My problem with Twilight Princess (Moderate Spoliers)

[goKi]

I'll be honest, i'm not *that* far into the game, i've played for around 8 hours, and i'm at the second dungeon on top of Death Mountain. So far, i've noticed one thing that's been bothering the crap out of me.

There has not been one side quest.

Yep, the game has been one giant straight line up to this point. I was okay with it for a while, thinking they were building to something, and as soon as i exit the Faron Woods to the massive Hyrule Field, i thought: 'Awesome, time to do some exploring". Too bad all the areas you don't need to go to yet are blocked of in some way or another. Again with Kakariko Village. A ton of buildings, but not one of them with anything interesting in it.

All i can say is i hope this changes, very soon.

[*b*]

It does, trust me. I think at the third or fourth level, you'll open up a couple minigames. I think there are some at the point where you are already, but I've only played through once, so I'm not sure

At the very least, once you beat the game/get to the final level, there are at least five minigames in Hyrule, probably more, and they're all quite fun

[edit] Nevermind. I thought you meant minigames, not sidequests. Silly me

[AtmaWeapon]

There are a few side quests but there is nothing like the Biggoron's Sword quest or the myriad "help this person" quests in Majora's Mask. Personally I think this is a good thing because starting with OoT and culminating at TWW the game was becoming 90% sidequest and 10% dungeon. I'm much happier with larger and more dungeons.

The thing that really really REALLY gets my goat is the "help" messages never stop showing up when you get an item. Does Nintendo really think that by the 5th and 6th dungeon I need an explanation of what the compass does and how to use it?

Also, the first time you pick up a blue, red, or yellow rupee you get a message telling you how many rupees you got. That's great the first time; it doesn't show up subsequent times right? Save, reset, pick up a blue rupee. Surprise! You are reminded it is 5 rupees again! All that junk gets on my nerves.

[Pineconn]

Remember, Nintendo is only trying to make it a "game for everyone." I'm sure there's some moron out there that can't remember a blue Rupee is 5 and a yellow is 10.

[Nicholas Steel]

they should have made it so you can press a button to rapidly skip any tutorial crap... any company that forces you through it (lionhead studios) are idiots.

[Pineconn]

It's a good thing, then, that you can skip cut-scenes with the press of a button. Of course, I can't skip any cool scenes on my second play-through. ;)

[vegeta1215]

I'll be getting Zelda this week on the Gamecube, so I can't comment yet on the mix of dungeons/sidequests in that game.

I will say that the dungeon/sidequest ratio has definitely been skewed over time. With OoT there was a good balance: the sidequests never felt out of the way, and I liked that. With MM you had fewer dungeons and more sidequests, but a lot of the sidequests were wrapped around the characters from Clock Town, which is the while point of the game. Now Wind Waker... they just got lazy with Wind Waker. There are just too damn many sidequests and mini games. I think my first play through I didn't even touch most of the outer squares of the map, which are mostly extras. I didn't get "everything" in the game until much later cause I didn't feel like going so far out of my way for them. (it's bad enough you HAVE to find all the triforce pieces...)

You could argue the same has happened to the handheld Zeldas. Link's Awakening introduced the trading game, but you ran into the characters as you went along the main quest - they weren't out of the way. And yet Link's awakening had phenominal dungeon design. The Oracle games added more and more, esp the Ring system, and the dungeons suffered. (to be fair, Capcom made those) The Minish Cap is the worst example to date. The dungeons are pathetically easy and linear, and the Kinstone Fusion sidequest is the most tedious thing ever created. (Capcom made also) I think the Minish cap is the first Zelda game to date where I was not enjoying myself as I played it. Don't get me wrong, the Capcom made Zeldas have their own merits, but I question Nintendo's decision to hand over the franchise to them.

I'll have more to say once I play Twilight Princess. I have my figners crossed that it will not disappoint. (likewise for Phantom Hourglass when that comes out).

btw, if you haven't already, play Four Swords Adventures. Best Zelda game since MM easily.

[Revfan9]

-=SPOILER=-

[MANDRAG GANON]

I was talking about this with my brother the other day, it feels like the game pushes you through and you feel less free. (no where near as much as WW though!) You usually go to and area and stay in that small area till the next small area. Whenever I do explore I hope to find a grotto under a rock or something but alls i ever get is a couple rupees...

Generally I think this is a good zelda game, there are parts that are easy but as easy as they are they are fun to do especially the bosses. It's definately not the best zelda though. I was pretty disapointed about the sidequests too.

So far im having alot of fun, nothing compared to the fun I had playing LTTP and OOT, but its a neat experience and im liking the story and characters.

I look forward to doing alot of exploring though and i hope I'm not dissapointed.

And Revfan I dunno wht you are talking about I thought SMRPG was an amazing game. Maybe i think this because I bought it when it came out so I never heard people praising it before I played it. One of the best SNES gams I own. Im looking up this Treasure of Rudras game and am surprised I know nothing of it??? I definately want to try it.

[Revfan9]

Like I said, if you take SMRPG and look at it from a perspective, the design elements are near-flawless. But when finally played it after hearing a million people say "OMG GREATEST THING EVAR!!!! *florgasms*", it was disappointing because I had a preconceived notion that it was going to be the greatest thing ever, when in reality it was "just awesome" and the entire experience was ruined for me. Hype killed the game.

To compare again, I had never heard of TotR until I was going through VGmusic and saw a bunch of Midis for a game called Rudora no Hihou. My general rule was "People must like it if a lot of people made Midis for it, so I should try it out" and played it all last summer (really long game). I played it without guides, cheats, or anything, and just suck up the experience with no preconceptions of biases and loved it in all of it's true glory. Then, after beating the game (I lost any sort of internet connection a day or so after getting the ROM, and went through the summer without it, then coincidentally got a connection back a week or so after beating it), I looked up "Professional" opinions, and it got really bad reviews everywhere. There were even claims that Square fired the producer who made the game because it was so bad, because that was the last (and first) game he had ever produced. After looking through more and more "professional" review and more and more fan reviews, I started to see a pattern. Biased professional reviews gave the game bad attention as is, and then it spread to the fans, which they spread out more and more, because it was a low-profile, Japan only RPG. Then came the english translation, which the idiot who made it decided to fill it up with chatspeak and tasteless dialouge (a better translation was released that more closely fits the japanese dialouge, revealing that the original game had fantastic plotwork) which put the final nail in it's coffin as being a bad game. Hype killed the game.


The moral of the story here kids? Hype is an evil, evil machine. It does a good job of selling things, which makes it good for corporations, which is why it exists at all. However, it leaves consumers (and gamers) disappointed. It can also spread out like wildfire and make people worship a game before playing it (SMRPG) or hate a game they have never played (TotR).

And so hype is ultimately what killed Twilight Princess. Our expectations built up to unrealistic proportions when the game was first announced, and then it built up and up over the years only to be popped when we were met with a "just awesome" game.

[/end corny speech]

[vegeta1215]

I was flipping through my Zelda Player's Guides last night and remembered a lot of things I liked about Wind Waker and the Capcom-made handheld Zeldas. They are great games, they just have tough acts to follow (OoT and Link's Awakening)

Really I think the problem is, we are creatures of habit, and like the same things (same goes for music and movies, etc). We dislike change, but at the same time are frustrated that we keep seeing the same old thing. I think there is a problem with most if not all video game franchises in that they haven't really evolved. Most have not changed at all, and when they do, people reject them. Look at Zelda II for example - it is different from every other Zelda game, but people often cite it as the worst in the series, despite being a terrific game. I think Resident Evil 4 is one example where a game series evolved but got a welcome reception.

Zelda hasn't changed much at all - new gameplay elements have been added to mix things up, but the core Zelda fundamentals have not changed. The same goes for Mario and Metroid for the most part (and many other series). I think the Four Swords games did a lot to push the series in a new direction, that is, cooperative and competitive multiplayer. Makes you wonder, what's next?

[AtmaWeapon]

OK I had a 30-minute work in progress but honestly I think vegeta1215's post is a lot more elegant and makes the statement I was trying to make with several tens of thousands less characters.

Twilight Princess is a Zelda game; it has all of the mechanics and includes all of the things that have defined the series since its beginning. Because if this, it really brings nothing new to the table but setting, graphics, sound, and input methods. There are several parts of the experience that Nintendo has tweaked over time; I think if we compare TP to other games in the series you'll see that TP is not "missing" anything but simply has adjustments that may not be optimum.

Personally, I am glad to see less side quests in the series. Majora's Mask gave more treasure through side quests than it gave through dungeons. The Wind Waker required me to spend hours doing nothing but sailing in the boat so I could dig up a map that showed me where to spend hours sailing my boat to dig up a heart container or rupees that I needed to get a map that showed me where to sail my boat for hours to dig up a Triforce piece. Compare this to LttP, where the largest side quest I remember is a brief blacksmith quest to produce a 2x damage sword and I say good riddance to side quests as they have been recently.

[Cloral]

goKi, the overworld map opens up a lot once you finish that dungeon and do the next twilight sequence. In fact, I'm really liking this overworld now. Instead of one large central field with all the different areas connected to it in a starburst pattern ala OoT or MM, you've got lots of different areas with lots of different interconnections. It still doesn't quite rival the original in terms of explorability because you have distinct areas connected with narrow canyons, but aside from that, it's really working well for me right now.

[Warlock]

OK I had a 30-minute work in progress but honestly I think vegeta1215's post is a lot more elegant and makes the statement I was trying to make with several tens of thousands less characters.

Twilight Princess is a Zelda game; it has all of the mechanics and includes all of the things that have defined the series since its beginning. Because if this, it really brings nothing new to the table but setting, graphics, sound, and input methods. There are several parts of the experience that Nintendo has tweaked over time; I think if we compare TP to other games in the series you'll see that TP is not "missing" anything but simply has adjustments that may not be optimum.

Personally, I am glad to see less side quests in the series. Majora's Mask gave more treasure through side quests than it gave through dungeons. The Wind Waker required me to spend hours doing nothing but sailing in the boat so I could dig up a map that showed me where to spend hours sailing my boat to dig up a heart container or rupees that I needed to get a map that showed me where to sail my boat for hours to dig up a Triforce piece. Compare this to LttP, where the largest side quest I remember is a brief blacksmith quest to produce a 2x damage sword and I say good riddance to side quests as they have been recently.

Actually I'd say Wolf Form is the one drastic "new thing" this game brings. And I was extremely happy with the way they handled that. Otherwise, yes you are right. It's more or less just the same deal as before - nothing wrong with that. Honestly, without completely changing the formula in a Majora's Mask style way (specifically refering to the 3 day cycle here), I don't think there is a whole lot that can be added. You can add smaller stuff like wolf form, but there is nothing that really needs "improving" as it were.

As for Revfan9's comments:
About the number of dungeons - seriously? OMG it has *ONE* less dungeon than OoT! It's the end of the world! Don't even compare ALTTP because that was sprite-based and creating dungeons in that game was easy. 3d maps take much longer to produce. Either way, ALTTP's dungeons were not all as long as this game's either. And the first three in OoT were an absolute joke compared to the first three in this game.

Besides which, TP has a *huge* number of mini-dungeons, more than any other Zelda game (except maybe ALTTP - same rules apply there). And not only that, they are actually quite good mini-dungeons, some even resembling rooms from previous dungeons. Nothing like TWW's "guantlet of rooms" crap that you had to tred through (several times) to get the stupid triforce pieces (or sometimes just rupees and lame stuff like that). You could also probably count -=SPOILER=- as another dungeon (it's definately long enough, though not "official dungeon" material of course).

Also, Hyrule Field does not take 45 minutes to cross. TSA clocked it at only 16 (http://www.thehylia.com/features.php?subaction=showfull&id=1164100252&archive=&start_from=&ucat=3&). I also see nothing wrong with this game's Hyrule Field. It's certainly more interesting than OoT's (which had what.. Lon Lon Ranch and that's it?). As for boss battles, yes they were (generally) easy but I think you were expecting way too much. This game has some of the best boss battles of any Zelda game. Dungeons 4 and 7 (http://www.thehylia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269) (URL lists what dungeons and bosses those are - so as to avoid spoilers) in particular were amazingly fun. I just don't know what you were expecting - I'd rather not be fighting the same boss for an hour thank you, unless maybe that's the last boss of the entire game (who probably does clock in close to that).

And yes, OoT had just as many bugs (people just didn't freak out all over message boards like it was the end of the world about them) - at least TP's bugs can be patched :P

I don't know, overall it seems people are just overly negative for the sake of being negative. Is the game perfect? No of course not. Is the game fun? Absolutely. Any complaints I've seen are extremely minor gripes at best.

[vegeta1215]

I haven't played it yet, so my comments are mainly on the Zelda franchise as a whole. Most of them come from the fact that because Zelda is my favorite series, I am very critical of it.

Also I think that maybe I'm just too good at "Zelda". My main gripe with The Minish Cap for example is that it didn't really challenge me at all. That and the Kinstone Fusion sidequest was giving me a headache.

[Tygore]

TSA clocked it at only 16 (http://www.thehylia.com/features.php?subaction=showfull&id=1164100252&archive=&start_from=&ucat=3&).

And (I haven't finished it yet) he seems to be doing the whole thing on foot, never mind that you have your horse for pretty much the entire game (also ignoring for the sake of exploration the warps that come into play relatively early on- less than half way through).

[Warlock]

And (I haven't finished it yet) he seems to be doing the whole thing on foot, never mind that you have your horse for pretty much the entire game (also ignoring for the sake of exploration the warps that come into play relatively early on- less than half way through).

Right, he also said he took the longest route he could possibly think of. So 45 minutes doesn't even come close to holding water.

And like you mentioned, the warp points make this whole issue moot anyways. You can warp and get to almost anywhere with at most only a couple minutes of walking (not counting your horse again).

[goKi]

Revfan9: I don't think anyone should count Ganon's Tower, or the Bottom of the Well as dungeons. To be a Zelda dungeon, they must have a Map/Compass/Boss Key. They aren't. So OoT has 8, i believe.

[vegeta1215]

Revfan9: I don't think anyone should count Ganon's Tower, or the Bottom of the Well as dungeons. To be a Zelda dungeon, they must have a Map/Compass/Boss Key. They aren't. So OoT has 8, i believe.

I count those as mini-dungeons. Don't forget the Ice Cave too ;)

[Tygore]

Am I the only person who never even bothered with the latter 3/4 of the bottom of the well? Seriously, the Lens is the only thing you need, and you get that early on. Just play one of the warping songs and get out of there.

[Pineconn]

True, but the rest of the Well is for Gold Skulltulas. But in Master Quest, they really messed the Well up. You don't have to fight Dead Hand to get the Lens - in fact, you get the compass from it. Plus, they got rid of almost every invisible wall and added a ton of grate barriers.

[Nicholas Steel]

can they patch games with the wii? how does this work? im aware of them being able to make system updates and updates to emulation... but not to wii games themselves.

[Cloral]

They can on the 360 and PS3, so I would assume it could work on the Wii as well. Of course, whether they actually can is dependent on whether Nintendo has a system in place for doing this. I don't know offhand if they do or not.

[ctrl-alt-delete]

WiiConnect24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiiConnect24)


Service

The service will also be used to distribute content such as software patches and updated game content while the Wii is not in use. At the E3 2006 Nintendo Conference, Nintendo president Satoru Iwata described Wii as "the system that never sleeps." The WiiConnect24 system requires about seven watts, about the equivalent of a miniature lightbulb.

[Shoelace]

I liked TP. I don't think it was as open as OoT, it seemed to go in a path like Resident Evil like, however, kept the backtracking that Zelda is known for. The sidequests do open up in the game which is good. However, there isn't really anything that stands out like in Majora's Mask. I still think that TP is an amazing game though. The number of dungeons were fine because of how big they were. It will take longer to pass those then the ones in OoT for sure. All in all, this game got 10 out of 10 for me. I enjoyed it, especially the storyline.

Also, Revfan, Super Mario RPG was a great game. Back then it was basically the best you can do. Of course, when you compare it today's games you are going to look down on the game. That is just like saying Super Mario Bros. 3 is not good because there isn't anything special about it. Well, back then it was. Same thing about OoT. I deeply think that back then, that is the best they could have done with the game. It was perfect in my eyes. That is why it is my favorite game. Perfect. However, if you look at it today, you can pick at little things because the system is better nowadays. It wouldn't be perfect if the same game was released today. Just remember there was once a day that Donkey Kong, Pacman, and even Pong where the greatest games out there and you surely can't compare it to today's games.

[Kingboo30]

Revfan, I honestly don't understand you. Square did not hype SMRPG. The fans loved it and spread it around saying that it was awesome. (And it is.) Nintendo did hype up TP for being the best Zelda and I do think it is the best Zelda. Also, you were the one crying like a baby saying that you can't use your Wii until Christmas which means you haven't even played TP. Why should have any say on this? You said it is not THAT good and takes 45 minutes to cross Hyrule Field and you haven't even bothered playing it.

[Pineconn]

So I finally got to hold Zelda! It is the GCN version, and my GameStop got them in today.

But of course, my mom won't let me play it since it is supposed to be a "Christmas gift." Maybe I can wheedle it out of her.

[Gerudo]

i got LoZTP a few days ago, and played about 7 hours of it. just enough for me to get through the first dungeon and try to find the town afterwards. i got to Hyrule Field.

the wolf sequences are great.

[vegeta1215]

I picked up Zelda for Gamecube last Tuesday and have already put around 25 hours or so into the game (I really need to take more breaks) and just started the 5 dungeon. I'm having a lot of fun playing the game, and I love all the new elements they added.

Although I'm only halfway through, so far the biggest thing holding this back from being the best Zelda ever imo is how much it clings to OoT. Once I rode into Hyrule field and then Kakariko village, things just started feeling too familiar. Add to it that most of the music is re-used, the game just doesn't feel as "new" as it should. Also, despite production values being pretty high, this game could really benefit from voice acting. I never thought I'd say that, but the game is begging for it. (btw I have no problem with Link remaining silent, but c'mon, give everyone else voices, at least in the cinema scenes where their mouths are moving anyways!)

Oh, not sure you guys know this, but recently a lot of people online have gotten up in arms about Gamespot's Twilight Princess review score of 8.9. I think that's kind of low when you compare it to other games that have gotten higher scores from them, the review makes some good points.

btw,
-=SPOILER=-

[War Lord]

i got LoZTP a few days ago, and played about 7 hours of it. just enough for me to get through the first dungeon and try to find the town afterwards. i got to Hyrule Field.

the wolf sequences are great.

I absolutely loathe being a wolf.

[goKi]

I absolutely loathe being a wolf.

I thought i was the only one. I dash through the wolf sequences so fast just to get them over with.

[ctrl-alt-delete]

I am undecided on the wolf sequences. Not much has really bothered me about it, but there have not been any moments that I will never forget, either.

[Pineconn]

I liked the wolf sequences - they extended the time in the overworld. From the end of dungeon 3 onward there isn't enough overworld... except for before the City in the Sky.

But my huge problem with the game is the difficulty. I know - this is coming from a guy who beat OoT, MM, and TWW about 5 to 10 times each (and makes Zelda games with ZQuest :p), but there seriously should have been a difficulty setting. Did anyone else find the game to be way too easy for a game that's "more for the veterans?" Okay, I just beat the City in the Sky, but I doubt the game will turn much harder. Heck, the boss of the City in the Sky, I lost maybe 3 hearts. Disgustingly easy.