Prayer does nothing

[Beldaran]

Study shows that prayer doesn't heal people. (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa004&articleID=000AFE22-9D1E-146C-9D1E83414B7F0000&ref=rss)

In other news, 1+1 = 2 and gravity exists.

[biggiy05]

People pray because it gives them a form of hope. Just because a scientific study proves that it doesn't help doesn't mean they are going to stop anytime soon.

No matter how many scientific tests are done on religion it will never go away. People will always go to church and keep religion with them.

Waste of money if you ask me.

[Aegix Drakan]

^_^ hmm...and I suppose that the hundred of people who were healed by prayer and hope alone are all wrong?

sorry, but it DOES help. If you believe something is possible, it makes it that much easier for it to actually BE possible!

[MacWeirdo42]

Bah... God isn't your Fairy Godmother, going around granting wishes to those who ask real nicely. Sorry, I've always had problems with people who look at religion like that.

On the other hand, I wonder what effect prayer has on people's mental states. Sure, there's no indication that it helps physically, but I'd be interested to see, for example, if people who knew they were prayed for had lower levels of stress/depression, that sort of thing (although apparently, according to this study, praying increases stress, so hmm...).

I'll be willing to admit there may be benefits to prayer, I just have doubts that they're the kinds of benefits these people are actually hoping for.

[moocow]

Fuck scientific theories. Prayer is about faith, and faith is about believing in something. All sensible people know that the world isn't like "Bruce Almighty", you can't win the lottery by praying, obviously. People pray because they have faith in a higher power, and their faith in that higher power, whatever it may be to them, is what helps heal in certain ways. It may not make you better, physically or mentally, but for some people it makes the situation easier.

Anyone who prances around thinking that praying will keep you alive is obviously an idiot, but prayer does help heal in ways that only someone who has faith can understand. If you don't believe it, and you lack the faith, then you just won't get it.

I agree with biggiy on this one, I don't understand why there are so many scientific studies out there on religion. Religion has been around for thousands of years, and it's going to be around forever. Some scientific study isn't going to magically make it disappear... Some people just get off on trying to ruin other people's hope that there's someone watching over us.

[Archibaldo]

Hmmm. Yeah, prayer does nothing physically. But wouldn't you feel better knoswing that a bunch of people are praying for you. Hoping you get better. Even if it doesn't heal your disease or whatever, so stll get a good feeling knwoing that people out there care about you.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

Beldaran, this study is worthless. You can't scientifically measure relativity, or the future. There's absolutely no possible way of knowing exactly how things would have gone had those people not been prayed for. This study might make sense if the people had prayed for a feather to float upwards, but saying that prayer does nothing in a completely ambiguious situation is nothing short of idiocy. Praying for something does not mean it will come out exactly the way you want it to, and anyone with genuine faith should know that. Biblically, the deepest desire of any prayerful Christian should be that God's will is done.

What exactly did the people pray for? What denomination were they? How often did they attend church that month? How often do they pray at home? Do any of those things matter at all? Probably not, but then again, can you scientifically prove that they don't? Of course not. This study proves nothing.

[Prrkitty]

We can't, logically, prove that God does or does not exist. Hence... I don't think science can logically prove that praying for something does or does not help or improve what's being prayed for.

[SomaLlama]

someone needs to find jesus so we can run a scientific test on if in fact he did die for our sins.

[Daarkseid]

If you believe something is possible, it makes it that much easier for it to actually BE possible!

that much = not any



If you believe something is possible, it makes it [not any] easier for it to actually BE possible!

[MottZilla]

Thus far no one has proved you can pray or "believe something is possible" enough to get anything to happen that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Example being if someone is shot and you pray to god they survive and they do survive, praying did absolutely nothing because chances are when they were shot it decided the outcome right then and there. It was either serious or not. Praying only gives the illusion of working because you can't be everywhere at once and see all the things going on. Religious people will call this as being god working through people or some shit.

It's all BS. The only things that make a difference are your attitude. If you lay back and think god save me, you're fucked. If you put up a fight/do something, you have a better chance at things. Other than that everything can be quite boringly be boiled down to science. No mystic forces yet I'm afriad.

[Lilith]

Prayer is useful because in situations where there's absolutely nothing you can do, it's a way of externalizing and relieving yourself.

[ONeilcool]

Can someone explain to me why it cost 2.4 million dollars for a study like this?

[slothman]

Religion aside, why couldn't prayer at least be a placebo.
Besides making you feel good, it might actually help your body.
It may not regenerate a lost limb but it could make you heal faster.

[erm2003]

Can someone explain to me why it cost 2.4 million dollars for a study like this?

No one can explain why they would ever have to spend that much. What would be even better if some of that came out of taxpayer money. Now that's a swift kick in the pants.

[Rainman]

Can someone explain to me why it cost 2.4 million dollars for a study like this?
The large part of the cost would be the salaries of scientist doing the study. You can end up with a lot of cost once you get a lot of people to pay for a significant amount of time.

[redmage777]

Athiest don't need scinece the beleive there is no God, they use the same thing that christians use to beleive there is a God, FAITH. We all put our faith in something. In maters of Faith the results of any scentific experement is all in the eyes of the beholder. If an experement goes against you beliefs, then it must be fake, biast and or inconclusive.

How can you use sceince to prove the creator doesen't exist. "Five thousand years ago, God created a world that was billions of a year old." I can't prove thats true, and you can't prove its not...

Bad things happen because he allows them to, it part of plan for an ultimate end. Its alot like an Author who allows his protagonist to endure hardships so he can ultimatly overcome them. The Author's power over what happens in the Book is absolute, they set the very laws of physics and time, Life and Death bend to their will. If there was a power like that sitting up their just waiting for you to ask for help wouln't you? Perhaps they would help, but if it goes against their plan then, no.

[koopa]

I agree with moocow on this one.

It may not make you better, physically or mentally, but for some people it makes the situation easier.
...
prayer does help heal in ways that only someone who has faith can understand.

You could try this experiment for yourself, if you don't believe in prayer: pray that you'll recieve a million dollars by tomorrow, wait a day and see what happens. Chances are, nothing will. What have you proved? That prayer doesn't work? More likely, that God isn't your slave and he doesn't grant you every material wish you have.

I have had enough personal experiences in my life where prayer has done something for me that I believe it does work. You can't fold your hands and expect all problems in life to vanish, but what I got in return was not nothing, either.


In other news, 1+1 = 2 and gravity exists.
Gravity exists, science is not a load of bullshit, dinosaurs are for real. I believe all that but it doesn't stop me from calling myself a christian.

Science and religion do not exclude each other for me. Science and religious extremism, that's another matter. Incidentally, the very Issac Newton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_religious_views) (yeah, a Wikipedia link) who discovered the law of gravity and the calculus which governs much of physics today was a believer in God.

Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done.
From the gravity man himself.

[Jigglysaint]

People have every right to believe despite any evidence that shows it's not effective.
In the information age, people place way too much priority on facts and information than they do on feelings. The art of prayer is governed by the person's feelings, and sometimes, for some reason, the more devotion one puts into these feelings, the more certain situations tend to fall into place. I should know, I've had "prayers" answered before. Of course one trick is to never pray for miracles, or else you'd be disappointed most of the time.

But anyway, the point is not whether you kneel by the bedside and hope God will heal them, it's all about positive energy. You can certainly be a non-believer, and still believe and hope for the best. In the end the power comes from your own heart and your actions. We should stop outsourcing our positive energy.

[Rainman]

Athiest don't need scinece the beleive there is no God, they use the same thing that christians use to beleive there is a God, FAITH. We all put our faith in something. In maters of Faith the results of any scentific experement is all in the eyes of the beholder. If an experement goes against you beliefs, then it must be fake, biast and or inconclusive.
I don't have faith. I'm a skeptic. I don't believe things unless I see significant evidence. As of yet, I have no conclusive proof that there is a god so I reject the idea that he exists. Technically I may be an agnostic since I can't say without a doubt that there isn't a god; however, agnosticism implies a bit of wishy-washiness about the issue.

Scepticism is the basis of the scientific process. We don't believe things just because we want it to be true or it feels true or someone with a funny hat tells us so. We use experiments and studies to understand our environment and make claims. Even when we make claims it's never 100%. Science is all about how true things appear to be given the amount of evidence. One experiment is not going to be accepted outright by the entire scientific community. Immediately after an experiment is published and a claim is made, the rest of the scientific community will carefully examine the experiment.

Was the sampling big enough? Was the sampling diverse enough to represent the population as a whole? What factors are being ignored?

Questions like these are always asked. The next step is for other scientists to try and reproduce the results. Some might recreate the experiment while others might add different elements to consider possible alternate factors. The point is that experiment results are not taken on "faith" as you seem to think. In fact, nothing is 100% believed. That why we have so many theories. Even scientific laws are only called so because experiments have proven it so often that it ridiculous to dwell on it anymore.

It's this relative uncertainty that, I think, turns off a lot of people who'd rather just have someone tell them something absolute. It's less work. It's more comfortable, even if it's not the truth.

[redmage777]

Personaly I find Agnostics very intresting, an True Agnostic is very open minded, They can be wishy-washy but they don't put up a brick wall when things out side their beleifs come up, many of them Question it, and want to learn more. Apart from maybe Wickens they are some of them most intresting people i've talked to when it comes to thelogical debate and discussion.

By the way, Why can't you say that their isn't a god?

[Rainman]

Personaly I find Agnostics very intresting, an True Agnostic is very open minded, They can be wishy-washy but they don't put up a brick wall when things out side their beleifs come up, many of them Question it, and want to learn more. Apart from maybe Wickens they are some of them most intresting people i've talked to when it comes to thelogical debate and discussion.

By the way, Why can't you say that their isn't a god?
Well, for example, some people call themselves deist. These people believe that the universe was created by a god. He set all the rules and physics and just let things run. He no longer, after creation, interferes with anything. In this case it's impossible to say it isn't true. You can't prove a god exists if he doesn't affect anything.

I, at times, agree with the deist perspective, but there are problems with it. The underlying thought process is that since the universe exists there must be a creator. This at face value seems a good argument. However, it begs a few questions. We are assuming that the creator->creation relationship must exist. Maybe existence is just default. We don't know. Also, if we were to accept that there is a creator then who created him? In the end, creator theories never answer anything about existence because eventually we just assume that some creator existed without needing to be created.

As I've said before, we don't know. Unless we can prove that some deity is affecting this world (which is what this study is fundamentally about) then I think it's unimportant to pursue an uninterested deity theory. It gets us nowhere.


As for agnosticism, I don't like being termed that because it claims that no decision has been made. I have decided and that is that all god theories are wrong or at least unprovable. You mention open-mindness. A true skeptic is always open-minded. You need to be able to consider all theories if you want to find the best one. What some people preceive as closed-mindedness within the scientific community is really just a bit of annoyance. People introduce claims that have already been extensively considered and refuted by the community at large. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that is because it takes a lot to outweigh existing evidence and get a debate going. That's not to mean that scientists are close-minded. It's just that science would slow down a lot if every claim was seriously considered every time it was brought up.

[punkonjunk1024]

Study shows that prayer doesn't heal people. (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa004&articleID=000AFE22-9D1E-146C-9D1E83414B7F0000&ref=rss)

In other news, 1+1 = 2 and gravity exists.
/signed



sorry, but it DOES help. If you believe something is possible, it makes it that much easier for it to actually BE possible!

IT's all placebo. I believe it works through placebo.
Honestly, look at your diving fucking lore. When was the last time Jehovah DID something for humanity? Also... How would we have free will if he reversed life's consequences? Prayer CANT do anything within the bounds of faith. I don't remember reading anywhere in the bible that Jehovah WANTS us to ask for things. He wants us to PRAY not ask him for shit.

If you believe your friends and family are (flawedly, even if devoutly religious) asking Jehovah to help heal you, and you believe in prayer as healing...
It'll help. Faith, and positive thinking help.