finished it and now it's a mess. And now rumor has it that the mirrors aren't working either.

As for ZC itself. I agree with Freedom. I think too many features were jammed into this new version already. It's nice to see new stuff, but when is enough, enough? It gets very frustrating when you're working a quest and have to wait for a fix because something isn't working right. I have a quest now that can't be released because of the combo cycling issue and it's very frustrating. I honestly think it's time to stop adding more features and stick to what we already have. Adding more will only bring more bugs to be fixed and a longer wait time on a stable release.

I have total faith in the devs of ZC and expect good things from them. But Freedom is right. If you look at the boards, people are starting to get irritated at ZC because of all the flaws. Then you get the ones like Freedom here and just retire. I don't mind messing around with the new stuff and finding the errors, but can't we just stick to what we already have?

[bigjoe]

I say the devs should do the following things in this order.

1.FREEZE FRAME. That means stop adding new features. What's there now can stay. but NO MORE.
2.KILL ALL BUGS. Wipe them out, all of them.
3.MAKE STABLE RELEASE. A new bug free version would make many people happy.
4.START WORK ON A NEW VERSION. Add all the mega crazy features that people want. ;)


I'm starting to get a little fed up as well. Not angry at anybody or anything, but losing inspiration. Its hard to test a quest with Wizzrobes when your magic shield don't want to work. Or test a quest that uses the raft when that isnt operating. I look forward to seeing a bug free version, but do I have to rely on cryogenics in order to endure the wait for that?

[The_Amaster]

I've had the same problem, so I've taken to planning out every aspect of my quest in excruciating detail. Not only does it pass the time, but over the iterations,I belive I've really improved my quest. Not that I'm saying that that we can delay the release forever or anything, and we do need something to attract members.

[Love For Fire]

Don't plan every detail of your quest out yet... or when a new item comes out you'll have no place to put it.

[Freedom]

I agree with Bigjoe.
He also brings to light something else that's been bothering me.
Some of these bugs seem to be operating system specific.
I've had no trouble with the combos (cycling or otherwise) or the mirror shield, and some of the problems I've had didn't seem to be a problem for others.

It's going to take some time to sort those out.

[Nicholas Steel]

something i didnt think of is that they will keep the engine in a state that can be easily updated... so if people keep making suggestions then the devs will know how to design the engine for maximizing future upgradeability... this is also possible why its taking a while to make a stable release... yes they can make it not upgradeable AND stable or they can not make it upgradeable yet still be stable.

[Imprisoned]

Yeah, Bigjoe has a good point...
if the bugs aren't fixed we can't continue our quests, b15 has some fatal bugs like the raft bug and not being able to go up in sidescroller rooms.
My level 2 is meant to have the raft there... also it needs the sidescrolling mode passageways.
So just stop adding the new features and focus on smashing the bu-bug-bgg-bu-g-g-g-gs.

[Solair Wright]

I'd rather have beta 16 have a lot of fatal bugs from b15 than have a lot of new features that have a side effect - spawning antlions that render quests obsolete. My emphasis is that it's more important to smash ALL bugs, regardless of size and/or severity. What do you want more? An enjoyable game with very few/no bugs, or a game with lots of bugs because it was rushed?

Though that very few bugs that are fatal/game-stopping are the antithesis of very few bugs/inconsistencies that are of no harm, I'd rather have Zelda Classic be free of bugs before adding new items. Take your time, smash ALL bugs that spawned in b15, and fix the ones that appeared prior to b15, then release beta 16. Please quit adding new features, and let beta 16 be a major bugfix edition. (about time we have one)

[jovo]

I want to see only bug fixes now. No new features anymore you foolis zc makers!! :(

[DarkFlameWolf]

Notice how the devs stopped responding here. Maybe we should wait and see what happens after New Years. :P (because nothing is obviously going to happen before that.)

[jman2050]

Actually, I stopped responding cause I won't have consistent internet until the 29th :P

Anyway, as a status update, the enemy editor is 95% done. It and the enemies need to be tested THOROUGHLY in the next beta, though we'll make sure on our end that the editor and the enemies are as stable as possible before we put it in your hands.

The more advanced string editor is also coming, _L_ seems to be working hard on that based on the code here, although he would give a better status report on that than I could.

After that and MAYBE an item set editor, that's it; no more new big features. Maybe a couple of little ones, and perhaps finishing of unfinished features, but nothing major after that.

[bigjoe]

Awesome to hear about an enemy editor. It was way overdue. I'll be testing it madly, since its the one thing I've wanted the most for YEARS.

I guess it's okay to work on new features since there is now a more stable 2.10. I'd still like to see a new bug free release soon though, and I think the you developers are capable of that.

[ShadowTiger]

Luck with the internets, jman.

So what about the yet-to-be-implemented Floormaster and Z3 style Moldorm? What about the Subscreen features that aren't implemented yet? What of those "Unused" combo types? Will all of those be left in there come 2.5?

[Freedom]

Awesome to hear about an enemy editor. It was way overdue. I'll be testing it madly, since its the one thing I've wanted the most for YEARS.

I guess it's okay to work on new features since there is now a more stable 2.10. I'd still like to see a new bug free release soon though, and I think the you developers are capable of that.


I have to admit I'd really like the enemy editor too.
The 2.10.1 is worse than the 2.10 at this point, I'd wait for another round of testing on it before calling it "more stable". ;)

[bigjoe]

Oh, didn't really read up on that. I guess I didn't notice anything since I usually dont use the cheat menu when playing other peoples quests. Or since I didnt try any spc music. But at least its being worked on. And when there IS a bug free 2.10 , that should be able to hold us over until the new release;)

[Freedom]

I was trying to use the cheat in testing my own. ;)
The slow down when a screen has 4 or more layers is probably a bigger problem, it literally slows to a crawl.

[Revfan9]

Hmm. Probably one of my worst habits with quest building is that I literally test every last screen in the player to make sure every last little thing works. It slows down my quest building by about a hundred times. Same thing when I'm programming. Then again, there are no real bugs.

A question, was 2.10.1 just coded and not tested at all before release? That's what seems to have happened...

[_L_]

The more advanced string editor is also coming, _L_ seems to be working hard on that based on the code here, although he would give a better status report on that than I could.

Things that have yet to be made:
* The "Signpost" combo.
* A way for scripts to produce message strings.
* Choices (Yes/No etc. May not have time for this.)
* Fonts (that is, selecting them.)
* Translucent text frames. (Harder than I thought...)
* Ability to make your file's name appear in strings ("So your name is ALPHA, eh?")
* Possibly an easier way to add control codes to strings than by typing arbitrary numbers. (Maybe arbitrary two-letter abbreviations?)

Apart from that, it's plain sailing!

[Dark Nation]

A question, was 2.10.1 just coded and not tested at all before release?

To be blunt, yes. ZC 2.10.1 could technically be called a beta. It was put out there for everyone to find bugs that needed killing.

[DarkFlameWolf]

but what's confusing is now we have two things to test for in killing bugs: 2.10.1 and 2.11 beta 15/16. So which one is more important, which one is going to get the royal treatment? I thought 2.11 was the version that we were all aiming to make a full public 2.5 release with. But now it seems that's dashed and we're just working on 2.10.1 to satisfy the masses. Well, my latest quest won't work anymore with 2.10, its only compatible with 2.11 betas and above. So I'm not sure what this means for the future of my quest making. Or is DN working on 2.10.1 to get bug free and the rest of the devs are working on 2.11, beta 16? I'm very confused here.

[Lotus_Eater]

I think DN is making a bug free version of 2.10 while the other devs continue with the new version. This way we have a stable version that doesn't have all the extra baggage of the new versions, and is fully compatible with all quests that 2.10 or below.

[*b*]

Signpost combo! Yay! Erm, that IS a 'press-A-to-read' combo, right?

[beefster09]

Maybe even a "Press-A-while-facing-to-read" signpost combo? It would look kinda weird if someone was reading a sign that's behind them.
Maybe add a person combo; it's like an eyeball combo, only you can "talk" to it. Or it could be like a signpost only it faces you. Wait, you could fake it by using an eyeball combo, and a signpost.
What about just a plain old "display string" and "display string (press A)" combos?

[Radien ZC]

Not to sound like a broken record, but I agree with most of the people here: finish what you're working on before releasing 2.5. Don't go for the Dec. 31st deadline; this is the worst time of the year to try to rush things.

Bug test, bug test, bug test. We want something stable if we're going to be using it as a primary version all year.

Also, I'm sure nobody remembers/cares about the question, but I wanted to point out that I only made Classic jumping tiles, not charge tiles.