Bush Vetos Stem Cell Research Bill

[Beldaran]

No federal funding says Bush, even though the House, the Senate, and the majority of Americans want it.

http://www.observationdeck.org/lip_images/stemcell.jpg

[Monica]

What exactly does Stem Cell research do? Is that killing unborn babies and taking their cells or something like that? If so, that's probably why Bush doesn't like it...

[ONeilcool]

This is what I understand:

a stem cell is a cell a fetus (or a baby in first trimester or something like that) has. A stem cell not chosen which type of cell its going to be. Ie skin cell, brain cell, etc etc.

Many disabilities have to do with missing cells and what not. What they are trying to do is use stem cells to replace the missing cells in the given disability. Once a stem cell in put in a enviorment with other cells it adapts and become the kind of cell needed.

The problem is you have to kill these "babys" to get the stem cells, and the question is if these "babys" are legitimate humans and if its against human morality or not.

[Rainman]

IIRC, stem cells are taken very early on during the embryo stage when they baby is just a ball of cells. Since they are the cells which eventually turn into various specialized ones, reseach is being put into how they can be used to replace/regenerate cells in adults. Conditions with nerve damage (paralysis, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's) are prime target for this research.

[MottZilla]

Nah Rainman, its BEFORE it's a baby. Long before. The problem is retards like Bush pushing their moral retardation on us holding back science. There is nothing morally wrong about getting stem cells from embryos. Anyone that thinks it's a baby or a human life is some kind of ubber pussy. Also it's really funny to give a damn about some tiny little embryo while at the same time doing so many other clearly wrong things. They are not saints or moral people.

Really, someone should shoot him over this, and leave him paralyzed. See what tune he's singing then.

[Rainman]

Yeah, fetus. Whatever. :P

[MottZilla]

Ya well there's a difference man. Not to mention the whole retarded thing that people think babies are somehow more important than living people. I mean really, lets say you have one of the smartest most valuable members of society dieing from some disease, you can't let some embryo go so that person could be saved and go on to benifit society. You'd rather the thing just sit in a freezer or maybe become someone's baby. Cause you know how hard it is to make a baby... I mean it's so damn difficult to end up with a baby...

Reminds me of some hospital around here where the baby is more important than the mother in their minds. Some religious whackjobs. They'd rather save the baby than the mother, the one that actually would be missed from society. A baby is nothing. They are a dime a dozen. Until it has actually be alive to some extent it's really not anything more than a meat bag. I mean come on, you can say oh my baby is so special and great. Uh, no... it isn't.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I hate people that hold back technology/science.

[Monica]

Ohh, I guess I must be one of those then, Mott...^^ As a handicapped person, I don't think we are meant to mess with God's plan and change how we are meant to be born. If we are, I don't think killing babies is the way to do it. Killing normal babies to fix handicapped people just doesn't sound right to me at all. (I can't help it, I love babies and I think children and babies are very special to God, and it may be too simplistic a view for some, but I believe pregnant = baby, no ifs, ands, or buts, and I say that as a woman) ^_^

The only way I think would be okay to abort would be if the mother was going to die.

[erm2003]

The House didn't want it bad enough. They couldn't pass an override vote.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/ap_on_go_pr_wh/stem_cells_58

[Daarkseid]

Ohh, I guess I must be one of those then, Mott...^^ As a handicapped person, I don't think we are meant to mess with God's plan and change how we are meant to be born. If we are, I don't think killing babies is the way to do it. Killing normal babies to fix handicapped people just doesn't sound right to me at all. (I can't help it, I love babies and I think children and babies are very special to God, and it may be too simplistic a view for some, but I believe pregnant = baby, no ifs, ands, or buts, and I say that as a woman) ^_^


It's not just the handicapped who are helped by stem-cell research. New technologies, many of which could wipe out problems suffered by otherwise very healthy individuals, could result from stem-cell research.

Like for instance, organ transplants would not only be plentiful(not relying on limit quantities received from donors), but combined with theraputic cloning, these lab grown organs would be of the same DNA as the person receiving the transplant. This means people receiving the new organ do not have to worry about rejection, or having to live their lives with compromised immune systems(medication weakening the immune response of foreign tissue is required today for transplanted organs not to fail in new bodies).

Of course, this flies in the face with judeo-christian thinking, which regards people beyond a few years of age to be infallibly wicked and therefore worth less than unborn children who have yet to come into this horrid world and be corrupted by society, which is at this point beyond saving, so we all must conform to narrow minded ideas of living so that upon death, we'll be allowed to enter this wonderful place we've been told is waiting so long as we cling to ideas which at times are both bizarre and illogical.

I'd also like to venture the personal theory of mine that states abortion is probably the most humane form of unnatural death upon a human being, because it occurs at an early point in the development stage, before consciousness sets in, and probably well before any significant pain can be felt. Also, an unborn fetus doesn't see it coming. Whereas I and my family can hope, with current technology, to see me die in a painful, but hopefully not too slow, death.

We will sacrifice those for whom pain and living isn't something that can be appreciated, so that those of us currently living in hell can be saved.

[Rainman]

I don't think we are meant to mess with God's plan and change how we are meant to be born.
This is, no offense, one of the things I don't like about religious thought. The belief in an overriding plan and purpose to things makes people accept things for the way they are or assume they deserve bad things because they are bad. As an atheist, I believe this life is all we've got so I intend to make the best out of things while I'm here.

[Monica]

Yeah I understand what you guys are saying, I just...I dunno... 2 people I know are currently pregnant and it's not like "Oh she's got a bunch of cells in her stomach" it's like "She's got a baby in there that's forming and will come out soon". I just can't count them as anything less, it's just not in me. Like if one of them dies via a miscarriage, that would be sad, just like hearing about someone dying. And I believe the Age of Accountability is between 11 and 13.

I know I'd miss out on a heck of a lot of blessings, like 12 years of Rainbow Camp or my friends at Physical Therapy if I wasn't born as I was. One of them's wife had a baby last year and my mom sewed a baby blanket for me to give them as a present. I just believe how we are born is part of God's plan, but I know you can't really understand as an atheist...^^

[goKi]

Banning stem cell research is fucking stupid.

STEM CELL RESEARCH DOES NOT KILL BABIES...

allow me to repeat that...

STEM CELL RESEARCH DOES NOT KILL BABIES

ahem.
It simply gives use to either, unwanted, or sadly, miscarried babies. Monica, it could potentially save the life of one of your two pregnant friends, or their currently unborn children.. No offense to anyone here, but anyone who opposes harmless progress in the human race (harmless, because quite simply, researching it does not kill babies, it puts terminated pregnancies to good use, imo) is delusional. Cure for caner, nah, who needs that.

Bush needs to be thrown out of government.

[Dechipher]

Stop eating eggs it's killing ducks.

[Masamune]

If we are, I don't think killing babies is the way to do it. Killing normal babies to fix handicapped people just doesn't sound right to me at all.

Stop calling them babies. Calling them babies is just the new token approach to making people feel bad. They're not babies, they're not human. They're a small collection of blank cells with no personality, or soul. No more than an egg yoke.

[Monica]

Well, nobody said anything about using miscarried babies, if you can use the cells of miscarried babies after they are miscarried and dead, that'd be okay... As for "unwanted" babies, well, you know what not to do if you don't want a baby. ^_^ And that's the choice the parents made, unless it was an attack in which case if the girl is so traumatised then that might be the only other exception...

Decipher, dunno if that was directed at me, but I hate eggs, they make me gag, lol.

Masa: I just can't help it. ^_^

[goKi]

As for "unwanted" babies, well, you know what not to do if you don't want a baby.

I remember seeing this 'Pro life' advert on TV at like, 2am.

There was a young girl driving through a forest in a car, i believe.

The voiceover said that a young woman has many choices to make in their life, many important choices, and that the choice she makes is hers alone to make.

'But if you face an unwanted pregnancy, there are other choices to abortion'

In other words, it's you're choice, but abortion is murdering babies, do you want to murder babies? Pro life is religious propaganda. I agree with what Rainman said above, being atheist, i couldn't imagine accepting some baseless 'rule'. I think it's more cruel to let the baby endure a terrible childhood, and turn out to be just like the worthless parents that created him/her during their drunken escapades.

Monica edit: Ack, another accident, edit instead of quote :(

[Monica]

I remember seeing this 'Pro life' advert on TV at like, 2am.

There was a young girl driving through a forest in a car, i believe.

The voiceover said that a young woman has many choices to make in their life, many important choices, and that the choice she makes is hers alone to make.

'But if you face an unwanted pregnancy, there are other choices to abortion'

In other words, it's you're choice, but abortion is murdering babies, do you want to murder babies? Pro life is religious propaganda. I agree with what Rainman said above, being atheist, i couldn't imagine accepting some baseless 'rule'. I think it's more cruel to let the baby endure a terrible childhood, and turn out to be just like the worthless parents that created him/her during their drunken escapades.


All the sins cause problems all together and start a chain reaction, and just ruin lives. The couple you referred to were probably not married. They were blessed with a child but because they were only thinking about themselves, what could have been a happy family is probably miserable.

I know you can't stop these things from happining because people are sinners by nature, but you can understand why they are sins, because they cause harm and interfere with love. And...eh, I forgot where my point was going, but it's still because of their actions that they forced their child to be born in a terrible place, and they probably don't care...:(

[Lilith]

As for "unwanted" babies, well, you know what not to do if you don't want a baby. ^_^

Unless you're raped, too young to understand the consequences of sex, had your primary method of birth control fail (as in 50% of cases), couldn't get access to birth control, or you're stuck with a pregnancy you can't physically, financially or mentally take care of. And this doesn't depend on something like marriage or chastity. The "lol don't spread your legs then" stance is pretty offensive imo. Just sayin'

[erm2003]

There are way too many issues to this debate to begin with. My biggest problem is that people confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion. I believe that abortion should be legal because there are circumstances when it could be used to save the mother's life or in rape cases. However, I don't believe it should be used as a contraception. That makes me pro-choice, even though I don't support it in most cases. It's quite confusing.

[phattonez]

Stem cells do not have to come from fetuses, but it is the best place to get them from, so most of the stem cells right now are from fetuses. Stem cell research will go on, just without funding. Besides, pharmaceutical companies can pay for it themselves.

[Masamune]

There are way too many issues to this debate to begin with. My biggest problem is that people confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion. I believe that abortion should be legal because there are circumstances when it could be used to save the mother's life or in rape cases. However, I don't believe it should be used as a contraception. That makes me pro-choice, even though I don't support it in most cases. It's quite confusing.
I love abortions. I get a massive erection every time one is performed within 500 miles of me.

[Rainman]

Stem cells do not have to come from fetuses, but it is the best place to get them from, so most of the stem cells right now are from fetuses. Stem cell research will go on, just without funding. Besides, pharmaceutical companies can pay for it themselves.
This is true and I like private research, but I heard this legislation would bar any institution that receives public funding at all from doing the research.

[Daarkseid]

Meanwhile, China, with a mountain of funds from a trade imbalance with the US(in their favor) and absolutely no moral hangups about working with stem-cells(they have a copious amount of aborted fetus' because of their population controls), the Chinese could very well exceed the rest of the world in bio-technology, resulting in(worst case scenario) an era of Sino-Global domination that validates non-representative government to the rest of the world.

[Dechipher]

I love abortions. I get a massive erection every time one is performed within 500 miles of me.


See, honestly, shit like that kinda pisses me off. Just because abortion may at times be neccesary and isn't the extreme disgrace many people make it out to be doesn't mean that it's all happy-fun-time-lets-joke-about-this-shit. It IS a very serious subject and is a very personal one to a lot of people.

[Lilith]

See, honestly, shit like that kinda pisses me off. Just because abortion may at times be neccesary and isn't the extreme disgrace many people make it out to be doesn't mean that it's all happy-fun-time-lets-joke-about-this-shit. It IS a very serious subject and is a very personal one to a lot of people.

lol owned

[Dechipher]

lol owned
You could have at least given me rep.
Christ.

[Masamune]

See, honestly, shit like that kinda pisses me off. Just because abortion may at times be neccesary and isn't the extreme disgrace many people make it out to be doesn't mean that it's all happy-fun-time-lets-joke-about-this-shit. It IS a very serious subject and is a very personal one to a lot of people.
Exactly.

[jessethe2nd]

This gives me an idea for a flash animation on Bush...

[phattonez]

This gives me an idea for a flash animation on Bush...

Yeah, there aren't enough of those on the internet.

[MottZilla]

This is, no offense, one of the things I don't like about religious thought. The belief in an overriding plan and purpose to things makes people accept things for the way they are or assume they deserve bad things because they are bad. As an atheist, I believe this life is all we've got so I intend to make the best out of things while I'm here.

Well hey, with their logic, when we abort babies, that's what god's plan was. You know why? Because if it wasn't god's plan, you couldn't do it. Anything to the contrary is bullshit, because god is god. God gets to do whatever his magical plan is. So when they bitch, it shows that it's not in line with THEIR plan, not god.

I'm no atheist, I'm just not a fucking chump. When god comes and sits down with me and tells me the deal, I'll listen. I won't however listen to another human being spout shit about god. We are all humans here and need to act like it. There are no gods here. Man rules the earth and is in charge of its own destiny. We can sit on our asses and die, kill eachother till the end of time, or we can do something to better everyone's lives.

And Daark brings up a huge point. While fucktards in washington hold us back, other nations with no moral bullshit are making progress leaving us in the dust, making us inferior and less in charge of our own world. People that stop our progress while our competition moves onward are going to royally fuck us over. Again, Bush should be hanged along with many others for crimes against the US. It should be done live on TV world wide to show the world what a piece of shit these people are, and that we aren't afriad to kill them or anyone else. The USA needs it's balls and leadership back.

[Prrkitty]

Thru all of this discussion that's been going on... I've not seen the option that is honestly the most used for stem cell research. And that is unused fertilized eggs from fertility doctor offices or places that store these fertilized eggs. Not all fertilized eggs that couples create for a possible pregnancy are ever used.

And I’ve heard that there are millions and millions and millions of these fertilized eggs just taking up space. They could be used for stem cell research. They could be used to help find a cure for diabetes (something I have). They could be used to help find a cure for cancer, MS and a lot more other problems that we, as humans, face in our life time.

Heck, I’d be willing to give what eggs I have to stem cell researchers if they could use them to help find cures for our human frailty. I’d do it in a heartbeat!

[Monica]

Unless you're raped, too young to understand the consequences of sex, had your primary method of birth control fail (as in 50% of cases), couldn't get access to birth control, or you're stuck with a pregnancy you can't physically, financially or mentally take care of. And this doesn't depend on something like marriage or chastity. The "lol don't spread your legs then" stance is pretty offensive imo. Just sayin'

That's why I said if it's an attack (rape) or if she's gonna die from it then it's probably okay.

Okay, IRL I have never met anyone who thinks like some of you guys, and that's why I enjoy these debates and adding my side to the table. I mean no offense, and I post what I have to say with the thought that no one's better than anyone else, and it's ultimately between them and God what they do. I thought about starting my first post with that but I feel like I've said that over and over again and it might be redundant.

I believe in what I said, but maybe part of it was a little too harsh and self-rightious, (what I said about unwanted babies and how not to have them) While that's the ideal way, I know it's impossible, and I'm sorry.

While I stand by everything else I said, I have to admit it's completely up to the woman and between her and God in the end, just like every other sin on earth. And with that said, bombing abortion clinics is wrong, I don't believe in that, it's not Christian.

And again, if they were gonna use already dead fetuses that they themselves don't kill, then that might be all right.

[gdorf]

I don't know how we got talking about abortion, but the issue at hand is stem cell research and they are NOT one in the same.

My views:
Pro-Life.
Pro-Stem cell research.

Bush needs to take a biology class. There is no good reason (moral or otherwise) not to promote stem cell research.

[punkonjunk1024]

Yes there is!!!!11
Once the eggy hits the spermy, a SOUL is formed! A god loved soul! YOU MURDERERS!

Mott brings up a good point though. And uh, don't unborn babies go to heaven, anyhow? You're just saving them the trouble if sinning and possibly falling short of the glory of our lord jesus H christ.

Religious people are hyporcites. When you point it out, you lose, because "you don't know god."

I got in an arguement with my pastor last sunday, and he said I must have renounced faith, because such a debate would be reserved only for "athiest slime"
And then he walked away.
(edit: for the record, I was a born again christian for about 2 years, when I was thirteen. I grew out of it after spending time to read the bible cover-to-cover, but I still attend church often... simply because it makes debating it with the religious alot easier. I believe there could be a god. Just not a racist homophobic patracentric retard.)

and I agree with masa. It pisses people off... but just as badly as some of this pissed some of us off. Yet the directly offensive nature of his comment is much worse than the conceptual offensiveness that this topic is even a discussion? They're not really alive.
God damnit, we step on ANTS with more mental capacity every day without knowing it.
All of this is asinine. I'm gonna go masturbate to pictures of aborted fetuses.
or.. Feti?

[erm2003]

Mott brings up a good point though. And uh, don't unborn babies go to heaven, anyhow? You're just saving them the trouble if sinning and possibly falling short of the glory of our lord jesus H christ.


Not if you follow Catholic beliefs.

Baptisim is supposed to be for the original sin. Catholics believe that if a baby dies before it is baptized it will go to limbo no matter how pure the child is. Once the child is baptized, it could enter heaven if it dies.

I posted this here (http://www.armageddongames.net/showthread.php?t=92001) a while back.

[punkonjunk1024]

Lets also note that the catholics removed books from the bible for various reasons, including removal of jesus's implied marriage/sex life, and a few things that might make woman like they were worth more than shit. I'm pretty sure catholics are insane, even by christian standards.

EDIT
I went to go get some food from my dads house.
He was watching some crazy show for kids about catholocism, instructing them to choose a patron saint and pray to them in heaven.
Uh yeah.

[erm2003]

Oh I know. I am not Catholic. I was actually, but enough is enough sometimes. Haha.

EDIT: I should be more specific. My family is Christian. We did attend a Catholic church, but a lot of the doctorine really gets in the way of the true teachings of Christianity, so now we attend a non-denominational Christian church. Some of the conservative beliefs are still there, but it's not as bad.

[Jigglysaint]

I am thankful I live in Canada. While I don't support abortion except in cases of life and death(even a child fomed out of rape can grow up to be a good person), or incest, I have to admit that stem cell research could help make the world a better place.

If stem cells could be taken from another source, that would be good. I think one issue is that if stem cell research gets funding, will that encourage people to have more abortions in an attempt to feel justified about it? Perhaps not, but on the other hand, humans donate organs to others, and sometimes babies who are born without vital signs are still able to give some of their organs to save another life. Is this any different?

The big problem does come because as a society, we generally love babies. They are innocent, perfect, cute, and all that. What I think happens is that when one talks of stem cells, a mental image comes into their head about an evil abortionist and a slutty teen somehow murderously yanking the fetus out of the body with as much disrespect for childbirth as one could get. Of course that image is not correct, but the mental picture is still there. Getting over these pictures is a hard thing to do.

Anyway, there is also the issue about playing God. Do men have the right to tinker with the body this way? Well if you were to look back, I bet a lot of the life saving things we have were met either with hostility, or was touted as a miracle. Imagine if this mendical practice of stem cell usage took off? It would cause a moral explosion within people. Kill a baby and grandpa can live? Is that right? What do people do when faced with two choices that are equal in their benefits as they are in their downsides? As for disabilites, as many of you know, I have many friends who are intellectually challenged, one of whom is my girlfriend, who was brain damaged at birth. I will tell you that one of the sadest things that comes to me is when I see people with brain damage exibit signs of gifts and talents that could have been there if nothing happened to them. My girlfriend, for example, has a great memory for dates, times, and numeric stuff. She could have gone to school and follow in her father's footsteps and become an engineer or somthing. Instead, she stays home most of the time because she can't go out alone by herself. She doesn't know how to take the bus, she calls people chicken all the time, and she can't read past a grade 2 level. While a disability does sometimes make us stronger through our trials, imagine if the person is not able to get anything out of it? My girlfriend was not raised Christian, but rather is a-religious. She doesn't understand, and therefore, does not care about God, Jesus, sins, and all that stuff. In short, according to Christian doctrine, she gets a free pass into heaven.

But what could stem cells do to help her? If the damaged portions of her brain were somehow able to be re-grown, and she learned to use them, would she still be able to cope with life? Sometimes you spend your entire life learning to cope with a disability that it becomes a big part of your life, and a part of your identity. Sure a retarded person is retarded, but at least he's got an identity in the world. If you took that away, especially later in life, what would he have? He'd be worse off because he's still at the same level he was when his brain didn't work well. It's like learning to walk after your leg muscles have degenerated. Some disabiltiies, like Cystic Fibrosis and Muscular Dystrophy on the other hand, that stuff should certainly have some help. I can't see any adverse reactions to suddenly not have fluid in your lungs and never needing to have it pumped out every so often.

Wht if the government had a cash for eggs deal going? I am sure many women who never plan to have kids could donate them to science and it would avoid the who issue of abortion. Like Prkitty said, they are just lying arround, and they get wasted. Perhaps the money could help single mothers through a tough time. Of course it would also act as a slight population control, but then again, maybe it could be God's way of weeding out the "defectives"(women who don't want kids). Of course even if God's Will was revealed to us, we humans are so bloody behind we would just mis-interpret it as an other excuse to whine about crap again.

[erm2003]

Here's another thought. If humans were designed by God and we were given the intelligence to figure out how to use stem cells to help cure diseases and other problems, then how do we know that it's truly not of God's design? This one has always been in the back of my head and no one has been able to do a decent job answering it.

[MottZilla]

Jiggly, first off, I like many, don't think babies are cute or innocent. A fetus is very similar to a parasite really, unless you intended to have a child. I for one, don't view babies as innocent, perfect, or cute. I see them as what they are. Useless infants that are a dime a dozen. The fact is, your baby dies, fuck someone again, poof you've got another one on the way. Wow that was so difficult and special.

Issue of playing god? Or do you mean the issue of being retarded do nothing people. We have the oppurtunity to seize technology to better our existance. Playing god is a retarded phrase too. No one can play god, unless you are a god. Deciding who lives your dies is already done EVERYDAY, by our government. Don't act like this is new.

About retarded or disabled people that may have defined themselves by it, if you could fix it, YOU WOULD. No one in their right mind would stay fucked up for the purpose of keeping some kind of identify revolving around being fucked up. And even if they did, they have the choice wether or not totake treatment.

Anyways, this God's will crap is bullshit, or atleast meaningless. We are humans, we do whatever we want. Believe me, if god comes out of the fucking sky and tells us to do something, we'll probably do it. But until that, by believing is some totally unconfirmable divine being having the will for anything or whatever is retarded. You shouldn't restrain yourself for fear/honor of some fucking casper you've never seen.

Anyways, I guess it's "my opinion" but, the fact is so much useful genetic material is wasted. Even people that want kids don't use all the materials that come about in a life time. Not to mention that donating such would be VOLUNTARY. But all because of this the government won't fund it? Retarded. Besides, they waste our money on plenty of other things and plenty of things that could be considered immoral.


Here's another thought. If humans were designed by God and we were given the intelligence to figure out how to use stem cells to help cure diseases and other problems, then how do we know that it's truly not of God's design? This one has always been in the back of my head and no one has been able to do a decent job answering it.

Ya this goes to what I said about this god's will bullshit. The fact is, if something was divine and all powerful, you DON'T have the capability to go against it. Thus, the agruement is bullshit. If god didn't want us to abort babies, or use stem cells from embryos, watch cable tv, etc. Well then we WOULDN'T. God is divine and all powerful, aren't you actually insulting God by even suggesting that we could stand against him/her/it?

[punkonjunk1024]

Ya this goes to what I said about this god's will bullshit. The fact is, if something was divine and all powerful, you DON'T have the capability to go against it. Thus, the agruement is bullshit. If god didn't want us to abort babies, or use stem cells from embryos, watch cable tv, etc. Well then we WOULDN'T. God is divine and all powerful, aren't you actually insulting God by even suggesting that we could stand against him/her/it?
Know what christians say when I offer this arguement?
"It's his plan to allow us divinely inspired humans to thwart that evil, to provide as an example against the evil aspiring democrats" ect ect ect

God is basically their little tool to work around any possible logical arguement, but he is not ours to manipulate, unless we're on their side.

That's what i've learned.

[erm2003]

Know what christians say when I offer this arguement?
"It's his plan to allow us divinely inspired humans to thwart that evil, to provide as an example against the evil aspiring democrats" ect ect ect

God is basically their little tool to work around any possible logical arguement, but he is not ours to manipulate, unless we're on their side.

That's what i've learned.

I think there are a lot of cases where you are right. There are some very crazy people who do this too. And when they aren't careful they start to forget the difference between what is right and wrong and they start to do some radical things.

The most recent group I can think of being that small church that goes to solders funerals and blames homosexuals for the war in Iraq. This is what happens when you lose sight of what God's direction is and you use God to justify all of your actions, right or wrong.

[mikeron]

I am thankful I live in Canada.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man, whew!

Okay, back on topic. Having read H.R. 810, it seems quite clear that the president was simply making a political maneuver, drawing a line in the sand, as only the obtuse and uninformed would actually take issue with this bill for any of the reasons stated. Of course it's possible that it may provide avenues to future loopholes, allowing all manner of medical abomination, but I highly doubt it. The text of the bill specifies that:

(1) The stem cells were derived from human embryos that have been donated from in vitro fertilization clinics, were created for the purposes of fertility treatment, and were in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking such treatment.

(2) Prior to the consideration of embryo donation and through consultation with the individuals seeking fertility treatment, it was determined that the embryos would never be implanted in a woman and would otherwise be discarded.

(3) The individuals seeking fertility treatment donated the embryos with written informed consent and without receiving any financial or other inducements to make the donation.
The word "determined" in part 2 does invite musings on corruptible health department cogs, but that's 50% of all medical legislation anyway. So, the embryos under consideration here are going to be destroyed if not used for research. Let me rephrase that - they are going to be killed. Furthermore, these embryos have nothing to do with abortion.

...!

Now, stepping aside from H.R. 810, stem cell research can continue without embryos, but it's more difficult. I think the real problem with medical research is a lack of hard science being done in Biology. For decades, skiddish members of congress, fearing an apocalyptic outbreak of genetically engineered super diseases has routinely cut funding to Molecular Biology and related fields. As a result, our ability to develop work-arounds in quandaries such as these has been stifled. Politicians are rarely qualified to make decisions regarding science, and this is simply another painful example.

[MacWeirdo42]

In my opinion, Christianity was a good idea, until people decided to take it all literally.

Not to be insulting or anything, but seriously, if people would quit worrying about the details, and focus on the message, the world would be a better place. As I recall, the message of Christ was a message of love. It doesn't matter what's a sin, or whether or not the events of the Bible took place, or whether Jesus is even a real person... The message remains the same.