Some notes about the dark/chaos/mirror world

[_L_]

Nomenclature
The Dark World that the Temple of Light leads into is going to follow the lore of the Sacred Realm as told in LttP and OoT. Essentially, this means that:
1) The Sacred Realm mirrors most of the terrain in Hyrule, but modified as per the next point.
2) The Sacred Realm also mirrors the "heart" of the holder of the Triforce. A balanced heart will make the Sacred Realm into a greater, more paradisal version of Hyrule. A heart in turmoil will make the Sacred Realm into a fearful, monstrous version of Hyrule.

However: in this game, Lord Menace does not possess the Triforce! (Even attempting to do so would utterly destroy him, as he is composed of primal Chaos and the Triforce is the symbol of divine Order.)
But, he has used his chaotic influence to seal, or neutralise, each individual Triforce's power - with the result that nobody can "hold" the Triforce until the seal is broken.

So, the "Dark World" isn't "dark" because it mirrors the heart of the holder. Instead, it is dark because of Lord Menace's chaotic, corrupting influence upon the world itself.

Up to this point we've been referring to it as the Dark World, but doing so implies that it is of the same nature as LttP's Dark World. Thus, I propose that we henceforth refer to it as either the "Chaos World" (referring to the reason why the world has become inhospitable) or the "Mirror World" (a very fitting name which NeoFirst's NPCs will refer to the not-necessarily corrupted Dark World as.)

Transformation
There is a third rule concerning the Sacred Realm which I didn't mention:
3) Whoever enters the Sacred Realm will be transformed to mirror the state of their heart. A virtuous heart will transform one into a wondrous being. A vicious heart will transform one into a monstrous being.

This is something which is easily forgotten. When our heroes Link and Zelda stride into the Temple of Shadows, they will be changed into different creatures. In LttP, such a change prevented Link from using any items, but I don't think that NeoFirst needs to follow that particular trend - NeoFirst's Link and Zelda aren't quite like their LttP counterparts.

Alternatively, we could wimp out and just drop in some Moon Pearls (the only item which can overrule the effect) for the both of them.

Some other notes:
* In reference to the "Mirror World" name, and also to LttP's Magic Mirror, all entrances to and from the Chaos World will resemble mirrors.
* I understand that Silver Arrows are required to activate the Light->Chaos mirrors, and that Golden (Triforce) Arrows are required to activate the Chaos->Light mirrors.

[Dark Nation]

Well, their first time there, we can use the DMap Link tile modifier (once the programming is finished) and disable all weapons. Then, upon picking up the Moon Pearl (or having someone "give" them to you), you'd do an instawarp to a duplicate of the DMap with no Link tile modifier.

[_L_]

Actually, I said
In LttP, such a change prevented Link from using any items, but I don't think that NeoFirst needs to follow that particular trend
Because, hey, most of Ganon's monsters in LttP's Dark World are doing fine while being transformed.

Also: will the DMap Link tile modifier affect all Link tiles?

[ShadowTiger]

I wouldn't see why not. o.o' ... What about Link Tile Mods though? How do they enter into the mix?


Now, _L_, assuming that I like your train of thought, (Give me $1.99 and I just might. ;-p *lol* ) I'm actually imagining the Chaos world to be either one of two things similar to: (Awful grammar, but bear with me.)
Ever played Majora's Mask? Ever been to the moon? It's virtually music-less. You get a sensation of walking through a thick mist, without there being any mist. The area is totally blanketed in mystique.
Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow: Chaotic Realm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/stage-aos.htm). (Scroll to the very bottom.)
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-aos/screens/stage_chaotic1-1.pngIt's essentially that. Note the Palette, relative to the otherwise stony brick darker, more "colorful" gray.

So it doesn't have to be EVIL, if nobody is holding the Triforce. However, it does exist, and if nobody is holding the triforce, yet the Triforce has a dampened effect on it, ... ... it's going to mess quite a few things up. ._o

[_L_]

*lol*ASCII art of a cheerleader, neck upward, with her arms in the air?

Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow: Chaotic Realm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/stage-aos.htm). (Scroll to the very bottom.)Ah! I heartily approve of the "void" elements. Lord Menace/Chaos's intent is destruction, so maybe many of the Chaos World's cliffs will drop straight into deep space?

[ShadowTiger]

I actually like it that you agree with such a notion; I was willing to "compromise" where necessary, while simply referring to the overall feel of the area as being something that's not really "established reality," .. .. .. as varied of a meaning that can be.

The *lol* is a sign of a potential chuckle. It is a placeholder for a brief jest between the two or more partners engaging in the discussion. Of course, you knew that already. :p

[_L_]

Update:

After playing Four Swords Adventures, I've decided that only the Chaos->Light portals will be Mirrors, and the Light->Chaos portals will be Moon Portals. In order to open Moon Portals, you need arrows tipped with "moon metal", or silver. In order to open Mirrors (which are covered in blobs of black Chaos) you need arrows tipped with the divine Golden Power.

[Revfan9]

Portals you can use, perhaps? (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&id=761)

[CJC]

Just a thought, and by all means feel free to just ignore me if you don't like the idea.


In the process of the first 'journey' from the Temple of Light to the Temple of Shadows, give Link a useless custom item that modifies his tiles to that of the 'Chaotic form'. Then, in each of the 'Temple of Light' entrance rooms (As in the portal rooms), use a script to remove this item from his possession. And in each of the 'Temple of Shadows' entrance rooms (Again, the portal rooms), use another script to place the item back into his inventory.

This would handle any and all tile modifier problems, and Nick's script (http://www.armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=95345) can do it perfectly.


And I don't think you should wimp out on this... because it would be cool. But if you decide to go that route, you could create another 'useless' item that actually appears in the inventory, and have the script check for it before adding/removing the 'Chaotic form' item (Which of course would not appear in the inventory, even though it is kept.)

Also, if you add that clause that renders the Sacred Realm/Chaotic form temporary, you could also put in another subtext (That disables A and B, or maybe just the sword.) That way, it forces the player to get the Moon Pearl. And of course, as soon as the player has the moon pearl, the script would go inactive, allowing further progression in the dungeon.

[ShadowTiger]

What kind of Chaotic form could Link possibly have though? Did Samus Aran transform when she entered Dark Aether? Nope. Burned like hell though. O.o'

[CJC]

Well, Link had two different appearances in the Sacred Realm during the storyline of AlttP: In the game he became a bunny and in the manga he was a werewolf briefly.

Link also becomes a wolf in Twilight Princess, which was also a brief stay in darkness.


But... I can't see that reflection coming off of a relatively timid and mute Link personality.



So, after a long discussion in IRC chat with Geecku, we decided on some suitable 'inner reflections' of your two main characters.


Link = Turtle

Being that he comes off so timid and withdrawn, it would make sense that he'd become some sort of creature that held that kind of protection. Whereas the original is more of a protection from social situations, the later is one from physical harm, making it fit well with the theme of the Sacred Realm (Emotion becomes Reality).

Zelda = White Dove

After quite a bit of debate regarding who the 'real' Zelda was, Geecku convinced me that she is usually very quiet and appologetic. This reflects an aura of innocence that should be presented in her Sacred Realm self. White is often a sign of purity, and the dove a symbol of tranquility and calm. Add in the natural symbolism of flight, and you've got yourself a heavily-layered and powerful metaphor with a simple image.




I anticipate you may have wanted to use something a little more twisted and monstrous, _L_, but I think these fit a lot better in the Sacred Realm setting. After all, even with an onset of chaos it's still the place it was before. As the Triforce is not part of its unraveling, the chaos should not affect the Sacred Realm's innate properties.



And that's my two cents for the day. Again, I'll state that Geecku helped a lot with this, so it wasn't just my idea.

[_L_]

I'd very much like not to discuss Twilight Princess until I get around to playing it. Which will be in about four weeks. (Curse you, Nintendo Australia!)

I had Zelda's "true form" as some sort of bird as well - only it was, in reflection of her strongheaded personality, a wild duck. But: as Zelda became more and more consumed by the will of Chaos (through the Triforce of Wisdom, I imagined her form would change, subtly as well.)

I like the sound of Turtle Link.

[C-Dawg]

Turtle Link opens up the possibility of alot of custom abilities to replace items, too. Swimming and diving could be enhanced, hiding in the shell could provide a good defense, perhaps the shell could provide a ride down slopes, etc.

[Nimono]

I have a couple of ideas:

1: Make Link and Zelda change according to the Sacred Realm (Dark World) principle.
2: Make them change according to the Chaos World principle (that is, they turn into monsters).
3: Make them change according to the Mirror World principle (That is, they turn into whatever is the OPPOSITE of their hearts).

Or....

Make Link and Zelda change according to the Sacred Realm/Dark World principle until you get Moon Pearls for them, but after that... The Chaos World principle kicks in (implying that the Sacred Realm's properties override those of the Chaos), thus making them monsters until they gain a NEW item. Maybe call it the Chaos Rune?

[DarkDeath]

Being that he comes off so timid and withdrawn, it would make sense that he'd become some sort of creature that held that kind of protection. Whereas the original is more of a protection from social situations, the later is one from physical harm, making it fit well with the theme of the Sacred Realm (Emotion becomes Reality).

But hes also energetic thats were the bunny came from but how about link turning into a hedgehog, like him being withdrawn he can curl into a ball, and being energetic (the energetic part comes from sonic the hedgehog of course.) he could go through small openings in HH form and roll down slopes or even climb them with claws and the protection of the spikes on his back I think he fits a hedgehog more than a turtle what do you guys think?

[_L_]

But hes also energetic thats were the bunny came fromOh?

[ShadowTiger]

(the energetic part comes from sonic the hedgehog of course.)Two different energetics from two different animals. I'd always thought that Link turns into a rabbit because of his pure and innocent heart, ... or the fact that he never speaks, and only grunts every now and then like how a rabbit squeals ever so slightly.

[DarkDeath]

I'm not trying to argue about why they made him a bunny in zelda 3 LttP,
Link turns into a rabbit because of his pure and innocent heart thats another reason they made him a bunny ST but thats not what I'm trying to say, Links energetic and a turtle isn't, is what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to narrow down an animal that fits Links personality.

[Pineconn]

Actually, I thought a wolf was supposed to fit Link's personality perfectly. ;)

[ShadowTiger]

I'm not trying to argue about why they made him a bunny in zelda 3 LttP thats another reason they made him a bunny ST but thats not what I'm trying to say Links energetic and a turtle isn't is what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to narrow down an animal that fits Links personality.
... Oh dear, ... DarkDeath, I'm really, really sorry, but I think there's something mentally wrong with me that I should do this; I was trying my best to read your post, and I was trying so hard but getting so confused, that I managed to make myself ill. Please use proper punctuation in the future, and/or fix your posts. I really can't read them. :shakeno: I'm honestly very sorry for this... I just can't read your posts.

[DarkDeath]

wow man yea, I need to fix my typing on the computer, I'm good at writing on paper well... (its faster and easier) yea... still you should think about Link the Hedgehog idea, thats all I'm really saying ST.

Oh yea this is a little off topic but what tile set are you using for this quest, just wondering.

[ShadowTiger]

There should be information in the various threads in the forum. It's based off of Radien's DoR Tileset, and then modified, primarily in the tiles and combo pages.

But please do copy/paste what you had said in your previous two posts and fix them, as I still can't read them. Thank you. :)

[broken soul]

heil zeldafan500

[The_Amaster]

Okay, stop that!

*sigh* Might as well stay on topic. I think Neofirst is using DoR, at least from what I saw. I like the turtle idea, but do think it's a bit slow for Link, who routinly saves the world within a day. What other protective animals are there?

[Russ]

Who says that the animal has to be a real animal. For instance, we could have a turtle that can remove its shell and moves quickly without the shell on, but takes less damage (like a blue ring) and moves slower with the shell on. Or how about making a entirely fictionly animal up, with no resemblences in the real world.

[The_Amaster]

A Hedgeturtahogeacockraff!

[DarkDeath]

I'm not sure but I don't think thats an animal...










just a joke lol,... no buddy comments on the hedgehog idea eh? just my spelling errors

[Russ]

I think the hedgehog is a good idea. All I am suggesting is adding a little more creativity to it. NeoFirst is supposed to be unique, right. So then what is wrong with making up a unique animal to keep the trend.

[The_Amaster]

So then what is wrong with making up a unique animal to keep the trend
Hence my Hedgeturtahogeacockraff. Which I think is an excellant idea.*sulks*

[Russ]

Hence my Hedgeturtahogeacockraff. Which I think is an excellant idea.


Good idea, but try making Link sprites that are a combonation of, how much is it, 5 different animals. Another influenciing factor on what animal is how old Link is. For instance, in LttP, when Link is a boy, he personality makes him a rabbit. However, in TP, where he is an adult, his older, more agressive personality turns him into a wolf. So how old is he in NeoFirst?