Illegal Immigrants

[Monica]

After the massive protests sparked by anger and outrage, the question 'what's next?' looms large.

http://cbs13.com/national/local_story_091143519.html

I'm just wondering what everyone's opinions are on this issue. I am for the most part conservative, and for what I don't agree with conservatives on it's usually middle or leaning to the right in a way. (Dunno why but that's how I am lol, not a fanatic conservative, but NOT liberal)

Anyway, the conservative in me says "They're illegal and criminals and don't pay taxes so they should be deported. The other half says "I don't really care but they should at least learn English and not expect people to learn Spanish when THEY snuck into OUR country, that's backwards!" So I suppose the second half wins this one, if they come here, learn English.

[goKi]

That's one of the first things that i noticed when i came to the USA. So much is written in Spanish, even the ATM gives you an option to select Spanish. Down here, EVERYTHING is in English, except on odd occasion (say, a foreign store), and in Asian districts in large cities. It's near on impossible to live in Australia without a good understanding of English.

[MacWeirdo42]

I'm also torn on the issue, but in a different way. On the one hand, there wouldn't be any illegal immigrants if businesses wouldn't hire them. Very simple - no jobs = no immigrants. Therefore, if you want to blame anyone for the problem, blame the people who look the other way in hiring them.

On the other hand, though, the simple fact remains that being illegal immigrants, they have no rights. No right to minimum wage, no right to safe working conditions, no right to health care... And they're one of the largest groups that are the targets of crimes, including robbery and murder, simply because an illegal immigrant is FAR less likely to report a crime (for fear that they'll be found out and deported if they do).

As for the English thing, living in basically a bilingual town (McAllen is right on the border), it doesn't bother me as much. If we want to make it an issue, we should make English the official language, but as we don't have one, I don't see how it's something to complain about.

[Monica]

I'm also torn on the issue, but in a different way. On the one hand, there wouldn't be any illegal immigrants if businesses wouldn't hire them. Very simple - no jobs = no immigrants. Therefore, if you want to blame anyone for the problem, blame the people who look the other way in hiring them.

On the other hand, though, the simple fact remains that being illegal immigrants, they have no rights. No right to minimum wage, no right to safe working conditions, no right to health care... And they're one of the largest groups that are the targets of crimes, including robbery and murder, simply because an illegal immigrant is FAR less likely to report a crime (for fear that they'll be found out and deported if they do).

As for the English thing, living in basically a bilingual town (McAllen is right on the border), it doesn't bother me as much. If we want to make it an issue, we should make English the official language, but as we don't have one, I don't see how it's something to complain about.

I know, but I wouldn't expect to go to Japan or France or Somewhere where I know what the majority language is and expect them to incorperate English into their lives, it just doesn't make sense and would just cause trouble and confusion. I would learn as much of their language as possible, official or not.

[Rainman]

That's one of the first things that i noticed when i came to the USA. So much is written in Spanish, even the ATM gives you an option to select Spanish. Down here, EVERYTHING is in English, except on odd occasion (say, a foreign store), and in Asian districts in large cities. It's near on impossible to live in Australia without a good understanding of English.
Well, that's because Australia is a basically an island to itself. We have a lot of spanish speaking countries to the south.

I agree that they should learn English, but that's not always so simple and in the mean time they need to be able to function.

I don't really have any set opinion on immigration. We are an immigrant nation so I don't think we should totally shut ourselves off.

[Dart Zaidyer]

You know the only people who are protesting a crack-down on illegal immigrants?

Illegal immigrants.

[Beldaran]

They seem to feel no pressure to learn english. I feel an equal lack of pressure to know Spanish. The only time I will have a problem with it is if they aren't required to learn english be americans are required to learn spanish. Fuck that.

Also, business owners who hire an illegal immigrant should lose their business and have all the money donated to charity.

[goKi]

Well, that's because Australia is a basically an island to itself. We have a lot of spanish speaking countries to the south.

I agree that they should learn English, but that's not always so simple and in the mean time they need to be able to function.

I don't really have any set opinion on immigration. We are an immigrant nation so I don't think we should totally shut ourselves off.

Let me see if i can find a percentage of Australian residents who were born in Asia.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/as.html

There we go, scroll down. It's a little dated (i think it was 7% in about 1997, apparantely, predictions say that by 2020, 1/4 of Australian residents will be of Asian descent.)

For comparison, 12% of US citizens are Mexican. Given that doesn't include the illegal immigrants. Not a huge difference in percentage, but we don't feel the need to adapt our way of life to suit theirs.

[Beldaran]

Also, unlike mexicans, Asians don't complain that an entire nation won't learn their language just to accomodate their unwillingness to put effort into integrating into a new culture.

[slothman]

Since English is the defacto language I would say that any immigrants, legal or not, should learn it.

I would say to throw them out, more jobs for legal people, but I am also for the original US way of letting all in.
Or I don't know.

Of course in either case employers should get fined/jailed for giving them jobs.

[AlexMax]

Also, business owners who hire an illegal immigrant should lose their business and have all the money donated to charity.

What about businesses who own sweatshops overseas and pay less than a can of pepsi for their labor? Because, you know, a LOT of businesses do that.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

What about businesses who own sweatshops overseas and pay less than a can of pepsi for their labor? Because, you know, a LOT of businesses do that.

Their American branches should be shut down and they should pay a fee proportional to their domestic sales. I'd be happy with that.

Illegal immigrants are just that: illegal. They broke our laws coming here, and like anyone on our soil, should be punished accordingly. The problem is, there are apparently 20 million of them, and that's no easy task. Deporting them would be very, very difficult, and could take years, not to mention lots and lots of money and manpower. Granting them amnesty would mean an immediate boost to our population, and might well wreak havoc on all sorts of census related things, like taxes, school funding, welfare, etc.

The issue is highly political, and that's why it's such a big deal. Any way you act on it, it's unpopular with millions of people, many of whom either make the country function or are registered voters. I've got nothing against immigrants, and heck, I am Mexican by blood, but sneaking into a country is illegal, and just because lots of people do it, doesn't mean it's not.

[Lilith]

The problem is they're making a racial issue out of it instead of an economic one. People are saying "um, you're ILLEGAL, that's why you're breaking the law" and they're saying "omfg U HATE ME BECAUSE I'M MEXICCAAAAN".

[Beldaran]

The problem is they're making a racial issue out of it instead of an economic one. People are saying "um, you're ILLEGAL, that's why you're breaking the law" and they're saying "omfg U HATE ME BECAUSE I'M MEXICCAAAAN".

Precisely. The reason I dislike illegal immigrants is not because they are [insert race]. It's because they move here, don't learn the language, fark up the economy, cause rampant crime, and build communities in which everyone has 29853 kids and no education. Then they blame me for it because I'm white.

[Darth Marsden]

We focused on the illegal immigrant problem for a month or two here over the pond a year or so ago. Quite frankly, I don't mind, as long as they learn to speak good English, avoid breaking the law and (if they work in a corner shop) don't charge over 60 pence for a can of Coke. Well, that's how I felt when I was at Univeristy... We don't have many foreign people living where I am. The only ones I can think of are the guys who run that yummy pizza/chicken takeaway down the road, and they're pretty nice.

[granite]

Oh, this is great. Finally I get my chance to be heard.
I live in Lake Tahoe, California
Starting about 20 yrs ago, the hispanics started comming here for work.
At first there were just a few.
People here started hiring them for labor work.
Since then they just kept comming

I am a stone mason, and naturally they gravitated towards my kind of work.
Now all the contractors hire them , and teach them the trade.
And now the contractors are complaining that they cant make money anymore.
It's because the Hispanics became skilled labor, and now there are crews of them, working under the table, doing the same thing I do, and they work for less money than i will.
So they have driven the price of masonry way down, and now it's hard to compete with them.
They have been taking work that I used to get.

Now if I want to work for a contractor, I have to work with the Hispanics.
Which means I have to listen to their music all day, and wonder what they are talking about, The days are gone, when every job I worked on listened to rock and roll, now, every job site is all spanish, all the time.
They force their way of life on me, I dont want to be mexican,
and I dont want to listen to their music.
Mark my words, these people are not stupid, soon they will become better skilled, some are becomming educated, others are getting into politics.
So the argument that they only take labor jobs is bs.
Soon they will be taking your job too.
Also there is a matter of respect, many of them have no respect for us white folk.
They come here and litter my beautiful mountains with garbage.
I see them throwing their garbage out of their cars while driving.
Also, my 9yr old daughter was going to a school here where she was the minority.
The school was teaching half the day in spanish, the other half in english, which I had a real problem with.
Then the school informs me that they want to start a class that was 100% spanish all the time, and asked if I wanted my daughter to be in the class.
But the worse thing about it was that most of the Hispanic men I have met around here have no respect for women.
They teach their kids the same.
So my daughter would be in school and the hispanic boys would say all these discusting and nasty things to her, alot of it was sexual harassment.
So I had to take my daughter out of the school and send her to a school that was predominately white, and things were alot better for her.

Another problem I have is when I take my girlfriend out to dinner etc.. I will be with her , and its obvious she is with me, I have had the mexican men make rude gestures to her when I wasnt looking, then when I look, they turn their head as if nothing was going on. This has happened several times, but my girlfriend wont tell me when its happening because she is afraid of what might happen.
Well i will tell you whats going to happen, I will probably go to jail for assault with intent to kill.

Pretty soon I will have to move from here, I will go to northern Idaho, to get away from them, eventually I plan to move to Mexico, because they will all be living here.

I'm sure many of you will think I'm a racist, and i dont care, they are taking over my way of life, taking money out of my pocket, treating my women like crud, littering my countryside. I want them out before they ruin my country.

I think that right now, this is THE most important topic in the forums.
Think about this, soon our govenment will decide on this issue, what they decide will effect all our lives from now on.
If they decide to allow these illegal aliens, to become citizens, then how likely will it become easier for them to bring the rest of their family here?
They will all have the right to apply for welfare, food stamps, etc.
They WILL take jobs away from the rest of us sooner or later,
It all boils down to competition, if you dont mind competing with them
then go ahead and let them in.
Think about how it will effect your children, all those extra people to compete with, as if it's not hard enough already.

It's not about racism, its about competition!
We need to take a stand against it, before it's too late.

[Monica]

SNIPPED, on request of Granite.

I understand what you're talking about, I have the same problem in my town with uneducated black people. Just replace all of your instances of Mexican/Spanish with Black/Black History and you've just described my school and my town. I just mentioned this to say no I don't think you're a racist...

[Darth Marsden]

Man, that sucks ass. I totally sympathise. You're right, there's not an awful lot you can do about it. All I can say is... They Took Your Job! (http://www.southparkstuff.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=13&id=143&Itemid=635)

(I feel such a nerd posting that, but trust me, it'll make you smile)

[copsgotguns]

First of all, if you are not of native american descent this is not "YOUR" country. your family immigrated here just like any other family at one point. i dont recall reading that when christopher colombus came here he was greeted by blonde haired blue eyed people.

People who are for or against immigration reform both have valid points but we cant just deport every single illegal immigrant or continue to let them come over illegally. Is anyone raising the question as to WHY theyre are willing to come here, leaving everything behind from their native country, risking their life crossing over, working for meager wages and usually live in poverty. dont you think the their living conditions could have been worse in their own country.

Instead of saying dont let illegal immigrants come here, we should be saying what could be done in their own countries so they wouldnt have to come here.


also i would like to say that i am a hispanic. my grandparents immigrated here, became citizens, learned a substancial amount of english [though with heavy accents] and worked hard until they were both 65. im the first member of my family to attend college. my family was given an oppurtunity to make a life for themselves here. other should have the same oppurtunity whether they come illegally or not in my opinion.

i dont think it would be right for it to be a FELONY for being an illegal alien or helping one.
and regarding comments made by granite.. i find it highly racist when people refer to other races with words like 'THEIR', 'THOSE PEOPLE', 'THEM'. i dont know in what context you were using the words in, but thats how i took it.

[Beldaran]

First of all, if you are not of native american descent this is not "YOUR" country.

It is too our country. We're legal citizens of a government by the people and for the people. We vote, we elect representatives, we are certainly allowed to have an opinion about OUR country.


we should be saying what could be done in their own countries so they wouldnt have to come here.

We should tie our hands with regards to immigration and wait for Mexico to fix its economy? I don't think so. We should be talking about solutions to the problem, rather than having a little hippy circle jerk about how we need to all get along. Illegal immigrants come here and cause problems. If they came here and made things better, it wouldn't be a problem. We need to send them home and keep them from coming back unless they are citizens.

[copsgotguns]

We need to send them home

do you think they even have homes to go back to?

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

True enough, to a point, Cops, but we most of us, as far as I know, aren't registered to vote in other countries. Besides, if start telling other countries what to do all the time, foreigners hate us because we're imperialist pigs, etc. There's no magic bullet for this problem. No easy solution, no easy fix.

The harsh reality is, this world is just not as friendly as it used to be, and an open door policy in regards to immigration just isn't feasible. As much as some people would like to think, America just can't police the entire world. Beefing up security at our borders, keeping people out, these things might not be kind or politically correct, but it's the easiest blanket solution to safeguard our country. The safer we want to be, the more freedom we're going to have to sacrifice, both within our borders and without.


--------

You reposted before I did. Blast!

Yes, they DO have homes to go back to, but it all depends on what you consider a home. We're used to living in good quality homes on our own property here. In poorer countries, people are used to less. Granted, some people are used to a lot less, but not everyone in mexico is as bad off as you think.

[granite]

Your right, some of the things I said were racist.
Not all the hispanics do the aweful things I described.
I realize they are individuals

I do happen to be part Cherokee, but not enough to use it as an excuse.

History will tell you that mass immigration, has always caused people to get angry.

Call it racism if you want, but to be honest, as a whole, the hispanic immigrants have done nothing for me except make my life harder.

The mass immigrations you are referring to happened long ago, there was alot more room for them way back then.

We don't have room here to handle Mexico's overpopulation problem.

And your saying that I should help Mexico, so that they dont have to come here?
Crap, either way I have to pay for their problems.
:scared: :confused: :shakeno:

[copsgotguns]

True enough, to a point, Cops, but we most of us, as far as I know, aren't registered to vote in other countries. Besides, if start telling other countries what to do all the time, foreigners hate us because we're imperialist pigs, etc. There's no magic bullet for this problem. No easy solution, no easy fix.

The harsh reality is, this world is just not as friendly as it used to be, and an open door policy in regards to immigration just isn't feasible. As much as some people would like to think, America just can't police the entire world. Beefing up security at our borders, keeping people out, these things might not be kind or politically correct, but it's the easiest blanket solution to safeguard our country. The safer we want to be, the more freedom we're going to have to sacrifice, both within our borders and without.

I guess im too idealistic. Though i dont like it, what youre saying is probably the most logical solution for now. Though i dont know how they are going to keep out immigrants who are coming in the millions. and to get off topic for a second no one is looking at how fast the human population is growing. but illegal immigration and overpopulation would be the least of our worries, with global warming and all.

[granite]

First of all, if you are not of native american descent this is not "YOUR" country. your family immigrated here just like any other family at one point. i dont recall reading that when christopher colombus came here he was greeted by blonde haired blue eyed people.

People who are for or against immigration reform both have valid points but we cant just deport every single illegal immigrant or continue to let them come over illegally. Is anyone raising the question as to WHY theyre are willing to come here, leaving everything behind from their native country, risking their life crossing over, working for meager wages and usually live in poverty. dont you think the their living conditions could have been worse in their own country.

Instead of saying dont let illegal immigrants come here, we should be saying what could be done in their own countries so they wouldnt have to come here.


also i would like to say that i am a hispanic. my grandparents immigrated here, became citizens, learned a substancial amount of english [though with heavy accents] and worked hard until they were both 65. im the first member of my family to attend college. my family was given an oppurtunity to make a life for themselves here. other should have the same oppurtunity whether they come illegally or not in my opinion.

i dont think it would be right for it to be a FELONY for being an illegal alien or helping one.
and regarding comments made by granite.. i find it highly racist when people refer to other races with words like 'THEIR', 'THOSE PEOPLE', 'THEM'. i dont know in what context you were using the words in, but thats how i took it.

I have nothing against you personally, but what your saying is that since your family immigrated here from Mexico
now you want to make it easier for more mexican immigrants to follow.

Thanks for helping make my point!

[copsgotguns]

I have nothing against you personally, but what your saying is that since your family immigrated here from Mexico
now you want to make it easier for more mexican immigrants to follow.

Thanks for helping make my point!

woops. probably should have stated..im from the dominican republic.

and i didnt say i wanted to make it easier, im saying it shouldnt be a felony to be one or to help one.

[{DSG}DarkRaven]

That's the thing, Cops. You're only thinking in regards to the current issue. Illegal immigration is MUCH bigger than the southwest border. Mexican immigration is easy to pass off because so many people do it, and quite honestly, most of them are just looking for a better quality of life. The real problem stems from economic issues, drug trafficing, terrorism, black market weapons and organs, things like that. People get hung up on a hot button issue like this and fail to see the whole. It's not immigration that's a problem, it's not even illegal immigration that's so bad. It's rampant illegal immigration, and with a higher number of immigrants, you get a higher number of bad apples.

[Lilith]

First of all, if you are not of native american descent this is not "YOUR" country. your family immigrated here just like any other family at one point. i dont recall reading that when christopher colombus came here he was greeted by blonde haired blue eyed people.

People who are for or against immigration reform both have valid points but we cant just deport every single illegal immigrant or continue to let them come over illegally. Is anyone raising the question as to WHY theyre are willing to come here, leaving everything behind from their native country, risking their life crossing over, working for meager wages and usually live in poverty. dont you think the their living conditions could have been worse in their own country.

Instead of saying dont let illegal immigrants come here, we should be saying what could be done in their own countries so they wouldnt have to come here.


also i would like to say that i am a hispanic. my grandparents immigrated here, became citizens, learned a substancial amount of english [though with heavy accents] and worked hard until they were both 65. im the first member of my family to attend college. my family was given an oppurtunity to make a life for themselves here. other should have the same oppurtunity whether they come illegally or not in my opinion.

i dont think it would be right for it to be a FELONY for being an illegal alien or helping one.
and regarding comments made by granite.. i find it highly racist when people refer to other races with words like 'THEIR', 'THOSE PEOPLE', 'THEM'. i dont know in what context you were using the words in, but thats how i took it.

I'm aware Europeans are "foreign" here as well...most people are, but that doesn't change the current system of government. If we magically decided to give the government back to the Native Americans tommorow, would be "right"? Possibly. Would it create mass chaos and fuck up the entire nation for an indefinate amount of time? Yes.

I'm Italian, and my family was the "mexicans" of their generation when they immigrated, but they were assimilated because they WANTED to learn how to be American, and BE American. We assimilated culturally and became a part of society. When you're dealing with a minority immigrant that is seperatist this usually isn't the case. Especially in a culture that is tripping over itself to be PC and give special treatment. If you give a group like that special/different treatment for a long time, it hinders them assimilating into normal society in many cases.

And yes, MEXICO should be evaluating their own fucked up government that causes so much of their population to live terribly and then flee. Not America. We can't always be Team America: World Police.

We're dealing with the current problem in our nation of an impoverished country's population pouring into ours and recieving government services while not paying government taxes. That is the issue currently. If any nation has a ton of immigrants who would like to come in legally and work, that's great. I'd prefer they at least be documented so we can be sure they're free of foreign diseases.

[granite]

Here where I live there are several places where the Illegal's gather to wait for someone to drive up and hire them.

I dont understand why this is allowed to happen.

You would think that since the are involved with illegal activity, I should be able to call the sheriff, have them arrested.
But no, the sheriff will say that it is an INS problem. And there is nothing they can do.

Gives me an idea, I am going to call INS and complain about it.
I have even thought about going to these places with a video camera, to catch it on tape.

But I figured if I did that, I would become a target , and probably end up dead.

I have been checking into the organization called the Minute Men. But they only patrol th border.

I need help HERE, there must be a way I can influence the law to do their job.

If I witness any other crime, I can call the cops, and they are obligated to investigate.

Sombody please tell me what I can do about it here, in northern California.:confused: :mad: :scared: :(

[Master Ghaleon]

The apartment full of mexicans next to me is stuffed more then a bean burrito. We dont want anymore illegal immigrants to enter the United States. If the United States wants to change the law from a civil violation to a felony, then im all for it.

[AlexMax]

Precisely. The reason I dislike illegal immigrants is not because they are [insert race]. It's because they move here, don't learn the language, fark up the economy......

Hooooooooooold the phone here. How do illegal immigrants "fark up the economy"?


I am a stone mason, and naturally they gravitated towards my kind of work.
Now all the contractors hire them , and teach them the trade.
And now the contractors are complaining that they cant make money anymore.
It's because the Hispanics became skilled labor, and now there are crews of them, working under the table, doing the same thing I do, and they work for less money than i will.
So they have driven the price of masonry way down, and now it's hard to compete with them.
They have been taking work that I used to get.

This is what I think you guys are talking about.

Sorry man, but quite simply, if business are having to pay 'under the table' less then what they pay you, then your job wasn't worth what you were being paid in the first place.

There is an equilibrium wage that a company values your work at. It's not a range, it's a wage which is based upon what your work is worth and how much employing you is costing the company. It does not make sense for the company to overpay you, why overpay you when your not worth that much to the company. But here's the crux, why would the company underpay you? It's not in their best interest to do so, because they know that if you are being underpaid, then all a rival has to do is offer a job with pay that is what you're worth, you would quit your origional job, and your origional employer would be left with fewer and/or workers who are worth the less amount of money they are paying, thus delivering a product that is inferior, and being stuck with labor that is worth this...lesser...amount.

Unions are TERRIBLE because of this. What a union will do is force a contract with businesses that demands pay that is higher than what the business was previously paying them, equilibrium wage. Therefore, each worker's worth is worth LESS than the amount that it costs for the company to employ them, so they end up cutting jobs. Or, in the case of "no layoffs", are simply run out of business by overseas competition who don't have such silly restrictions. The minimum wage is almost as bad, but face it, when was the last time you held a job when you were paid minimum wage and nothing more. Hell, even flipping burgers is around 7 bucks an hour where I live.

Basic economics.

[Saffith]

It does not make sense for the company to overpay you, why overpay you when your not worth that much to the company. But here's the crux, why would the company underpay you? It's not in their best interest to do so, because they know that if you are being underpaid, then all a rival has to do is offer a job with pay that is what you're worth, you would quit your origional job, and your origional employer would be left with fewer and/or workers who are worth the less amount of money they are paying, thus delivering a product that is inferior, and being stuck with labor that is worth this...lesser...amount.For the same reason they wouldn't overpay you. The less they pay, the more money for them.
The thing is, they can underpay illegal immigrants. If they complain about it or get a better-paying job with a competitor, the company can just inform the authorities that they're here illegally, and they're gone. They have to hire someone else then, but it really doesn't come up often enough for that to be a big deal.
It is true that the cheaper illegal workers may do inferior work, but if it's bad enough that they would ultimately cost the company even more money, they can be fired just like any other employees.


The minimum wage is almost as bad, but face it, when was the last time you held a job when you were paid minimum wage and nothing more. Hell, even flipping burgers is around 7 bucks an hour where I live.I don't know where you live, but that may well actually be minimum wage. http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

[ZTC]

I say boot 'em out.

You know what would have been funny? If all the illegals that were protesting were arrested and deported at that time.

[granite]

Hooooooooooold the phone here. How do illegal immigrants "fark up the economy"?



This is what I think you guys are talking about.

Sorry man, but quite simply, if business are having to pay 'under the table' less then what they pay you, then your job wasn't worth what you were being paid in the first place.

There is an equilibrium wage that a company values your work at. It's not a range, it's a wage which is based upon what your work is worth and how much employing you is costing the company. It does not make sense for the company to overpay you, why overpay you when your not worth that much to the company. But here's the crux, why would the company underpay you? It's not in their best interest to do so, because they know that if you are being underpaid, then all a rival has to do is offer a job with pay that is what you're worth, you would quit your origional job, and your origional employer would be left with fewer and/or workers who are worth the less amount of money they are paying, thus delivering a product that is inferior, and being stuck with labor that is worth this...lesser...amount.

Unions are TERRIBLE because of this. What a union will do is force a contract with businesses that demands pay that is higher than what the business was previously paying them, equilibrium wage. Therefore, each worker's worth is worth LESS than the amount that it costs for the company to employ them, so they end up cutting jobs. Or, in the case of "no layoffs", are simply run out of business by overseas competition who don't have such silly restrictions. The minimum wage is almost as bad, but face it, when was the last time you held a job when you were paid minimum wage and nothing more. Hell, even flipping burgers is around 7 bucks an hour where I live.

Basic economics.

Actually, what I meant was that there are crews of mexican masons that are operating as if they are contractors, they bid jobs without a contractors license.

The rich people that hire them love it, because they save money.
Also, I have a stone supply company that used to do quite well, until the mexicans found out. Now I am competing with some of them, they lowered their prices, and took over.
For example, 2yrs ago I was selling granite for $375./per ton
Now the price is around $250.-$275./ per ton.
But the cost of getting the rock has risen substantially (fuel prices) etc..

I know what your thinking, I should just turn them in, but its not that simple, If I do that I will make enemies with the mexicans, and the people that hire them.

People here tend to look the other way.
And they dont like people like me causing trouble.

[Glitch]

This shouldn't even be a fucking debate.

Illegal Immigrants ARE ILLEGAL. Deport their asses back to where they fucking came from.

On a side note, lets go ahead and deport all mexicans, legal and illegal ones.

[Lilith]

I say boot 'em out.

You know what would have been funny? If all the illegals that were protesting were arrested and deported at that time.

That would have been funny if you like mass rioting, injury and death, police brutality, damaged property, civilian chaos and a curfew.

ie, we're not riding ourselves of the current population anytime soon. that's what the protests were about...to demonstrate how much power it would take to get their force out of the country. The only thing we can do is restrict access to those coming in.

Although the people we restrict can be pretty ridiculous, which is probably why there are so many illegals. Lately we've restricted hundreds of professors and scholars as well as entertainment groups. Pretty ghey.

[copsgotguns]

illegal immigrants are wrong and should be deported because they broke the law and came here illegally? simple.

so everyone who jaywalks across the street to hug their mom should is wrong because they broke the law.

..ok bad analogy, but the point is, this issue is not as simple as black and white. its full of gray. am i making any sense?

[firebug]

I say we just take over Mexico. They want to be here anyways, right? Well, make it America, force them to live under our laws and pay our taxes. Hell, we'd have a whole bunch of people who are HAPPY to work for minimum wage, because it's more than they've ever been offered. The energy expenditure would be less than trying to 'fix the problem'.
The illegal immigrants are not going to stop finding ways in here. So instead of spending more and more money on trying to stop something that can't be stopped, let's find a way to profit off of these people.

[granite]

I'm for using our military to build , and defend, a wall , that extends along the entire border.. Make it boot camp, use it for training as well.

[MottZilla]

Well you could just use the military to deport their asses. People may have the balls to stand up against the police, but few will try to take on entire armored divisions that will kill them if they attack them. But they're all busy defending Iraq right now so I guess it'll have to wait. ;p

AlexMax, Unions aren't all bad. They protect their workers from big companies that could just fire you because they felt like it, and you couldn't do anything (unless maybe if you're any race but white, or a female). And you know you get what you pay for when you use non-union labor. You get people who don't know what the fuck they are doing, and shit goes wrong.

[copsgotguns]

im reminded of the south park episode where immigrants from the future come back in time..

all the whining workers complaining that 'they took our jobs'



solution a) jump in a big gay sex orgy pile so that there wouldnt be a future so people wouldnt come back in time.

or

solution b) make it a better world now so in the future there would be no need to came back in time.





i keep hearing SOLUTION A from you guys..

[AlexMax]

AlexMax, Unions aren't all bad. They protect their workers from big companies that could just fire you because they felt like it, and you couldn't do anything (unless maybe if you're any race but white, or a female). And you know you get what you pay for when you use non-union labor. You get people who don't know what the fuck they are doing, and shit goes wrong.

On your first point, so what? You work at their company, you play by their rules, if you don't like it, quit.

And it's insulting to think that you think that there is no difference in quality between Union Labor workers versus non-Union Labor workers. If anything, the labor union workers are not as hard working in comparison to what they're being paid, since the company deems their job worth X amount, and the labor workers want more.

Also, lots of people in this thread showed some awesome examples of xenophobic faggotry. Ever wonder why Mexicans don't like you? Because of your shitty and condescending attitude towards them. And...maybe because of their xenophobic attitude towards, us, but don't act like it gives you an excuse to act like a faggot.

[MottZilla]

Uh, I was saying there IS a difference, a huge difference. Union better than Non-Union.

It's not all about "working hard" you know. It's about getting the job done and done right. Good Unions (not all are) have trained their workers, and they do the best job you're gonna get. Scabs (non-union) work for less but you get what you pay for because they are not near as trained plus there really is no telling what they'll do cause they are just some hoosher that could have started yesterday. I've heard so many stories of idiots from cable companies doing things which end in the house burning down or someone getting fried.

You know you shouldn't be all, omg, the company, the company, the company. Fuck the company. When you say the company, you mean rich do-nothings at the top. What about us normal people that have to work for a living?

I don't like Mexicans that A. Act mexican, and B. actually crossed the border from mexico illegally. I couldn't care less if they actually belong here. And really the ones that are here can stay so long as they get their fucking papers, pay taxes, learn ENGLISH, etc.

And we're americans AlexMax, that alone entitles us to act however we want.

[Shoelace]

I don't like Mexicans that A. Act mexican, and B. actually crossed the border from mexico illegally. I couldn't care less if they actually belong here. And really the ones that are here can stay so long as they get their fucking papers, pay taxes, learn ENGLISH, etc.


Act Mexican? So you are telling me that that you can't act your own race? I am Mexican and I got really really offended on what you said. Hopefully that just came out wrong. Because I am going to keep acting Mexican.

I live not even a mile from the border. Most of my friends and some of my family were illegal immigrants. Most of them came here because in USA you can have a better life for their familys. And yes, I agree they need to learn English, pay taxes, etc. However, sometimes they are too poor to do so. I wish there was an easier way, but I don't know.


On a side note, lets go ahead and deport all mexicans, legal and illegal ones.


That was so racist. I am not even going to say anything because I think I would be banned.

[MottZilla]

Shoelace, I'm talking "act mexican" as in mexican citizen. I don't mean that mexican as a race/people are any less than anything else. I'm just saying that when people from mexico come here they need to get with the program, like learning english and obeying our laws.

I agree wiith you about the deporting all mexicans, it's just stupid. Deporting people whom are here illegally would be good. However in some cases with cooperation and effort on the illegal person, they should be allowed to stay. Efforts such as speaking fluent english, obeying the laws, paying their taxes.

[granite]

Quote:I'm Italian, and my family was the "mexicans" of their generation when they immigrated, but they were assimilated because they WANTED to learn how to be American, and BE American. We assimilated culturally and became a part of society. When you're dealing with a minority immigrant that is seperatist this usually isn't the case. Especially in a culture that is tripping over itself to be PC and give special treatment. If you give a group like that special/different treatment for a long time, it hinders them assimilating into normal society in many cases.
End Quote;

I totally agree with this, The mexican immigrants are seperatist.

Many of them have mexican flags etc.. on their cars, which is fine really, but I never see the the US flag on their car.

They dont want to be Americans, they want to bring Mexico here.

I couldn't imaging myself going to a forign country, and treating the citizens there with the disrespect i have felt from many of the mexican immigrants.

One time my wife and kids went to a ski resort, They went back to our pickup to eat lunch in the parking lot. Next to our truck was a mexican family also eating lunch.
Anyway my family finished lunch first, and left to ski some more, at the end of the day my wife was really pissed off to find they put their fucking garbage into the back of our truck!!
I'm getting pissed just thinking about it.

I'm not saying all mexicans do this shit
But how many times do I have to be disrespected by them, before I start to feel the prejudgism for them?

I have been working alongside mexicans for 20 yrs.
I can't tell you how many times they brag about how easy it is for them to get forged papers, using some innocent Americans social security number.
They think it's a big fuckin joke

And almost every mexican man i talk to brags about having a wife and kids in Mexico, and also having women here, at the same time, and many of them even have 2 sets of kids, 1 set living in each country.
Ya I've talked to many that brag this way
I get pissed, I tell them they are assholes.
I know alot of what I'm saying is racist,
but how much of this shit does a man have to take before he is fed up?

On the flipside of the coin, I do have friends that are Mexican Immigrants, many of them are really nice people.
2 of them saved my life when the scaffolding I was under started to collapse, I couldnt get out because my pantleg was caught on a piece of rebar.
The scaffold was 5 jacks high, loaded with 3-4 tons of rock
Those guy's caught the scaffold and pushed it back up so someone could put a brace on it.

I guess I'm mostly angry because there are so many comming, way too many, and everyday I see new ones here.
They just dont stop comming.

Hell, Ive had mexicans tell me they wish the mexicans would stop comming here, even they think there are too many here, because they end up competing for jobs too.

[mikeron]

Step 1: Import Iraqis, and have them line the border with IEDs

Step 2: Conduct raids to deport one million illegals (as a start)

Step 3: Enforce existing labor laws

Step 4: Impose tremendous taxes and tarriffs on WalMart

Step 5: Kill all sitting members of Congress

[copsgotguns]

Step 5: Kill all sitting members of Congress

agreed on that one.

[granite]

Our government needs to be overthrown,
taken back by the people, to be used for the people.
To get rid of government waste
and special interest.

Personally, I am a fan of Ross Perot
he is THE MAN

[copsgotguns]

this all stems from peoples xenophobia.

[MacWeirdo42]

F***in' eh...

I swear to God, I agree with copsgotguns on this one. Being from McAllen, f***in' Texas, population 90% f***in' Mexican, I can honestly say that I don't give an f***in' s**t about illegal immigrants, other than the fact that they get completely f***ed over as a result of the fact that they aren't legal citizens. I seriously wish they would become legal, simply because they don't deserve the s**t they get for the effort they put into making a new life for themselves. Oh God, wait, no, because that's just going to incur the wrath of those who say they don't put nearly enough effort into it. Why don't you try to adopt an entirely new f***in' culture/language and seeing how easy it is, before you go around blaming other people for their lack of effort... Honestly....

The one thing that really pisses me off about this thread, is the comment that its Mexico's responsibility, not ours. Like, yeah, I agree, I wish Mexico were better, too, but that ain't gonna happen, so what the f*** are we gonna do in the meantime? Pass the blame? That doesn't change the fact that there are real people out there with real f***in' problems, and saying that it's not our responsibility doesn't change that. Oh, wait, I'm a bleeding heart liberal, so my opinion doesn't count, right? We all deal with the same guilt, though, we just do it in different ways. Woop de doo, so I choose to actually take some sort of responsibility for it, as opposed to saying that I have nothing to do with the situation... That makes me a horrible person, right?

[mikeron]

this all stems from peoples xenophobia.Xenophobia? Illegals come here illegally, don't pay taxes, use up public resources (which are funded by tax dollars), and do jobs for wages and livings standards below those dictated by law (i.e. they undercut existing labor). But, yeah, the real issue is racism. :rolleyes:

[granite]

Xenophobia? Illegals come here illegally, don't pay taxes, use up public resources (which are funded by tax dollars), and do jobs for wages and livings standards below those dictated by law (i.e. they undercut existing labor). But, yeah, the real issue is racism. :rolleyes:

It is not racism
I dont automatically hate mexicans just because they are mexican.

It's about protecting my home, my job, and my kids, from this invasion of a group of people that do not want to be Americans.
They want to be mexicans, they are here to take without asking
And send all their spoils back to mexico.

[Ich]

I am thoroughly surprised nobody posted the link to Maddox yet...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

Also worth checking is the U.S. Libertarian Party's page on the issue (http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml) if you're into that kind of thing.

[mikeron]

Also worth checking is the U.S. Libertarian Party's page on the issue (http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml) if you're into that kind of thing.Unfortunately, that doesn't even address illegal imigration. The Libertarian platform states elsewhere that they support full amnesty, with no discussion of the impact that might have.

However, they also say that they oppose all forms of welfare, which is why I briefly considered joining the Libertarian Party in 2000.

The real problem here is that for the sake of a short-term political victory, Washington is considering amnesty by itself. I can't see how this is justifiable.

It could be that living in San Diego gives me a different idea of priorities.

[copsgotguns]

in case you didnt know farms, construction, meat industry all rely heavily on cheap labor which in majority is provided by illegal immigrants. so MAYBE your taxes would be lower if there were less illegal immigrants "using up YOUR public resources"

...BUT people doing the jobs the illegal immigrants were doing would probably have to have better wages, benefits, etc. .so things would be MORE expensive for us in my opinion.







EDIT: so it may not cost us too much money if we had to pay people in agriculture more for taking over illegal immigrants jobs BUT i forgot to mention; how much do time and money do you think would have to spent to search, seize and deport 11,000,000 illegal immigrants??

[mikeron]

in case you didnt know farms, construction, meat industry all rely heavily on cheap labor which in majority is provided by illegal immigrants. so MAYBE your taxes would be lower if there were less illegal immigrants "using up YOUR public resources"

...BUT people doing the jobs the illegal immigrants were doing would probably have to have better wages, benefits, etc. .so things would be MORE expensive for us in my opinion.The cost of labor in those industries would rise a small amount in comparison to the tax money that would be saved.

Let's use agriculture as an example. If you were to double the wages of farm workers, the average US household would see around a $0.50 rise in their weekly vegetable consumption. Holy shit, I might die.

This is because the cost of labor is a small part of what goes into producing the goods. I think it's around 22% of the cost of produce.

The situation in the meat industry is the same. With construction, it's too complicated to say, but it's far less dependent on the type of labor you are talking about.