Stagnant Waters

[Dart Zaidyer]

Over the past month, I've observed a disturbing trend in the Zelda Classic community: everything has grown dangerously and depressingly stagnant.

With all of Zelda Classic's potential, especially the expanding potential of the new betas, I'm saddened to find that not only is it under-utilized, but is done so in unimaginative ways. We still see Link slogging his way through one water temple or forest temple or fire temple after another. We have approximately what, three or four decent and usable graphics sets in existence, despite that almost all of them cross over with one another in some way? Take a look at RPG Maker communities sometime. They have dozens.

Ask yourselves: Why are we still able to count the number of truly innovative quests out there on one hand?

Are quest makers that easily bored, or do they just suffer from a crippling lack of vision? Well, I'd say both of these things are true. Many authors with new and interesting ideas often shelf their work after a while and some even say "never again", like Exate, the pioneer of the original and shockingly decent Metroid quests. Many others continue to churn out retread after retread. And yes, even in the face of real, forward-thinking change that users have been asking for over the course of years, we are still faced with luddites who will actively complain about inane concerns of overcomplication.
Neofirst in particular can be cited as the ultimate example here. With the Zelda Classic community united in one project, we could have had something really unique and special! Heck, I would have loved to see some awesome new graphics and cool ideas that have never been done before, like C-Dawg's marshmallow dungeon. So what did we get?
Standard graphics pack, make some typical tweaks, toss in some tricks that everyone has done before, add your usual Forest Temple and Water/Fire dungeon, top off with a plot that comes across as someone's "epic" Zelda fanfic and ship with ZC by default. Congratulations, you've done nothing new or exciting. You've just made every quest ever.

This sort of thinking is apparently entrenched so deep in the community psyche that it's causing more and more to leave, and turning off those who are discovering the game for the first time. Why is there only one Sabotage Dragoon? Why is there only one Metroid quest that doesn't suck?

ZC enthusiasts need to be asking these questions. Otherwise, I fear what they may do to the future of such a wonderful creative tool. What will the history of the Internet have to say about Zelda Classic? Will it be "this was a fun program that let people make Zelda quests. Some of them were really great, but the rest were just like playing Nth quests or some kid's fanfic over and over and over and after a while nobody cared"? Or could it be "This thing started out as letting you make your own Zelda quests, but turned into something even cooler and went from Link killing Ganon in dungeons to stuff that's every bit as prolific as any new Nintendo game, Zelda or otherwise"?

[Pineconn]

I see what you mean. This is even found at the ZC website. It's, like, dead. It seems that nobody cares about it.

My current quest, in my opinion, is decent. But the dungeons are the standard swamp, cave, forest, ice, water, desert, graveyard, and a new "sky" dungeon, though that idea came from Minish Cap's Palace of Winds (I believe it was called). The final is a lava dungeon. Sure, they are the standard Zelda dungeons, but what's in them is really what makes or break a quest, what really makes it stand out. That's why Shoelace's Hero of Dreams is excellent; the content, the puzzles.

Plus, we all have lives. I have almost no time to work on my quest, so its release won't be for a few months.

Also, we're all kind of lazy. There has been a few (maybe twice?) times when I haven't touched my quest for 2 weeks. I just get a little... bored. Making my quest is no longer "fun," but more of a "chore." (But it really is still fun, when I'm in the mood.)

So, what's holding you back from making a tileset? ;)

[Yoshiman]

Originality is what keeps me tied to a quest. It's one of the reasons I finished "Mario's Insane Rampage" (c'mon, it was so weird you had to play it). It was an original idea. It wasn't the same old "Hey Link, go get the 8 Triforce pieces and rescue Zelda!"

I really agree with your point. I'd really like to see a lot more original quests than the basic Zelda storylines. Using other video game characters is okay, but what would be really neat would have people make up their own characters and storylines.

Which is what I'm doing for the quest I'm (lazily) working on. It has nothing to do with Zelda, and I'm trying to stray a bit from the standard formula (IE: go to the 8 elemental temples and find a "Triforce piece").

Just because it's called "Zelda Classic" doesn't mean that the quest has to be Zelda.

[Dark Nation]

[lots and lots of ranting about the low number of new/innovative quests]Fair enough. Although, once we add in all the quests you've submitted...
Dart Zaidyer's quests at PureZC (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=quests&title=&creator=Dart+Zaidyer&version=&sort=)
Dart Zaidyer's quests at ZeldaClassic (http://zeldaclassic.armageddongames.net/qdb.php?how=author&alpha=Dart+Zaidyer)
...we end up with the same number.


Neofirst in particular can be cited as the ultimate example here. With the Zelda Classic community united in one project, we could have had something really unique and special! Heck, I would have loved to see some awesome new graphics and cool ideas that have never been done before, like C-Dawg's marshmallow dungeon. So what did we get?
Standard graphics pack, make some typical tweaks, toss in some tricks that everyone has done before, add your usual Forest Temple and Water/Fire dungeon, top off with a plot that comes across as someone's "epic" Zelda fanfic and ship with ZC by default. Congratulations, you've done nothing new or exciting. You've just made every quest ever.So, things would be improved somewhat if we had used a new/completely different graphics pack? A reasonable request. Let's just use one of yours. Which one, though?
Dart Zaidyer's graphics packs at PureZC (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tilesets&title=&creator=Dart+Zaidyer&version=&sort=)

Oh. Well, maybe just some nice loose tiles of yours.
Dart Zaidyer's loose tiles at PureZC (http://www.purezc.com/index.php?page=tiles&title=&creator=Dart+Zaidyer&type=&sort=)

There we go. 4 submissions. 3 sets of Link tiles and a set of mini trees. All of which are "...standard [...], make some typical tweaks...". Still, though, I did find the trees to be interesting and quite useful. Would certainly give more room on the screen for movement as they are smaller than normal LttP trees.

Perhaps you are focusing your attention on helping with NeoFirst, as it is a "united community project".

9-26-05 (Tileset suggestion/quest purpose suggestion) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1036466&postcount=6)
9-27-05 (Graphics comment) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1036549&postcount=25)

2-27-06 (Music suggestion) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1059881&postcount=5)
2-28-06 (Tileset comment) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1060078&postcount=14)
2-28-06 (Tileset suggestion) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1060151&postcount=18)
3-1-06 (NeoFirst purpose comment/suggestion) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1060395&postcount=2)
3-3-06 (Tileset comment) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1060691&postcount=42)

8-24-06 (Subscreen submission) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1088070&postcount=26)
8-24-06 (Subscreen comment) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1088111&postcount=29)
8-24-06 (Vote) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1088128&postcount=2)

10 posts to the NeoFirst forum since its creation. Only 4 of those are actually suggestions and 1 is an actual submission. Perhaps you are making a unique dungeon to counteract all of the horrid staple dungeons you so despise.

2-27-06 (ShadowTiger mentions your name in a quote of your third post listed above) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1059891&postcount=6)
9-26-05 (Freedom mentions your name in a quote of your first post listed above) (http://www.armageddongames.net/showpost.php?p=1036528&postcount=23)

So, if you are making any contributions to this "united community project", nobody has mentioned it in the forum.

Having said all of that, I agree with your assessment of the state of things. The ZC community is growing a bit stagnant. However, other than standing on a soap box and pointing out questions that "ZC enthusiasts need to be asking", what are you doing to improve the situation? Questions are nice, but answers are better.

"It is far easier to complain than to contribute." -Unknown
"There is nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others." - Randal Graves
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." - Sydney J. Harris

[Imprisoned]

I totally agree, everyone is like "ZOMG, now I know how to open SHUTTERS, I'm going to make a new quest! The name is going to be "Link Rescues Zelda by Getting 8 Triforce Pieces And Killing Ganon"! Wow! Excellent!!






3 months later...

Yaay. I... finished the 1st level... agh this is stupid, I'll just make a dungeon with all the triforces and ganon in the end... then I'll submit it... this is boring...

3 years later...

Hey.... whats this Zelda Classic? Oh ya its the questmaking program... well i dont remember how to open shutters but I'll just start making a looooong quest...

Repeat "3 months later"

[ZTC]

Back 6 years ago, I found out about ZC and decided to make my own 'awesome' quest. Fast forward 6 years later, and it still isn't done. Due to stuff in real life, I lost interest in Zquesting a couple a times, and I've found it hard to get back into. I really dunno if I have the time/energy to work with ZC anymore. (which is really sad) We really need solutions to this problem.

[ShadowTiger]

Well, if we are going to do something about it, then ... I think that what we don't want to do is force people to do stuff. People will work at their own rate, and release whatever they see fit to. It's their own work, and their own permissions will apply.

Do also remember that there's no money being exchanged whatsoever in ZC terms. If you want to see something amazing, PM people and ask them what they're doing. If you want them to do something, then ask them politely to do it, and find out if they can, and have the time to do so.

[C-Dawg]

Bear in mind, too, that building off of what is already done is a really efficent way to go about quest building. I don't think ZQuest's graphics have stagnated at all. What has happened is that the really good tiles get re-used and refined, and the old ones fall away. Look at the current best tileset, Dance of Rememberance. It combines the best of Pure, LttP, and a wide variety of other sources, ripped and custom. And it's a beautiful set to design with because of the care taken to set it up.

Sabotage Dragoon is my attempt to do exactly what you're suggesting - start with a bare bones tileset and then make everything else by scratch. The goal is to have a game designed based on interesting ideas, not on the limitations of any given tileset. The result is very slow progress. I'm on year three with it. Scripting is going to make progress immeasurably faster once I get the hang of it, true, but it's also going to require going back and re-working alot of the quest that can now be done much more cleanly using scripts and freeform combos.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are advantages to all quest design methods. Is a truly original quest just plain better? I daresay it is. But it's quality over quantity, baby, so you can't complain about not seeing too many of them.

[Petoe]

Quality over quantity indeed!

The thread starter may not understand that making the kind of quests he is hoping to see more of aren't finished in a week or two. Not even in months. It takes years and years. Sabotage Dragoon is a good example. Is it an awesome quest? It sure looks like it will be and I can tell you that it is one of those rare quests that I really can't wait to play! But when will it be finished? Who knows, maybe not even C-Dawg himself. ;)

That's why we are seeing so many "just another Zelda" quests, because it is so much easier to build them and not so time consuming when you have tilesets and everything ready and finished.
For example the group quest I am working on with DFW, it is based on the pure set. Nowadays the Pure set looks boring and bland, true, but that's a good basis for something great, and I have been editing the tileset heavily to get some pretty and original results. Because of the decision to make the quest with the pure set, the quest will probably be finished in a few months. If we had decided to go 100% custom, I'm afraid the quest would never have been finished.
Will the quest be something revolutionizing and unbeliveably original? Nope, but it should be solid as a rock and offer hours of fun, thanks to the new features that make questmakin faster and allow for some neat trciks. Of course, if there were 2 very good quests with one being a Zelda quest and one being a Mario/Final Fantasy/Something original quest, I would pick the later option, but I think we should just be happy that we are still seeing quests released and even good ones even though questmaking has become so much more complex and demanding.

Dunno if Imade much sense, but had to say something. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of original and custom work and now that I am part of making a Zelda quest myself, my Zelda quest defending may seem hypocritical or something like that. But from the experience I had with Megs Man - Dr. Wily's Revenge DC I learned that sometimes it's just fun to make smaller quests and concentrate on the gameplay more than creating pretty and custom graphics. i guess that's one of the reason why MMDWR DC has so many flaws as it has, I tried too hard to make it so "revolutionary" and "you havent seen this trick before, ha!" kind of quest that maybe the gameplay suffered a bit. But enough of my own projects. I pretty much agree with everything what C said so I'll end the post here. :p

[Freedom]

What stopped me cold, is I guess my own impatience.
(and the fact I'm trying to get my house ready to sell)

I got tired of waiting for a stable bug free beta that I could actually build and release a good quest in.
The 2.10 has 2 game stopping bugs, the map and the shops.
If a shop decides not to show up, then whoever is playing the quest is not only finished at that point, but they are PISSED OFF as well.
Why put months into a project just to get people pissed off at me?

When the focus went to adding features at an allarming rate, and the bugs increased to record numbers in the beta releases, then I figured it would be years at best before a bug free release would ever come, so I decided to find something else to do until that day arrives.

I did however beta test from before the 2.10 (193-A3) release until the 2.11b12 release, in hopes of seeing a stable release, so I feel I did give it a good chance toward a stable release, it just seems others feel that new features are more important than a release that quality quests can actually be built in.
It also seems that the ones screaming more more more never release quests, so I have to wonder why their opinions are given priority of the folks that DO build quests and have been asking for several years now for a stable release.

You can say it's become stagnant because of the available graphics if you want, but I believe it has more to do with the fact that every release since the 190 has serious bugs that screw up peoples quests that they invested months of their lives building.

[Dart Zaidyer]

Way to go Dark Nation for letting the air out of my tires. I really don't have much to stand on for this argument, but to be fair, I hadn't actually considered it until recently.

Mainly, I'm dissatisfied that the community at large is content to sit right where it is. They're afraid of bugs so much that they are complaining about having the option to work with newer betas and features like scripting. A few shining examples of innovative work are nice, but "few" is the key word here.

[DarkFlameWolf]

What stopped me cold, is I guess my own impatience.
(and the fact I'm trying to get my house ready to sell)

I got tired of waiting for a stable bug free beta that I could actually build and release a good quest in.
The 2.10 has 2 game stopping bugs, the map and the shops.
If a shop decides not to show up, then whoever is playing the quest is not only finished at that point, but they are PISSED OFF as well.
Why put months into a project just to get people pissed off at me?

When the focus went to adding features at an allarming rate, and the bugs increased to record numbers in the beta releases, then I figured it would be years at best before a bug free release would ever come, so I decided to find something else to do until that day arrives.

I did however beta test from before the 2.10 (193-A3) release until the 2.11b12 release, in hopes of seeing a stable release, so I feel I did give it a good chance toward a stable release, it just seems others feel that new features are more important than a release that quality quests can actually be built in.
It also seems that the ones screaming more more more never release quests, so I have to wonder why their opinions are given priority of the folks that DO build quests and have been asking for several years now for a stable release.

You can say it's become stagnant because of the available graphics if you want, but I believe it has more to do with the fact that every release since the 190 has serious bugs that screw up peoples quests that they invested months of their lives building.

We are actually having a discussion in the beta forum about this very topic.

[Pineconn]

This is even found at the ZC website. It's, like, dead. It seems that nobody cares about it.

We used to have a conversation about this.

:unhappy:

[rocksfan13]

We used to have a conversation about this.

:unhappy:

Yes we did. And we got some answers. But they were short lived. Eckels worked of the Main site for a little bit but what he is doing with it now, if anything at the moment (No offense Eckels, I know you are enjoying your time with your son), now has had no improvement.

I would love see nothing more than to see the main site back up and running again. Especially now that a bug free 2.10 is being worked on. People are going to want to use it again. The thrill of a ZC 2.5 just makes it worse. It would be nice if everything was up and running smoothly again by the time these two things go puplic.

P.S. Sorry about the delay. Been out for a while.

[DarkFlameWolf]

Well as stated, I may not have enough time, but I have enough time to update a hell of a lot more than what's being done now. Furthermore, I've had experiece running websites before, having a few of my own in the past. I may not be up to speed on a few of the new web languages, but give me the basic instructions on how to update/run, and I'm set to go.

[rocksfan13]

The only problem with that is trying to get a hold of Eckels. By what I know, he's the only one that really knows how the main site is supposed to run.

Amen to you if you do manage to grab him. Maybe he'll let you help.:shrug:

[Nimono]

No one's made a decent Metroid quest in years? Wait for my Metroid: The Chozo Prophecy quest. I plan on it being HUGE, and now with scripting, if I can finish this AFTER item scripting comes out, I'll script not only true Metroid-style Beams, but also a true Ice Beam that freezes enemies. About the "getting 8 Triforces and saving Zelda"? My Realm of Mirrors quest has NOTHING to do with Zelda- She most likely won't even be in it! It's about collecting 8 Mirror Hourglasses to save the Realm of Mirrors from an unusal perpetual winter. Nayru's Quest also has nothing to do with Zelda. She will NEVER be seen in it. Instead, you must collect the 8 Triforce Pieces of the Triforce (No witty name for it just yet. :P) to gain access to the Star Island Temple so you can save Nayru's new home, Star Island (and it'll have a surprising ending. ;)). Link the Magician? It starts out with you trying to become Hyrule's greatest Magician. Simple as that (Or is it?). Basically, few of my quests have to do with saving Zelda. Let's see... Adventure in Mysteria does, Legend of the Jewels doesn't, my unnamed quest right now does... and that's it. See? Only Adventure in Mysteria, that unnamed quest, and Adventure in Mysteria DX have to do with saving Zelda. All my other quests have NOTHING to do with that! :spin:

[Pineconn]

The only problem with that is trying to get a hold of Eckels. By what I know, he's the only one that really knows how the main site is supposed to run.

Amen to you if you do manage to grab him. Maybe he'll let you help.:shrug:

Remember how we tried to get him back in April? Didn't exactly work; he didn't come till July. But IF we can get him and he passes the site to someone reliable (and active), we're set to go.

[Zelda_Warrior]

What's the story of Tygore? Didn't they give the site onwership to them and then they just never did anything? Or do I not know what i'm talking about?

[Tygore]

Basically, what happened was I agreed to run the database and deal with updates, keeping up with submissions, that sort of thing. When I took hold of the site, it took me not very long to figure out that good portions of code had, for lack of a better term, ceased to be functional. While maintaining the site was simple enough, repairing the code was not something I had in mind when I volunteered. Then Eckels came back and said he was going to be fixing the site, at which point I stepped back to let him do his thing, and left running of the site to be something decided after all repairs were made. As you can probably see, Eckels seems to have stopped work and once again we are left in limbo.

I could take a look at the current submissions queue and see if there's anything I can upload, but I can't guarantee it will all work (for instance, when I was handling updates, screenshots wouldn't activate at all and the right-hand update bar wouldn't update).

On a semi-related note, if the person who thinks that the quest submission form is a request form is currently reading this: it's not. No matter how many times you ask Freedom to make your Metal Gear quest or Warlock to make a ZC version of The Wind Waker, it's not going to happen because I never tell them about it, barring them reading this post.

[Freedom]

On a semi-related note, if the person who thinks that the quest submission form is a request form is currently reading this: it's not. No matter how many times you ask Freedom to make your Metal Gear quest or Warlock to make a ZC version of The Wind Waker, it's not going to happen because I never tell them about it, barring them reading this post.

ok.... I'm reading, but it still aint gonna happen. ;)

[Pineconn]

Lol. :lol:

Tygore, I think Eckels did fix a good majority of the database code. I know the last thing he worked on was the screenshot code and it works, so the sight *might* be fixed to the point of decent operation. I'm sure it would be appreciated by all of us if you could maintain the site at least until you want to pass it off to other people. You know, maybe make a home page update or something... The ZC community seems to be getting smaller.

[rocksfan13]

I agree with Pineconn, Tygore.

If there is any remote possibility that there can be some kind of update, anything to make it look like ZC.com hasn't died. PLease try it. Hey if it doesn't work, then at least you can't say you didn't try.

[Pineconn]

Definitely. I'm sure I speak for all of when I say we want the website brought back up to standards.

Two years ago when I first joined, the website was running and loading new quests extremely often. If that instance would have happened now, I probably would not have joined due to the lack of updates.

This also ties in with the "stagnant waters" issue.