Open Source

[Zenphobia]

Any chance of the new edition of Zelda Classic being made open source?

[Link]

Highly unlikely.

[Zenphobia]

Why is it highly unlikely?

Imagine the possibilities!

[djdarkx]

I agree. Highly unliekly for the simple fact that if someone else were to take the project and work on it, they may not do as god a job as the current programmers or other versions would probably be very proprietory about the versions of quests made for it or if a major company that has ties to Nintendo, or if Nintendo themselves got a hold of it...they could finish the program, then charge us to use it. It's simple common sense. Yes, the possibilities could be endless, but you must think of the big picture first.

Also, with it being open source, it would be a WHOLE lot easier to contract a virus onto your PC if someone placed it into the source code. That's my take on it.

djDarkX

[Zenphobia]

The source would only be open for download, you couldn't replace the source on the website that everyone will be using, so your virus paranoia is kind of unfounded.

And a program being made open source does not replace the original developers, it simply lets users tweak the code. With the way copyrights work, Nintendo could not steal it and charge us to use it, since all the code would still be property of the original creators. Besides, Nintendo doesn't seem like that kind of company.

A lot of major game developers make their projects open source so fans can get the most out of the developers' work (Quake, Doom, Tribes).

The first thing I would do if Zelda Classic was open source, is combine it with this open source MMO client (http://www.runuo.com). With some work, we could have a Zelda MMORPG.

[Nimono]

The source would only be open for download, you couldn't replace the source on the website that everyone will be using, so your virus paranoia is kind of unfounded.

And a program being made open source does not replace the original developers, it simply lets users tweak the code. With the way copyrights work, Nintendo could not steal it and charge us to use it, since all the code would still be property of the original creators. Besides, Nintendo doesn't seem like that kind of company.

A lot of major game developers make their projects open source so fans can get the most out of the developers' work (Quake, Doom, Tribes).

The first thing I would do if Zelda Classic was open source, is combine it with this open source MMO client (http://www.runuo.com). With some work, we could have a Zelda MMORPG.
What's open source? I know it has to do with the Source Code (which I understand 0%), but nothing more.

[Zenphobia]

Open Source-"An open source program has its source code distributed allowing programmers to alter and change the original software as much as they like."

Basically, open source means you can see and edit the code that composes a program. It's unlikely that any modification will stray far from the original concept, but the community might come up with some interesting ideas.

[Nimono]

Open Source-"An open source program has its source code distributed allowing programmers to alter and change the original software as much as they like."

Basically, open source means you can see and edit the code that composes a program. It's unlikely that any modification will stray far from the original concept, but the community might come up with some interesting ideas.
Wow.

[Zenphobia]

Why do you say wow?

[Nimono]

Why do you say wow?
Because of this simple reason: That's amazing!

[jman2050]

WIll it go open source? Who knows? I can't really answer the question right now, just know that the possibility is out there.

[Zenphobia]

I strong support the open source movement! :)

[Nicholas Steel]

if its open source someone could make a version thats compatible with all previous versions and thus people would possible use that instead of the original.

[Zenphobia]

if its open source someone could make a version thats compatible with all previous versions and thus people would possible use that instead of the original.

I really doubt anyone would write something to replace the original, it would be more for personal customizations that aren't related to the goals of the original creators.

The original will always be the best at what it's set out to do.

[djdarkx]

it would be more for personal customizations that aren't related to the goals of the original creators.

Alright. Now, with that, what about other people's quests? They either won't work or the custom quests made with that other programmers ZC would be incompatible anyways. So, with that in mind, it probably wouldn't be a good idea. Best thing to do is submit ideas or have other users join the dev team for ZC.

djDarkX

[Zenphobia]

That's actually one of my few complaints, to play a quest one must have ZC. I know this sounds a little weird at first, but it would be easier to distribute quests to people unfamiliar with ZC.

Yeah, it's fun to show off our work to each other, but it would be nice if the quests were a stand alone product of ZC.

[*b*]

I agree. it'd be nice to be able to make, like, a .exe file for individual quests, that you just open and play, but that's probably a ways off

as for the whole open-source thing, DN has stated in the past that ZC will remain closed-source while he's a part of it. I can only speculate as to why, and I don't know if he's changed his mind since then, but, for the time being, it's closed source. be happy you're able to play it at all; that's where I stand

[Rakki]

I agree. it'd be nice to be able to make, like, a .exe file for individual quests, that you just open and play, but that's probably a ways off

as for the whole open-source thing, DN has stated in the past that ZC will remain closed-source while he's a part of it. I can only speculate as to why, and I don't know if he's changed his mind since then, but, for the time being, it's closed source. be happy you're able to play it at all; that's where I stand
I feel two ways about the whole quest .exe thing. It'd be cool to just be able to open a quest through an .exe and then have 3 files for that quest like LoZ, and probably be able to customize the menu, and the title screen and such. Although I'd worry about .exes being able to contain viruses or whatnot, since it's been through people other than the real developer's hands. What I think would work nicely is a program made by the developers that converts .qst files into .exes that use their own title screen, etc. and have their own save files, rather than saving to Zelda.sav. That way, we'd still download .qst files, but we'd convert them to .exes ourselves, if we wanted to.

Also, my guess as to the reason why DN wants to keep it closed-source is the same reason I'd like to keep my own projects closed-source: so nobody can STEAL it. If ZC was open source, someone could take the source code, rewrite some lines, then create a forum for it in some dark corner of the internet, and then people who didn't know any better might show up there and think that THEY created it, and then there could be a big legal dispute if AGN found out about it, and... yeah. Too much of a hassle to worry about someone claiming it as their own.

[koopa]

At the moment there's one official ZC and it's maintained by competent developers, to say the least. In the present form Nintendo accepts it as a fan project and allows it. Further Nintendo knows who to contact - Armageddon Games - should any issues arise.

The name Zelda and anything associated with it is copyright of Nintendo. If ZC went open source then anyone could build their own version with adware, a virus, or start to sell it. All of this could bring negative publicity and, in the worst case, Nintendo withdrawing its approval of ZC. Having it shut down because some people abuse the freedom an open-source ZC would give is the last thing we need. Incidentally I'd imagine AGN would need their approval before open-sourcing it anyway.

Then there is the issue of quests. Anyone can make a quest and password it so that people can play it but not edit it. This is, from reading through past posts, one of the main reasons for keeping ZC closed-source. There's also the large amount of work the developers put into ZC and I understand if they don't want to give it all away for free.

Then there's the issue of the 'relationship' between ZC and AGN. And quite a story it is too, with intrigues and everything. I will say no more on that point than that most of it was before my time here anyway.

I wouldn't chose to open-source it if it was my decision. As long as it is maintained at one place, there's one official ZC, that everone can make quests for and everyone play them with the same program. I doubt if making the source public would really help ZC as such, but that's just my opinion.

Whether the source code could be shown to interested individuals, perhaps under restrictions, that is another matter.

[Zenphobia]

Let me preface this by saying I respect the developers of ZC, and that I certainly wouldn't hold it against them or the ZC community if they choose to keep the program closed source. It is their creation, and they have a right to do as they please. However, I can still make my case and make polite suggestions. :)

The adware or virus complaint is taking the situation a bit far, I mean come on, the people that release viruses want to target a mass audience, and compared to other web communities, ZC is tiny.

If someone takes ZC and starts selling it or abuses it, they are responsible, not the original creators. Really, whats to stop people from selling it now even if its closed source?

Password protection on quests: if someone really wanted to break into a quest and steal content, they would. Thats just how internet security works, where there's a will theres a way.

The quest angle was one I honestly didn't consider, though if the quests could be made it into independent executables, or some file variation (perhaps a ROM type format) the problem of quest compatibility would no longer matter. And honestly, it would be much easier to share our quests with friends.

I think many of you are forgetting why Zelda Classic is great: we are finally able to explore the massive potential of ZC (and Link to the Past for that matter). Look at some of the quests members of the community of created, some bearing little or no resemblance to the original Zelda. Imagine the possibilities: do away with the framed sections of the world, and have the center of the screen be attached to link so when he moves the world is seemless, rather than screen shifts every 5 seconds. We could impliment multiplayer support, imagine romping through a big dungeon with a friend and solving puzzles that are designed for 2 people. Using open source MMO servers, we could make a Zelda style MMO. How cool would that be?

Maybe I'm just a dreamer. It would be cool if the developers did all of this, but it's not fair to demand such things from them, hence me suggesting open source. If anyone is curious about the open source movement, a lot of good has come from it, this is a particular good website for it:

http://opensource.org/index.php

[BFeely]

Unfortunately, the reason is the digital rights management built into the player and quest editor. All DRM technologies rely on a "secret handshake" and opening the source would make it easier to find.

[Zenphobia]

What digital rights would be compromised, exactly?

[Dart Zaidyer]

Let's put engine-related issues aside for a moment, and talk about the most important cog in the success of Open Source ZC... The fans.

Fact: Nintendo fans are a cowardly, superstitious lot with a penchant for laziness and in many cases, a lust for power over others. ZC is currently in a position where it can avoid most of that garbage, yet still, some have tried to foist it upon the project anyway.
The community isn't ready for it. As it stands, most people are convinced that Nintendo will crush you like a bug for even having a fan project at all. Truth is, though, they don't have to: It's the hosts, hosts' lawyers, and average joes who do it for them. In reality, Nintendo officially doesn't care as long as nobody's getting paid.
What happens when you take away the controlling satellite of a closed engine under one fairly benevolent and hard-to-bully roof at AGN? Nobody's going to know what to make of it, and a few will know they only want it for themselves or to be destroyed.
A prominent example is the Gaming Universe debacle: They were full of fan projects, one of which was Open Zelda. Open Zelda *was* Open Source and on it's way to being a decent engine for other uses, too. But before it could spread out much, some joker you might recognize as Daniel Barras got it killed by pretending to be Nintendo and having GU shut down (along with several other fan projects) just to cover his own ass.

It's not so much about the technical side as it is about the community side. And if you've been paying attention for the last six years, you'd understand too.

[Freedom]

jmho...
DN and Jman have been going great guns with Zelda Classic, I don't know why you would even want it open sourced.
What it needs worse than anything right now is dedicated beta testers.

[Squash]

Hi there, long-time lurker here, but this is important enough to warrent posting. I generally am more active in a community that edits the NES and SNES era originals than I am here, but what I have to say is relevant, as we face the same legal issues and the fears behind opening up a suspicious program for the first time (we've been around since the 90s and no, I've never seen an attempt at a virus).

I think all the concerns expressed in this thread are rather silly, and the advantages of open source have been barely touched upon.

I'll first describe how things would be diferent for the average user if ZC was open source, then cover (and refute) the concerns that've been expressed in this thread so far.

If ZC was open source, there'd be two types of modifications people could expect see. The first would be self-contained, designed to work with a single quest. These would be distributed in zips with quests, much like quest files are now. The only difference would be that you run the provided .exe instead of pointing your existing copy of ZC at the new quest.

The other type of modification would be a general modification, designed to help quest developers. These would work like a combination of what I just described and how resources like the tilesets some kind folk release -- someone would release a useful modified copy of the game, someone else would credit them and include that .exe with their quest.

The only downside of this is that it would be difficult to combine two code modifications without coding experience. This could be alleviated if someone were to make the code more modular (I'm assuming it isn't already, just to be safe), and, additionally, would only hamper the ability to use code modifications, not the ability to use the original ZC.

What type of modifications am I talking about? Well, the obvious starting point is in the small stuff. You could add whatever specialized enemy, boss, item, or tile combo you'd like with just a clear mind and some determination (actual coding experience works too, but you don't really need to know what you're doing -- I certainly didn't when I started). Bigger modifications would also be possible -- someone might edit the editor to be more Windows-friendly, or add a major function to the game. This type of work could even be integrated into the next true version of ZC, if the developers enjoyed it.

And now, concerns and refutations:

--People placing viruses in the source code
The developers can put the source in a license that requires all products made with it to be open source. This means whoever writes a version with a virus will be incapable of hiding said virus, as everyone can see their source code.
Additionally, as it is now, most people get their ZC quests from a few well-regulated central sites. These same sites can be trusted to ferret out versions -- the first person to download a viral quest would alert everyone else. A small chance of hitting a single random person is hardly a good payload for a virus maker -- you'd get better results emailing it to random people.
Concerns of viruses are far overblown -- if you're getting programs from a trustworthy website, there's virtually no risk of viruses from downloads. You're more likely to pick up viruses by just using Internet Explorer for normal browsing.
I'd like to re-iterate that in the community I'm a part of, we download and run eachother's programs all the time, many of them without even the assurance provided by open source, and we have never had a virus problem.

--Incompatable quests
Yes, quests will be incompatable with versions of ZC they're not designed for. Just run the quest with the vanilla ZC available on the main webpage or with the ZC that came with it, and you don't have anything to worry about.

--Theft
Yes, someone might try it. They might even fool a dozen people into thinking "Zelda Kwest" was entirely their creation. Then one of them would stumble on Zelda Quest's page, notice that it existed much longer, and start asking questions, and it'd all be over.
In that community I've mentioned, I've only seen people attempt to steal eachother's work twice, and both times were met almost immediately with the theif being caught, criticized, ostricized, and banned.

--Nintendo will eat you
Nintendo doesn't care about fan projects unless they use so much of Nintendo's content that people will use your fan project instead of Nintendo's product, or they try to make money off it.
Going open source isn't going to magically make you start trying to sell ZC, don't worry. And while going open source will accelerate the pace of development, it won't do so to such a point that people can start cloning the latest Zelda game so well that they're competing with Nintendo.
If you do somehow manage to get ZC so developed that it competes with the current Zelda game (that's Wind Waker or Twilight Princess at the moment, both far cries from ZC's late NES-era graphics), I'll buy you a pony.

--People pretending to be Nintendo will eat you
Yes, people pretending to be Nintendo will try to get you to stop, because people are jerks. Whether they do this or not has nothing to do with the project being open source, though, and it's very easy to protect yourself.
Say the developers get a threatening email from someone pretending to be Nintendo. The correct course of action is to ask for it in paper form (real word from Nintendo should come from snail-mail in the first place), as proof that this is the real Nintendo. This will deter most. If the harasser does go on to send the mail, and it's not from Nintendo of America's address, you can call Nintendo's legal department and tell them they're being impersonated. Nintendo will be quite a bit more concerned about stopping this than they will be about stopping your game. The devs are obviously smart, they probably already planned on doing soemthing this if it ever came up.


Thanks for listening. Now please, help support open source ZC!

[gdorf]

I don't see a reason. From what I hear the code is a little unorganized and certainly difficult to add on to. It wasn't written with open-source in mind. I'd much prefer leave it in the hands of people who have earned the right to add on to it.

Also, the idea of fragmentation is very real with ZC. Different groups of people would love to take control of the source. I can only imagine a ZC-AGN, ZC-PZC. and ZC-ZCN. We have enough versions as it is. I quit using ZC when my quest from 1.90 no longer worked in the new versions. :shrug:

I do like the idea of seeing the code someday though, even if I wouldn't have an idea of what to do with it. :thumbsup:

[Freedom]

I'm just curious.
Why is it that it seems to be people that haven't really done anything with Zelda Classic are the ones that come in and start threads wanting it to go open source.
The two in this thread, one has 1 post and the other has 11.
I just seems funny that people that really haven't shown that they even know what it can do are the ones that want to get their fingers in there and "make it better"

Maybe it's just the way I'm looking at it?

I don't know, I just like to build quests, and I trust DN and Jman will make the right choices regarding ZC and it's future, they've been doing pretty good so far.

[Shoelace]

I say it is up to the devolpers. Now me, I am a quest builder too, so I am not that excited for an open source if the program is already there for me to play. However, there are some programmers out there that would be wonders to make the program fit their games.

I say I want it to be left the way it is, only chosen programers can make ZC, however, you never know in the future. Also welcome to the site guys, and please enjoy posting. :P

[Zenphobia]

I'm just curious.
Why is it that it seems to be people that haven't really done anything with Zelda Classic are the ones that come in and start threads wanting it to go open source.
The two in this thread, one has 1 post and the other has 11.
I just seems funny that people that really haven't shown that they even know what it can do are the ones that want to get their fingers in there and "make it better"

Just because I haven't posted here a lot doesn't mean I haven't worked with the program and know its strengths, its weaknesses, and at least an idea of its potential. If that makes my opinion less valid, well, I suppose that's fair. But, let me re-emphasize one thing before I go on:

I love Zelda Classic and have a great amount of respect for the developers and testers. They have created a phenominal program, which is a selfless service to the Zelda community. My respect and admiration will not diminish because they choose not to share their work.

However, I think we can all agree that ZC has only begun to tap the vast amount of potential that lies within both the Zelda games and the Zelda community. Open sourcing would just allow extra creative minds to tinker with it.

[Freedom]

Reading back over my response, it sounds a little rude, for that I apologize.
It was really meant to be a question, which you didn't answer. ;)

[Zenphobia]

Grammatically, the only question you ask is a rhetorical one. If you would like to pose a question directly to me, feel free.

[ZTC]

Personally, I'd like to see ZC's source stay closed. It enables them to work out the kinks/bugs, and work with it without any outside trouble. If it went open source, I could forsee a disaster happening to ZC. I'm not saying that it would definitely happen, but there's always the possibility.
And I agree with Freedom that the devs are and will be making the right choices for ZC.

[Freedom]

The question being; if you're interested in the project, why haven't you made it a point to join in on the fun earlier and become a part of it, itstead of asking for it to just be handed over at this stage.

It's Kind of like what happens in the suggestions forum, someone will come along and before they even know what the program can do they're suggesting things be added that have been being done in quests, sometimes years before.

It's none of my business anyway, one way or the other, like I said before, I just like building quests, what direction ZC takes, it will take regardless of me.

[Zenphobia]

I've actually been following Zelda Classic for a few months, if you don't believe me, check out my blog (notice the October date):

http://rumorsofmydemise.blogspot.com/2005/10/fan-freedom-creative-expression.html

Last paragraph if you don't feel like reading it all.

I'm not saying I'm a master at using, far from it. I still have quite a bit to learn before I'm comfortable releasing a quest. Anyways, if you read back over the thread, my primary focus for open sourcing is multiplayer. Apparently, according to the website, a multiplayer feature is part of the plan anyways, my suggestion for open sourcing would merely speed that up.

Look under future plans:

Make it easier to create group quests (quests with multiple authors)
Multiplayer/deathmatch feature
Fix swimming in BS-Style animation

[ZTC]

I do not mean to be cynical, but how exactly would that speed it up?

[Zenphobia]

More people working on a project generally means it will progress faster.

While I'm not a master programmer, I have experience with RunUO, which was originally designed to allow fan run Ultima Online servers, which I did for 6 months, working on other servers intermittently before and after. When RunUO was first released, (http://www.runuo.com), the core wasn't open source, but all the files that corresponded to skill gain, monsters, etc etc were. With somewhat limited control over the game, fans made huge changes to UO, some so drastic that it hardly resembled the original Ultima. When RunUO released the core, a little over 2 years ago, fans of the system finally had the ability to modify the guts if they so desired. For the most part, tweaks have been minor and most of them kept private. Then I saw this:

https://www.hostilespace.com/ (IE only which sucks).

If you're unfamiliar with what Ultima Online looks like, look at this:

http://www.uo.com/ageofshadows/images/guildbattle.jpg

Hostile Space is built on a heavily modified RunUO core, what was originally Ultima Online, a game focused on killing monsters and collecting loot, was morphed into a game about commanding star ships and exploring a galaxy. As soon as I saw Hostile Space, I instantly thought of Zelda Classic.

So, I ran here, well, I guess it would be an E-run, which is characterized by frantic clicking and typing, to start sharing the idea. Using my experience with open source software (mainly RunUO), I gathered that open sourcing, which allows many programmers to work at once, would probably be the fastest way for a vision like this to be realized. If the developers of ZC want to create a Zelda (or "esque" if copyright infringement is feared) MMO solo, that's fine, I will gladly wait for it and offer my written support.

Or if they choose not to release the source and not persue a multiplayer or MMO angle, that's fine too. It's their property and they're allowed to do what they want with it. But, I can still beg and make suggestions.

[Nimono]

More people working on a project generally means it will progress faster.

While I'm not master programmer, I have experience with RunUO, which was originally designed to allow fan run Ultima Online servers, which I did for 6 months, working on other servers intermittently before and after. When RunUO was first released, (http://ww.runuo.com), the core wasn't open source, but all the files that corresponded to skill gain, monsters, etc etc were. With somewhat limited control over the game, fans made huge changes to UO, some so drastic that it hardly resembled the original Ultima. When RunUO released the core, a little over 2 years ago, fans finally of the system finally had the ability to modify the guts if they so desired. For the most part, tweaks have been minor and most of them kept private. Then I saw this:

https://www.hostilespace.com/ (IE only which sucks).

If you're unfamiliar with what Ultima Online looks like, look at this:

http://www.uo.com/ageofshadows/images/guildbattle.jpg

Hostile Space is built on a heavily modified RunUO core, what was originally Ultima Online, a game focused on killing monsters and collecting loot, was morphed into a game about commanding star ships and exploring a galaxy. As soon as I saw Hostile Space, I instantly thought of Zelda Classic.

So, I ran here, well, I guess it would be an E-run, which is characterized by frantic clicking and typing, to start sharing the idea. Using my experience with open source software (mainly RunUO), I gathered that open sourcing, which allows many programmers to work at once, would probably be the fastest way for a vision like this to be realized. If the developers of ZC want to create a Zelda (or "esque" if copyright infringement is feared) MMO solo, that's fine, I will gladly wait for it and offer my written support.

Or if they choose not to release the source and not persue a multiplayer or MMO angle, that's fine too. It's their property and they're allowed to do what they want with it. But, I can still beg and make suggestions.
WOAH. Now THAT is interesting.

[jman2050]

I'll just say preemptively to lay off Zenphobia. He speaks good things, even if they neccesarily won't be applied.

[Zenphobia]

Thank you Jman, I am honored by your defence.

Open Source debate aside, since I think we've exhausted that angle, would anyone be interested in a Zelda style MMO?

[Rakki]

Open Source debate aside, since I think we've exhausted that angle, would anyone be interested in a Zelda style MMO?
Technically, it already exists. Graal Online is an MMORPG that looks and plays somewhat like ALttP. In fact, the original levels saved with Graal were .zelda files. :p Now I would like to see multiplayer as a possibility (for Four Swords-esque quests), but I'm not sure about a ZC MMO.

[Dart Zaidyer]

Open Source debate aside, since I think we've exhausted that angle, would anyone be interested in a Zelda style MMO?
Technically, it already exists. Graal Online *redacted*

Let's rephrase the question: who wants to see a good Zelda MMO that isn't run by the kind of idiots I just described in my earlier post?

[*b*]

Let's rephrase the question: who wants to see a good Zelda MMO that isn't run by the kind of idiots I just described in my earlier post?
and ISN'T Four Swords based? I do! I do!

[Zenphobia]

Graal looks pretty crappy...

I think the first change that would have to be made, if ALTTP was made into an MMO, is the camera system. Instead of following link on a panel to panel basis it would have to to be attached to his head (I forget the term for this) and move everytime he moves.

That would make the world a lot more fluid and also prevent screen jumping in PvP.

[ZTC]

I'm for a good online Zelda game. I'd like to see that kind of project realized.

[Nimono]

Graal looks pretty crappy...

I think the first change that would have to be made, if ALTTP was made into an MMO, is the camera system. Instead of following link on a panel to panel basis it would have to to be attached to his head (I forget the term for this) and move everytime he moves.

That would make the world a lot more fluid and also prevent screen jumping in PvP.
First-Person is what I think it is. That's where you can see the game" through the character's eyes".

[Zenphobia]

I know what first person is, and it's not what I meant. :)

The view would still be top down. Let me think how I explain this...

Okay, ZC maps are composed of panels. The top down camera only moves when Link moves from one panel to another. As long as link stays on that panel, he could be all the way at the edge of the screen and the camera wouldn't move.

The camera system I'm talking about would eliminate the panel shifting. Instead, Link would always be in the center of the screen. No matter where he moved on the map, he would always be in the center of the screen because the camera moves with him each and every step he takes.

Maybe this video of UO will help, you don't need to watch all of it, just watch how the camera follows the character:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6166470585612374674&q=ultima+online

[Nimono]

I know what first person is, and it's not what I meant. :)

The view would still be top down. Let me think how I explain this...

Okay, ZC maps are composed of panels. The top down camera only moves when Link moves from one panel to another. As long as link stays on that panel, he could be all the way at the edge of the screen and the camera wouldn't move.

The camera system I'm talking about would eliminate the panel shifting. Instead, Link would always be in the center of the screen. No matter where he moved on the map, he would always be in the center of the screen because the camera moves with him each and every step he takes.

Maybe this video of UO will help, you don't need to watch all of it, just watch how the camera follows the character:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6166470585612374674&q=ultima+online
Oh, you mean like the scrolling in ALttP, right? (Even though when you reach the edge of a screen, the screen stops scrolling.)

[Zenphobia]

Yeah, for it to be a nice fluid MMO screen changes would need to be eliminated almost completely (minus entering dungeons and similar areas that is).

[Nimono]

Yeah, for it to be a nice fluid MMO screen changes would need to be eliminated almost completely (minus entering dungeons and similar areas that is).
Oh, and I'm curious, what does MMO stand for?

[Zenphobia]

Massively Multi-player online. The acronym standard used to be MMORPG (massive multi-player online role playing game), but the point of using an acronym is because it's short. ;)

So if Zelda was turned into an MMO, it would be like a self-contained world. What makes MMOs cool is that the world is always there. When a player logs off, the world is still going and still being impacted by other players that are also logging in and out. Some MMOs have thousands of players logged in at any given time. The largest number I've seen on a free, fan made MMO server was in the 700s (a rare occurence indeed).

Some of the more famous MMOs are: Everquest, Ultima Online, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy Online, and Star Wars Galaxies.

[Rydia]

Ok, I'm just gonna make a quick note for you guys. Let's say that ZC/ZQ was made open source. And 100 people do what they want with the program to add what they want. Person 25 makes some major changes, and makes it more like a GB style Zelda, and person 73 makes a ton of minor changes and everything. A person would make a quest with person 25's, and then someone else would try to play it on person 73's, and it wouldn't work. I personally wouldn't like to have 100+ ZC/ZQ's on my computer, so I think Open Source shouldn't happen.

[vegeta1215]

From a discussion we had last summer on the same subject: (I'm copying my own posts because I think fewer people would read them if I just linked them)



Originally Posted by Dark Nation
I'm *SERIOUSLY* considering going open source. Definitely have to talk to PM and WL first. It would cause development speed to skyrocket, but there would be no more security on quests.

Thoughts?
Would it cause development to skyrocket? Certainly open source allows the possibilty, but there's no guarantee. First you have to spark people's interest, second, those interested have to become familiar with the code and what it's doing, and that takes some time. ZSNES's development skyrocketed after it went open source, but only because they got one really really good developer. (Nach, in case you follow ZSNES development) But it's not the same for every open source project.

Making ZC open source could help in many ways, but I wouldn't want it to branch out into other versions. Plus, if ZC became open source, it could be included in Linux distros and other products, possibly drawing more attention to ZC.

Another thought I had: open-sourcing ZC MAY speed up the development, but there are obstacles too. One of them is handling the influx of people we would probably get. Would the staff already in place be able to handle it? And are they dedicated enough to handle it? I say this because many of the bug report/forum sections of projects I've read on sourceforge have an enormous amount of activity that requires a lot of community effort.

[Rakki]

While I agree that Graal sucks anymore (believe it or not, there WAS a time that it was good), I don't think the shifting screens system that it uses should be eliminated. After all, another MMO, Ragnarok Online, uses screens, and it works out fine. That's not to say that I think the LoZ screen size should be used for each screen, as we'd be waiting for screens to load every few seconds, but I don't see the NEED for a fluid overworld like that. At least, not if it's going to be 2-D. I could see a 3-D Zelda MMO using that kind of overworld, simply because that is the kind of world used in the 3-D Zeldas.

[Zenphobia]

If there's any pvp at all in the game, the shifting screens would need to be eliminated.

Why? It'd be pretty easy to keep jumping over that line that divides screens to avoid an attack. That sort of defence would not make sense if the goal of the project is to recreate the Zelda world.

[Rakki]

If there's any pvp at all in the game, the shifting screens would need to be eliminated.

Why? It'd be pretty easy to keep jumping over that line that divides screens to avoid an attack. That sort of defence would not make sense if the goal of the project is to recreate the Zelda world.
Heh, you'd think that provides a defence, but it doesn't. :p If a player is really determined to kill another player, they WILL do it, reguardless of what defence their prey has. Although, I don't get what you mean when you say that that sort of defence wouldn't make sense if the goal was to recreate the Zelda world. How do divided screens not make sense in a Zelda game? Specifically, in a 2-D Zelda?

Speaking of PVP, though, I'd like to see areas set aside especially for that. Why? Because when PVP is enabled everywhere, jerk losers who can't take on people as powerful as them go slaying newbies left and right. At least, that's what always happened on Graal. I know this doesn't have the same following as that, but I wouldn't be surprised if the result was the same if PVP was enabled everywhere.

Anywho, I think we're kind of going off topic talking about multiplayer here (even though it was part of the reason for open sourcing ZC). I really don't have more to say on open sourcing the code, so I don't think I'll post here again.

[Zenphobia]

Heh, you'd think that provides a defence, but it doesn't. If a player is really determined to kill another player, they WILL do it, reguardless of what defence their prey has. Although, I don't get what you mean when you say that that sort of defence wouldn't make sense if the goal was to recreate the Zelda world. How do divided screens not make sense in a Zelda game? Specifically, in a 2-D Zelda?

MMOs are designed to be worlds, not 900 panels that represent a world. I think as long as the graphics and basic mechanics are Zelda style, it would be a good MMO. Just out of curiousity, have you pvped in an MMO where a player could jump in and out of like a dungeon entrance or across a server line? Such a tactic is hardly natural, or fun for that matter.


Speaking of PVP, though, I'd like to see areas set aside especially for that. Why? Because when PVP is enabled everywhere, jerk losers who can't take on people as powerful as them go slaying newbies left and right. At least, that's what always happened on Graal. I know this doesn't have the same following as that, but I wouldn't be surprised if the result was the same if PVP was enabled everywhere.

I was thinking something like the LTTP light and dark worlds. The light world is no pvp, the dark world is pvp enabled. Ultima Online adopted a similar system around the year 2000.

[DarkDragon]

I apologize for gravedigging this thread, but I believe this discussion is still relevant, and would like to rekindle the topic.

I'm all for ZC going open source, for two major reasons:

1. Speed up development. Yes, as Vegeta has pointed out, I understand that not all projects experience skyrocketing development after opening their source, but as I see it, ZC development would certainly be no slower with open source than closed source: DN could, if he so desired, continue developing the main branch of ZC by himself and ignore all input from the community, and the current development status quo would be maintained. The potential benefits, on the other hand, are huge: suppose, for instance, that ZC's source were opened, with DN maintaining the main branch and accepting patches from the public only in the following limited way, as is currently being done for Mozilla:
Whenever a beta tester finds a bug, the bug is posted in the beta bug report forum. Instead of having to wait for one of the developers to have enough free time out of their very busy lives to fix the bug (which is and has been the development bottleneck of ZC for years now), any interested party could read the bug report, write a patch addressing the bug, and submit the patch for approval, perhaps in the very same thread. Beta testers could verify that the patch did indeed fix the bug, without introducing any new ones, and the patch would then be submitted to the developers for approval and merger.
Even allowing only giving the public this very limited influence over the project code would monumentally decrease the average development time of the betas.

2. Allow forks of the project. Several people in this thread have discussed hopes of making ZC multiplayer; why not let them try? Sure, compatibility is a true complication, but let's consider the possibilities -
- someone forks a version of ZC which few people use. There is hence no compatibility problem.
- someone forks a version of ZC which many people use. With no offense to the current developers, if someone can modify ZC in a way preferred by the majority of the community, I don't see how direct competition with the main branch is a Bad Thing.

Lastly, I would like to say some words about one of the concerns that has been voiced with making ZC open source: that of quest security. Communications I've had with FCF a while back lead me to believe that the recent versions of ZC store quest passwords only as MD5 hashes, so opening the source would not pose any risk of exposing any modern quest's password. Since ZC must obviously decrypt a quest to play it, yes, opening the source would remove security from the quest itself - but, while I admire the many hours quest-makers have devoted to crafting their quests, I feel paranoia over quest plagiarism is not a reasonable argument against opening the source. Once a quest is released there can be little doubt about its authorship, and even if a beta-tester goes rogue and steals a quest, other beta-testers could and probably would vouch for the original author. Very few other creative mediums have the luxury of the protection ZC currently offers, and blatant thievery is rarely a problem. It is also worth noting that security through obscurity is never sound policy, and that even today no quest is truly secure - any decent programmer with a kernel-level debugger such a softice can already reverse-engineer ZC's quest file decryption and steal a quest.

[Dark Nation]

War Lord and Phantom Menace have the final word on Open Source Zelda Classic, regardless of what the developers may or may not wish to do. That was part of the agreement when we signed on. Do I want ZC to go Open Source? I haven't given it much thought as both of the aforementioned people have said 'no' in the past, which has been good enough for me.

[Nicholas Steel]

i would save such drastic actions for when this program has like no limitations at all.... (keep it closed)

[DarkDragon]

What do you mean by limitations?

DN: Of course. I didn't know they'd already been consulted.

[Nicholas Steel]

what i mean is keep it closed till the editor can edit everything related to LOZ. (enemies, npc's etc.)

(edit: the ability to adjust settings for stuff to such an insane degree that allows users to input (virtualy) whatever stuff they want into there quests)

[DarkDragon]

I'm still not sure I understand. How would opening the source retard the development of an enemy editor?

[Nicholas Steel]

progress and quest creators of this is going well wouldnt you agree? and changing to open source will drastcaly change how stuff is done... nothing will be the same... i like originality rather then having everything everything else has.