The immigration fight continues in Philly

[rocksfan13]

I read this in the news today. Looks like someone in Philly is joining the immigration debate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13208549/

As far as the sign reads, I like him already!

[Glitch]

If you can't speak english you need to get the fuck outta the US.

[rocksfan13]

Is it me or did I read somewhere that they were trying to make a new amendment to declare English the National language?
Thought I saw that somewhere. Can anyone confirm that?

[biggiy05]

If you can't speak english you need to get the fuck outta the US.

They need to be able to speak english and we have to be able to understand them. If you can't understand what they are saying then they need to leave.

That and they should be here LEGALLY.

[Dechipher]

I don't care of they can't speak english. No reason to make them conform.

However, WE should not have to adapt for them. This is OUR country and if they want to get along, they can learn it. They don't have to, though.

Of course, I may be biased. Speaking spanish will help me on the job market quite a bit :D

[Rainman]

A private business has every right to do this.

By the way, the English as a national language law seems to me to be a huge waste of time and money. English is already widely spoken throughout the country. All laws are written in english. All politician speak english. English is already for all intents and purposes the official language of the United States. All the proposed national language law is about is making it look like congress is doing something about immigration.

[rocksfan13]

By the way, the English as a national language law seems to me to be a huge waste of time and money. English is already widely spoken throughout the country. All laws are written in english. All politician speak english. English is already for all intents and purposes the official language of the United States. All the proposed national language law is about is making it look like congress is doing something about immigration.

Just goes to show you the extent that the American government will go to to make it look like they are actually doing something. I personnally think that if they wanted to do that, it was too little, too late. Because now by passing such a thing with all the other languages in this country and foreign legal people speeking them. It will cause a lot more problems than it was intended to solve.

[MacWeirdo42]

What the hell? Since when are immigrants "forcing" anyone to learn Spanish? So they may not speak the language, big deal, that's their problem, not ours, isn't it? Grow a pair, for God's sake, and be okay with the fact that you don't understand a damn word they're saying. No one's expecting you to, and nothing's going to happen if you don't.

I just don't see what the commotion is all about. The only possible consequence I see here from them not speaking English is guilt for not knowing Spanish and not being able to understand someone.

[Monica]

What the hell? Since when are immigrants "forcing" anyone to learn Spanish? So they may not speak the language, big deal, that's their problem, not ours, isn't it? Grow a pair, for God's sake, and be okay with the fact that you don't understand a damn word they're saying. No one's expecting you to, and nothing's going to happen if you don't.

I just don't see what the commotion is all about. The only possible consequence I see here from them not speaking English is guilt for not knowing Spanish and not being able to understand someone.

But if the immagrants get jobs at fast food places and stores and things, and all they speak is Spanish, is that not forcing citizens to either speak Spanish, find a translator, or get their order wrong?

Not to mention, how are the Spanish speakers supposed to convey their own orders and requests to citizens if citizens "aren't forced" to learn Spanish?

[Dark Nation]

I agree wholeheartedly with Geno's policy. And my wife is from another country. She learned English. And speaks it better than some people who were born here. Her brother lives in Philadelphia. He learned English. Besides, Pat's King of Steaks is like 150 feet away from Geno's. And their food is better. :D

[Rainman]

But if the immagrants get jobs at fast food places and stores and things, and all they speak is Spanish, is that not forcing citizens to either speak Spanish, find a translator, or get their order wrong?

Not to mention, how are the Spanish speakers supposed to convey their own orders and requests to citizens if citizens "aren't forced" to learn Spanish?
If your server can't understand you then go else where. Free market would fix the problem if people realized you could do this.

Monica Edit: Oh my gosh, I accidently put my own post in yours O_O I dunno how but I promise it was an accident...>_<

[MacWeirdo42]

If your server can't understand you then go else where. Free market would fix the problem if people realized you could do this.
Thank you Rainman, my point exactly. English is already the de facto national language, and it's not in any danger of losing that status anytime soon. The people who have to adapt are those who don't speak English, not us. I know it makes me sound like a pig-headed American to put it like that, but it's the truth.

To me, this whole business just sounds like xenophobia, because honestly, I just can't see where the problem is.

[Monica]

If your server can't understand you then go else where. Free market would fix the problem if people realized you could do this.


So, for example, a person who lives in a tiny town all their life who wants some McDonalds or Taco Bell or any other fast food that's in town, should drive 15 minutes away with inflated gas prices and should never have fast food or buy groceries or anything in their own town again? And next you are gonna tell me that that isn't the Spanish language forcing people out of their home town?

(Yes I used my cruddy town as an example)

[Rainman]

I live in a small crappy town so I can sympathize with you about limited options. However, for the most part, you would only be out a few luxury items (like Mcdonalds and Taco Bell) and if the boycott is widespread enough it wouldn't take long to make change. It takes a bit of sacrifice to create change.

[Dechipher]

Why don't we just buy Mexico?

[Monica]

I live in a small crappy town so I can sympathize with you about limited options. However, for the most part, you would only be out a few luxury items (like Mcdonalds and Taco Bell) and if the boycott is widespread enough it wouldn't take long to make change. It takes a bit of sacrifice to create change.

Change. Here? Right, that's a good one. :D Oh you have NO idea, :rofl: I used it in my little story, but honestly, it's not a problem here, we live far enough away from the border. (unfortunately we have other problems) But I was thinking about if it came here, and sympathyzing with other cruddy towns...^^

[Lilith]

What the hell? Since when are immigrants "forcing" anyone to learn Spanish? So they may not speak the language, big deal, that's their problem, not ours, isn't it? Grow a pair, for God's sake, and be okay with the fact that you don't understand a damn word they're saying. No one's expecting you to, and nothing's going to happen if you don't.

I just don't see what the commotion is all about. The only possible consequence I see here from them not speaking English is guilt for not knowing Spanish and not being able to understand someone.

Well depending on the area, Moncia's right, businesses and such will speak only in Spanish. I've been in those areas, and I guess I was rather "huh?" but whatever, Mexican neighboorhood of mostly Mexicans speaking Spanish, that's fine by me. The problem is when they take the same attitude elsewhere. I actually transfered stores, because the one I was working at was frequented everyday by Mexicans very very pissed off that I didn't speak English, and liked trying the "yelling in Spanish instead of trying to speak English, because I am going to learn to speak Spanish that way" tactic at me all the time.

Also they were generally bitchy and hostile, and interpreted every vaguely negative thing I did as racism. Right before I decided to transfer, I was at the register in a really bad mood (I hadn't slept at all and had been fighting with my bf), and I keyed a transaction wrong and had to redo it. I thought it was pretty obviously my frustrated sighs were directed at ME being stupid with the register, but apparently the guy I was serving was Mexican (I hadn't even noticed), and the woman started screaming at my coworker in front of everyone how racist I was and how I should be fired. Wouldn't even look at me, just my coworker, even as I was apologizing and crying my eyes out, she was treating me like dirt because OMG I have pale skin and was in a bad mood, so I h8 Mexicans.. I just kind of went home after that and decided to transfer.

So yeah, not blaming that incident as common, but there's a very strong ATTITUDE of that in certain places that turns everyone into a dick after awhile and puts pressure on society. It made me really wary and rather annoyed with Mexicans in general after awhile, because I'd keeping making the mistake of greeting them and then get bitched at for not doing it in Spanish. The store I transfered to has immigrants too, but they're a lot nicer and I haven't had the same problem...only in one or two cases has no one spoken ANY English, but they didn't seem to hate me for it and I just directed them to someone who spoke Spanish. I guess it depends on the area.

[Darth Marsden]

Why don't we just buy Mexico?
And ruin my plans for world domination? Just you try it.

It's an interesting situation and I kind of agree with what he's trying to do. Reminds me of an episode of South Park, actually...


South Park, day. The boys walk down the commercial district noticing immigrants from time to time. Various immigrants greet them and try to sell them fruits, but the boys walk on. A hovering futuristic car comes up next to them, sets down, and bounces the front end up and down like a lowrider. The driver then activates the hydraulics and the car begins to dance. The boys just look in wonder as the car settles down and then moves off. Its exhaust hits the boys' faces and they cough. Next, the boys head for a Wendell's Burgers restaurant. They enter and head for the counter
Kyle: Aw, dude. The boys see that the restaurant is staffed by immigrants from the future. One of them approaches to take an order
Cashier: Gaur da'ka?
Stan: Can you speak in present-day English please?
Cashier: Uh oh... Can I help... you?
Stan: Uh yeah, I want a double cheeseburger and fries.
Cashier: Looks at the boys quizzically, then shows off the chicken sandwich to his left Chicken sandwich?
Stan: Getting annoyed No, a double cheeseburger and fries!
Cashier: Taps away at the machine's keyboard A cheeg- fry?
Stan: What?!
Cashier: A cheeg- fry?
Cartman: We can't understand you, asshole!
The cashier's manager comes up and talks to him for a bit. The cashier points at the boys. The manager takes over and resets the order
Manager: Can I help you?
Stan: I'm trying to order a double cheeseburger!
[B]Manager: Shows off the chicken sandwich to his left Chicken sandwich?
Stan: No, it's not a chicken sandwich! His parents enter the restaurant and stand in line behind him and the boys I want a Goddamned cheeseburger and some Goddamned fries you fucking goobacks!
Randy: Stan Marsh!
Stan: Aw-awwww.

[rocksfan13]

Now tell me that you guys didn't see this comming.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13272368/

It was only a matter of time.

[Darth Marsden]

Being PC totally sucks ass. I wanna make fun of black people again! I wanna joke about gays! I wanna make wisecracks about women!

Fucking Beaurocrats.

[SUCCESSOR]

I don't know what's bringing about your guys' beef.

I live half an hour from Juarez. For anyone who doesn't know that is the official name for Mexico's unwiped inflamed asshole(great place to go get smashed). Anyway, restaurants and other businesses have lots of spanish speaking employees who don't know a bit of English. Never once have I had a problem. These people aren't taking my order, asking me to learn another language, or Inconveniencing(sp?) me in anyway.

I've worked construction with people who couldn't speak English. No problems. The little Spanish I knew and the little English they knew and lots of signing and some trial and error and it was all go. Not ideal but in know way a bother.

Any place only offering services via one language has bad business skills and will eventually conform or be pushed out if demand is high enough. You might construe this as forcing businesses to offer spanish services but that is far from true. If a business chooses not to offer bilingual service to a bilingual society than they choose to not have that business. If a restaurant opens with only spanish speaking employees that is their right also, either learn some lingo or don't eat there.

[Toolie]

And you guys are going to somehow try to tell me that the English-only policy your so in support of has not a lick to do with your racist views, right? I don't buy it. It boils down to racism, and that's it.

Places around the world have many languages clashing and mixing in daily life, whole nations with multiple official languages, people who know many tongues their whole lives. Why not a big deal there? Because they're not Middle American racists.

If a few people in Philadelphia (of all places) are upset over diversity, then they can move to Idaho or Oklahoma or someplace that will support their diversity phobic views.

[SomaLlama]

And you guys are going to somehow try to tell me that the English-only policy your so in support of has not a lick to do with your racist views, right? I don't buy it. It boils down to racism, and that's it.

Places around the world have many languages clashing and mixing in daily life, whole nations with multiple official languages, people who know many tongues their whole lives. Why not a big deal there? Because they're not Middle American racists.

If a few people in Philadelphia (of all places) are upset over diversity, then they can move to Idaho or Oklahoma or someplace that will support their diversity phobic views.
im sure its not that. just that a big chunk of the people that the signs are for are from mexico, and that a big chunk of them got here illegally. i do agree tho that it isnt fair to the spanish-americans who got here legally.

[Daarkseid]

then they can move to Idaho that will support their diversity phobic views.

No, fuck that! We have enough ignorant mouthbreathing hicks as it is.

[Lilith]

And you guys are going to somehow try to tell me that the English-only policy your so in support of has not a lick to do with your racist views, right? I don't buy it. It boils down to racism, and that's it.

Places around the world have many languages clashing and mixing in daily life, whole nations with multiple official languages, people who know many tongues their whole lives. Why not a big deal there? Because they're not Middle American racists.

If a few people in Philadelphia (of all places) are upset over diversity, then they can move to Idaho or Oklahoma or someplace that will support their diversity phobic views.

Breaking news: everyone's racist.

[Drunken Tiger]

Damn those Asian, everywhere you go theres fortune cookies and fried rice. Its an Asian invasioN!!

[Dechipher]

then they can move to Oklahoma that will support their diversity phobic views.

No, fuck that! We have enough ignorant mouthbreathing hicks as it is.No, fuck that! We have enough ignorant mouthbreathing hicks as it is.


Yes, fuck that. We also hate gays, btw.

[Toolie]

Breaking news: everyone's racist.

Well, I suppose if everyone doesn't include me and a lot of people I know.

[MacWeirdo42]

Actually, I've read about an interesting theory that holds that 20% of the population is racist, 20% is not, and 60% just follow whichever side happens to be popular at the time.

[Toolie]

While I doubt your numbers, that's qualitatively pretty much how everything works in this country. A few people on either side of an issue have actual opinions based on thought, and the rest in the middle are too lazy to think it out for themselves, so they allow themselves to be manipulated by whoever is better at on those two opposite sides.

[SomaLlama]

While I doubt your numbers, that's qualitatively pretty much how everything works in this country. A few people on either side of an issue have actual opinions based on thought, and the rest in the middle are too lazy to think it out for themselves, so they allow themselves to be manipulated by whoever is better at on those two opposite sides.
go back to communista you communist.

[Toolie]

Nothing to do with communism. Consult a very introductory level political science class or text. Try even looking at voting statistics.

One third of registered voters are registered independent. Yet how many people vote it? Arguably, this group of independents is probably in the middle of the road. Yet none of them vote middle of the road. Because the people on either side are excellent on swaying votes toward their cause. Hence, the operation of a two party system. Couple that with massive voter apathy and a general misinformation or failure to know the depth of any current event by most people, you then get a recipe for what MacWeirdo said.

[SomaLlama]

Nothing to do with communism. Consult a very introductory level political science class or text. Try even looking at voting statistics.

One third of registered voters are registered independent. Yet how many people vote it? Arguably, this group of independents is probably in the middle of the road. Yet none of them vote middle of the road. Because the people on either side are excellent on swaying votes toward their cause. Hence, the operation of a two party system. Couple that with massive voter apathy and a general misinformation or failure to know the depth of any current event by most people, you then get a recipe for what MacWeirdo said.
so are you saying.. that people should only vote if they know something about politics or... wtf they're voting for.

WHICH IS THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT PUFF DADDY SAYS. VOTE OR DIE

[Lilith]

Well, I suppose if everyone doesn't include me and a lot of people I know.

Well you're wrong. Everyone makes racial judgements, even if you're in denial of it. Being "colorblind" counts as a racial judgement too, fyi. You can't really change it, but you can recognize it.

It sounds like you just got into college.

[Toolie]

You're trying to draw an irrelevant conclusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi), and you're not going to get far. While it is a fact that people naturally posess behaviors of ingrouping bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroup_bias) and frequently construct social stereotypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_stereotype).

Blatant racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) on the other hand - which is the topic of discussion - is a much different matter. While you have correctly pointed out that most people make spot judgments on others based on physical attributes, racism is a social construct - supported by memebers in society - that seeks to place rank on individuals based on these perceived distinctions.

From this system of rank, oppression begins. This is racism, and this is what is being discussed, and this is what I'm opposed to. You don't have to be in college to not have your head in your ass. If you want to contribute, I suggest you take yours out if you want to be taken seriously.

Anyway, rank could be anything. In this situation, the rank of "citizen" is being denied - primarily from people of Mexican descent. Now, I'm not debating views on immigration, as mine are rather non-mainstream and probably wouldn't have much support here. What I am discussing is the effectiveness of politicians in manipulating middle Americans into voting a way that benefits the politicians instead of the voters.

The arguments made for "tightening the border" are marginal, at best.

One which I will tackle now is hwo national security is repeatedly brought up; that the border is a method for potential terrorists to "infiltrate" our country and wreak havoc on the nation. Yet the politicians who are making this claim do little to prevent much higher risk threat, like container ships with nuclear weapons, access to materials for destructive weapons, or mention at all the exact same "risk" that exists with our much larger, much more porous border to the north with Canada (who actually has terrorists, as of late).

What really gives here? Well, it turns out, if you didn't know, that a lot of middle America is pretty intolerant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intolerance) to non-white non-American people who look/smell/think/dance differently than them. Now, the people in charge of this country, who are essentially very smart businessmen despite the clergy they drive to appear as, know exactly how to capitalize on this. By trying to invent marginal at best issues (others including flag-burning, terminal euthenasia, and last elections big winner: gay marraige) to appeal to middle America, they draw middle America to their side. In the case of immigration and gay marraige, they appeal to the intolerant racist views prevelant throughout middle America. With flag-burning and war, they appeal to blind patriotism (see: nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism)).

What's the point in rounding up all of these votes? Well to win, obviously. And once in power, it's to execute important, not-so-public legislation that greatly benefits business. And that's capitalism. America used to be what's called a mixed economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy) (remember high school economics?), but is now, by far, the worlds most capitalistic economy. Obviously, it's not doing to well for everyone, but working quite nicely for a select few. This however, is another topic....

[Lilith]

You're talking about institutional racism as opposed to social racism. There are different academic definitions for this. Also, I'm aware you can be "opposed" to it, that doesn't mean you aren't a part of it. Once again, you have to recognize. Your posts pretty much reek of 1) white privilege 2) assuming that everyone has the same educational opportunities and experience as you, and therefore must come to the same conclusions or else they are stupid.

And yes, I'm already aware of the issue-pushing political methods going on right now, I don't need a wiki-lecture to understand it, or some kind of enlightening "lol, people are corrupt capitalists" tone. I live in Chicago and I'm aware of things, that should speak for itself. Personally I think our country is dealing with this horribly and should make citizenship a lot easier. But I also don't understand why it's automatically racist to think that say, it doesn't make sense that our country should happily comply with a huge illegal immigration influx because we're automatically responsible for another country's economy and quality of life being shitty. Sounds nice ideologically. Doesn't sound particularly fair to legal immigrants or anyone else. Nearly everyone I've talked to who doesn't live in the US doesn't even understand why this is an argument.

[Toolie]

Your posts pretty much reek of 1) white privilege 2) assuming that everyone has the same educational opportunities and experience as you, and therefore must come to the same conclusions or else they are stupid.

Excuse me? I've worked my ass off more than you ever will. I've come from a very unpriveleged family in any sense of the word and work harder than your hauty self could understand by paying my own way through work to get through college - with a very difficult field of study at that.

By that definition, then yes, I agree that I assume that most people have the opportunity for education that I did - which is no advantage. And the conclusions I draw stem from a reality which you accept, namely the Republican party mobilizing its base through polarizing election year issues to render votes. I'm not discussing or forcing opinions, only facts.

And look up the definitions of institutional racism versus social racism. Or since you have an aversion to being "wiki-lectured", how about you just listen to what I'm telling you. You're saying everyone instinctively draws conclusions on people based on attributes like race, and I'm agreeing with you. However, that is completely irrelevant. Racism is different than subconsciously drawing conclusions on race. Racism is keeping those conclusions, and allowing injustice to happen based from them. While racism isn't being directly supported by the government (well, except for gays), it's definately being drawn upon to collect votes. And that is no way to move forward.

To be frank, the only person smelling of ungrateful privilege and snobbish assumptions is you, and the "lolzer internet" crowd that sniffs your ass can say all they want, but I'm not going to be belittled and not stand up. Don't take it personally.

[Lilith]

Uhhhhh, I'm not trying belittle you at you at all and I could do without whatever personal hostility and assumptions you are now bringing up. I was explaining things from a political and social standpoint--that both you and I benefit off white privilege and such even if we are opposed to it, and it should be recognized when we're trying to diss things. Sorry if that's offensive, if you want to get personal then probably do it over IMs instead of inserting politics into it. You probably agree with what I'm saying but idk where your hostility is coming from so w/e.

[Monica]

I don't understand, Toolie, what's rascist about respecting the main language of a country? Are you saying it would be fine to go to Japan because someone hated the way America runs, go into a restauraunt and see a Japanese Only sign and then cry rascism and make a big fuss?

Not me, I'd try to at least pronounce what I wanted, and surely someone would help, because their culture is Japanese and I was moving into their world and have to play by their rules. You do know the guy didn't kick anyone out - that would be rascist - he only wanted them to say the name of what they wanted off the menu in English, that wouldn't be hard. He didn't even say perfect English.

Is the term: "When in Rome, do as the Romans" now a rascist phrase?

No, I'm not being sarcastic or anything, just trying to understand your POV...^^

[Toolie]

I don't understand what's there not to understand? If you and a bunch of your American friends moved to the same part of Munich in Germany... it would take a long time for you to figure out German, right? You would sound like a moron, right? And if the area in Germany you were in had enough Americans in it, you guys just might think it was easier to communicate and express words with each other more efficiently in English than with German, right? And doing that, long enough, you might have some people that have little reason to learn German because they live in their own little American section in Munich. I don't understand what's to agree with? It's just something that happens. My question is, why do you hate it? Why do you require these people to change?

Geno's is in a very heavily populated immigrant area in South Philadelphia. I've been there many times and I really enjoy the diversity. Obviously it's gotten to the point - the bilingualism - that many people can understand both languages. Ever been to South Florida? Southern California? It's the same thing. Quebec? Same with French. What's wrong with the diversity? Why not make English AND Spanish the official languages of the country if we're going to do that at all? What's the resistance for? What's the point?

Because it's been English here forever, because most of our parents spoke only English, because there wasn't as much Spanish here before? Right? And now that it's here... well... we need to do something to fix that and keep everything the way it was. Right? How about embracing it? That's my POV.

[Monica]

Okay, thanks. Even if I did live in an "American" section of town or whatever, the fact is, I'm still in Germany, and if I left the section I'd still have to Speak German, so maybe I'd go check out a English>German dictionary or audiotapes at the library. :) The American populated library would probably have something...

[MacWeirdo42]

You know, I'd have to agree with Successor on this one... Also being from a border town (didn't grow up there, but have spent the past few years of my life there), I don't find the English/Spanish thing to be that big of a deal. Maybe it's just me, but I've never really had much of a problem, and I'm terrible at foreign languages.

I do believe that Toolie has a point, too... This whole thing just smacks of racism, or at least xenophobia, but I think I already made that point (in that I can't see any actual harm coming from this). Anyway, to tell the truth, the primary experience I have with people being opposed to Spanish is the damn winter Texans who come down every year from the Midwest, and honestly, most of their complaining is just thinly veiled racism (they'll complain, not just about people speaking Spanish to them, but about people speaking Spanish to each other, even when the conversation has nothing to do with them), which makes me wonder what the hell they're doing in McAllen in the first place.

Alright, enough ranting for me, I'm sorely tempted to get into the whole racism debate, but I'm gonna stay out of it for now.

[mikeron]

Breaking news: everyone's racist.I'm not racist - I just hate poor people. And women.

[SUCCESSOR]

Why don't we start cracking open the Reservations and forcing all the Injuns to learn english.

The racism is that you are promoting the Idea that we FORCE all American citizens (naturalized, temporary, etc.) to learn english. Why? Is it such a strain on us? No. It's simply pinching an old twitching nerve too stubborn to die. "We are ROME! Do as we do or get the fuck out!"

This is not an issue! Don't fix what aint broke. This is big brother dancing to keep your attention away from things that matter. While your fitting over whether or not your neighbors speaks English, Your freedoms are being stolen, YOUR Constitution is being used as a bib, the economy is being ass raped, and, guess what, we're goin' 'round pissin' off the whole fucking worlds.

Get some sense, Sheeple!

[Toolie]

This is big brother dancing to keep your attention away from things that matter.

Quoted for truth.

Listen, how many "issues" does this curent government bring up, that the media sensationalizes, and that Americans end up voting on which are absolutely irrelevant in comparison to the huge gaping problems that we have or have caused and aren't doing anything to fix?

Hundreds of billions of dollars war and thousands of deaths? Let's rile middle America up with the idea of two dudes getting married.

Massive corruption and government at all levels and parties in big business' pocket? Uh... let's see... how about we rile everyone up with Mexicans!

Secret illegal government programs and scandalous administrative decisions to reveal secret agents' identities over a poltical vendetta? Flag burning, propose a bill for that.

More worry about the complete failure of now two wars and an unwinnable "war on terror"? Raise the terror alert system just in time for Christmas.

The revamped Medicare is worthless and social security is crumbling apart, along with what's left of the economy for those of us not in the top 1% income bracket? Give it time, they'll talk about Terry Schiavo, abortion, assisted suicide, and probably more about gays.


The Bush administration reminds me of that group of asshole frat guys at a party. Because they're popular to a majority of ignorant people, they can say whatever to get out of something, and make the other guy look like an idiot, regardless if they're right or not. Congratulations other guy, you just got your shit beat by an asshole frat douche.