Wii Virtual Console

[Matteo]

They just released an updated list of the Virtual Console games slated for 2006. It seems a bit lacking in the Nintendo department, but some stellar Genesis games are on the list.

Included is an updated list of the 2006 Wii titles and VC titles.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/742/742962p1.html


Will the Virtual Console have online capabilities; will I be able to play Ice Hockey with others online?

If not, boo you Nintendo!

The VC has the capability to surpass XBL Arcade if two things happen:

1. Large Selection of Titles.
2. Online Capabilities.

Really, if all Nintendo did was work on porting old games onto the VC and re-designing the interface and implementing online gameplay, they could win the console war. Who wouldn't want to play the countless classics on NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, online? Imagine the possibilities...

[Orion]

Probably not online. The whole game would have to be reworked if you'd want to play it online. So I doubt they'd ever do that with a VC game, and if they did, it'd probably be on a more popular game lke Goldeneye.

I was suprised at the lackluster VC list as well, but it's probably to be expected. At launch, I'm sure they wanna focus on the actual Wii games. The good VC titles will come...

[Matteo]

I know nothing about coding, but how insanely difficult could it be to rework a game for online? Especially if it's already got multiplayer? If the individual companies (such as Tecmo - TSB heh heh) reworked them, it would be simple. I guess they might be waiting to see how the sales go. I sometimes feel like Nintendo is run by a bunch of idiots, it makes so much sense to make the games online capable!!! They will sell better too! I personally would rather they charge us a yearly fee for a XBL type service., than to continue to ignore the online gaming scene.

[Breaker]

I remember reading an IGN article that the VC games would be capable of playing online with others.

[Aegix Drakan]

I sometimes feel like Nintendo is run by a bunch of idiots

then who's running sony?

@breaker: IGN is NOT a trustworthy source. I've read a fair share of their reviews, and many of the are WAAAAYY off the mark. >_> I've used this example before, but when they reviewed Shadow th eHedgehog, they didn't realize that Shadow had airshoes, and thought that him "skating" all over the place was a glitch...

[Warlock]

Seriously, wtf:
http://wii.ign.com/articles/743/743043p1.html

Why does Japan get Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World, ALTTP, Super Castlevania (!), and Super Contra (!!)? Plus a ton more NES/SNES titles than us.

[ZTC]

(didn't notice Warlock's post)
wtf

In addition to the different lineups, there also appear to be some pricing differences between territories. In Japan, Genesis games are going for 600 Wii points. In America, Genesis titles will retail for 800 Wii points. Add in currency differences, and Japanese gamers are paying between two and three dollars less for Genesis titles.
now that's some bullshit right there =/

[Cloral]

I know nothing about coding, but how insanely difficult could it be to rework a game for online? Especially if it's already got multiplayer?

A lot harder than you think. There are a ton of issues that come up when you go online that don't exist on an offline multiplayer game. For instance, what do you do if some of the other guy's packets get dropped?

That said, the SNES did have the XPlay modem accessory that allowed for online multiplayer on a number of games, so online for the SNES should be able to work in the same way. After all, I was able to play Smash TV online with a friend using ZSNES.

[Orion]

I dunno, it's not like we're "not getting the games." We're just not getting them right away. I'm sure the big titles will come eventually. Besides, we get the Wii a few weeks earlier anyway, and I'll take that advantage any day.

[Warlock]

I dunno, it's not like we're "not getting the games." We're just not getting them right away. I'm sure the big titles will come eventually. Besides, we get the Wii a few weeks earlier anyway, and I'll take that advantage any day.

Still, at 10 games a month (and this list is until the end of December already), that is a long wait for many of them.

I am especially miffed at the lack of SNES titles though. I mean seriously, TWO GAMES? There's not even SMW there which is more bizare. I'm also mad at the lack of N64 titles, but at least we are equal with Japan there. And at least the one they are putting out there is SM64 which is pretty much a requirement :P

[Kairyu]

The article says that the Japanese list isn't final. I'd assume the US and European lists aren't either.


I know nothing about coding, but how insanely difficult could it be to rework a game for online? Especially if it's already got multiplayer?
Like Cloral said, it's a bit more complicated than just adding a line that says "Multiplayer" to the source code.


If the individual companies (such as Tecmo - TSB heh heh) reworked them, it would be simple.
Possibly, most likely not. They'd need the original source code (not a sure thing with older games) to make it 'easy,' and even then, the systems simply weren't designed with online play in mind.


I sometimes feel like Nintendo is run by a bunch of idiots, it makes so much sense to make the games online capable!!! They will sell better too!
It'd make more sense to consumers and sell better if they cut the price to 50 cents, but that doesn't mean it's gonna happen.


I personally would rather they charge us a yearly fee for a XBL type service., than to continue to ignore the online gaming scene.
They aren't 'ignoring' it, they just aren't ready yet. You can't just buy a bunch of servers and say, "Okay, we've got online gameplay!"


(didn't notice Warlock's post)
wtf
Quote:In addition to the different lineups, there also appear to be some pricing differences between territories. In Japan, Genesis games are going for 600 Wii points. In America, Genesis titles will retail for 800 Wii points. Add in currency differences, and Japanese gamers are paying between two and three dollars less for Genesis titles.

now that's some bullshit right there =/
Not really. Americans generally get a lower price on everything else, don't they?

[vegeta1215]

I don't mind if it takes a while for games to pop up on the Virtual Console. If they need some more time to improve the games so they work flawlessly (or if they need more time improve the emulators), they can take all the time they need.

It would be nice to play Majora's Mask in high res like from the Zelda Collector's Edition disc minus the frame rate problems and occasional slowdown/crashes. Also, I can't wait for Squaresoft games - I have my fingers crossed for SD3 coming to the VC someday.

[MottZilla]

Seriously, wtf:
http://wii.ign.com/articles/743/743043p1.html

Why does Japan get Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World, ALTTP, Super Castlevania (!), and Super Contra (!!)? Plus a ton more NES/SNES titles than us.

Because the japanese launch is like 2 weeks after ours, thus actually we will have those games available by then, not at our launch, but by theirs. I agree that it's strange how they get to have all those gems right off the bat out there, but then again we get to start hacking at it weeks ahead of them.

And I certainly hope online play is supported. And it'd be even better if they would hack/tweak certain games like Star Fox 64/Mario Kart 64 so that when played online your screen would take the full screen rather than be split screen.

[Dark Nation]

If they really wanted to make the VC take off with fans, they should release BS-Zelda and BS-Zelda 3 for it. Possibly even make a BS-style Zelda 1 and 2 (like Super Mario All-Stars).

[Warlock]

Because the japanese launch is like 2 weeks after ours, thus actually we will have those games available by then, not at our launch, but by theirs. I agree that it's strange how they get to have all those gems right off the bat out there, but then again we get to start hacking at it weeks ahead of them.

No, both lists are "up to the end of the year", not launch lists. That arguement doesn't fly.

Also, Nintendo is only supposively adding about 10 games per month. There are more than 10 extra games on there (49 vs our 30), esp considering it's not even a full month afterwards :P

[Breaker]

While the gameplay will remain unchanged for all of the classic titles offered via the Virtual Console, Nintendo has stated that some of the games may be improved with sharper graphics or better framerates. In addition, gamers may be able to download games that were not previously released in their region, and some multiplayer games may be playable online, if it is technically possible.

At E3 2006's Wii Conference, a Virtual Console demo was shown with the following games being downloaded: The Legend of Zelda, Excitebike, Punch-Out!!, F-Zero, Super Metroid, Super Mario Kart, Mario Kart 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, and Wave Race 64. Whether these games will be available for downloading remains to be seen.


we'll just have to wait and see.

[MottZilla]

If they really wanted to make the VC take off with fans, they should release BS-Zelda and BS-Zelda 3 for it. Possibly even make a BS-style Zelda 1 and 2 (like Super Mario All-Stars).

If Nintendo still employs people from the SNES era, that's certainly a possibility atleast in japan. Afterall, if hobbyists can hack the ROM, Nintendo's staff shouldn't have a problem with it either and they should have the source code anyway.

[Matteo]

If companies are going to take our money for a game they have already made, they need to at least give online play. We are paying money so that they can go and convert these games!!!

If Nintendo simply allows the capability of online VC gaming, then I will be satisfied. The 3rd Party companies who are re-releasing these titles would have to be idiots not to try and incorporate online multiplayer into these titles in the current video game market.

This current market is rampant. I mean, look at how successful XBL Arcade is. Most of the titles are rather weak (there are some great ones), yet Microsoft has reported huge sales. What smart business wouldn't want to copy-cat that success? These 3rd Party companies would jump at that chance.

[vegeta1215]

If companies are going to take our money for a game they have already made, they need to at least give online play. We are paying money so that they can go and convert these games!!!

If Nintendo simply allows the capability of online VC gaming, then I will be satisfied. The 3rd Party companies who are re-releasing these titles would have to be idiots not to try and incorporate online multiplayer into these titles in the current video game market.

This current market is rampant. I mean, look at how successful XBL Arcade is. Most of the titles are rather weak (there are some great ones), yet Microsoft has reported huge sales. What smart business wouldn't want to copy-cat that success? These 3rd Party companies would jump at that chance.

Hmmm... let's see... I'm a 3rd party company and I can sell my game on the Virtual Console without doing any work and make lots of money, or I could spend some money and allocate the resources of my company to make sure my 10+ year old game is playable online, in the hopes that it will help me sell that much more. Such a tough decision...

Seriously, it's silly to think companies are going to spend a lot of money and resources just to make their old old OLD games playable online through the Virtual Console. I don't know how the Virtual Console works (only Nintendo does), so we can't say whether it's even feasible. I'm sure if it is feasible, we will see some old games get the online treatment, but they don't owe use anything.

Buying a game on the Virtual Console is no different than buying the actual cartidge - you're just getting it through a different means. You're still buying a game. How many times have people re-bought the original Pac-man?


UPDATE: I was thinking, and it's not really fair to compare the VC with X-Box live arcade - at least not in your argument. In the VC, you will be buying the ROMs of old games, and playing them through an emulator. If I had to guess, games on X-Box live are probably written for that console - all those old arcade games (that have already been re-written for numerous systems since their inception) were just ported over. They aren't running in an emulator. Now, I'm not saying we won't see original content delivered for Wii via the Shop Channel, but if we do, I'm sure it will be written for the Wii, and not specifically tied into the VC.

[punkonjunk1024]

Still, at 10 games a month (and this list is until the end of December already), that is a long wait for many of them.

I am especially miffed at the lack of SNES titles though. I mean seriously, TWO GAMES? There's not even SMW there which is more bizare. I'm also mad at the lack of N64 titles, but at least we are equal with Japan there. And at least the one they are putting out there is SM64 which is pretty much a requirement :P

SMW is a popular GBA game. Why release it for 5ish bucks on the VC when it's still 20 at a gamestore?

I figure... if emulators can play online, it can't be hard for us to play online VC, too. Frankly, if it's not, I'll probobly mostly stick to emulation for classic systems.

[Matteo]

It is far from silly to think that a business would try to spend money to make even more money. Thats what most businesses attempt everyday. Why do you presume that alot of money is needed to convert a game to online play.? I don't know how much it would cost Tecmo to convert Tecmo Super Bowl to the VC and make it online capable. How much will it cost to only convert it to the VC? How much of difference money wise would that be? 10's of thousands? That kind of money would seem to be very worthy to me when I might sell 500,000 copies of a game at 5 dollars each. People will go nuts, apeshit, over an online TSB on a console, over any of there old NES, SNES, Genesis, N64 classics online capable. When a game is just a ROM ported onto an emulator, its just a collector's piece, a lark. When a game is given online multiplayer and possibly new features it becomes a topic of conversation and a great selling piece.

How many people would not have downloaded Gauntlet or Smash TV (just two examples) for the XBLA if they didn't have online Multiplayer. Most people. I only downloaded/bought those games because they were online. That was my chief reason. We are living in a different age when it comes to multiplayer gaming. Local multiplayer just doesn't cut it anymore. Videogame companies recognize this, they are aware of market trends, they are businesses. Hopefully some of them will push Nintendo to fully realize the VC.

[Kairyu]

It is far from silly to think that a business would try to spend money to make even more money. Thats what most businesses attempt everyday. Why do you presume that alot of money is needed to convert a game to online play.? I don't know how much it would cost Tecmo to convert Tecmo Super Bowl to the VC and make it online capable. How much will it cost to only convert it to the VC? How much of difference money wise would that be? 10's of thousands? That kind of money would seem to be very worthy to me when I might sell 500,000 copies of a game at 5 dollars each. People will go nuts, apeshit, over an online TSB on a console, over any of there old NES, SNES, Genesis, N64 classics online capable. When a game is just a ROM ported onto an emulator, its just a collector's piece, a lark. When a game is given online multiplayer and possibly new features it becomes a topic of conversation and a great selling piece.

How many people would not have downloaded Gauntlet or Smash TV (just two examples) for the XBLA if they didn't have online Multiplayer. Most people. I only downloaded/bought those games because they were online. That was my chief reason. We are living in a different age when it comes to multiplayer gaming. Local multiplayer just doesn't cut it anymore. Videogame companies recognize this, they are aware of market trends, they are businesses. Hopefully some of them will push Nintendo to fully realize the VC.
I keep getting this overwhelming impression that you don't know all that much about adding online play to a game. I know a very small amount, but it's enough to know that it's really just not worth it for a LOT of games.
There are certainly exceptions (i.e. Gauntlet, Smash TV), but those are exceptions, not the rule. Who would care if you added online multiplayer to SMB, SMB3, SMW? Some of the greatest games ever made? Probably half a dozen people at most. The games weren't designed for multiplayer.

The thing is, like vegeta1215 said, when companies are remaking games for XBL, they're basically porting it to a different system. They're reworking the code to make it work with another console anyway. I'd assume XBL and the X360 both have plenty of design specs and tools easily available. When a company releases a game on the WVC, they may not need to do anything more than dump a cart and make a few tweaks to it. For them to change these NES/SNES/GEN/etc. games, they'll need to have people working for them who still understand how those systems worked. Systems have gotten easier to program for over time- they're using high-level languages instead of assembly now.

It's not like I wouldn't like to see a lot more Online games. But that doesn't mean I don't understand the difficulty involved.

[MottZilla]

Ya emulation + netplay is not a new thing. The Virtual Console for classic games require little to no effort really. As long as the emulator supports netplay then any game could. I certainly would love to see them release Super Bomberman's 3, 4, and 5 in North America finally and have 5 player netplay.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

There's a lot to read here, so forgive me if I'm repeating something that's already been said.

At any rate, Japanese Wii probably needs to be more competitive at launch, so lower prices and more VC games are in order. Economics are very different between countries, and since Japan has different media laws than we do, it's not surprising at all to me that their prices are slightly different (though I can't say for certain if that has anything to do with it).

Second, I forgot what I was going to say.

Third, maybe Nintendo is retooling old games before releasing them, similar to the way that Microsoft is releasing patches for the 360 to allow backwards compatability compliance. Since it was pointed out earlier that emulators like ZSNES allow internet play, it's entirely possible that old games might be modded to allow distant users to play as if they were connected to the same machine (as in the olden days).

Fourth, I remembered what I was going to say for number two: why SMW on the VC is $8, and for the GBA, it's $20. Can you say portability? You can't take your Wii to school with you to play in class, or on a city bus, or on a plane, or into the bathroom. That extra cash, apart from paying for physical material costs, buys you convenience. And people will pay for that.

[Orion]

There's a couple of interesting theories as to why there aren't many N64 games on the Virtual Console. The first is that they could compete with the releasing Wii games. The second is that Nintendo is afraid of people using up the internal memory right away. And the Third is that Nintendo is taking more time because it's more difficult to get the N64 games to emulate correctly. THey all make a little sense I guess.

[MottZilla]

Orion, the only reason that makes sense is that the N64 is difficult to emulate accurately, and infact impossible to emulate with 100% accuracy on the Wii's hardware. N64 emulation on the Wii will likely use Dynarec and HLE which is the way popular PC based N64 emulators work. It's fast but not as accurate. But with fine tuning on a per game basis (which is certainly possible for them to do) they can certainly achieve the results required for a commercial product. Atleast it should be much better than the god awful N64 emulator for GameCube used on the Zelda OoT Bonus disc. Part of the issue with that was the lack of sufficant RAM to even hold the ROM image. Not to mention you need more memory when working with DynaRec.

Really I don't see how N64 games would compete with Wii games at all. And the internal memory being used up also I don't buy that because they will gladly sell you a nintendo branded SD card to make a profit.

Anyway, I just hope they do a good job in making certain each game runs properly with the best degree of accuracy possible.

[Grasshopper]

And the internal memory being used up also I don't buy that because they will gladly sell you a nintendo branded SD card to make a profit.

Yeah, those are just way too much money.

[Warlock]

N64 game is what, 4megs? Nintendo's own memory card is 512mb (ignoring Wii flash memory which I think you can save to - can't remember - and also a couple megs of flash on each wiimote). And since the Wii supports SD cards I've already picked up a 2gb sandisk card ahead of time :D

Anyways, they obviously got something working for Majora's Mask on the Zelda CE disk (not even talking about OoT since that was sort of done specifically to work with GC way ahead of time for Wind Waker's bonus). I gotta think they've got some sort of emulation software already designed in-house that works well. Whether Majora's was tuned as well, I don't know. But it did run pretty well, and that was a 4mb expansion game (which usually run fairly crappy on PC emulators). So I think Nintendo will be fine.

But I do imagine they've got to at least test the games and make a few tweaks here and there before they release them. So yeah, I can understand the slowness on getting N64 stuff out there.

What I don't understand though, is the lack of SNES stuff (for US - Japan got a ton). No reason for that at all.

[Matteo]

I keep getting this overwhelming impression that you don't know all that much about adding online play to a game. I know a very small amount, but it's enough to know that it's really just not worth it for a LOT of games.
There are certainly exceptions (i.e. Gauntlet, Smash TV), but those are exceptions, not the rule. Who would care if you added online multiplayer to SMB, SMB3, SMW? Some of the greatest games ever made? Probably half a dozen people at most. The games weren't designed for multiplayer.

The thing is, like vegeta1215 said, when companies are remaking games for XBL, they're basically porting it to a different system. They're reworking the code to make it work with another console anyway. I'd assume XBL and the X360 both have plenty of design specs and tools easily available. When a company releases a game on the WVC, they may not need to do anything more than dump a cart and make a few tweaks to it. For them to change these NES/SNES/GEN/etc. games, they'll need to have people working for them who still understand how those systems worked. Systems have gotten easier to program for over time- they're using high-level languages instead of assembly now.

It's not like I wouldn't like to see a lot more Online games. But that doesn't mean I don't understand the difficulty involved.


So because its hard to do, my needs as a consumer are therefore not valid?

It seems like you are trying to nitpick my posts and stance on this because I am not as knowledgable as you about coding etc. Now that we all understand that you understand the difficulty involved I think we can all sleep better at night.

I want online gaming from VC games that should provide it. That's all. Is is not an unrealistic expectation. Again, the consumers are willing and are going to pay for these games. We deserve online play. Don't defend companies who for a little work (a little compared to the million plus spent on the latest next-gen game) can transform an old title into one that will make them alot of money.

[MottZilla]

N64 game is what, 4megs? Nintendo's own memory card is 512mb (ignoring Wii flash memory which I think you can save to - can't remember - and also a couple megs of flash on each wiimote). And since the Wii supports SD cards I've already picked up a 2gb sandisk card ahead of time :D

Anyways, they obviously got something working for Majora's Mask on the Zelda CE disk (not even talking about OoT since that was sort of done specifically to work with GC way ahead of time for Wind Waker's bonus). I gotta think they've got some sort of emulation software already designed in-house that works well. Whether Majora's was tuned as well, I don't know. But it did run pretty well, and that was a 4mb expansion game (which usually run fairly crappy on PC emulators). So I think Nintendo will be fine.

But I do imagine they've got to at least test the games and make a few tweaks here and there before they release them. So yeah, I can understand the slowness on getting N64 stuff out there.

What I don't understand though, is the lack of SNES stuff (for US - Japan got a ton). No reason for that at all.

The smallest N64 games (a minority too) are 4MB(bytes). The largest are 64MB. There are only 5 of those though. But the general sizes are 8MB, 16MB, and 32MB. Most of the later games are 32MB.

Next, "getting it working" isn't hard. Corn (the original N64 emulator to attempt DynaRec if I recall) had Zelda and other games "working". But you can't just have them working, they need to be performing correctly with no apparent glitches. Again the best way to do this is a single emulator with settings for each game to run optimally, or actually different emulator builds specific to the game which would work too. Also, FYI, the N64 emulator used on OoT and MM was not very good. While it would run a few other games (not properly) it was FAR from competing with the likes of emulators like NEMU, 1964, or PJ64.

Oh ya and the expansion pack is 4MB of extra RAM... Ya... not hard to emulate at all man. PC emulators have emulated that for ages.

[Kairyu]

So because its hard to do, my needs as a consumer are therefore not valid?
Um, it's not really a 'need.' It's a want. And it's therefore not absolute. It doesn't make it invalid, it just means it's not something that's gotta be in there no matter what.


It seems like you are trying to nitpick my posts and stance on this because I am not as knowledgable as you about coding etc. Now that we all understand that you understand the difficulty involved I think we can all sleep better at night.
I am focusing on your posts in particular, but that's because you keep talking about how you think Nintendo is stupid because you don't know what games will and will not be online. We already know at least some of them will be online, but Nintendo isn't run by idiots just because we don't have a concrete list yet.
Looking back through my posts, I didn't actually mention that there are (as far as I know) already plans for online VC games, so I'm sorry if you got the impression that I thought none of the games should be online. I guess I'm trying to say, stop bashing Nintendo because you want all of the VC games possible to be online.
Besides, Mottzilla already showed up my knowledge of online gaming. He's right (and I think I should look into N64 emulators with netplay).


I want online gaming from VC games that should provide it. That's all.
Okay, I apoligize. I misinterpreted your posts, and I'm sorry.


Is is not an unrealistic expectation. Again, the consumers are willing and are going to pay for these games. We deserve online play. Don't defend companies who for a little work (a little compared to the million plus spent on the latest next-gen game) can transform an old title into one that will make them alot of money.
I'm not so sure about the 'lot of money' part. Online games require maintainence and servers. Those are things you keep paying for. On XBL, there's a yearly fee to cover those costs. On the Wii... I'm not sure what they plan to do. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure how they cover the NDS' online service. Do they include it with the cost of the system, with the games, with a little of everything... ?

[Warlock]

I'm not so sure about the 'lot of money' part. Online games require maintainence and servers. Those are things you keep paying for. On XBL, there's a yearly fee to cover those costs. On the Wii... I'm not sure what they plan to do. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure how they cover the NDS' online service. Do they include it with the cost of the system, with the games, with a little of everything... ?

Virtual Console really covers it - it's basically just emulating roms. So it doesn't take a lot of money to set that up.

[MottZilla]

FYI, NDS games and Wii games will work similar to battle.net in that it's a match making service. But the actual game is run between players, there's no dedicated server running the game like in World of WarCraft. So it doesn't cost much and could be supported via some in-service ad space.

And as Warlock pointed out, the work to release VC games isn't that much. Infact if you have a truely accurate emulator you only need like 1 guy to just sorta play through the thing for you. So releasing them is very cheap, esspecially since unlike collections lately, you don't have the marketing and packaging/mastering expenses that take away from profits. The VC could be a real cash machine for Nintendo if they can get it going. One thing that is a real shame is that games like Battletoads and Snake Rattle n' Roll (RARE games) won't appear on VC. ='(

[Warlock]

FYI, NDS games and Wii games will work similar to battle.net in that it's a match making service. But the actual game is run between players, there's no dedicated server running the game like in World of WarCraft. So it doesn't cost much and could be supported via some in-service ad space.

And as Warlock pointed out, the work to release VC games isn't that much. Infact if you have a truely accurate emulator you only need like 1 guy to just sorta play through the thing for you. So releasing them is very cheap, esspecially since unlike collections lately, you don't have the marketing and packaging/mastering expenses that take away from profits. The VC could be a real cash machine for Nintendo if they can get it going. One thing that is a real shame is that games like Battletoads and Snake Rattle n' Roll (RARE games) won't appear on VC. ='(

God I hated Battletoads :P

The only Rare game I'd really want is Goldeneye, and honestly there is more an issue with MGM than Rare on that.

[vegeta1215]

Battletoads is a fun game, but I don't think I ever got past the part where you ride hover crafts through that pink area where you have to dodge the walls that come at you. :(

[Warlock]

Battletoads is a fun game, but I don't think I ever got past the part where you ride hover crafts through that pink area where you have to dodge the walls that come at you. :(

Yeah, that's what I didn't like about it. It wasn't "challenging hard", it was "stupid hard". It was more about being lucky than skillful most of the time.

To be honest, other than the aforementioned Goldeneye, and the first Perfect Dark (though I havn't played the 360 version), Rare has never really released a game I liked. I hated all the Banjo games with a passion. DKC was fun for about 30 mins and then got old really, really fast. Star Fox Adventures was an absolute joke of a terrible game. I never played Conker, but I honestly don't care that I havn't either.. I dunno, other than their FPSers they didn't really do much impressive. They just got so much praise during the N64 days because of Goldeneye and the fact that they were like the only 3rd party actually making decent exclusive stuff for that console.

[MottZilla]

Hahahaha. Wow man. Now I know you suck at video games Warlock. I can run through Battletoads beginning to end without having to continue and often with fewer than 5 deaths up until the pillar/elevator level before the dark queen.

Seriously man, it is a challenging game requiring skill just like Super Battletoads (SNES) and luck is not required, just a bag full of skill.

RARE games I enjoyed include: Donkey Kong Country series, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Snake Rattle 'n Roll, Battletoads, and possibly more I can't recall right now.

Warlock, seriously man, Battletoads is not stupid. It is a game for the hardcore and the pros.

[Grasshopper]

I didn't mind some of their games, but most of their games had the same concept that they took way too far. Of coures, I"m referring to the N64 days. Lets make a platform collecting game in space, lets make a platform collecting game with monkeys, lets make a platform collecting game with bears and birds. Most Rare games produced after Banjo-Kazooie revolved around collecting all sorts of items. I enjoyed that game because it has some decent platforming levels, with just enough collectables to make you play through the levels again. Essentially, it was no different than Super Mario 64. I guess they thought the success of that was due to the sheer amount of collectability. But after that, I gagged at the thought of playing BK2, JFG, DK64, or SFA and collecting all that crap.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20020927h.gif

The only thing I don't like, or I guess I'm afraid of when it comes to VC is that popularity may drive the game list. If there is some obscure game for the SNES that I want to play just because I never played it (and yes, I do have one in mind); who's to say I will get that chance, if its not popular enough. Nintendo says we can "play our favorite NES, SNES, and N64 titles" on VC, but who's to tell me what my favorite games are. Certainly not Nintendo, but there will be games I like, that may never see the light of day on the VC, just because of popularity or lack of a huge company name slapped across the front.

[MottZilla]

I agree with you about the N64 and collecting shit. I didn't careabout Banjo or DK64. However I did like JFG! It was a neat shooter.

About driving the list, remember with this system they have basically unlimited shelf space, and at 10 games a week or whatever, there's plenty of room for the less popular games.

[Warlock]

Hahahaha. Wow man. Now I know you suck at video games Warlock. I can run through Battletoads beginning to end without having to continue and often with fewer than 5 deaths up until the pillar/elevator level before the dark queen.

Seriously man, it is a challenging game requiring skill just like Super Battletoads (SNES) and luck is not required, just a bag full of skill.

RARE games I enjoyed include: Donkey Kong Country series, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Snake Rattle 'n Roll, Battletoads, and possibly more I can't recall right now.

Warlock, seriously man, Battletoads is not stupid. It is a game for the hardcore and the pros.

Keep in mind this is like 17 years ago. And I stand by my dislike for the game. Besides, Battletoads were a complete ripoff of Ninja Turtles :P

Killer Instinct was ok, but just an average fighter. There are better out there.

And yes, the emphasis on collecting crap is exactly why I hated all those N64 games (and SFA)

[MottZilla]

Battletoads and Ninja Turtles were extremely different. Battletoads had a beat-em-up element but a very strong platforming and high speed element. Turtles was all slow paced beat-em-up. The original TMNT had a basic platforming element that wasn't that great. Battles > TMNT.

Killer Instinct had cutting edge graphics and sound and was a solid fighter. It was much more than an "average" fighter. The fact that you can say Killer Instinct and anyone gaming at the time knows what it is shows that it was much more than average. Also if you are basing your opinion off the SNES version again, that's your fault. The SNES game was a solid port but lacked the amazing graphics and sound of the original.

[Warlock]

Battletoads and Ninja Turtles were extremely different. Battletoads had a beat-em-up element but a very strong platforming and high speed element. Turtles was all slow paced beat-em-up. The original TMNT had a basic platforming element that wasn't that great. Battles > TMNT.

The franchise, not the games.


Killer Instinct had cutting edge graphics and sound and was a solid fighter. It was much more than an "average" fighter. The fact that you can say Killer Instinct and anyone gaming at the time knows what it is shows that it was much more than average. Also if you are basing your opinion off the SNES version again, that's your fault. The SNES game was a solid port but lacked the amazing graphics and sound of the original.

Actually I was thinking of the arcade version. I don't know, I just never saw anything special about it. It had 3d (ish, they were pre-rendered weren't they?) graphics which were sort of nifty, but not a whole lot otherwise.

[punkonjunk1024]

Again the best way to do this is a single emulator with settings for each game to run optimally, or actually different emulator builds specific to the game which would work too.
Wouldn't making a specific emulator build specific to every single game, which is implying to me, basically an emulator for a game, not a system... Beef up the shit out of the download size? Like... since it's not a pc emulator, but instead an emulator for a game system (so it has to work with the system's capabilities and differences)... I could see that being pretty large. Granted, I don't know that much about what I'm talking about.

On that note, couldn't nintendo also swell the game sizes to gigantic proportions, so you'd be forced to buy more stupid memory card things? *shrug*

[Warlock]

Wouldn't making a specific emulator build specific to every single game, which is implying to me, basically an emulator for a game, not a system... Beef up the shit out of the download size? Like... since it's not a pc emulator, but instead an emulator for a game system (so it has to work with the system's capabilities and differences)... I could see that being pretty large. Granted, I don't know that much about what I'm talking about.

On that note, couldn't nintendo also swell the game sizes to gigantic proportions, so you'd be forced to buy more stupid memory card things? *shrug*

I doubt it. It would probably be a tiny config file that sets up different settings in the emulator to run the game most effectively (or possibly even just a series of firmware updates to the emulator for different games).

Anyways, Xbox 360 already does this with playing normal Xbox games. And really the biggest N64 game isn't even that big.

[MottZilla]

First, Battletoads isn't a franchise, you can't compare it against TMNT as one.

Next, KI did feature prerendered (which actually means BETTER) backgrounds and also FMVs. These were all of amazing quality really, and you couldn't complain about prerendering either. It's easy to go, ew prerenders suck. That's because you think Resident Evil static backgrounds. In KI their prerendered backgrounds were more like lucid FMVs. Do you own the arcade game? I doubt it man. So chances are you didn't play the arcade version which again is 3464564754x better than the SNES.

POJ no, like Warlock said fine tuning/configuring per game or patches wouldn't beef up file size.

[Warlock]

First, Battletoads isn't a franchise, you can't compare it against TMNT as one.

Next, KI did feature prerendered (which actually means BETTER) backgrounds and also FMVs. These were all of amazing quality really, and you couldn't complain about prerendering either. It's easy to go, ew prerenders suck. That's because you think Resident Evil static backgrounds. In KI their prerendered backgrounds were more like lucid FMVs. Do you own the arcade game? I doubt it man. So chances are you didn't play the arcade version which again is 3464564754x better than the SNES.

POJ no, like Warlock said fine tuning/configuring per game or patches wouldn't beef up file size.

Two games is a franchise. But if you want to get technically with the wording... "The concept of Battletoads as mutant toads is a ripoff of TMNT"

And yes, I've played the arcade version. I don't care about the graphics - I didn't find anything particularly "hooking" about the game.

[punkonjunk1024]

you guys are arguing too much. People can have different preferences, tards. :P
KI was one of my favorite fighters ever, the only I liked until soul caliber and SSB.

I think mortal kombat is retarded. But thats just preference. *shrug*

[Glenn the Great]

Can any of you tell me if the VC will implement save states? I have a gut feeling that it won't, and that right there is enough to make me stick with emulators.

[Cloral]

I agree with Warlock that the name 'Battletoads' sounds like a rip-off of 'Ninja Turtles'. However, it was a really fun game, though perhaps a bit too hard. I was never able to get past the pipe level, which I think was level 9.

[Mak-X]

The emualtion of Ocarina of Time on the original release with Master Quest seemed fine, except for the slight music skipping between areas, and the pause on the main menu. It almost looks like it switches resolutions. The game had less slowdown than the N64 version too.

I never got through Majora's Mask on Gamecube though. The game froze on me when leaving a section of the mountain area. The frame rate suffered in croweded areas too like Clocktown. Must have been something related to the extra ram of the expansion pack not being emulated right.

Battletoads is kinda taken from TMNT, its got a team of frogs instead of turtles beating up bad guys. I think I liked the original Battletoads, but it was frustratingly hard. I enjoyed Battletoads & Double Dragon (NES) a little more because it was easier until a certain part in the game.

Either last year or the year before at a game convention, there were 2 players playing Battletoads on large TV trying to get past that first lava speed stage with a crowd watching. If one player messed up they'd both have to restart. :)

[Matteo]

Can any of you tell me if the VC will implement save states? I have a gut feeling that it won't, and that right there is enough to make me stick with emulators.

I highly doubt it. Save states and Action Replay cheats are one of the biproducts of computer emulators that just won't make their way onto the VC. As much as I would love them though... :(

You bring up a good point. Its something I hadn't thought of and it definitely makes playing old games on an emulator that much more enjoyable for me.

[erm2003]

Save states would be interesting but I guess when I pictured the VC I pictured the more pure form of the games. I didn't expect to have save states. Even though emulators may be better for that, it will still be much easier (and legal) to download titles off the VC and play them the way they were intended.

[MottZilla]

Two games is a franchise. But if you want to get technically with the wording... "The concept of Battletoads as mutant toads is a ripoff of TMNT"


Battletoads is not like TMNT because they are NOT mutant toads. They weren't regular toads exposed to some substance or anything. Battletoads is based in some strange world with lots of strange characters, not reality at all. It's more comical than TMNT as well. Battletoads is not a ripoff. I mean it seems to me if you wanna argue the point that way, TMNT is totally a rip off of Frogger. Frogger had toads and turtles and they were the color green!

Both TMNT and Battletoads are solid game series. I don't see why you hate the Battletoads so much. I still think it's just because you didn't like its difficulty.

About KI, last I remember you weren't really big on fighting games to begin with anyway.

[Warlock]

Battletoads is not like TMNT because they are NOT mutant toads. They weren't regular toads exposed to some substance or anything. Battletoads is based in some strange world with lots of strange characters, not reality at all. It's more comical than TMNT as well. Battletoads is not a ripoff. I mean it seems to me if you wanna argue the point that way, TMNT is totally a rip off of Frogger. Frogger had toads and turtles and they were the color green!

Both TMNT and Battletoads are solid game series. I don't see why you hate the Battletoads so much. I still think it's just because you didn't like its difficulty.

About KI, last I remember you weren't really big on fighting games to begin with anyway.

TMNT is about walking, talking turtles who fight people.
Battletoads is about walking, talking toads who fight people.

Add the fact they are both amphibians, and that Battletoads was created exactly around the time TMNT was at its most popular. Just because the backstory of the characters are different does not mean they weren't clearly a ripoff made to capitalize on TMNT's success.

Also, that's not really the story anyways (not that I trust the accuracy of Nintendo Power comics):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battletoads

And in the section about the animated series (which I actually never heard about until now):

It is likely that the show was an attempt to capitalize on the popularity of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Incidentally, DiC would try this again with Street Sharks the next year.

[MANDRAG GANON]

Can any of you tell me if the VC will implement save states? I have a gut feeling that it won't, and that right there is enough to make me stick with emulators.

Why would you want save states that ruins the game, that makes it WAY to easy.
Keep saving states and chug through a level each time you get to hard part save state, then save immediately afterwards, that ruins alot of skill involved in playing the game......

Well heres a good Example, Warlock would be able to beat Battletoads if we had savestates undoubtedly. So could I for that matter (I also always got stuck at those damned bikes) Thats great and all but that ruins the game. Wheres the fun if everything is beatable on almost every try.

[Warlock]

Why would you want save states that ruins the game, that makes it WAY to easy.
Keep saving states and chug through a level each time you get to hard part save state, then save immediately afterwards, that ruins alot of skill involved in playing the game......

Well heres a good Example, Warlock would be able to beat Battletoads if we had savestates undoubtedly. So could I for that matter (I also always got stuck at those damned bikes) Thats great and all but that ruins the game. Wheres the fun if everything is beatable on almost every try.

I think I could beat it.. *now*.. back then though the difficulty was so uneven. That wiki page describes it well - it jacks up a crazy amount right at lvl 3. I also remember really hating the snake level.

[Matteo]

They announced a few more games that will be coming to the VC before the year is out:

http://wii.ign.com/articles/744/744650p1.html

I am guessing you can use the wiimote for Wild Gunman and Duck Hunt?

What we really need though is Kirby's Dream Course...

[Breaker]

Kirby's Dream Course would be awesome.

[Glenn the Great]

Why would you want save states that ruins the game, that makes it WAY to easy.

I don't just use save states to make the game easier. I also use them to save right before my favorite moments in a game if there is not a save point nearby. Using several save states, I can instantly jump to parts that I want to replay without wading through other stuff.

[Matteo]

Kirby's Dream Course would be awesome.

Yeah its one of my favorite lesser known games. I wish they would make another one. The concept is just amazing.

[Warlock]

They announced a few more games that will be coming to the VC before the year is out:

http://wii.ign.com/articles/744/744650p1.html

I am guessing you can use the wiimote for Wild Gunman and Duck Hunt?

What we really need though is Kirby's Dream Course...

And Hogan's Alley! I was really happy to see that because it confirms that Nintendo is mapping the Wiimote to work as the NES Zapper (and likely the Super Scope too I'm sure - I've honestly never had the chance to play Yoshi's Safari)

[AtmaWeapon]

Let's think about adding netplay to a game for a while, all of you competent game programmers who are suggesting it's no problem to add it.

There's 2 ways I can see the VC being implemented: built-in emulator or do-it-yourself code. If DIY code is used, the company could opt to do a port or simply code an emulator and run the original code through that.

Built-in Emulation
This could be the toughest scenario for a developer to work with. In this scenario, the Wii loads a hardware emulator and then loads the game image and there you go. The problem with this is the developer can only work with what Nintendo gives them and has no freedom to add netplay to the game unless Nintendo provides it as part of their package.

DIY Emulation
This method forces the developer to create their own emulator and run the game image through the emulator. If the developer can make the emulator support netplay, the game may be able to have netplay implemented. I'm assuming what the X-Band modem did was transmit controller input over the modem, which was then sent to the cartridge, so the ROM didn't know it wasn't fooling with 2 controllers hooked to the same system. There's some synchronization of game issues I can see happening there but nothing is stopping the developer from letting the emulator handle that.

A nice bonus here is once the developer makes a solid emulator, they can use it for more than one ROM so the effort is only needed once.

Full Port
This gives the developer full freedom but requires the most effort. In this case the developer completely redoes the game and adds netplay as part of it. I honestly don't think many companies would go to this much effort unless they expected very high-volume sales out of it.

However, when you take all these things into account, not all games would be netplay friendly and people would still complain about the results. Split-screen games (such as Goldeneye) would still play split-screen, since all you are doing is sending controller input signals to the ROM. Reworking these games to support full-screen multiplay would involve some creativity to implement at the very least. Even worse, modern online multiply benefits from over a decade of refinement. Lag is almost always a problem, and most modern games account for lag in some way or another. These older games would either have to assume no lag exists or have code added to compensate for it, which increases development effort and decreases the profitability of the venture.

Writing games isn't easy; there's a reason why lately it takes years to develop a game. As the industry pushes itself to set the bar for production value higher and higher, it is also increasing the overhead for producing a game. I really don't think many companies are going to divert attention from their multi-million-dollar projects so they can make a quick $1-2 million off of making an online Goldeneye. I know it sounds tempting to you guys, but you have no idea how big a development project gets and I think most game developers are pretty much fully occupied as it is.

*edit* Oh and yeah Battletoads was definitely a rip-off of TMNT but I think the phrase "rip-off" isn't exactly appropriate because it has a bad connotation. Allow me to illustrate.

Voltron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltron) was an anime series about a giant shape-changing robot piloted by people. The same company procduced Mighty Morphin Power Rangers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_Morphin_Power_Rangers), a show about people piloting giant shape-changing robots. Both shows were successful, so MMPR is more like a derivative work of Voltron than a rip-off.

Tattooed Teenage Alien Fighters from Beverly Hills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattooed_Teenage_Alien_Fighters_from_Beverly_Hills ) was a show about some people who controled giant beings that could transform into another being. This show was low-budget and not very popular. It is a rip-off.

So basically Battletoads isn't really a rip-off because they did a good job, IMO.

[Warlock]

Yes, derivative is probably a better term :P

And I would think any online play would have to be a full port. Just running emulated games over a network - although it would work - would be too sucky to be worth it (except maybe in some cases, like multiplayer Super Mario Bros - but then, why the hell would you care about playing that online? :P)

[Warlock]

Oh my god!
http://wii.ign.com/articles/744/744751p1.html

Some games bolded for awesomeness (OoT doesn't count b/c it was re-released twice in the last couple years)

Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
Kirby's Super Star (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
Mario Kart 64 (Nintendo 64; rated E for Everyone)
Starfox 64 (Nintendo 64; rated E for Everyone)
Super Metroid (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
Kirby's Dream Land 3 (Super NES; rated E for Everyone)
The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time (Nintendo 64; rated E for Everyone)
Excitebike (NES; rated E for Everyone)
Ice Climber (NES; rated E for Everyone)
Dr. Mario (NES; rated E for Everyone)
Mario Brothers (NES; rated E for Everyone)
Ice Hockey (NES; rated E for Everyone)
Soccer (NES; rated E for Everyone)w00t!!! Not quite sure why the already announced ones are bothered to be listed at the end there, but whatever. Awesome games comin! And I am so stoked for Mario RPG - I wonder if that means Square is onboard for the VC...

[Tygore]

I think that Square had previously expressed positive feelings about VC, so SMRPG isn't too surprising. Not that it's not a great addition. I'm more excited about Kirby's Dream Land 3, as I never did get to play through that one (already own the ones you bolded).

[Warlock]

I think that Square had previously expressed positive feelings about VC, so SMRPG isn't too surprising. Not that it's not a great addition. I'm more excited about Kirby's Dream Land 3, as I never did get to play through that one (already own the ones you bolded).

Kirby's Dreamland 3 sucked.. it was probably the worst Kirby game ever made (having not played Kirby 64 tho, so I dunno about that)

[Cloral]

KDL3 was nice. I liked playing the boss butch for a decent challenge.

[Orion]

I loved KDL3... I very much look forward to being able to play that again. But of all of those, I'd have to say Mario Kart 64 and Duck Hunt are at the top of my list.

[AtmaWeapon]

Mario Kart 64 was pretty much the best Mario Kart ever IMO. The DS one was great but nothing can match the amount of fun I had on the N64.

[Kingboo30]

....Great. Just great, I guess I need to save $400 in the next 2 weeks. Go figure with only $160 on your hands...

[Matteo]

Yeah, 8 player online Mario Kart 64, would if it existed, probably be the be all end all multiplayer experience for me.

Even though I now more fully understand how difficult it is to get these games online, I still think that the thing that will separate the VC between the realm of nostalgic and the realm of legendary will be the online play.

[vegeta1215]

Kirby's Dream Course would be awesome.

Yeah, that was a great game. I only rented it, but I remember having a lot of fun with it.



Mario Kart 64 was pretty much the best Mario Kart ever IMO. The DS one was great but nothing can match the amount of fun I had on the N64.

I tried playing Mario Kart 64 after playing Mario Kart: DS, and I just can't. The controls in Mario Kart: DS are so refined that playing any previous Mario Kart, even Double Dash, just feels like a huge step backwards. Not to mention the camera in MK64 is terrible imo. Still, there are some great tracks in MK64.

[punkonjunk1024]

Kirby's Dreamland 3 sucked.. it was probably the worst Kirby game ever made (having not played Kirby 64 tho, so I dunno about that)


AHHHH

What the hell is wrong with you?
IT"S BEAUTIFUL, and, although it's grossly easy, jesus... it's soooo pretty! It was a fun game, even though it was quick. I loved it.

[Warlock]

AHHHH

What the hell is wrong with you?
IT"S BEAUTIFUL, and, although it's grossly easy, jesus... it's soooo pretty! It was a fun game, even though it was quick. I loved it.

I hated it. And I found a lot of what you had to do to complete some levels completely ambiguous. Most of the animals were pointless too. And the graphics sucked compared to almost any other Kirby game (all pastels and washed-out looking)

[Orion]

I hated it. And I found a lot of what you had to do to complete some levels completely ambiguous. Most of the animals were pointless too. And the graphics sucked compared to almost any other Kirby game (all pastels and washed-out looking)

I thought the graphics were fantastic! And I'm not saying that just to be disagreeable... I loved the hand-drawn style they went with. It was a lot like (though albeit not as cool) as Yoshis Island.

[MottZilla]

I thought the graphics were fantastic! And I'm not saying that just to be disagreeable... I loved the hand-drawn style they went with. It was a lot like (though albeit not as cool) as Yoshis Island.

Me too, it was a fresh look for the SNES and I thought they pulled it off well. Plus it utilized the SA-1 chip to get around the SNES's slow cpu problem. So does Kirby Super Star, which is good news then as Nintendo apparently isn't so helpless to not be able to emulate those in-cart chips.

By the way Warlock, Battletoads still isn't that difficult. You just sucked when you played it. ;p Give it another go when you are ontop of your gaming. It's an excellent game with lots of different levels and it is a challenge but not impossible. I certainly agreed with the Wiki that it wasn't forgiving but I strongly disagree that the general gamers back then were divided over it. Back then "casual gamers" didn't exist. Everyone was a fan or hardcore gamer really. The difference was if you sucked, you didn't like it. If you liked it, you actually used it to bring up your gaming skill.

Yesterday I was playing Gears of War, and many parts seemed similarly unforgiving, but as you play on again and again you get better.

A few points, it's possible to emulate a game like StarFox64 over the internet. "Lag" being expected is irrelevant because when emulating online you are communicating inputs and thus actually emulating the exact same thing so your games are in sync. The split screen in emulation could also be hooked on a per game basis so you only see your piece of the screen and not anyone elses. It's all possible, and could probably be done by 1 or 2 guys that know what they are doing and wouldn't cost much.

[Dart Zaidyer]

Wait. They're gonna do Kirby Super Star, too?

Man, that game is awesome. It kicks Dreamland 3 to the curb.
The "how to play" tutorial should be even funnier now on the Wii, because it shows the SNES controller and refers to it as "that gray thing with the purple buttons".

[Warlock]

The graphics looked too washed-out. A comparison:

Kirby's Dreamland 3:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/i/20/46/199646.jpeg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/i/44/20/199670.jpeg

Kirby Super Star:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/i/32/07/199707.jpeg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/i/36/11/199711.jpeg

I just picked Super Star since it's also a SNES Kirby, but I could easily have picked any 16-bit version (any of the GBA versions for example). But look at how much more vibrant and colorful Super Star (or any other Kirby game) is.

But honestly, graphics wouldn't have kept me from enjoying the game if it was good. I just plain didn't like it.

As for Battletoads - as far as I'm concerned there is something that's normal difficulty (i.e. - the game is challenging) and then there is unforgiving difficulty (i.e. - you zigged when you should have zagged). The latter in my opinion is just poor design. And that's what Battletoads was. I doubt I would change my mind about the game by playing it again.

[AtmaWeapon]

A few points, it's possible to emulate a game like StarFox64 over the internet. "Lag" being expected is irrelevant because when emulating online you are communicating inputs and thus actually emulating the exact same thing so your games are in sync. The split screen in emulation could also be hooked on a per game basis so you only see your piece of the screen and not anyone elses. It's all possible, and could probably be done by 1 or 2 guys that know what they are doing and wouldn't cost much.The synchronization of the individual clients would be much more complicated than that. I'm going to ignore ping time or lag as a factor and go for the less obvious problem.

Suppose you have this emulated input scheme and you're happily playing against some friends online. Everyone's game is in sync and entities are at the appropriate position. You hold the analog stick left for 5 seconds, but some network problem eliminates a full second's worth of your input from being transmitted across the network. Now, your copy of the game saw 5 seconds worth of turn while everyone else's saw 4 seconds worth of turn. This places your ship in two different positions. Over time, these deviations result in everyone's position on each instance of the game being completely inaccurate compared to what the player witnesses.

Games with a server/client architecture handle this by letting the server provide position data and periodically synchronizing the two. Implementing this kind of structure for Wii VC could probably be done by having the server responsible for running the game image and forcing Wii clients to yield to its data, but I'd think such an implementation would be significant enough Nintendo would have made an announcement (not to mention it would require a large amount of resources on Nintendo's side).

Since the games in question weren't designed to take advantage of a client/server architecture, it seems at first glance online play would be buggy at best. However, the SNES modem (X-BAND?) and the fact that emulators support online play would indicate that it is not impossible. The emulator or modem would be capable of transmitting ROM state information to all connected games, and with a little bit of programming could single out the information from each client unique to that player and force each client to respect the correct information. Occasionally you'd see "warping" as a player position is updated, but this is a problem exhibited in most online games and the current solutions tend to attempt to predict player behavior when no input is received which results in pretty much the same problem in the end.

A third alternative may be to wait until all participants report their input status, then update every game with that information, but this would probably introduce lag to a degree that would be unacceptable.

If Nintendo has put the emulator in the BIOS, the ability to play classic games online depends completely on their implementation of the Virtual Console. Any implementations of client/server or synchronization support would have to be coded in for it to work. If Nintendo is allowing developers to provide their own software, the ability to play classic games online depends solely on whether the VC software runs in a sandbox with limited access to system resources or is treated as a full-fledged Wii application.

tl;dr: it is impossible to tell how well netplay of classic games can be supported given the current information.

[Cloral]

Those screenshots just prove the point that KDL3 loos better than KSS. KSS's graphics aren't bad, but they look a lot more generic.

[Warlock]

Those screenshots just prove the point that KDL3 loos better than KSS. KSS's graphics aren't bad, but they look a lot more generic.

???

[Cloral]

???

KDL3 = Kirby's Dream Land 3
KSS = Kirby Super Star

[Warlock]

KDL3 = Kirby's Dream Land 3
KSS = Kirby Super Star

That was the only part of your post that made sense ;P

[MottZilla]

Atma, I'm aware of lag issues, and games like Street Fighter 2 on XBL use a delayed input sync. However some emulators like ZSNES, use prediction and then will correct it should it lose packets or something. Both methods are alright depending on the game as long as your connection doesn't suck.

I do agree though I'm not getting my hopes up that they will add netplay.

[Dechipher]

Those screenshots just prove the point that KDL3 loos better than KSS. KSS's graphics aren't bad, but they look a lot more generic.

I actually agree with Warlock about the graphics. They are a bit washed up. KSS's graphics were easier to like.

Kriby is kirby though. I've never played KDL3.

[Grasshopper]

You guys are arguing over the graphics of Kirby games?! Heh
Its two different graphical styles. You either like or you don't. :thumbsup:

[AtmaWeapon]

Atma, I'm aware of lag issues, and games like Street Fighter 2 on XBL use a delayed input sync. However some emulators like ZSNES, use prediction and then will correct it should it lose packets or something. Both methods are alright depending on the game as long as your connection doesn't suck.

I do agree though I'm not getting my hopes up that they will add netplay.Yeah but my point is really in both of those situations the developer had full control of the software and was able to incorporate measures to account for netplay complications. Whether this can be done on the Wii depends on how much freedom a VC developer has with the system.

[Warlock]

Yeah but my point is really in both of those situations the developer had full control of the software and was able to incorporate measures to account for netplay complications. Whether this can be done on the Wii depends on how much freedom a VC developer has with the system.

Speaking strictly of VC-only games, I'm pretty sure IGN has asked and yes, those can have online play. That's Wii hardware afterall.

I do wonder if games originally designed for the SNES modem (which I forgot existed) would work well with netplay tho. That would be interesting, even though there aren't that many ;) (but wasn't Super Bomberman designed for it? Or was it *only* multitap - which I do know it was designed for)

[Orion]

http://www.planetgamecube.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=12380

Hopefully this will put those online thoughts to rest.

[Dechipher]

And the cash cow just died.

[Matteo]

http://www.planetgamecube.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=12380

Hopefully this will put those online thoughts to rest.

thanks for stabbing me in the heart!

and p.s. Nintendo: You once again are shooting yourself in the foot...

[Breaker]

we're probably better off sticking to ROMS then until they get a clue.

[Nicholas Steel]

you cant view virtual console games by system type. -.-' kina bad thing not to have especially if you have every game for each system....

[Dart Zaidyer]

Consider the following, however: Most of the classic hardware for these old games is essentially in various states of decay or ruin, especially after 15-20 years.
I don't know about the rest of you guys, but a lack of online play is not enough to scare me off the idea of the Virtual Console. To me, this represents a much needed opportunity to retire some of my favorite cartridges and acquire some games I've never been able to play or own before. The "used" market has commanded far too high a price for classics like Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, and so on and so forth. The Virtual Console levels the playing field, and even gives us a chance to replace that old mushy controller, or dusty NES, or Zapper, or maybe even that battery hog, the Super Scope.

[punkonjunk1024]

Those screenshots just prove the point that KDL3 loos better than KSS. KSS's graphics aren't bad, but they look a lot more generic.

KDL3 was pretty gorgeous, but no where near as fun as KSS. Superstar was just awesome, no question about it. They should port it to GBA. :(

[MottZilla]

we're probably better off sticking to ROMS then until they get a clue.

The sad thing is it would have been so easy for Nintendo to create something awesome by truely embracing emulation. The Wii is certainly capable of emulating near all of the classic systems wonderfully. But instead they seem to be half-assing this thing. Considering how homemade/freeware emulators for PC populate the Windows PC platform with great performance and netplay features, it can't be hard for them to pay some talented coders to bring it to the Wii.

[AtmaWeapon]

The sad thing is it would have been so easy for Nintendo to create something awesome by truely embracing emulation. The Wii is certainly capable of emulating near all of the classic systems wonderfully. But instead they seem to be half-assing this thing. Considering how homemade/freeware emulators for PC populate the Windows PC platform with great performance and netplay features, it can't be hard for them to pay some talented coders to bring it to the Wii.I'm pretty sure that no matter how many people are upset that they can't play games that never had online play online, they will be offset by the people that remember never using 2 player mode anyway because people didn't play video games in the 1980s and 1990s with their friends.

You played them due to lack of friends :/

[Daarkseid]

You played them due to lack of friends :/

Videogames were always more fun, anyway.

[MottZilla]

I'm pretty sure that no matter how many people are upset that they can't play games that never had online play online, they will be offset by the people that remember never using 2 player mode anyway because people didn't play video games in the 1980s and 1990s with their friends.

You played them due to lack of friends :/

In the 1980s, 1990s, and even into 2000 I was always console gaming multiplayer with friends. Contra, Contra 3, Mario Kart, Double Dragon, Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, and the list goes on and on and on. Some of us actually did use 2 player mode.

[Matteo]

In the 1980s, 1990s, and even into 2000 I was always console gaming multiplayer with friends. Contra, Contra 3, Mario Kart, Double Dragon, Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, and the list goes on and on and on. Some of us actually did use 2 player mode.

Agreed.

When I was younger, it easier for me to find people to play console games with. There was always someone who was willing to play whatever the game of the day was. Later on in life, It was easy to find gamers living in college in a dorm, as there was always people who wanted to hang out and game. Also after college, living in a house with guys, playing was easy to come by. But now I am married and live with my wife and barely have enough time to see my friends, let alone play video games with them. That is why online gaming is so appealing to me. Its a shame because a big part of Nintendo's nostalgic market is guys like me who grew up with the NES and SNES and who can't often get other people to get together to game with. I am the kind of guy who despite owning almost all the VC games already on the original systems, will still want to download/purchase them for the sake of simplicity.

It is such a disappointment that Nintendo is ignoring the online features. The amount of added hype the VC would get if it included online play? Alot more, thats for sure. Heck, the xbox360 just released an arcade port of Contra thats playable on Xbox live. The game is horrible, and people aren't pleased. If Nintendo would get off their ass and release an online capable port of the NES version, gamers would choose it over a crappy arcade version for XBLA, because all I hear on the xbox360 message boards is how people wished it was the NES version. I have tried it and it is indeed pure crap.

People crave the NES and SNES games. And they also crave being able to play them multiplayer. Alot of these players are older and don't have the kind of lives that make it easy for them to game with friends. They all want online multiplayer to replace this. Give it to us Nintendo!

[Nicholas Steel]

Mottzilla remember that most freeware emulators are GPL'd which means they cant be sold for $$$ in part or whole thus Nintendo cant use them for the wii.

i think thats right -.-

[Warlock]

Mottzilla remember that most freeware emulators are GPL'd which means they cant be sold for $$$ in part or whole thus Nintendo cant use them for the wii.

i think thats right -.-

Why on earth would Nintendo use a random user-made emulator? They can make their own -_-

And anyways, you're talking about an application that is *technically* dealing with illegal stuff to begin with, so GPL is not really a concern.

[vegeta1215]

Mottzilla remember that most freeware emulators are GPL'd which means they cant be sold for $$$ in part or whole thus Nintendo cant use them for the wii.

i think thats right -.-

Actually it's not. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

[MottZilla]

People crave the NES and SNES games. And they also crave being able to play them multiplayer. Alot of these players are older and don't have the kind of lives that make it easy for them to game with friends. They all want online multiplayer to replace this. Give it to us Nintendo!

Exactly. It's obviously not a big issue when you are younger and constantly in contact with friends. But when you get older, online play is a must-have. And playing games like NES Contra online is just awesome.